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Muta magic box is the more efficient way to kill workers while chasing
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On December 15 2013 09:25 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2013 09:23 bo1b wrote:On December 15 2013 09:14 TheDwf wrote:
A simple nerf to muta regen should do, something like 1 hit point regenerated every 2 or 2.25 seconds instead of 1 per second as of now (it's 1 every ~3,7 second for the rest of Zerg units). I've been wanting that for a while, I just don't understand why the muta regen was even implemented in the first place. Making things easier/more forgiving to promote harass (Medivacs, Mutalisks, Oracles, Warp Prisms) is apparently Blizzard's philosophy...
I think we can all agree at this point that Blizz truly don't know what the fuck they're doing.
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On December 15 2013 09:23 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2013 09:14 TheDwf wrote:
A simple nerf to muta regen should do, something like 1 hit point regenerated every 2 or 2.25 seconds instead of 1 per second as of now (it's 1 every ~3,7 second for the rest of Zerg units). I've been wanting that for a while, I just don't understand why the muta regen was even implemented in the first place.
Because of widow mines. Make widow mines not hit air and muta regen can probably be nerfed. otherwise it's pretty much 1 small movement mistake can make half your muta pack useless if it regenerates as slow as before.
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On December 15 2013 14:46 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2013 09:23 bo1b wrote:On December 15 2013 09:14 TheDwf wrote:
A simple nerf to muta regen should do, something like 1 hit point regenerated every 2 or 2.25 seconds instead of 1 per second as of now (it's 1 every ~3,7 second for the rest of Zerg units). I've been wanting that for a while, I just don't understand why the muta regen was even implemented in the first place. Because of widow mines. Make widow mines not hit air and muta regen can probably be nerfed. otherwise it's pretty much 1 small movement mistake can make half your muta pack useless if it regenerates as slow as before.
Sure, but as it is at the moment 2 regen feels a little silly post wm nerf.
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On December 15 2013 14:46 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2013 09:23 bo1b wrote:On December 15 2013 09:14 TheDwf wrote:
A simple nerf to muta regen should do, something like 1 hit point regenerated every 2 or 2.25 seconds instead of 1 per second as of now (it's 1 every ~3,7 second for the rest of Zerg units). I've been wanting that for a while, I just don't understand why the muta regen was even implemented in the first place. Because of widow mines. Make widow mines not hit air and muta regen can probably be nerfed. otherwise it's pretty much 1 small movement mistake can make half your muta pack useless if it regenerates as slow as before.
Damn I wish my WMs could hit mutas sometimes 
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On December 15 2013 14:46 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2013 09:23 bo1b wrote:On December 15 2013 09:14 TheDwf wrote:
A simple nerf to muta regen should do, something like 1 hit point regenerated every 2 or 2.25 seconds instead of 1 per second as of now (it's 1 every ~3,7 second for the rest of Zerg units). I've been wanting that for a while, I just don't understand why the muta regen was even implemented in the first place. Because of widow mines. Make widow mines not hit air and muta regen can probably be nerfed. otherwise it's pretty much 1 small movement mistake can make half your muta pack useless if it regenerates as slow as before.
Muta regen was increased because of the WM as they were at the time of the release. Their damage has been reduced quite significantly (even though it looks small on paper, we see a big change in actual games), so natural response would be to tone down regen.
Nobody says it needs to be 0.27 hp/s as it was in WoL but 1 hp/s is too much considering the weaker widow mine and the fact that they are faster now so it is harder to chase them down with marines and hit them with thors.
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On December 15 2013 16:31 Qwerty85 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2013 14:46 blade55555 wrote:On December 15 2013 09:23 bo1b wrote:On December 15 2013 09:14 TheDwf wrote:
A simple nerf to muta regen should do, something like 1 hit point regenerated every 2 or 2.25 seconds instead of 1 per second as of now (it's 1 every ~3,7 second for the rest of Zerg units). I've been wanting that for a while, I just don't understand why the muta regen was even implemented in the first place. Because of widow mines. Make widow mines not hit air and muta regen can probably be nerfed. otherwise it's pretty much 1 small movement mistake can make half your muta pack useless if it regenerates as slow as before. Muta regen was increased because of the WM as they were at the time of the release. Their damage has been reduced quite significantly (even though it looks small on paper, we see a big change in actual games), so natural response would be to tone down regen. Nobody says it needs to be 0.27 hp/s as it was in WoL but 1 hp/s is too much considering the weaker widow mine and the fact that they are faster now so it is harder to chase them down with marines and hit them with thors.
