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On December 16 2013 08:13 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2013 03:10 Sein wrote:
When I first started playing WoL beta, I remember using Colossus and thinking "Oh my god! This thing is like War of the Worlds. Look at how much damage this thing does. Awesome!!"
The novelty wore off rather quickly. I feel like it's a unit that portrays Browder's inclination the best: Showy, but terrible for actual gameplay. I wish it would be replaced with a more micro-intensive unit, but I just don't see that happening. one of the people in this thread was talking about how it'd be sweet if they could combine the colossi with the warp prism micro for true massive damage and that it'd be way more fun to watch than in it's current form
In other words:
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Reaver_(StarCraft)
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On December 16 2013 12:15 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2013 01:22 Chaggi wrote:On December 16 2013 01:06 Sabu113 wrote:On December 16 2013 00:11 Chaggi wrote:On December 15 2013 23:54 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 15 2013 23:41 MattD wrote:
People saying that mech still needs buffing simply don't even play the game. Mech vs zerg is very fucking strong, theres a reason goody has like an 80% win rate with it. Blinding cloud is NOT problem, good mech terrans don't die to blinding cloud timings and without it zerg would have 0 chance to win. The main reason people don't want to play mech every game is because it lasts for 4 fucking hours every time but that has nothing to do with balance it's by design and will not change any time soon. So winning $30k+ prizes isn't enough motivation for Korean Terrans to play longer games? Interesting theory. Little known fact, Terrans can actually get by in life by whining so $$$ isn't a motivation. Taeja is just a Protoss/Zerg player in disguise. What do you mean? Terrans are horrible whiners. Hence the myth of the chosen terran player just "being better" than players of other races and the constant refrains about so many nerfs despite being obviously and demonstrably imabalanced and broken at times in SC2's life cycle. Hell if we listened to half the garbage in this thread we would get rid of collosi so there could be a fair fight between marines and gateway units. So silly. Other races start to also win tournaments and suddenly the world has ended. + Show Spoiler + Look. If Naniwa eclipses Stephano, I am all good. We can get rid of warpgate, collosi, oracles and MsCs then.
And you're gonna tell me that early game TvP isn't broken in favor of the Protoss now? And that if anything it should be revenge for the 1/1/1 era and Protoss had to "innovate" past it. Do Protoss players even enjoy using the colossi? It's such a stupidly designed unit that you have to get to stand against the Terran mid game yet is nothing more than an A move unit. If anything Protoss should scream for a redesign of such a vital unit. *rant*
Damn son, if you want people to take you seriously you might cut down on the hyperbole and ad hominems.
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What would you replace the collosus with/how would you redesign it?
I feel like this thread spends too little time speculating on actual solutions, and is just a way to let out ladder frustrations while shouting at David Kim to fix things.
The reaver idea sounds cool, but also hilariously overpowered like most BW units for Sc2.
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On December 16 2013 13:07 Green_25 wrote:
What would you replace the collosus with/how would you redesign it?
I feel like this thread spends too little time speculating on actual solutions, and is just a way to let out ladder frustrations while shouting at David Kim to fix things.
This is not the first thread of its kind. David Kim knows all the complaints, he knows that suggestions exist if he wanted to find them. I don't have any personal favorites. I think that the Reaver's randomness wouldn't go over as well as people expect (basically Widow Mines but worse), but I do like the idea of a totally micro-based heavy hitter (tank/thor/ultralisk equivalent).
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On December 16 2013 13:07 Green_25 wrote:
What would you replace the collosus with/how would you redesign it?
I feel like this thread spends too little time speculating on actual solutions, and is just a way to let out ladder frustrations while shouting at David Kim to fix things.
The reaver idea sounds cool, but also hilariously overpowered like most BW units for Sc2.
Follow the template of AOE units that have proven to be good design in siege tanks, reavers and lurkers: give them a major weakness for example in mobility or set up time that the other player can abuse, but also give them more punch.
Of course the colossus is so integral to protoss armies that changing it and nothing else would be insanity, which is why I think the immortal could be redesigned along with it. A major redesign in how robo tech overall works with LOTV is what I would focus on if I was in the designer chair.
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Am I the only one who thinks the widow mine nerf went too far? Now it seems too easy for the zerg to trade efficiently with just the ling/bling vs bio/mine without even really involving the mutas in the fight. Its far too easy IMO for zergs to build huge muta flocks because of this now, and once the muta count gets up to like 30-35+ its basically gg for the terran. Once there are that many they can take fights with the small defensive groups of marines, or just use their ridiculous speed and regen rate to run away from large groups of rines without losing any, all the while constantly harassing the base and picking things off.
I'm not saying that the nerf should just be completely undone, bc it was clearly broken before in favor of terran. But instead of the current splash system of 40 damage within 1.25, 20 damage from 1.25-1.5, and 10 damage from 1.5-1.75, they should just do 20 damage from 1.25-1.75. Zergs have gotten much better at splitting their ling/bling and sending it in waves instead of one large group, so getting even 2 shots off on the same pack has become more difficult, let alone 4. As it is right now there are not enough rines left over after the banes come through to stand straight up to the mutas and left over lings so they have to retreat and all the mines end up dying..and they take forever to rebuild, meaning the terran has to wait awhile to push again and the muta flock just grows and grows.
