EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 833
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PanzerElite
540 Posts
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On December 13 2013 21:43 Wombat_NI wrote: I mean in PvP I used to defend Zealot/Archon comps by retreating back and making sim cities, I had opponents try to engage me doing similar things in open areas get wrecked and whine. It's called using your brain. It's also an area where Protoss and Terran players are MILES ahead of the average Zerg. Building placement is so critical for them, especially vZ that we've acquired many a trick. Hopefully they can refine things a bit and mitigate some of our harassment tools, there are ways. I'd tell you some but I quite enjoy killing completely naked tech buildings with warped in Zealots  I'm not sure about now, and I can't guarantee my memory to be too great, but like I seem to remember when Stephano was going on his rampage, that casters were like OH MY GOD HE JUST TARGETED THAT IMMORTAL DOWN and thinking, haven't Terran been doing that for awhile? Maybe it was cause the game was relatively pretty new but it really seemed like races don't prioritize the same type of things. I remember when I learned how to actually sim city and wall block as a Terran and make my base stupid hard for Protoss to get through (but had to learn how to do it different for TvZ cause mutaslol) and that was always fun. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26225 Posts
Build surrounding structures to block the Zealots getting surface area, Protoss can't non-commitally snipe things that are protected like that nearly as easily. Warping in 20 zealots when you have a mineral surplus is smart play from Protoss that could be better defended, IMO. Got some tricks in doing this :p | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 14 2013 05:51 Wombat_NI wrote: 'omg my greater spire got sniped by Zealots, WP Op' Build surrounding structures to block the Zealots getting surface area, Protoss can't non-commitally snipe things that are protected like that nearly as easily. Warping in 20 zealots when you have a mineral surplus is smart play from Protoss that could be better defended, IMO. Got some tricks in doing this :p yeah, but then you have never had those situations where you blocked spots and then the Protoss just warps into those that your melee and lowrange units cannot reach or that he can block off with 1-2zealots or a sentry for quite some time. Learned a lot from that game (there are really creative players on the ladder and they really deserve a wp!). walling important tech buildings is good - for as long as it leaves enough space to still defend them with zerg units! | ||
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tryman
United States2 Posts
That being said, I'm kinda curious about the way Terran is built. A friend of mine described playing Terran in SC2 as 'an exercise in shooting yourself in the foot': -Tanks deal Friendly Fire; this is carried over from SC1/BW. -Widow Mines deal tons of Friendly Fire, have a slow-ish fire and projectile, and I wish I had a dollar for every marine I saw killed by their own mines. -Raven Hunter-Seekers deal Friendly Fire and can be brought right to your own doorstep. Points to Bomber for at least weaponizing it. -Nukes (hahahah, nukes.) deal Friendly Fire. Granted, if you stick around the area your own nuke's landing you deserve what you get. -It was also very recently pointed out to me that Ghost EMPs hit themselves, orbitals, and medivacs. Compare to other races: Zerg banelings don't splash each other/zerglings, Blinding Cloud doesn't hit zerg units, Fungal doesn't screw over zerglings; colossus don't roast their own zealots, time warp doesn't hit zealots, but at least forcefield and storms can screw over toss units (granted, zealots seem to laugh off the storms they charge into). Now I don't think all of these should be fixed to remove friendly fire, but from what I was watching I think that Terran is missing some way to AoE-cast like Zerg and Protoss can that won't screw themselves over. The closest they have to that is the Raven's Hunter-Seeker and that's not a relatively quick-cast spell like Storm or Fungal, since it reveals just which unit it's targeting and then takes a few seconds to follow. A Terran analogue to the new Fungal (not Storm with its insta-cast) might be fun and give Terran a chance to move away from mines, especially in mech. I dunno, I'm probably wrong as I'm a bronze scrub. Still, foot-shooting. | ||
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Metalcore1993
New Zealand92 Posts
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KTP_TV
France42 Posts