What proof have you that 1 HP/s is "too much"? If you have no math to back your claim, then it's just an assertion; an allegation with no valid support or attempt at a proof.
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On December 15 2013 16:43 j00pdaw00p wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2013 16:31 Qwerty85 wrote:On December 15 2013 14:46 blade55555 wrote:On December 15 2013 09:23 bo1b wrote:On December 15 2013 09:14 TheDwf wrote:
A simple nerf to muta regen should do, something like 1 hit point regenerated every 2 or 2.25 seconds instead of 1 per second as of now (it's 1 every ~3,7 second for the rest of Zerg units). I've been wanting that for a while, I just don't understand why the muta regen was even implemented in the first place. Because of widow mines. Make widow mines not hit air and muta regen can probably be nerfed. otherwise it's pretty much 1 small movement mistake can make half your muta pack useless if it regenerates as slow as before. Muta regen was increased because of the WM as they were at the time of the release. Their damage has been reduced quite significantly (even though it looks small on paper, we see a big change in actual games), so natural response would be to tone down regen. Nobody says it needs to be 0.27 hp/s as it was in WoL but 1 hp/s is too much considering the weaker widow mine and the fact that they are faster now so it is harder to chase them down with marines and hit them with thors. What proof have you that 1 HP/s is "too much"? If you have no math to back your claim, then it's just an assertion; an allegation with no valid support or attempt at a proof.
Terrans getting wercked by mass mutas these days, the fact that you can't kill them because they are too fast too.
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On December 15 2013 16:47 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2013 16:43 j00pdaw00p wrote:On December 15 2013 16:31 Qwerty85 wrote:On December 15 2013 14:46 blade55555 wrote:On December 15 2013 09:23 bo1b wrote:On December 15 2013 09:14 TheDwf wrote:
A simple nerf to muta regen should do, something like 1 hit point regenerated every 2 or 2.25 seconds instead of 1 per second as of now (it's 1 every ~3,7 second for the rest of Zerg units). I've been wanting that for a while, I just don't understand why the muta regen was even implemented in the first place. Because of widow mines. Make widow mines not hit air and muta regen can probably be nerfed. otherwise it's pretty much 1 small movement mistake can make half your muta pack useless if it regenerates as slow as before. Muta regen was increased because of the WM as they were at the time of the release. Their damage has been reduced quite significantly (even though it looks small on paper, we see a big change in actual games), so natural response would be to tone down regen. Nobody says it needs to be 0.27 hp/s as it was in WoL but 1 hp/s is too much considering the weaker widow mine and the fact that they are faster now so it is harder to chase them down with marines and hit them with thors. What proof have you that 1 HP/s is "too much"? If you have no math to back your claim, then it's just an assertion; an allegation with no valid support or attempt at a proof. Terrans getting wercked by mass mutas these days, the fast that you can't kill them because they are too fast too.
It´s not like zerg´s just get to mass muta free. Usually if Z has +30 mutts that means that Z has outplayed terran cause mutas do still die fast against bio ball. I think that maybe making thor bait faster would be better as few thors supported by bio is not where you want to fly your mutas.