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On December 16 2013 12:15 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2013 01:22 Chaggi wrote:On December 16 2013 01:06 Sabu113 wrote:On December 16 2013 00:11 Chaggi wrote:On December 15 2013 23:54 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 15 2013 23:41 MattD wrote:
People saying that mech still needs buffing simply don't even play the game. Mech vs zerg is very fucking strong, theres a reason goody has like an 80% win rate with it. Blinding cloud is NOT problem, good mech terrans don't die to blinding cloud timings and without it zerg would have 0 chance to win. The main reason people don't want to play mech every game is because it lasts for 4 fucking hours every time but that has nothing to do with balance it's by design and will not change any time soon. So winning $30k+ prizes isn't enough motivation for Korean Terrans to play longer games? Interesting theory. Little known fact, Terrans can actually get by in life by whining so $$$ isn't a motivation. Taeja is just a Protoss/Zerg player in disguise. What do you mean? Terrans are horrible whiners. Hence the myth of the chosen terran player just "being better" than players of other races and the constant refrains about so many nerfs despite being obviously and demonstrably imabalanced and broken at times in SC2's life cycle. Hell if we listened to half the garbage in this thread we would get rid of collosi so there could be a fair fight between marines and gateway units. So silly. Other races start to also win tournaments and suddenly the world has ended. + Show Spoiler + Look. If Naniwa eclipses Stephano, I am all good. We can get rid of warpgate, collosi, oracles and MsCs then.
And you're gonna tell me that early game TvP isn't broken in favor of the Protoss now? And that if anything it should be revenge for the 1/1/1 era and Protoss had to "innovate" past it. Do Protoss players even enjoy using the colossi? It's such a stupidly designed unit that you have to get to stand against the Terran mid game yet is nothing more than an A move unit. If anything Protoss should scream for a redesign of such a vital unit. Early game is stupid- but it was also pretty dumb in WoL (I don't know how squirtle holds that 2rax by MvP and I do think we should have seen more of that sort of cheese). [Also this a big point in the inane fallacy that you can't call something stupid early on. The core was obviously terrible in beta but by that I suppose it was too late to actually work on the game.] Funny you mention the 1/1/1 era... Teaja just won a tournament didn't he.. what Dreamhack? Oh. And the protoss who have been winning randos just like when Aliv- Wait Dear and Rain? Oh. (ok ok MC did give Puma a good run for his money both at IEM and NASL finals even if he was robbed.) And yeah there have been a thousand protoss threads for redesign. Everyone and their mother wants something like a reaver that we can drop harass with. That would make me so happy. Soooo happy. It was one of my favorite things ever to watch whether it worked or not. Among lots of other things. As much as I would mock Rabiator, I do agree with a lot of his points. But would a reaver work? Vikings and marauders will end that dream- if the reaver doesn't absolutely devour the marines before that point. What then- a protoss siege tank? Yeah because the super immobile army needs to be even slower. (Hydras=Zealot speed. HTs 1.85 move speed. Hence the need for recall to prevent every situation from being all in.) What terrans just want a late game mech option? I honestly doubt people have the patience to play something as fragile as classic Mech and in sc2 all that means is high damage tanks with beefier marines (or monstrosities like the WarHound that should have gotten someone fired). But that would add so much skill to the "a-move" race right? It's complete myopia to not see a stimmed amove ball of bio any better. What you click back and forth really quickly? Oh that took a lot of thought and skill. Good thing I can't do anything to counter act it but throw more economy at it. What oh a free boost so that my drops are riskless. Fantastic design decision. Or the crap about how sc2 TvT is the height of perfection. Bleh. Same with the current whine, the reason why terran players want the collosi gone is fundamentally because it actually is effective against the bio ball. Not game design, their ladder points (and we see that repeatedly through the thread. "What about the ladder fan!"). Same with all the bitching about storm from time to time. How the hell you expect protoss to ever be competitive I don't know but then it's not your concern is it. An even handed approach here would be to take the same pace they took to fixing the 1/1/1 and give terrans 6 months to adapt to it. Normal winrates are definitely a big shock after early HoTS. Just a touch bitter no one else complained about the balance and design when there were other obvious problems with the game. Little sympathy now when the complaints are just as shallow. + Show Spoiler +Ok to be a little positive, I would take a reduction in the MsC duration, in exchange for the ability to perfectly kite stalkers. Someone tweaked WoL so that the firing animation was faster so you could flawlessly micro stalkers earlier on. Hopefully this works with ZvP and it should offer a better option to deal with the dynamics between small marine balls and gateway units. I want this possible:
I complain about Protoss cause of two reasons, and 1 is incredibly biased towards my own views.
