EPTThey are so damn fast, have regen and from a Protoss perspective unless they really screw up, only one sort of viable counter in the Phoenix. And the Phoenix is FAR too good vs Mutas. It's a mess really
Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 836
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25342 Posts
They are so damn fast, have regen and from a Protoss perspective unless they really screw up, only one sort of viable counter in the Phoenix. And the Phoenix is FAR too good vs Mutas. It's a mess really | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 15 2013 20:52 Chaggi wrote: I still don't understand why the changes last patch were made, like any of them. None of them really affected the MU's that they were supposed to, and it felt pretty obvious that they weren't going to. Every MU was balanced when looking at a win rate standpoint and while there was always a problem with TvP early game, the patch did nothing to help that. It's cool to have combined ground/air attacks, but did it really promote Mech play? Did the tank changes really bring about a mech renaissance and a presence in TvZ? I don't think I've seen ANY top level Terran beyond Bomber using tanks for timings that actually used tanks in TvZ cause mines are just that much better for how current TvZ is played. It's not like this wasn't something figured out at all either, all of this was throughly explained through so many threads on TL/Reddit. It's times like this where I wonder if Blizzard really knows what they're doing. Just that we have seen an increase of Mechplay in TvZ by a few thousand percent since the patch... Mvp, Maru, jjakji(?) all were somewhat successful with it in TvZ. No we are not seeing "everybody playing it all the time", but it was a quite successful buff in the right direction. The roach buff has seen a few nice applications (mostly in PvZ) and is a really nice tweak that does not break anything. It's comments like this where I wonder why people comment on balance when they are not watching games. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On December 15 2013 22:36 Big J wrote: Just that we have seen an increase of Mechplay in TvZ by a few thousand percent since the patch... Mvp, Maru, jjakji(?) all were somewhat successful with it in TvZ. No we are not seeing "everybody playing it all the time", but it was a quite successful buff in the right direction. The roach buff has seen a few nice applications (mostly in PvZ) and is a really nice tweak that does not break anything. It's comments like this where I wonder why people comment on balance when they are not watching games. Thing is, those mech users—Mvp, Maru, probably Flash—were already using mech before. Don't remember jjakji playing mech vs Zerg. TaeJa played one mech game vs Scarlett at HSC8 (Polar Night) but won with his Hellions/Banshees harass. Bogus played one mech game vs Jaedong at DH Winter. And from memory, none of those mech wins featured any Swarm host... | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On December 15 2013 22:36 Big J wrote: Just that we have seen an increase of Mechplay in TvZ by a few thousand percent since the patch... Mvp, Maru, jjakji(?) all were somewhat successful with it in TvZ. No we are not seeing "everybody playing it all the time", but it was a quite successful buff in the right direction. The roach buff has seen a few nice applications (mostly in PvZ) and is a really nice tweak that does not break anything. It's comments like this where I wonder why people comment on balance when they are not watching games. Mech play hasn't really gone up for people that hasn't used mech. Neither has tank play really replaced WM play which is the intended purpose of the change. It's comments like these that make me wonder if you're arguing for the sake of arguing. I'm gonna go with a yes. edit: ^ what he said | ||
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
HOTS have given them insane mobility : Warpgate, super fast warp prism, recall T1. + The insane stargate kit : oracle, phoenix. That's the biggest issue in PvZ for me : In late game, Zerg has trouble to defend a lot of expansion, while P can warp everywhere to defend or to harass zerg. Another issue is the warpprism + mass zelotes warp is totaly gazless, while you can't counter this with gazless units. Another problem is P is too safe, nearly immune to cheese, while having insane cheese kit and insane A clik late game. Photon overcharge obvioulsy, but also scouting abilities overbuffed : The MSC core can be used as scout, the hallucinate pheonix can scout the entire map, the oracle can be used has a scout too because of his speed, and aslo can reveal an entire army. Aslo too many AOE, too strong army, reprod is zerg like.The toss dictate the game and the T/Z need to follow the tech not to be crushed. Also insane ability to come back after failing, while nearly never lose when ahead. And easiest race to play cause they can just BO win even vs a better opponent while they're not really all-in. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 15 2013 22:52 Chaggi wrote: Mech play hasn't really gone up for people that hasn't used mech. Neither has tank play really replaced WM play which is the intended purpose of the change. It's comments like these that make me wonder if you're arguing for the sake of arguing. I'm gonna go with a yes. edit: ^ what he said That's what you said. I don't think I've seen ANY top level Terran beyond Bomber using tanks for timings that actually used tanks in TvZ cause mines are just that much better for how current TvZ is played. I gave examples why your comment is out of place, since there are people using it successfully. The "intention" of the patch was not that the tank replaces the mine. It was - to buff Mech and thus increase variety (achieved) - to have tanks being used besides mines (not achieved and probably not achievable outside of Mech since they overlap) On December 15 2013 22:48 TheDwf wrote: Thing is, those mech users—Mvp, Maru, probably Flash—were already using mech before. Don't remember jjakji playing mech vs Zerg. TaeJa played one mech game vs Scarlett at HSC8 (Polar Night) but won with his Hellions/Banshees harass. Bogus played one mech game vs Jaedong at DH Winter. And from memory, none of those mech wins featured any Swarm host... Well, the usage of Mech has hugely increased. It's not as stable as bio, but the patch really helped and goes in the right direction. That's all I was saying. No need to put it like Chaggi and pretend everything about the patch was wrong when it actually has some very visual positive results. I mean unless one isso delusional and thinks that Mech could have been repaired Mech with a single change in TvZ, the results are as good as they can be given how small those two changes are. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
Why did they try to instantly phase WMs out to bring back tanks instead of ... just phasing tanks in? When tanks are good enough to replace WMs, Terrans will build them instead of WMs of their own volition. No need to nerf anything. | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On December 15 2013 23:08 Big J wrote: That's what you said. I gave examples why your comment is out of place, since there are people using it successfully. The "intention" of the patch was not that the tank replaces the mine. It was - to buff Mech and thus increase variety (achieved) - to have tanks being used besides mines (not achieved and probably not achievable outside of Mech since they overlap) Well, the usage of Mech has hugely increased. It's not as stable as bio, but the patch really helped and goes in the right direction. That's all I was saying. No need to put it like Chaggi and pretend everything about the patch was wrong when it actually has some very visual positive results. I mean unless you are so delusional and think that you could have repaired Mech with a single change in TvZ, the results are as good as they can be given how small those two changes are. People have been using Mech "successfully" without the patch. That's the point and the problem. I believe David Kim said the reason for the WM nerf was We'd like to push out the Widow Mine a little bit and bump up the Siege Tank so that bio play becomes more interesting. Ultimately, we believe a mix of Widow Mines and Siege Tanks with your bio army will be a lot more fun to watch than just Widow Mines with bio alone. Have we seen any of that? (The answer you're looking for is no, but the one you want to answer with is yes, but you don't watch enough games Chaggi). If we really saw a push for mech to be better, why make such a DRASTIC CHANGE as tank firing speed from 3.0 to 2.7 (oh wait it's 2.8 now) while nerfing one of the main units of 4M? | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On December 15 2013 23:09 pure.Wasted wrote: Can anyone explain to me why Blizz didn't buff Tanks while not nerfing WMs? What the the logic behind it is. They're both mech units and we want more mech, they're both positional units and we want more positional play, they both cost gas, it's not easy to produce them at the same time... Why did they try to instantly phase WMs out to bring back tanks instead of ... just phasing tanks in? When tanks are good enough to replace WMs, Terrans will build them instead of WMs of their own volition. No need to nerf anything. David Kim said it was to promote the use of tanks. Basically if WM's suck, then people will use tanks more cause they suck. (It's really horrible logic) | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On December 15 2013 23:08 Big J wrote: Well, the usage of Mech has hugely increased. It's not as stable as bio, but the patch really helped and goes in the right direction. That's all I was saying. No need to put it like Chaggi and pretend everything about the patch was wrong when it actually has some very visual positive results. I mean unless one isso delusional and thinks that Mech could have been repaired Mech with a single change in TvZ, the results are as good as they can be given how small those two changes are. Hugely? No, I would say "slightly". And a simple change, suggested by so many people, like Blinding Cloud reducing the range of units under its effect by 5-6, would already result in way more mech play in TvZ than a 3.0 → 2.8 attack speed or merged upgrades. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On December 15 2013 23:17 Chaggi wrote: David Kim said it was to promote the use of tanks. Basically if WM's suck, then people will use tanks more cause they suck. (It's really horrible logic) God that's wrong on so many levels. Not only is it simply nonsensical to artificially phase out WMs, which actually do a lot of good for the game (positional play, force Zerg to micro) as opposed to simply letting buffed Tanks naturally phase them out a , but... before this patch TvZ was really balanced. There's no telling how a random nerf here and a random buff there will skew with that balance, and although I'm totally in favor of screwing with the game to get better gameplay, this was just a back-asswards way of doing it. Suddenly Muta flocks can A-move again, Tanks can't kill Mutas, and Tanks aren't used on the ground either! Whee! | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On December 15 2013 23:27 pure.Wasted wrote: God that's wrong on so many levels. Not only is it simply nonsensical to artificially phase out WMs, which actually do a lot of good for the game (positional play, force Zerg to micro) as opposed to simply letting buffed