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On December 15 2013 16:55 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2013 16:47 Faust852 wrote:On December 15 2013 16:43 j00pdaw00p wrote:On December 15 2013 16:31 Qwerty85 wrote:On December 15 2013 14:46 blade55555 wrote:On December 15 2013 09:23 bo1b wrote:On December 15 2013 09:14 TheDwf wrote:
A simple nerf to muta regen should do, something like 1 hit point regenerated every 2 or 2.25 seconds instead of 1 per second as of now (it's 1 every ~3,7 second for the rest of Zerg units). I've been wanting that for a while, I just don't understand why the muta regen was even implemented in the first place. Because of widow mines. Make widow mines not hit air and muta regen can probably be nerfed. otherwise it's pretty much 1 small movement mistake can make half your muta pack useless if it regenerates as slow as before. Muta regen was increased because of the WM as they were at the time of the release. Their damage has been reduced quite significantly (even though it looks small on paper, we see a big change in actual games), so natural response would be to tone down regen. Nobody says it needs to be 0.27 hp/s as it was in WoL but 1 hp/s is too much considering the weaker widow mine and the fact that they are faster now so it is harder to chase them down with marines and hit them with thors. What proof have you that 1 HP/s is "too much"? If you have no math to back your claim, then it's just an assertion; an allegation with no valid support or attempt at a proof. Terrans getting wercked by mass mutas these days, the fast that you can't kill them because they are too fast too. It´s not like zerg´s just get to mass muta free. Usually if Z has +30 mutts that means that Z has outplayed terran cause mutas do still die fast against bio ball. I think that maybe making thor bait faster would be better as few thors supported by bio is not where you want to fly your mutas.
I don't know, when I lose to a zerg, I know he knows how to play the game (not like some TvP I play). But sometimes it's kinda frustrating to play heavy macro game where you are 3/3 vs 2/2 and like b4 vs b4 but you can't leave your base because the zerg has like 30+ mutalisks. I don't think you need to be outplayed to face 30 mutas and the current metagame is heavy muta play.
I refer you to Jjakji vs Scarlett on Akilon where Jjajki was really ahead but couldn't attack because of muta harass, he finally lost his advantage slowly and lost because of tradebase where mutas kills OC and scarlett burrow baneling everywhere.
That's why i'm switching to mech vs Z, I think it's much more mistake forgiving and once you reach a decent army with raven you can't really lose.
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On December 15 2013 07:41 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2013 05:28 Iron_ wrote:
This is one of the sillier arguments I hear about getting rid of the broken nexus cannon. Here are the various things you can defend drops with.
1) Warp in units
2) Templar with feedback to instantly kill/hurt and make usless the medivacs
3) Cannons (which shoot both air and ground, you actually can build those)
4) Phoenix (you can open with an oracle then go into 2-3 phoenix for map control/drop control)
Basically 1-2 cannons and 1 templar plus warp in OWNS any medivac drop that isn't a doom drop. I don't understand why people try and make this argument, it holds no water. Ok, no. If you get rid of "broken nexus cannon" Protoss has ONE opening: 1 gate FE into 3-4 gates into robo. Stargate is suicidal without overcharge, a simple 2 rax kills you, let alone any kind of 1 base cheese.
OK i got it, so you are saying that having only one possible opening, and dying instantly if you do anything different is bad? Welcome to the state of current TvP brah!
I love how you ruthlessly defend protoss, but sadly this is simply not the truth. Protoss will still have many possible openings, they will just .............. you know................. actually PAY THE PRICE if their failed pressure doesn't do damage. That would be awful right? If Protoss does an all in, FAILS, and actually suffers? Terrible!!!!!
Thank you for convincing me. I get it now. I too, am a Protoss fanboy.
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On December 15 2013 17:11 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2013 16:55 RaFox17 wrote:On December 15 2013 16:47 Faust852 wrote:On December 15 2013 16:43 j00pdaw00p wrote:On December 15 2013 16:31 Qwerty85 wrote:On December 15 2013 14:46 blade55555 wrote:On December 15 2013 09:23 bo1b wrote:On December 15 2013 09:14 TheDwf wrote:
A simple nerf to muta regen should do, something like 1 hit point regenerated every 2 or 2.25 seconds instead of 1 per second as of now (it's 1 every ~3,7 second for the rest of Zerg units). I've been wanting that for a while, I just don't understand why the muta regen was even implemented in the first place. Because of widow mines. Make widow mines not hit air and muta regen can probably be nerfed. otherwise it's pretty much 1 small movement mistake can make half your muta pack useless if it regenerates as slow as before. Muta regen was increased because of the WM as they were at the time of the release. Their damage has been reduced quite significantly (even though it looks small on paper, we see a big change in actual games), so natural response would be to tone down regen. Nobody says it needs to be 0.27 hp/s as it was in WoL but 1 hp/s is too much considering the weaker widow mine and the fact that they are faster now so it is harder to chase them down with marines and hit them with thors. What proof have you that 1 HP/s is "too much"? If you have no math to back your claim, then it's just an assertion; an allegation with no valid support or attempt at a proof. Terrans getting wercked by mass mutas these days, the fast that you can't kill them because they are too fast too. It´s not like zerg´s just get to mass muta free. Usually if Z has +30 mutts that means that Z has outplayed terran cause mutas do still die fast against bio ball. I think that maybe making thor bait faster would be better as few thors supported by bio is not where you want to fly your mutas. I don't know, when I lose to a zerg, I know he knows how to play the game (not like some TvP I play). But sometimes it's kinda frustrating to play heavy macro game where you are 3/3 vs 2/2 and like b4 vs b4 but you can't leave your base because the zerg has like 30+ mutalisks. I don't think you need to be outplayed to face 30 mutas and the current metagame is heavy muta play. I refer you to Jjakji vs Scarlett on Akilon where Jjajki was really ahead but couldn't attack because of muta harass, he finally lost his advantage slowly and lost because of tradebase where mutas kills OC and scarlett burrow baneling everywhere. That's why i'm switching to mech vs Z, I think it's much more mistake forgiving and once you reach a decent army with raven you can't really lose.