1) I hate how TvP works on the pro level. It's boring to watch from a Terran PoV. Oh cool, the Protoss is gonna do another all in and then be safe against counter attacks cause MSC is really really good. I've never seen a good cheese or all in pre mediavc from Terran since HoTS came out, and even old tank timings are dead cause of the Nexus Cannon. A lot of variety is gone from the Terran PoV
2) The biased view of mine which is my own games. I'm an awful player, I hit mid masters on NA and I can't break out of Diamond on KR for the life of me. I think I'll get demoted again this season when I boot it up after work. TvT/TvZ are fun MU's. TvP isn't. I have a bad win record in TvP, but when I lose, it's cause I didn't scout something or didn't notice that Protoss had this or this tip off. And when I see an all in coming, I put my bunkers/turrets up, take some damage, but not game ending, and I try and go punish and I run into a Nexus Cannon. I don't want to play every TvP out to 15+ minutes. I enjoy the back and forth type of games but because I'm awful, I don't really succeed.
I don't really care about if I win or lose against Toss. It really doesn't matter to me as long as I perceive that it's fair for both sides. When I view a unit like the colossi, which is really really strong, but is really nothing but A move, you have to wonder how much "skill" (and I judge skill in mechanical skill more than strategical skill) is involved in using a unit like that. I don't think it really takes much strategy, or mechanics to use that at a lower level. I don't understand why the only draw back to a siege unit like the Colossi is that it gets hit by air. Why doesn't it have a siege time? Why isn't it ungodly slow so it can pair up with a Warp Prism? I want Protoss to micro just as hard as I am, even if it's "easy" stutter step micro. I want depth to the race so that Gateway and WarpGate can be used. Part of me wants other races to experience the initial macro requirement of always building stuff that Terrans have to do, and choosing addons for the right situations. But that also adds depth. When MKP (I think it was him?) brought the style of 2 reactor/1 tech lab vs a 2 tech lab/1 reactor style opening to TvP, it really changed how people approached the MU, even for a bit. That was really really awesome because even if the flow of the MU didn't change (there was still a 10 minute medivac push with +1 timing etc), it changed how Terrans were pushing at the Protoss.
People can pick apart why I don't like Protoss, or why facing Protoss is stupid cause of this and this balance reason. I don't care about any of that cause it doesn't affect me. It's simply not fun to go against Protoss, and I don't think the units are well designed. I don't think the design team knows what they're doing and it's frustrating cause this is a game series I've been playing since the original.
The most frustrating thing as a Terran player to see from a Protoss player when we're arguing about TvP is that they go back to the days when Terran dominated GomTvT, and 1/1/1 was stupid good, and reapers etc etc and they somehow use that time to justify that it's okay for Protoss to be really damn good now. Well, I don't mind if Protoss is good. Protoss being good is great for the game. Dear is a great Protoss to watch.
But ultimately, when you look at BW, what made it the success that it is? It surely wasn't Protoss/Terran/Zerg having equal win rates. Did Protoss ever have anyone they could call a bonjwa while Terran had many? Compared to other races, Protoss wasn't winning everything, and that's okay cause it was a FUN game to watch that required easily noticeable skill from both sides, no matter what MU, to win. That's why I think a lot of Terrans complain about TvP. Cause sure, we may not understand everything about the race, but from our PoV, it just doesn't seem fair. Protoss can argue that every which way but watching a seemingly a-moved Protoss army (which I'm sure has a lot more than just a-move) into a Terran army that's dropping, stutter stepping and macro'ing. Is that really fun?
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On December 16 2013 14:47 Survivor61316 wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks the widow mine nerf went too far? Now it seems too easy for the zerg to trade efficiently with just the ling/bling vs bio/mine without even really involving the mutas in the fight. Its far too easy IMO for zergs to build huge muta flocks because of this now, and once the muta count gets up to like 30-35+ its basically gg for the terran. Once there are that many they can take fights with the small defensive groups of marines, or just use their ridiculous speed and regen rate to run away from large groups of rines without losing any, all the while constantly harassing the base and picking things off.
I'm not saying that the nerf should just be completely undone, bc it was clearly broken before in favor of terran. But instead of the current splash system of 40 damage within 1.25, 20 damage from 1.25-1.5, and 10 damage from 1.5-1.75, they should just do 20 damage from 1.25-1.75. Zergs have gotten much better at splitting their ling/bling and sending it in waves instead of one large group, so getting even 2 shots off on the same pack has become more difficult, let alone 4. As it is right now there are not enough rines left over after the banes come through to stand straight up to the mutas and left over lings so they have to retreat and all the mines end up dying..and they take forever to rebuild, meaning the terran has to wait awhile to push again and the muta flock just grows and grows.
If you look at the win rates, Terran vs Zerg before the patch was roughly about equal. I'd agree with the notion that it was very stale, and that there was no really other way to play the MU. I don't think the nerf should've gone through, and some change to the tank should've to make it more viable in a TvZ setting.