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KTP_TV
France42 Posts
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KTP_TV
France42 Posts
On December 14 2013 08:22 tryman wrote: OK, to preface this post, my SC2 career can be summed up as ForeverBronze. All I know of play is from reading this/watching the game streams; I've found I'm terrible at playing and don't have time to practice. I preferred Protoss back in BW but switched to Terran when SC2 came out because my favorite units/buildings were swapped out. I know this should instantly disqualify anything I say in a balance thread. That being said, I'm kinda curious about the way Terran is built. A friend of mine described playing Terran in SC2 as 'an exercise in shooting yourself in the foot': -Tanks deal Friendly Fire; this is carried over from SC1/BW. -Widow Mines deal tons of Friendly Fire, have a slow-ish fire and projectile, and I wish I had a dollar for every marine I saw killed by their own mines. -Raven Hunter-Seekers deal Friendly Fire and can be brought right to your own doorstep. Points to Bomber for at least weaponizing it. -Nukes (hahahah, nukes.) deal Friendly Fire. Granted, if you stick around the area your own nuke's landing you deserve what you get. -It was also very recently pointed out to me that Ghost EMPs hit themselves, orbitals, and medivacs. Compare to other races: Zerg banelings don't splash each other/zerglings, Blinding Cloud doesn't hit zerg units, Fungal doesn't screw over zerglings; colossus don't roast their own zealots, time warp doesn't hit zealots, but at least forcefield and storms can screw over toss units (granted, zealots seem to laugh off the storms they charge into). Now I don't think all of these should be fixed to remove friendly fire, but from what I was watching I think that Terran is missing some way to AoE-cast like Zerg and Protoss can that won't screw themselves over. The closest they have to that is the Raven's Hunter-Seeker and that's not a relatively quick-cast spell like Storm or Fungal, since it reveals just which unit it's targeting and then takes a few seconds to follow. A Terran analogue to the new Fungal (not Storm with its insta-cast) might be fun and give Terran a chance to move away from mines, especially in mech. I dunno, I'm probably wrong as I'm a bronze scrub. Still, foot-shooting. There is at least one obivous explanation to this : Most of the terran units are units with a large attack range, the only melee unit is the hellbat. I let you do the math on why terrans have ff on every of their AoE, and why zerg and protoss don't ^^ | ||
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Kruxxen
United States149 Posts
Of course I haven't the faintest clue of how this would affect pvp and pvz, I don't know what compositions are used in those matchups now. | ||
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ffadicted
United States3545 Posts
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TurboMaN
Germany925 Posts
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Andwhy
United States91 Posts
1) A slight warpgate nerf- Make it so that High Templar cannot be made from warp gates. This would slow or weaken any zealot-archon all-ins; protoss couldn't warp in any high templar to morph at the lead position, so they either have to escort any reinforcing archons all the way from their base or risk having their reinforcements picked off. It would also reduce the number of readily available reinforcements: if a protoss pulls an 8-gate zealot-archon all-in and wants to reinforce a forward pylon during a fight, he can only warp in 6 zealots, since he would only have 6 warpgates and 2 gateways. It slows down the all-in without making it impossible to pull off while also giving more room for coutnerplay (sniping reinforcements) and decision making by the protoss player (risk sending archons alone across the map, change the two gateways into warpgates to warp more zealots at the front, or reinforce in groups like the other races). 2) Make the photon overcharge sap nexus energy and/or shields. If it saps energy, it means protoss players who don't want to build defenses can't macro quite as quickly, since they have to save up chronoboosts until the threat of the all-in passes. Then the overcharge is still a useful tool, but it isn't quite the "get out of jail free" card that it is currently. On the other hand, if it sapped shields, it leaves more counterplay. Say the overcharge saps 1/60 of the nexus' max shields per second over 60 seconds. This gives a few counterplay options. A player can wait out the photon overcharge and then re-engage to try to snipe a really weakened nexus, or a player could target the nexus to deplete its shields, shortening