Terrans aren't 'getting wrecked by mass mutas these days', you don't have sufficient proof; this is just another unsupported assertion spawning from your bias toward Terran. I played Zerg (high master) and just recently switched to Terran, not because I think the mu is imbalanced in T's favor, but because bioTerran falls in better alignment with my aggressive playstyle, and I enjoy Terran mechanics and micro. I think TvZ is fairly balanced atm and think that the issue lies in Protoss; i.e., I think Protoss is OP in both mu's.
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On December 15 2013 18:13 j00pdaw00p wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2013 17:11 Faust852 wrote:On December 15 2013 16:55 RaFox17 wrote:On December 15 2013 16:47 Faust852 wrote:On December 15 2013 16:43 j00pdaw00p wrote:On December 15 2013 16:31 Qwerty85 wrote:On December 15 2013 14:46 blade55555 wrote:On December 15 2013 09:23 bo1b wrote:On December 15 2013 09:14 TheDwf wrote:
A simple nerf to muta regen should do, something like 1 hit point regenerated every 2 or 2.25 seconds instead of 1 per second as of now (it's 1 every ~3,7 second for the rest of Zerg units). I've been wanting that for a while, I just don't understand why the muta regen was even implemented in the first place. Because of widow mines. Make widow mines not hit air and muta regen can probably be nerfed. otherwise it's pretty much 1 small movement mistake can make half your muta pack useless if it regenerates as slow as before. Muta regen was increased because of the WM as they were at the time of the release. Their damage has been reduced quite significantly (even though it looks small on paper, we see a big change in actual games), so natural response would be to tone down regen. Nobody says it needs to be 0.27 hp/s as it was in WoL but 1 hp/s is too much considering the weaker widow mine and the fact that they are faster now so it is harder to chase them down with marines and hit them with thors. What proof have you that 1 HP/s is "too much"? If you have no math to back your claim, then it's just an assertion; an allegation with no valid support or attempt at a proof. Terrans getting wercked by mass mutas these days, the fast that you can't kill them because they are too fast too. It´s not like zerg´s just get to mass muta free. Usually if Z has +30 mutts that means that Z has outplayed terran cause mutas do still die fast against bio ball. I think that maybe making thor bait faster would be better as few thors supported by bio is not where you want to fly your mutas. I don't know, when I lose to a zerg, I know he knows how to play the game (not like some TvP I play). But sometimes it's kinda frustrating to play heavy macro game where you are 3/3 vs 2/2 and like b4 vs b4 but you can't leave your base because the zerg has like 30+ mutalisks. I don't think you need to be outplayed to face 30 mutas and the current metagame is heavy muta play. I refer you to Jjakji vs Scarlett on Akilon where Jjajki was really ahead but couldn't attack because of muta harass, he finally lost his advantage slowly and lost because of tradebase where mutas kills OC and scarlett burrow baneling everywhere. That's why i'm switching to mech vs Z, I think it's much more mistake forgiving and once you reach a decent army with raven you can't really lose. Terrans aren't 'getting wrecked by mass mutas these days', you don't have sufficient proof; this is just another unsupported assertion spawning from your bias toward Terran. I played Zerg (higher master) and just recently switched to Terran, not because I think the mu is imbalanced in T's favor, but because bioTerran falls in better alignment with my aggressive playstyle, and I enjoy Terran mechanics and micro. I think TvZ is fairly balanced atm and think that the issue lies in Protoss; i.e., I think Protoss is OP in both mu's.