On December 16 2013 03:10 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2013 23:16 Chaggi wrote:On December 15 2013 23:08 Big J wrote:On December 15 2013 22:52 Chaggi wrote:On December 15 2013 22:36 Big J wrote:On December 15 2013 20:52 Chaggi wrote:
I still don't understand why the changes last patch were made, like any of them. None of them really affected the MU's that they were supposed to, and it felt pretty obvious that they weren't going to. Every MU was balanced when looking at a win rate standpoint and while there was always a problem with TvP early game, the patch did nothing to help that. It's cool to have combined ground/air attacks, but did it really promote Mech play? Did the tank changes really bring about a mech renaissance and a presence in TvZ? I don't think I've seen ANY top level Terran beyond Bomber using tanks for timings that actually used tanks in TvZ cause mines are just that much better for how current TvZ is played. It's not like this wasn't something figured out at all either, all of this was throughly explained through so many threads on TL/Reddit. It's times like this where I wonder if Blizzard really knows what they're doing. Just that we have seen an increase of Mechplay in TvZ by a few thousand percent since the patch... Mvp, Maru, jjakji(?) all were somewhat successful with it in TvZ. No we are not seeing "everybody playing it all the time", but it was a quite successful buff in the right direction. The roach buff has seen a few nice applications (mostly in PvZ) and is a really nice tweak that does not break anything. It's comments like this where I wonder why people comment on balance when they are not watching games. Mech play hasn't really gone up for people that hasn't used mech. Neither has tank play really replaced WM play which is the intended purpose of the change. It's comments like these that make me wonder if you're arguing for the sake of arguing. I'm gonna go with a yes. edit: ^ what he said That's what you said. I don't think I've seen ANY top level Terran beyond Bomber using tanks for timings that actually used tanks in TvZ cause mines are just that much better for how current TvZ is played. I gave examples why your comment is out of place, since there are people using it successfully. The "intention" of the patch was not that the tank replaces the mine. It was - to buff Mech and thus increase variety (achieved) - to have tanks being used besides mines (not achieved and probably not achievable outside of Mech since they overlap) On December 15 2013 22:48 TheDwf wrote:On December 15 2013 22:36 Big J wrote:On December 15 2013 20:52 Chaggi wrote:
I still don't understand why the changes last patch were made, like any of them. None of them really affected the MU's that they were supposed to, and it felt pretty obvious that they weren't going to. Every MU was balanced when looking at a win rate standpoint and while there was always a problem with TvP early game, the patch did nothing to help that. It's cool to have combined ground/air attacks, but did it really promote Mech play? Did the tank changes really bring about a mech renaissance and a presence in TvZ? I don't think I've seen ANY top level Terran beyond Bomber using tanks for timings that actually used tanks in TvZ cause mines are just that much better for how current TvZ is played. It's not like this wasn't something figured out at all either, all of this was throughly explained through so many threads on TL/Reddit. It's times like this where I wonder if Blizzard really knows what they're doing. Just that we have seen an increase of Mechplay in TvZ by a few thousand percent since the patch... Mvp, Maru, jjakji(?) all were somewhat successful with it in TvZ. No we are not seeing "everybody playing it all the time", but it was a quite successful buff in the right direction. The roach buff has seen a few nice applications (mostly in PvZ) and is a really nice tweak that does not break anything. It's comments like this where I wonder why people comment on balance when they are not watching games. Thing is, those mech users—Mvp, Maru, probably Flash—were already using mech before. Don't remember jjakji playing mech vs Zerg. TaeJa played one mech game vs Scarlett at HSC8 (Polar Night) but won with his Hellions/Banshees harass. Bogus played one mech game vs Jaedong at DH Winter. And from memory, none of those mech wins featured any Swarm host... Well, the usage of Mech has hugely increased. It's not as stable as bio, but the patch really helped and goes in the right direction. That's all I was saying. No need to put it like Chaggi and pretend everything about the patch was wrong when it actually has some very visual positive results. I mean unless you are so delusional and think that you could have repaired Mech with a single change in TvZ, the results are as good as they can be given how small those two changes are. People have been using Mech "successfully" without the patch. That's the point and the problem. I believe David Kim said the reason for the WM nerf was We'd like to push out the Widow Mine a little bit and bump up the Siege Tank so that bio play becomes more interesting. Ultimately, we believe a mix of Widow Mines and Siege Tanks with your bio army will be a lot more fun to watch than just Widow Mines with bio alone. Have we seen any of that? (The answer you're looking for is no, but the one you want to answer with is yes, but you don't watch enough games Chaggi). If we really saw a push for mech to be better, why make such a DRASTIC CHANGE as tank firing speed from 3.0 to 2.7 (oh wait it's 2.8 now) while nerfing one of the main units of 4M? Just a strawman. I already said that this one didn't work out... But this one: Show nested quote +Mech ground and air attack upgrades combined
We've been looking at this for a long time now, and it feels like a solid step in the right direction. worked out. And that's what I was talking about all along, since you said: Show nested quote +I still don't understand why the changes last patch were made, like any of them. (and similar things in the first quoted post) Show nested quote +On December 15 2013 23:22 TheDwf wrote:On December 15 2013 23:08 Big J wrote:
Well, the usage of Mech has hugely increased. It's not as stable as bio, but the patch really helped and goes in the right direction. That's all I was saying. No need to put it like Chaggi and pretend everything about the patch was wrong when it actually has some very visual positive results. I mean unless one isso delusional and thinks that Mech could have been repaired Mech with a single change in TvZ, the results are as good as they can be given how small those two changes are. Hugely? No, I would say "slightly". And a simple change, suggested by so many people, like Blinding Cloud reducing the range of units under its effect by 5-6, would already result in way more mech play in TvZ than a 3.0 → 2.8 attack speed or merged upgrades. Well, relatively to before it has hugely increased, that's what I meant. In absolute numbers it's still very rare.