the duration of the overcharge. Of course, both of these still give the protoss some advantage: either he gets the 60 seconds of time he was looking for, or he gets free shots on the enemy army while they target his nexus. Either way, I don't think either of these changes are massive, but they would really help terran and zerg deal with some protoss attacks (i.e. limiting the number of viable all-ins) while also enabling some better early game aggression against protoss. Blizzard wouldn't have to add or remove any spells or abilities from the game, just tweak them from their current state. E: Just remember protoss can warp archons from Dark Templars. Maybe they'd also have to be warp disabled. That really shoots my first suggestion in the foot  | ||
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MarlieChurphy
United States2063 Posts
On December 14 2013 08:22 tryman wrote: OK, to preface this post, my SC2 career can be summed up as ForeverBronze. All I know of play is from reading this/watching the game streams; I've found I'm terrible at playing and don't have time to practice. I preferred Protoss back in BW but switched to Terran when SC2 came out because my favorite units/buildings were swapped out. I know this should instantly disqualify anything I say in a balance thread. That being said, I'm kinda curious about the way Terran is built. A friend of mine described playing Terran in SC2 as 'an exercise in shooting yourself in the foot': -Tanks deal Friendly Fire; this is carried over from SC1/BW. -Widow Mines deal tons of Friendly Fire, have a slow-ish fire and projectile, and I wish I had a dollar for every marine I saw killed by their own mines. -Raven Hunter-Seekers deal Friendly Fire and can be brought right to your own doorstep. Points to Bomber for at least weaponizing it. -Nukes (hahahah, nukes.) deal Friendly Fire. Granted, if you stick around the area your own nuke's landing you deserve what you get. -It was also very recently pointed out to me that Ghost EMPs hit themselves, orbitals, and medivacs. Compare to other races: Zerg banelings don't splash each other/zerglings, Blinding Cloud doesn't hit zerg units, Fungal doesn't screw over zerglings; colossus don't roast their own zealots, time warp doesn't hit zealots, but at least forcefield and storms can screw over toss units (granted, zealots seem to laugh off the storms they charge into). Now I don't think all of these should be fixed to remove friendly fire, but from what I was watching I think that Terran is missing some way to AoE-cast like Zerg and Protoss can that won't screw themselves over. The closest they have to that is the Raven's Hunter-Seeker and that's not a relatively quick-cast spell like Storm or Fungal, since it reveals just which unit it's targeting and then takes a few seconds to follow. A Terran analogue to the new Fungal (not Storm with its insta-cast) might be fun and give Terran a chance to move away from mines, especially in mech. I dunno, I'm probably wrong as I'm a bronze scrub. Still, foot-shooting. Welcome to TL. Terran has PDD that doesn't screw over us. Also yamato and snipe (not aoe though). Hellions and hellbats don't allied splash. I'm not sure what your point is really. It would be retarded if banelings or colossus could splash allied units. And then the game would have to be changed and balanced dramatically around the fact that no one would be using certain units. Like zergs would have to try and mass fungal and with marine spread this would be futile. | ||
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tryman
United States2 Posts
On December 14 2013 08:32 KTP_TV wrote: There is at least one obivous explanation to this : Most of the terran units are units with a large attack range, the only melee unit is the hellbat. I let you do the math on why terrans have ff on every of their AoE, and why zerg and protoss don't ^^ Considered that, but Toss just uses Zealots and later Archons, which are both very tanky melee units to begin with, just like Hellbats (in fairness, the exception: Dark Templar). Considering how almost every melee unit can close with a Marine on a 1:1 basis without dying immediately... range is great and it can win, but Toss can do ranged fairly well too. Technically Zerg aren't too bad either but I'm terrible with Zerg, so *shrug* On December 14 2013 10:01 MarlieChurphy wrote: Welcome to TL. Terran has PDD that doesn't screw over us. Also yamato and snipe (not aoe though). Hellions and hellbats don't allied splash. I'm not sure what your point is really. It would be retarded if banelings or colossus could splash allied units. And then the game would have to be changed and balanced dramatically around the fact that no one would