Tanks naturally phase them out a , but... before this patch TvZ was really balanced. There's no telling how a random nerf here and a random buff there will skew with that balance, and although I'm totally in favor of screwing with the game to get better gameplay, this was just a back-asswards way of doing it. Suddenly Muta flocks can A-move again, Tanks can't kill Mutas, and Tanks aren't used on the ground either! Whee! Well furthermore, the reason that they wanted to phase out 4M play is cause it's the MOST dominant by far of any styles in TvZ. That's simply not cause it's the easiest to play, but the one that will generate the highest win rates for Terrans (among the pro level). If they wanted different styles of play, they should buff other units rather than nerf one of the key units of 4M. If they succeeded in buffing tanks, and WM's were not really used, or used in conjunction with tanks, it'd bring tank/wm/bio as the main thing to use. And then 6 months later, we're going to have people complain about how THAT is boring. Considering tank play vs WM play is on the opposite sides of spectrum on how to actually play, it'd be by far better to have tank play AND WM play be viable. Instead they nerf WM, and bring a tank buff that no one really wanted (and we really don't see the effects of) which makes no one really happy. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On December 15 2013 23:17 Chaggi wrote: David Kim said it was to promote the use of tanks. Basically if WM's suck, then people will use tanks more cause they suck. (It's really horrible logic) Apparently they don't understand that if they want Tank or Tank + Mine play vs Zerg, the Tank has to be the primary source of AoE damage (which means that Tanks have to be efficient against lings/banes charges, even on creep), and the Mine has to be the support unit. From the patch it seems they tried the reverse, and unsurprisingly failed again. | ||
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MattD
United Kingdom83 Posts
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On December 15 2013 23:41 MattD wrote: People saying that mech still needs buffing simply don't even play the game. Mech vs zerg is very fucking strong, theres a reason goody has like an 80% win rate with it. Blinding cloud is NOT problem, good mech terrans don't die to blinding cloud timings and without it zerg would have 0 chance to win. The main reason people don't want to play mech every game is because it lasts for 4 fucking hours every time but that has nothing to do with balance it's by design and will not change any time soon. No one cares about Goody's winrate in ladder... Korean Zergs have no troubles killing Terrans trying to passively build a Raven fleet out of mech. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On December 15 2013 23:41 MattD wrote: People saying that mech still needs buffing simply don't even play the game. Mech vs zerg is very fucking strong, theres a reason goody has like an 80% win rate with it. Blinding cloud is NOT problem, good mech terrans don't die to blinding cloud timings and without it zerg would have 0 chance to win. The main reason people don't want to play mech every game is because it lasts for 4 fucking hours every time but that has nothing to do with balance it's by design and will not change any time soon. So winning $30k+ prizes isn't enough motivation for Korean Terrans to play longer games? Interesting theory. | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On December 15 2013 23:54 pure.Wasted wrote: So winning $30k+ prizes isn't enough motivation for Korean Terrans to play longer games? Interesting theory. Little known fact, Terrans can actually get by in life by whining so $$$ isn't a motivation. Taeja is just a Protoss/Zerg player in disguise. | ||
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Sabu113
United States11048 Posts
On December 16 2013 00:11 Chaggi wrote: Little known fact, Terrans can actually get by in life by whining so $$$ isn't a motivation. Taeja is just a Protoss/Zerg player in disguise. What do you mean? Terrans are horrible whiners. Hence the myth of the chosen terran player just "being better" than players of other races and the constant refrains about so many nerfs despite being obviously and demonstrably imabalanced and broken at times in SC2's life cycle. Hell if we listened to half the garbage in this thread we would get rid of collosi so there could be a fair fight between marines and gateway units. So silly. Other races start to also win tournaments and suddenly the world has ended. + Show Spoiler + Look. If Naniwa eclipses Stephano, I am all good. We can get rid of warpgate, collosi, oracles and MsCs then. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On December 16 2013 01:06 Sabu113 wrote: What do you mean? Terrans are horrible whiners. Hence the myth of the chosen terran player just "being better" than players of other races and the constant refrains about so many nerfs despite being obviously and demonstrably imabalanced and broken at times in SC2's life cycle. Hell if we listened to half the garbage in this thread we would get rid of collosi so there could be a fair fight between marines and gateway units. So silly. Other races start to also win tournaments and suddenly the world has ended. + Show Spoiler + Look. If Naniwa eclipses Stephano, I am all good. We can get rid of warpgate, collosi, oracles and MsCs then. We would get rid of Colossi so it is replaced by a skill-based AoE unit from the robo, something that would allow distinction between a random high master and Rain, unlike the horrible 1a unit that the Colossus is.* And in case you failed to understand it, that is fully in the interest of your race. | ||
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