I just want to comment on that last part. I don't think you can just look at the relative numbers and call it a day. A buff should bring about more people to play it, but at a certain level - if Mech is really not used at all, and 1 more person has used it sometimes in TvZ, even if it's relatively a lot more people, absolute numbers can tell the whole story. You may be right in that this could be a sign of things to come, but just from what David Kim says, and the logic that he gives to the entire MU, I don't have much faith in him.
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On December 16 2013 03:10 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2013 23:16 Chaggi wrote:On December 15 2013 23:08 Big J wrote:On December 15 2013 22:52 Chaggi wrote:On December 15 2013 22:36 Big J wrote:On December 15 2013 20:52 Chaggi wrote:
I still don't understand why the changes last patch were made, like any of them. None of them really affected the MU's that they were supposed to, and it felt pretty obvious that they weren't going to. Every MU was balanced when looking at a win rate standpoint and while there was always a problem with TvP early game, the patch did nothing to help that. It's cool to have combined ground/air attacks, but did it really promote Mech play? Did the tank changes really bring about a mech renaissance and a presence in TvZ? I don't think I've seen ANY top level Terran beyond Bomber using tanks for timings that actually used tanks in TvZ cause mines are just that much better for how current TvZ is played. It's not like this wasn't something figured out at all either, all of this was throughly explained through so many threads on TL/Reddit. It's times like this where I wonder if Blizzard really knows what they're doing. Just that we have seen an increase of Mechplay in TvZ by a few thousand percent since the patch... Mvp, Maru, jjakji(?) all were somewhat successful with it in TvZ. No we are not seeing "everybody playing it all the time", but it was a quite successful buff in the right direction. The roach buff has seen a few nice applications (mostly in PvZ) and is a really nice tweak that does not break anything. It's comments like this where I wonder why people comment on balance when they are not watching games. Mech play hasn't really gone up for people that hasn't used mech. Neither has tank play really replaced WM play which is the intended purpose of the change. It's comments like these that make me wonder if you're arguing for the sake of arguing. I'm gonna go with a yes. edit: ^ what he said That's what you said. I don't think I've seen ANY top level Terran beyond Bomber using tanks for timings that actually used tanks in TvZ cause mines are just that much better for how current TvZ is played. I gave examples why your comment is out of place, since there are people using it successfully. The "intention" of the patch was not that the tank replaces the mine. It was - to buff Mech and thus increase variety (achieved) - to have tanks being used besides mines (not achieved and probably not achievable outside of Mech since they overlap) On December 15 2013 22:48 TheDwf wrote:On December 15 2013 22:36 Big J wrote:On December 15 2013 20:52 Chaggi wrote:
I still don't understand why the changes last patch were made, like any of them. None of them really affected the MU's that they were supposed to, and it felt pretty obvious that they weren't going to. Every MU was balanced when looking at a win rate standpoint and while there was always a problem with TvP early game, the patch did nothing to help that. It's cool to have combined ground/air attacks, but did it really promote Mech play? Did the tank changes really bring about a mech renaissance and a presence in TvZ? I don't think I've seen ANY top level Terran beyond Bomber using tanks for timings that actually used tanks in TvZ cause mines are just that much better for how current TvZ is played. It's not like this wasn't something figured out at all either, all of this was throughly explained through so many threads on TL/Reddit. It's times like this where I wonder if Blizzard really knows what they're doing. Just that we have seen an increase of Mechplay in TvZ by a few thousand percent since the patch... Mvp, Maru, jjakji(?) all were somewhat successful with it in TvZ. No we are not seeing "everybody playing it all the time", but it was a quite successful buff in the right direction. The roach buff has seen a few nice applications (mostly in PvZ) and is a really nice tweak that does not break anything. It's comments like this where I wonder why people comment on balance when they are not watching games. Thing is, those mech users—Mvp, Maru, probably Flash—were already using mech before. Don't remember jjakji playing mech vs Zerg. TaeJa played one mech game vs Scarlett at HSC8 (Polar Night) but won with his Hellions/Banshees harass. Bogus played one mech game vs Jaedong at DH Winter. And from memory, none of those mech wins featured any Swarm host... Well, the usage of Mech has hugely increased. It's not as stable as bio, but the patch really helped and goes in the right direction. That's all I was saying. No need to put it like Chaggi and pretend everything about the patch was wrong when it actually has some very visual positive results. I mean unless you are so delusional and think that you could have repaired Mech with a single change in TvZ, the results are as good as they can be given how small those two changes are. People have been using Mech "successfully" without the patch. That's the point and the problem. I believe David Kim said the reason for the WM nerf was We'd like to push out the Widow Mine a little bit and bump up the Siege Tank so that bio play becomes more interesting. Ultimately, we believe a mix of Widow Mines and Siege Tanks with your bio army will be a lot more fun to watch than just Widow Mines with bio alone. Have we seen any of that? (The answer you're looking for is no, but the one you want to answer with is yes, but you don't watch enough games Chaggi). If we really saw a push for mech to be better, why make such a DRASTIC CHANGE as tank firing speed from 3.0 to 2.7 (oh wait it's 2.8 now) while nerfing one of the main units of 4M? Just a strawman. I already said that this one didn't work out... But this one: Show nested quote +Mech ground and air attack upgrades combined