be using certain units. Like zergs would have to try and mass fungal and with marine spread this would be futile. Thanks. Well, PDD isn't AoE, at least, but is strictly defensive. Yamato and Snipe aren't AoE, as you stated. So I'm not considering them here. Yes, Hellions/Hellbats don't do allied splash, but neither do Ultralisks and Archons, so I'm not worried too much about them. They're the lone exception in the Terran arsenal. Ultimately my point isn't to add FF to any of the others. That's silly and makes the game less fun and more difficult for upper levels. One FF per race is probably more than enough (though Zerg doesn't have it); Terran just has too many. My point is to give Terran a quicker-cast AoE that won't melt its own units. It doesn't even need to be something spammable, a one-use one could be pretty cool like a Thor that could only fire a single shot of the skill from its arsenal. Or you could swap powers, swap a yamato cannon for enhanced targeting arrays. | ||
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YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
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Iron_
United States389 Posts
On December 14 2013 12:27 YyapSsap wrote: I still think adding an upgrade for the pylon at 50/50 per pylon for being able to warp in is one way to nerf Protoss's insane mobility (I really dislike protoss having the ability to just plant pylons EVERYWHERE i.e. warp in literally anywhere on the map) and make all ins more of an all in.. And plus it would somewhat differentiate warpgates from the gateways. I can certainly see this as a possibility, but that would be balancing something that is broken. Right now the issue is that Protoss have no risk/reward mechanic in the game. They can do whatever they want and be 100% safe in PvT. There should under no circumstances be a proxy build that is risk-less. It was already like this before the oracle change, but the influx of proxy oracles showed us just how non risk the protoss is. The problem of course, is the ridiculous nexus cannon. One of the worst ideas I've seen implemented in RTS. Even at the end of WOL Terrans were basically always 1 rax FE because aggressive options didn't work. Then they added this silly thing. So now they make 2 units behind their pressure/cheese and just roll into late game from there. Let's not balance a broken match. Let's fix it first, then balance it. So this is a 2 step process here: 1) Get rid of the silly nexus cannon. 2) Balance around that. They obviously don't need the cannon to do normal builds. To do these cheeses all-ins that would actually have them make units to survive, and give the Terran an opportunity to counter after a successful hold on oracle or blink, etc. | ||
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Ana_
Finland453 Posts
On December 15 2013 01:29 Iron_ wrote: They obviously don't need the cannon to do normal builds. I want to see you defend terran turbo boost drops without it. | ||
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Qwerty85
Croatia5536 Posts
On December 15 2013 02:26 Ana_ wrote: I want to see you defend terran turbo boost drops without it. There are no turbo boosts in the early game which is when PO is most useful. Fastest drops you can expect in standard macro game are around 10 minutes. At that time protoss will still be on 2 bases and it is a matter of decision making on how to split your units to prevent drops to pick you apart. Solid 2 base turtling protoss shouldn't really take damage from medivac drops. Problem with defending drops comes when protoss is on 3 bases. And by that time you won't really rely on PO anymore because it doesn't stop 2-3 medivacs full of units from doing critical damage. You will need at least 1 HT for feedback (or storm as the bio drops out) and some chargelots. 99% of protoss players do that anyway, despite the nexus canon. | ||
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Iron_
United States389 Posts
On December 15 2013 02:26 Ana_ wrote: I want to see you defend terran turbo boost drops without it. This is one of the sillier arguments I hear about getting rid of the broken nexus cannon. Here are the various things you can defend drops with. 1) Warp in units 2) Templar with feedback to instantly kill/hurt and make usless the medivacs 3) Cannons (which shoot both air and ground, you actually can build those) 4) Phoenix (you can open with an oracle then go into 2-3 phoenix for map control/drop control) Basically 1-2 cannons and 1 templar plus warp in OWNS any medivac drop that isn't a doom drop. I don't understand why people try and make this argument, it holds no water. | ||
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