I never said Z was imbalance, just that we are currently seeing mass mutas getting stronger and stronger as the meta evolve. I have a fairly good ratio in TvZ fyi.
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On December 15 2013 16:43 j00pdaw00p wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2013 16:31 Qwerty85 wrote:On December 15 2013 14:46 blade55555 wrote:On December 15 2013 09:23 bo1b wrote:On December 15 2013 09:14 TheDwf wrote:
A simple nerf to muta regen should do, something like 1 hit point regenerated every 2 or 2.25 seconds instead of 1 per second as of now (it's 1 every ~3,7 second for the rest of Zerg units). I've been wanting that for a while, I just don't understand why the muta regen was even implemented in the first place. Because of widow mines. Make widow mines not hit air and muta regen can probably be nerfed. otherwise it's pretty much 1 small movement mistake can make half your muta pack useless if it regenerates as slow as before. Muta regen was increased because of the WM as they were at the time of the release. Their damage has been reduced quite significantly (even though it looks small on paper, we see a big change in actual games), so natural response would be to tone down regen. Nobody says it needs to be 0.27 hp/s as it was in WoL but 1 hp/s is too much considering the weaker widow mine and the fact that they are faster now so it is harder to chase them down with marines and hit them with thors. What proof have you that 1 HP/s is "too much"? If you have no math to back your claim, then it's just an assertion; an allegation with no valid support or attempt at a proof.
Balance is not just math. It is also game observation. I would even say that it is less math and more game observation because things don't play out in a vacuum and there is no math formula that could produce accurate results by itself.
1. Why did Blizzard propose stronger WM nerf and then tone it down so that damage decreases as radius increases?
2. Why did they change the tank firing rate during the testing period?
3. Why was bunker build time adjusted so many times in WoL?
4. Why are some proposed changes discarded in the end? (like nerfing creep spread and buffing ravens in WoL).
5. Why did they made so many tweaks during the SC2 period if math could produce them accurate results right from the start?
It is because the game observation and practical testing tells you more than just looking at numbers.
So they didn't do changes in a lab, using a specific math formula, because in that case the number would be 100% accurate and there would be no need for testing and adjustments.
But if you want some math behind it, Blizzard itself said that TvZ was balanced before they nerfed the mine. So that bio+medivac+WM vs. ling-bane-muta wars were balanced with the pre patch WM. WM also hits air and affects flying units like mutalisks. So it is only logical that making WM anti air weaker makes mutas stronger in an already balanced matchup.
So you can say that it takes skill to produce that many mutas and not lose them during the game, but the skill requirement to do so decreases as terran anti-air options and ways to reduce mutalisk numbers get weaker.
Now after the patch, we see more and more zergs using big muta flocks and terrans strugling against it. They are strugling because it is harder to reduce the muta numbers due to weaker anti air so they just keep rising. It is not just Scarlett, players like Soulkey (vs. Maru) or Life (vs. Taeja at Dreamhack) were (ab)using mutas.
From observation point of view, more and more TvZ games are decided by mutas and that is why I think mutalisk regeneration is too strong now, since at the release it was obviously designed to withstand stronger widow mines.