We've been looking at this for a long time now, and it feels like a solid step in the right direction. worked out. And that's what I was talking about all along, since you said: Show nested quote +I still don't understand why the changes last patch were made, like any of them. (and similar things in the first quoted post) Show nested quote +On December 15 2013 23:22 TheDwf wrote:On December 15 2013 23:08 Big J wrote:
Well, the usage of Mech has hugely increased. It's not as stable as bio, but the patch really helped and goes in the right direction. That's all I was saying. No need to put it like Chaggi and pretend everything about the patch was wrong when it actually has some very visual positive results. I mean unless one isso delusional and thinks that Mech could have been repaired Mech with a single change in TvZ, the results are as good as they can be given how small those two changes are. Hugely? No, I would say "slightly". And a simple change, suggested by so many people, like Blinding Cloud reducing the range of units under its effect by 5-6, would already result in way more mech play in TvZ than a 3.0 → 2.8 attack speed or merged upgrades. Well, relatively to before it has hugely increased, that's what I meant. In absolute numbers it's still very rare.
I just want to comment on that last part. I don't think you can just look at the relative numbers and call it a day. A buff should bring about more people to play it, but at a certain level - if Mech is really not used at all, and 1 more person has used it sometimes in TvZ, even if it's relatively a lot more people, absolute numbers can tell the whole story. You may be right in that this could be a sign of things to come, but just from what David Kim says, and the logic that he gives to the entire MU, I don't have much faith in him.[/QUOTE]
I didn't call it a day. I said it was a useful buff in the right direction, but we really could not expect that those rather small tweaks would make mech viable on their own. And thus I disapprove pretending they are not useful or stright up bad.
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TvP now feels like ZvT felt at the beginning of wings. In ZvT there were certain things you had to do otherwise you would just die, ie ling speed to shut down reapers, detection and anti air by a certain time to stop banshees and enough to hold off scv pulls. If you got caught pants down you could just die. The oracle heavily restricts terran openings in a similar way to how zergs were restricted. Regardless of balance its just a crappy match up from the sake of diversity.
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On December 16 2013 15:39 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2013 03:10 Big J wrote:On December 15 2013 23:16 Chaggi wrote:On December 15 2013 23:08 Big J wrote:On December 15 2013 22:52 Chaggi wrote:On December 15 2013 22:36 Big J wrote:On December 15 2013 20:52 Chaggi wrote:
I still don't understand why the changes last patch were made, like any of them. None of them really affected the MU's that they were supposed to, and it felt pretty obvious that they weren't going to. Every MU was balanced when looking at a win rate standpoint and while there was always a problem with TvP early game, the patch did nothing to help that. It's cool to have combined ground/air attacks, but did it really promote Mech play? Did the tank changes really bring about a mech renaissance and a presence in TvZ? I don't think I've seen ANY top level Terran beyond Bomber using tanks for timings that actually used tanks in TvZ cause mines are just that much better for how current TvZ is played. It's not like this wasn't something figured out at all either, all of this was throughly explained through so many threads on TL/Reddit. It's times like this where I wonder if Blizzard really knows what they're doing. Just that we have seen an increase of Mechplay in TvZ by a few thousand percent since the patch... Mvp, Maru, jjakji(?) all were somewhat successful with it in TvZ. No we are not seeing "everybody playing it all the time", but it was a quite successful buff in the right direction. The roach buff has seen a few nice applications (mostly in PvZ) and is a really nice tweak that does not break anything. It's comments like this where I wonder why people comment on balance when they are not watching games. Mech play hasn't really gone up for people that hasn't used mech. Neither has tank play really replaced WM play which is the intended purpose of the change. It's comments like these that make me wonder if you're arguing for the sake of arguing. I'm gonna go with a yes. edit: ^ what he said That's what you said. I don't think I've seen ANY top level Terran beyond Bomber using tanks for timings that actually used tanks in TvZ cause mines are just that much better for how current TvZ is played. I gave examples why your comment is out of place, since there are people using it successfully. The "intention" of the patch was not that the tank replaces the mine. It was - to buff Mech and thus increase variety (achieved) - to have tanks being used besides mines (not achieved and probably not achievable outside of Mech since they overlap) On December 15 2013 22:48 TheDwf wrote:On December 15 2013 22:36 Big J wrote:On December 15 2013 20:52 Chaggi wrote:
I still don't understand why the changes last patch were made, like any of them. None of them really affected the MU's that they were supposed to, and it felt pretty obvious that they weren't going to. Every MU was balanced when looking at a win rate standpoint and while there was always a problem with TvP early game, the patch did nothing to help that. It's cool to have combined ground/air attacks, but did it really promote Mech play? Did the tank changes really bring about a mech renaissance and a presence in TvZ? I don't think I've seen ANY top level Terran beyond Bomber using tanks for timings that actually used tanks in TvZ cause mines are just that much better for how current TvZ is played. It's not like this wasn't something figured out at all either, all of this was throughly explained through so many threads on TL/Reddit. It's times like this where I wonder if Blizzard really knows what they're doing. Just that we have seen an increase of Mechplay in TvZ by a few thousand percent since the patch... Mvp, Maru, jjakji(?) all were somewhat successful with it in TvZ. No we are not seeing "everybody playing it all the time", but it was a quite successful buff in the right direction. The roach buff has seen a few nice applications (mostly in PvZ) and is a really nice tweak that does not break anything. It's comments like this where I wonder why people comment on balance when they are not watching games. Thing is, those mech users—Mvp, Maru, probably Flash—were already using mech before. Don't remember jjakji playing mech vs Zerg. TaeJa played one mech game vs Scarlett at HSC8 (Polar Night) but won with his Hellions/Banshees harass. Bogus played one mech game vs Jaedong at DH Winter. And from memory, none of those mech wins featured any Swarm host... Well, the usage of Mech has hugely increased. It's not as stable as bio, but the patch really helped and goes in the right direction. That's all I was saying. No need to put it like Chaggi and pretend everything about the patch was wrong when it actually has some very visual positive results. I mean unless you are so delusional and think that you could have repaired Mech with a single change in TvZ, the results are as good as they can be given how small those two changes are. People have been using Mech "successfully" without the patch. That's the point and the problem. I believe David Kim said the reason for the WM nerf was We'd like to push out the Widow Mine a little bit and bump up the Siege Tank so that bio play becomes more interesting. Ultimately, we believe a mix of Widow Mines and Siege Tanks with your bio army will be a lot more fun to watch than just Widow Mines with bio alone. Have we seen any of that? (The answer you're looking for is no, but the one you want to answer with is yes, but you don't watch enough games Chaggi). If we really saw a push for mech to be better, why make such a DRASTIC CHANGE as tank firing speed from 3.0 to 2.7 (oh wait it's 2.8 now) while nerfing one of the main units of 4M? Just a strawman. I already said that this one didn't work out... But this one: Mech ground and air attack upgrades combined
We've been looking at this for a long time now, and it feels like a solid step in the right direction. worked out. And that's what I was talking about all along, since you said: I still don't understand why the changes last patch were made, like any of them. (and similar things in the first quoted post) On December 15 2013 23:22 TheDwf wrote:On December 15 2013 23:08 Big J wrote:
Well, the usage of Mech has hugely increased. It's not as stable as bio, but the patch really helped and goes in the right direction. That's all I was saying. No need to put it like Chaggi and pretend everything about the patch was wrong when it actually has some very visual positive results. I mean unless one isso delusional and thinks that Mech could have been repaired Mech with a single change in TvZ, the results are as good as they can be given how small those two changes are. Hugely? No, I would say "slightly". And a simple change, suggested by so many people, like Blinding Cloud reducing the range of units under its effect by 5-6, would already result in way more mech play in TvZ than a 3.0 → 2.8 attack speed or merged upgrades. Well, relatively to before it has hugely increased, that's what I meant. In absolute numbers it's still very rare. I just want to comment on that last part. I don't think you can just look at the relative numbers and call it a day. A buff should bring about more people to play it, but at a certain level - if Mech is really not used at all, and 1 more person has used it sometimes in TvZ, even if it's relatively a lot more people, absolute numbers can tell the whole story. You may be right in that this could be a sign of things to come, but just from what David Kim says, and the logic that he gives to the entire MU, I don't have much faith in him.
I didn't call it a day. I said it was a useful buff in the right direction, but we really could not expect that those rather small tweaks would make mech viable on their own. And thus I disapprove pretending they are not useful or stright up bad.[/QUOTE]
If they had looked at all the problems and analysis done by the community of what's wrong with mech, changing weapons was not something that was that high on the list. It might've needed to be done later but there were more pressing, and impactful changes that could be done. The change by itself did virtually nothing. Maybe it'll roll into something, but maybe it won't. I'm not even sure if it was exactly right direction other than that it was a buff (that made not really much of an impact on the diversity of play)
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Northern Ireland25333 Posts
It's not as if good ideas aren't out there, or that a consistent bone of contention among many has been Protoss base design since release.
