EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 832
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Usernameffs
Sweden107 Posts
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Elvin
149 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + He was gold and I am a very rusty Diamond player coming back after 1 year. | ||
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starslayer
United States696 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9388 Posts
On December 12 2013 12:35 starslayer wrote: mech is very viable diamond playing diamonds you just need banshees for immortals ghost for emp everything and a ravens ready for tempest switch. but what im having a problem with is blinding cloud needs to be looked at it completely counters mech, and you can say just spread your tanks out but thats if your never going to attack. if you try to attack they just run at you and you either siege and die to blinding cloud or dont and die to what ever. I think they should get rid of the consume ability and raise the energy of blinding cloud and even reduce blinding cloud range. and it wouldnt be that bad since you dont see blinding cloud in any other mu maybe zvp but thats because they dont have enough energy to pull stuff . Only way to beat binding cloud is a critical mass of Vikings. | ||
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ysnake
Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On December 12 2013 12:35 starslayer wrote: mech is very viable diamond playing diamonds you just need banshees for immortals ghost for emp everything and a ravens ready for tempest switch. but what im having a problem with is blinding cloud needs to be looked at it completely counters mech, and you can say just spread your tanks out but thats if your never going to attack. if you try to attack they just run at you and you either siege and die to blinding cloud or dont and die to what ever. I think they should get rid of the consume ability and raise the energy of blinding cloud and even reduce blinding cloud range. and it wouldnt be that bad since you dont see blinding cloud in any other mu maybe zvp but thats because they dont have enough energy to pull stuff . Then you'd render the ability useless. I don't like Blinding Cloud either, but currently, that's the only way Zerg can deal with mech once critical amount of Tanks are out. Anything Zerg has on ground is just completely useless against a huge number of tanks except Swarm Hosts, who are bad as well, if you don't have a critical amount of them. Brood Lords just get laughed at as soon as the Terran sees a Greater Spire. A mix of everything would work (Roaches, Swarm Hosts, Brood Lords), but that means no anti-air, and Vikings would rule supreme there. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 12 2013 19:27 ysnake wrote: Then you'd render the ability useless. I don't like Blinding Cloud either, but currently, that's the only way Zerg can deal with mech once critical amount of Tanks are out. Anything Zerg has on ground is just completely useless against a huge number of tanks except Swarm Hosts, who are bad as well, if you don't have a critical amount of them. Brood Lords just get laughed at as soon as the Terran sees a Greater Spire. A mix of everything would work (Roaches, Swarm Hosts, Brood Lords), but that means no anti-air, and Vikings would rule supreme there. Abduct is good enoug against Mech. Infestors are vgood against Mech. Zerg has plenty of ways to deal with Mech from start to end, blinding cloud is not necessary and currently over the top. | ||
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MiCroLiFe
Norway264 Posts
PROBLEM if opening reaper, you have To little marines to deffend oracel.. if you make enbay + 2 turrets, damn youre behind even if oracle kilsl NOTHING. way more investent early game than the oracle. | ||
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TeeTS
Germany2762 Posts
On December 12 2013 19:27 ysnake wrote: Then you'd render the ability useless. I don't like Blinding Cloud either, but currently, that's the only way Zerg can deal with mech once critical amount of Tanks are out. Anything Zerg has on ground is just completely useless against a huge number of tanks except Swarm Hosts, who are bad as well, if you don't have a critical amount of them. Brood Lords just get laughed at as soon as the Terran sees a Greater Spire. A mix of everything would work (Roaches, Swarm Hosts, Brood Lords), but that means no anti-air, and Vikings would rule supreme there. If that were the case, why the fuck did zerg get not owned by mech in WoL? I mean, Mech got no significant buff with HotS. 0.2 faster attack speed on tanks is nothing compared to the buff on ultralisks vs hellion//hellbats. And the problem with terran early game is, that the production infrastructure is too expensive and takes too long to set up. This makes the race very vulnerable to everything, that is not expected way in advance. | ||