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On December 15 2013 16:55 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2013 16:47 Faust852 wrote:On December 15 2013 16:43 j00pdaw00p wrote:On December 15 2013 16:31 Qwerty85 wrote:On December 15 2013 14:46 blade55555 wrote:On December 15 2013 09:23 bo1b wrote:On December 15 2013 09:14 TheDwf wrote:
A simple nerf to muta regen should do, something like 1 hit point regenerated every 2 or 2.25 seconds instead of 1 per second as of now (it's 1 every ~3,7 second for the rest of Zerg units). I've been wanting that for a while, I just don't understand why the muta regen was even implemented in the first place. Because of widow mines. Make widow mines not hit air and muta regen can probably be nerfed. otherwise it's pretty much 1 small movement mistake can make half your muta pack useless if it regenerates as slow as before. Muta regen was increased because of the WM as they were at the time of the release. Their damage has been reduced quite significantly (even though it looks small on paper, we see a big change in actual games), so natural response would be to tone down regen. Nobody says it needs to be 0.27 hp/s as it was in WoL but 1 hp/s is too much considering the weaker widow mine and the fact that they are faster now so it is harder to chase them down with marines and hit them with thors. What proof have you that 1 HP/s is "too much"? If you have no math to back your claim, then it's just an assertion; an allegation with no valid support or attempt at a proof. Terrans getting wercked by mass mutas these days, the fast that you can't kill them because they are too fast too. It´s not like zerg´s just get to mass muta free. Usually if Z has +30 mutts that means that Z has outplayed terran cause mutas do still die fast against bio ball. I think that maybe making thor bait faster would be better as few thors supported by bio is not where you want to fly your mutas.
Missile turrets, marines that can no longer chase mutas because they are too fast, thors that do less damage because muta regen is almost 4x faster than in WoL and WM nerf made all terran anti air options weaker. Also even if they suffer damage, it now has almost 4x less impact than in WoL. So margin for error on zergs part is much greater than before.
So by your reasoning, if zerg doesn't fly his mutas straight into a bio ball he outplayed terran? That would mean that unless you do a major blunder, you will always outplay terran with mutas because that is really the only way to lose the muta flock you have been building during the game.
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On December 15 2013 19:00 Qwerty85 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2013 16:55 RaFox17 wrote:On December 15 2013 16:47 Faust852 wrote:On December 15 2013 16:43 j00pdaw00p wrote:On December 15 2013 16:31 Qwerty85 wrote:On December 15 2013 14:46 blade55555 wrote:On December 15 2013 09:23 bo1b wrote:On December 15 2013 09:14 TheDwf wrote:
A simple nerf to muta regen should do, something like 1 hit point regenerated every 2 or 2.25 seconds instead of 1 per second as of now (it's 1 every ~3,7 second for the rest of Zerg units). I've been wanting that for a while, I just don't understand why the muta regen was even implemented in the first place. Because of widow mines. Make widow mines not hit air and muta regen can probably be nerfed. otherwise it's pretty much 1 small movement mistake can make half your muta pack useless if it regenerates as slow as before. Muta regen was increased because of the WM as they were at the time of the release. Their damage has been reduced quite significantly (even though it looks small on paper, we see a big change in actual games), so natural response would be to tone down regen. Nobody says it needs to be 0.27 hp/s as it was in WoL but 1 hp/s is too much considering the weaker widow mine and the fact that they are faster now so it is harder to chase them down with marines and hit them with thors. What proof have you that 1 HP/s is "too much"? If you have no math to back your claim, then it's just an assertion; an allegation with no valid support or attempt at a proof. Terrans getting wercked by mass mutas these days, the fast that you can't kill them because they are too fast too. It´s not like zerg´s just get to mass muta free. Usually if Z has +30 mutts that means that Z has outplayed terran cause mutas do still die fast against bio ball. I think that maybe making thor bait faster would be better as few thors supported by bio is not where you want to fly your mutas. Missile turrets, marines that can no longer chase mutas because they are too fast, thors that do less damage because muta regen is almost 4x faster than in WoL and WM nerf made all terran anti air options weaker. Also even if they suffer damage, it now has almost 4x less impact than in WoL. So margin for error on zergs part is much greater than before. So by your reasoning, if zerg doesn't fly his mutas straight into a bio ball he outplayed terran? That would mean that unless you do a major blunder, you will always outplay terran with mutas because that is really the only way to lose the muta flock you have been building during the game.
Mutas are basically the thing that almost always decides ZvT when T plays bio. If Z does´t get the muta flock strong enough t T will roll over him when he hits 3-3 with 10 medics and marines stop dying. Without mutas picking WM and medivacs terran 3-3 usually just kills the zerg. This is why nerfing mutas could have huge impact on the game.