The dev team don't even need to come up with ideas, just implement some of the better suggestions that float around on here and other community sights.
My mind still boggles that that Oracle change went through, despite many warning that it would make the existing proxy Oracles even stronger. Worse, the dodgy microability of the unit, one of the worst air units in terms of control, hasn't been touched. It's still buggy as hell, Lalulsh showed this pretty clearly in his video on air micro which HAS been brought to the attention of the devs, but no plans exist to implement it.
That's the frustration there. A relatively easy to do tweak to add more controllable air units has been shelved for the foreseeable, so the likelihood of tweaking the economy or warpgate and other big things isnt there.
It wouldn't be so bad but in terms of standardised competitive play there is no alternative to Blizz and their ladder.
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On December 16 2013 16:33 FirstGear wrote:
TvP now feels like ZvT felt at the beginning of wings. In ZvT there were certain things you had to do otherwise you would just die, ie ling speed to shut down reapers, detection and anti air by a certain time to stop banshees and enough to hold off scv pulls. If you got caught pants down you could just die. The oracle heavily restricts terran openings in a similar way to how zergs were restricted. Regardless of balance its just a crappy match up from the sake of diversity.
I agree 100%.
Giving one race decisive advantage in the early game is worst possible thing. One race being slightly favored over another one at certain point is never good but at least mid-late game advantages give you more time for preparation, reacting, give you a chance to outplay your opponent and it doesn't sums up to 1 small mistake ending the game.
Early game defines the rest of the game and current TvP early game puts too much weight on terran's shoulders.
As you said, we had the same thing with terran at WoL release and Blizzard continuously worked on giving other races (mostly zerg) better chances of scouting and preparing for variety of builds terran could throw at them.
If such design was not good then, I don't see how we can accept it now in Hots, 3 years after the game release and after Blizzard already got the chance to learn from their past mistakes.
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What do you guys think about changing snipe from 25+25 psi to 30+20 psi so that ghosts can snipe banelings again? How fucking awesome would that be?
Ghosts are so one dimensional right now.... I mean, a lot of T pros even skip them in TvP because they cost so much (200/100 apiece) and have next to no utility after they either get burned alive by the collossi lasers or insta gibbed by feedbacks...
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Well I think I'm finally switching races..Terran is just too hard to play anymore. TvP is clearly broken, and I feel like TvZ is slowing slipping to favoring the zerg. So I guess its time to learn zerg..I just have too much self-respect to play as a race as broken as toss.
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I'm not normally a balance whiner.. welp mostly because I'm not great at the game and realize that most of the time If i lose its because I simply got outplayed..
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On December 17 2013 15:44 Survivor61316 wrote:
Well I think I'm finally switching races..Terran is just too hard to play anymore. TvP is clearly broken, and I feel like TvZ is slowing slipping to favoring the zerg. So I guess its time to learn zerg..I just have too much self-respect to play as a race as broken as toss.
But not too much self respect to bitch about it on the forums. What a surprise!
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On December 16 2013 21:07 Kyrao wrote:
What do you guys think about changing snipe from 25+25 psi to 30+20 psi so that ghosts can snipe banelings again? How fucking awesome would that be?
Ghosts are so one dimensional right now.... I mean, a lot of T pros even skip them in TvP because they cost so much (200/100 apiece) and have next to no utility after they either get burned alive by the collossi lasers or insta gibbed by feedbacks...
Ghosts are always useful even for EMP alone. 
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On December 17 2013 16:53 darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2013 21:07 Kyrao wrote:
What do you guys think about changing snipe from 25+25 psi to 30+20 psi so that ghosts can snipe banelings again? How fucking awesome would that be?
Ghosts are so one dimensional right now.... I mean, a lot of T pros even skip them in TvP because they cost so much (200/100 apiece) and have next to no utility after they either get burned alive by the collossi lasers or insta gibbed by feedbacks... Ghosts are always useful even for EMP alone.
There is a difference between useful and one dimensional. IE. HTs would be useful even if they just had storm, but having feedback as well gives them more utility. Both snipe and EMP are anti-casters right now.
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On December 17 2013 18:09 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 16:53 darkness wrote:On December 16 2013 21:07 Kyrao wrote:
What do you guys think about changing snipe from 25+25 psi to 30+20 psi so that ghosts can snipe banelings again? How fucking awesome would that be?
Ghosts are so one dimensional right now.... I mean, a lot of T pros even skip them in TvP because they cost so much (200/100 apiece) and have next to no utility after they either get burned alive by the collossi lasers or insta gibbed by feedbacks... Ghosts are always useful even for EMP alone. There is a difference between useful and one dimensional. IE. HTs would be useful even if they just had storm, but having feedback as well gives them more utility. Both snipe and EMP are anti-casters right now.
Also, the fact that once you cast all your energy away, you can morph them into a tanky splash nuker makes them even less one-dimensional... Whereas a ghost does less dps than two stimmed marines (even against light) and costs 200/100 v 50/150 for a HT. Balance.
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EPT