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Ana_
Finland453 Posts
On December 13 2013 06:13 TeeTS wrote: If that were the case, why the fuck did zerg get not owned by mech in WoL? I mean, Mech got no significant buff with HotS. 0.2 faster attack speed on tanks is nothing compared to the buff on ultralisks vs hellion//hellbats. And the problem with terran early game is, that the production infrastructure is too expensive and takes too long to set up. This makes the race very vulnerable to everything, that is not expected way in advance. Infestor was really really really good unit. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 13 2013 06:13 TeeTS wrote: If that were the case, why the fuck did zerg get not owned by mech in WoL? I mean, Mech got no significant buff with HotS. 0.2 faster attack speed on tanks is nothing compared to the buff on ultralisks vs hellion//hellbats. Of course Mech got buffs, e.g. the existance of said hellbats is a direct buff to mech. Tons of other interactions have changed (medivacs, especially in the form of hellbat drops; mutalisks) but I guess the most prominent change is the absence of BL/Infestor which was the way to deal with Mech. Caused by nerfs to the Infestor and buffs to the Thor/Upgrades(Vikings)/Raven. It's simply not the same anymore, zerglingbased play wasn't the best way to deal with Mech in WoL, but I think it was an OK choice. With hellbats in the picture you really have to rely on roaches. The buff to the ultralisk against hellions compared to Wings (and hellions alone from the ground mech arsenal in Wings) is basically traded off with the extra health and damage that hellbats do to them. That's not to say that I think Zerg is in a weak spot or something against Mech (maybe the right place to also mention SHs), but the argument "zerg could deal with it in Wings and not a lot has changed" is simply not true. Everything has changed regarding Mech and its interaction with Zerg. Imo Mech is more defensive now due to the better midgame options of zerg (mutalisk, roach/hydra into viper) but groundbased Mech doesn't autolose to Broodlords and Infestors anymore. | ||
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ChristianS
United States3188 Posts
On December 12 2013 19:27 ysnake wrote: Then you'd render the ability useless. I don't like Blinding Cloud either, but currently, that's the only way Zerg can deal with mech once critical amount of Tanks are out. Anything Zerg has on ground is just completely useless against a huge number of tanks except Swarm Hosts, who are bad as well, if you don't have a critical amount of them. Brood Lords just get laughed at as soon as the Terran sees a Greater Spire. A mix of everything would work (Roaches, Swarm Hosts, Brood Lords), but that means no anti-air, and Vikings would rule supreme there. Not saying blinding cloud needs to be changed, but I do wanna call bullshit on Zerg not having any answer to mech armies. They've dealt with mech since WoL without blinding cloud, they can do it now. Any non-zero number of brood lords already makes any mech army just get destroyed, since the tanks have to either unsiege or friendly fire themselves to death. And good though vikings might be, corruptors are just as good, and Zerg production mechanics are much better suited to making them. I've always liked the idea of making blinding cloud's effect be a range reduction by a constant number rather than a range reduction to 1. Suppose blinding cloud were to reduce the range of units underneath it by 6 – that would make it just as good against the majority of units, and still pretty damn effective against tanks. As it is now you just can't make tank-based armies in the late game. Again, I don't know that this change is desperately needed or anything, it just seems like it would produce a little more dynamic gameplay. | ||
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ysnake
Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On December 13 2013 06:35 ChristianS wrote: Not saying blinding cloud needs to be changed, but I do wanna call bullshit on Zerg not having any answer to mech armies. They've dealt with mech since WoL without blinding cloud, they can do it now. Any non-zero number of brood lords already makes any mech army just get destroyed, since the tanks have to either unsiege or friendly fire themselves to death. And good though vikings might be, corruptors are just as good, and Zerg production mechanics are much better suited to making them. I've always liked the idea of making blinding cloud's effect be a range reduction by a constant number rather than a range reduction to 1. Suppose blinding cloud were to reduce the range of units underneath it by 6 – that would make it just as good against the majority of units, and still pretty damn effective against tanks. As it is now you just can't make tank-based armies in the late game. Again, I don't know that this change is desperately needed or anything, it just seems like it would produce a little more dynamic gameplay. Difference between WoL and HotS mech are very much different. Let me remind you of the differences: - WoL - 4 Upgrades in Armory / HotS - 2 Upgrades in Armory (making an easier time to make a mix of mech+air) - WoL - No Hellbats/Widow Mines or Boostvacs / HotS - Hellbats+Widow Mines as harassment tools (harassment was something mech lacked in WoL, besides Hellion drops who were shut down as soon as Roaches are out or a couple of Spine Crawlers) - WoL - Infestor broken as hell / HotS - Infestor is balanced (main support unit) - WoL - Infestor/Brood Lord as the only way to deal with sieged positions / HotS - Zerg has Swarm Hosts, Brood Lords and Vipers to deal with mech - note, no anti-air I believe the word "mech" should also incorporate air Terran now, as it is much easier to make slow transitions or make an interesting mix of units, as well as the upgrades are now combined. If Jaedong were to write "mech is shit, I deal with it np", I'd trust him, and at the levels he plays, I trust that mech is shit. But at the levels we play (I'm assuming people writing here are Platinum-Masters), mech has a much easier execution than against a competent Zerg player. Blinding Cloud is next to useless against bio, since it just stims out of it and it is a complete counter to mech, I sometimes feel like I cheesed someone when I make 4-5 Vipers and BC the hell out of everything after a 30-40 minute game. I have tried to play without Vipers (I usually don't like spellcasters in my army, I despised Brood Lord/Winfestor), and it is nearly impossible as soon as enough Vikings are out. I still firmly believe if Mech had an option to "burst" down a far-off expansion, like 3-3 bio does, Mech would be very good, currently, all you can do is roast Drones and get the hell out of there. This is where air Terran should come in play. But this all looks good on paper, execution either might be poor, or just lacking something. Since I haven't seen anyone pointing out the actual problems, rather than just picking one ability and fighting over it for 5 pages. | ||
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j00pdaw00p
47 Posts
- P has best early cheese (cannon), much easier to execute than defend. - P has best and laughably ez to execute early defense (photon OC), rendering them essentially completely failsafe; "failsafe" as in P can fuck up their defense then just 1-click their way back into the game. skilless mechanic. only other mechanic that rivals photon OC in terms of defensive/stall capability is FF, bringing me to my next point. - FF makes it so P don't have to think before they engage. don't have to worry bout army movement/positioning/terrain and can just engage whenever they want, completely dictate the engagement by changing the landscape and always get the better engagement. - FF on ramp vZ is bullshit. - P has best harass (oracle, MSC and warp prism/warp-in). proxy is super popular right now and further confines the other races; TvP right now is literally "find the proxy". also basically free maphack and perma-mh if spammed. recall = free hatch snipe, and is another herpderp 1-click failsafe if P gets outpositioned/runs out of FF energy. - P essentially completely dictate the pace of the game, have the most (viable) build options, and the best timings. - skillrays - warpgate/zealot dump harass - buffed warp prism - best splash - strongest deathball/lategame - sim city - lowest APM/micro/skill requirement basically P has strongest everything. also most protoss games are hella boring to watch. i dread everytime theres a P in a final, cuz it usually makes for bad/boring final. | ||
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VeTerrAn1
Switzerland39 Posts
Also the All ins are very easy to execute, there are so many diffrent openings. At the current state of Protoss, i really think its broken on ladder, and this leads to the death of Terran race. So many friends switch races or play random as i do ... i mean last game i had about 160 apm, and lost to a platin Toss with 45 apm, he played archon/zealot timing from 2 bases, i was ahead in army value on 3rd base but he just a moved my army to hell, this is not balance !! because i have to micro my units so fucking stupid, whereas the toss just amove ... no spells in his army but can beat ground and air with ease .... ;( this sucks hard! | ||