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On December 15 2013 19:28 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2013 19:00 Qwerty85 wrote:On December 15 2013 16:55 RaFox17 wrote:On December 15 2013 16:47 Faust852 wrote:On December 15 2013 16:43 j00pdaw00p wrote:On December 15 2013 16:31 Qwerty85 wrote:On December 15 2013 14:46 blade55555 wrote:On December 15 2013 09:23 bo1b wrote:On December 15 2013 09:14 TheDwf wrote:
A simple nerf to muta regen should do, something like 1 hit point regenerated every 2 or 2.25 seconds instead of 1 per second as of now (it's 1 every ~3,7 second for the rest of Zerg units). I've been wanting that for a while, I just don't understand why the muta regen was even implemented in the first place. Because of widow mines. Make widow mines not hit air and muta regen can probably be nerfed. otherwise it's pretty much 1 small movement mistake can make half your muta pack useless if it regenerates as slow as before. Muta regen was increased because of the WM as they were at the time of the release. Their damage has been reduced quite significantly (even though it looks small on paper, we see a big change in actual games), so natural response would be to tone down regen. Nobody says it needs to be 0.27 hp/s as it was in WoL but 1 hp/s is too much considering the weaker widow mine and the fact that they are faster now so it is harder to chase them down with marines and hit them with thors. What proof have you that 1 HP/s is "too much"? If you have no math to back your claim, then it's just an assertion; an allegation with no valid support or attempt at a proof. Terrans getting wercked by mass mutas these days, the fast that you can't kill them because they are too fast too. It´s not like zerg´s just get to mass muta free. Usually if Z has +30 mutts that means that Z has outplayed terran cause mutas do still die fast against bio ball. I think that maybe making thor bait faster would be better as few thors supported by bio is not where you want to fly your mutas. Missile turrets, marines that can no longer chase mutas because they are too fast, thors that do less damage because muta regen is almost 4x faster than in WoL and WM nerf made all terran anti air options weaker. Also even if they suffer damage, it now has almost 4x less impact than in WoL. So margin for error on zergs part is much greater than before. So by your reasoning, if zerg doesn't fly his mutas straight into a bio ball he outplayed terran? That would mean that unless you do a major blunder, you will always outplay terran with mutas because that is really the only way to lose the muta flock you have been building during the game. Mutas are basically the thing that almost always decides ZvT when T plays bio. If Z does´t get the muta flock strong enough t T will roll over him when he hits 3-3 with 10 medics and marines stop dying. Without mutas picking WM and medivacs terran 3-3 usually just kills the zerg. This is why nerfing mutas could have huge impact on the game.
Rolllback WM nerf then.
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On December 15 2013 19:32 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2013 19:28 RaFox17 wrote:On December 15 2013 19:00 Qwerty85 wrote:On December 15 2013 16:55 RaFox17 wrote:On December 15 2013 16:47 Faust852 wrote:On December 15 2013 16:43 j00pdaw00p wrote:On December 15 2013 16:31 Qwerty85 wrote:On December 15 2013 14:46 blade55555 wrote:On December 15 2013 09:23 bo1b wrote:On December 15 2013 09:14 TheDwf wrote:
A simple nerf to muta regen should do, something like 1 hit point regenerated every 2 or 2.25 seconds instead of 1 per second as of now (it's 1 every ~3,7 second for the rest of Zerg units). I've been wanting that for a while, I just don't understand why the muta regen was even implemented in the first place. Because of widow mines. Make widow mines not hit air and muta regen can probably be nerfed. otherwise it's pretty much 1 small movement mistake can make half your muta pack useless if it regenerates as slow as before. Muta regen was increased because of the WM as they were at the time of the release. Their damage has been reduced quite significantly (even though it looks small on paper, we see a big change in actual games), so natural response would be to tone down regen. Nobody says it needs to be 0.27 hp/s as it was in WoL but 1 hp/s is too much considering the weaker widow mine and the fact that they are faster now so it is harder to chase them down with marines and hit them with thors. What proof have you that 1 HP/s is "too much"? If you have no math to back your claim, then it's just an assertion; an allegation with no valid support or attempt at a proof. Terrans getting wercked by mass mutas these days, the fast that you can't kill them because they are too fast too. It´s not like zerg´s just get to mass muta free. Usually if Z has +30 mutts that means that Z has outplayed terran cause mutas do still die fast against bio ball. I think that maybe making thor bait faster would be better as few thors supported by bio is not where you want to fly your mutas. Missile turrets, marines that can no longer chase mutas because they are too fast, thors that do less damage because muta regen is almost 4x faster than in WoL and WM nerf made all terran anti air options weaker. Also even if they suffer damage, it now has almost 4x less impact than in WoL. So margin for error on zergs part is much greater than before. So by your reasoning, if zerg doesn't fly his mutas straight into a bio ball he outplayed terran? That would mean that unless you do a major blunder, you will always outplay terran with mutas because that is really the only way to lose the muta flock you have been building during the game. Mutas are basically the thing that almost always decides ZvT when T plays bio. If Z does´t get the muta flock strong enough t T will roll over him when he hits 3-3 with 10 medics and marines stop dying. Without mutas picking WM and medivacs terran 3-3 usually just kills the zerg. This is why nerfing mutas could have huge impact on the game. Rolllback WM nerf then.
I would prefer to buff thors. The old WM damage was a bit stupid sometimes.
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On December 15 2013 19:36 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2013 19:32 Faust852 wrote:On December 15 2013 19:28 RaFox17 wrote:On December 15 2013 19:00 Qwerty85 wrote:On December 15 2013 16:55 RaFox17 wrote:On December 15 2013 16:47 Faust852 wrote:On December 15 2013 16:43 j00pdaw00p wrote:On December 15 2013 16:31 Qwerty85 wrote:On December 15 2013 14:46 blade55555 wrote:On December 15 2013 09:23 bo1b wrote:
[quote]
I've been wanting that for a while, I just don't understand why the muta regen was even implemented in the first place. Because of widow mines. Make widow mines not hit air and muta regen can probably be nerfed. otherwise it's pretty much 1 small movement mistake can make half your muta pack useless if it regenerates as slow as before. Muta regen was increased because of the WM as they were at the time of the release. Their damage has been reduced quite significantly (even though it looks small on paper, we see a big change in actual games), so natural response would be to tone down regen. Nobody says it needs to be 0.27 hp/s as it was in WoL but 1 hp/s is too much considering the weaker widow mine and the fact that they are faster now so it is harder to chase them down with marines and hit them with thors. What proof have you that 1 HP/s is "too much"? If you have no math to back your claim, then it's just an assertion; an allegation with no valid support or attempt at a proof. Terrans getting wercked by mass mutas these days, the fast that you can't kill them because they are too fast too. It´s not like zerg´s just get to mass muta free. Usually if Z has +30 mutts that means that Z has outplayed terran cause mutas do still die fast against bio ball. I think that maybe making thor bait faster would be better as few thors supported by bio is not where you want to fly your mutas. Missile turrets, marines that can no longer chase mutas because they are too fast, thors that do less damage because muta regen is almost 4x faster than in WoL and WM nerf made all terran anti air options weaker. Also even if they suffer damage, it now has almost 4x less impact than in WoL. So margin for error on zergs part is much greater than before. So by your reasoning, if zerg doesn't fly his mutas straight into a bio ball he outplayed terran? That would mean that unless you do a major blunder, you will always outplay terran with mutas because that is really the only way to lose the muta flock you have been building during the game. Mutas are basically the thing that almost always decides ZvT when T plays bio. If Z does´t get the muta flock strong enough t T will roll over him when he hits 3-3 with 10 medics and marines stop dying. Without mutas picking WM and medivacs terran 3-3 usually just kills the zerg. This is why nerfing mutas could have huge impact on the game. Rolllback WM nerf then. I would prefer to buff thors. The old WM damage was a bit stupid sometimes.
Yep maybe, but at least it was rewarding for very good zergs that splited and triggered the WM before engaging, now I see a lot of zergs just amove and don't giving a shit about the WM. I don't know, anyway I still think we need to help terrans to deal against mass mutas, as you said thor buff might help, or maybe some way to prevent mutas to magic box that easily.
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Mutas are only way to play ZvT and are the main way to put pressure to terran. Of course terrans will have some problems against them. If they haven't, it would be just easy faceroll.
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EPT