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ChristianS
United States3188 Posts
On December 13 2013 13:45 ysnake wrote: Difference between WoL and HotS mech are very much different. Let me remind you of the differences: - WoL - 4 Upgrades in Armory / HotS - 2 Upgrades in Armory (making an easier time to make a mix of mech+air) - WoL - No Hellbats/Widow Mines or Boostvacs / HotS - Hellbats+Widow Mines as harassment tools (harassment was something mech lacked in WoL, besides Hellion drops who were shut down as soon as Roaches are out or a couple of Spine Crawlers) - WoL - Infestor broken as hell / HotS - Infestor is balanced (main support unit) - WoL - Infestor/Brood Lord as the only way to deal with sieged positions / HotS - Zerg has Swarm Hosts, Brood Lords and Vipers to deal with mech - note, no anti-air I believe the word "mech" should also incorporate air Terran now, as it is much easier to make slow transitions or make an interesting mix of units, as well as the upgrades are now combined. If Jaedong were to write "mech is shit, I deal with it np", I'd trust him, and at the levels he plays, I trust that mech is shit. But at the levels we play (I'm assuming people writing here are Platinum-Masters), mech has a much easier execution than against a competent Zerg player. Blinding Cloud is next to useless against bio, since it just stims out of it and it is a complete counter to mech, I sometimes feel like I cheesed someone when I make 4-5 Vipers and BC the hell out of everything after a 30-40 minute game. I have tried to play without Vipers (I usually don't like spellcasters in my army, I despised Brood Lord/Winfestor), and it is nearly impossible as soon as enough Vikings are out. I still firmly believe if Mech had an option to "burst" down a far-off expansion, like 3-3 bio does, Mech would be very good, currently, all you can do is roast Drones and get the hell out of there. This is where air Terran should come in play. But this all looks good on paper, execution either might be poor, or just lacking something. Since I haven't seen anyone pointing out the actual problems, rather than just picking one ability and fighting over it for 5 pages. To be clear, I was calling bullshit on the claim that "blinding cloud is the only way Zerg can deal with mech" – that's a very strong and baseless claim. Both Terran mech and Zerg responses to it are different since WoL, but mech is hardly game-breaking. Rather than just building the unit that counters mech and winning, fighting mech used to involve a lot of cool tactical play – trying to attack where the mech army isn't, pulling Terran out of position with harassment, flanking the tanks or forcing an unsiege and then running in. That changed when the answer to basically everything became "just build broodlord infestor and kill his army." Now broodlord infestor is gone, but the new answer to mech is "just build vipers and kill his army," and it's so unbelievably effective that any tank-based strategy basically has to kill Zerg before hive. If you want to know the problem, I'll phrase it in terms of OP's templates, although it's not strictly a balance issue. Problem: Blinding cloud absolutely devastates siege tanks, and there is relatively little room to micro or maneuver mech effectively to eke out a win against blinding cloud. Since tank armies are generally late-game focused and rely on critical mass, trying to hit before hive isn't especially effective. Such a strategy would be extremely all-in, since if Zerg survives until vipers Terran doesn't have the infrastructure to make any other kind of army. The effect is that blinding cloud in its current state effectively removes mech as a viable strategic possibility. In its current form, blinding cloud is so strong against some units in TvZ that it almost entirely removes them from viable play, while against the rest of units it and the other viper abilities so mediocre that the inclusion of vipers in your army would probably be a mistake. That means not only are tanks effectively erased from competitive play – so are vipers. Solution: Blinding cloud could be altered to reduce the range of units under its area of effect by a set number, rather than reducing everything to 0. If that number were high enough, blinding cloud would function identically against the majority of units in Starcraft II, and would still be fairly strong against the rest. If blinding cloud reduced tank range from 13 to, say, 5, it would still be an extremely strong answer to mech armies, without effectively turning them to useless supply. With a range reduction of 8, most other units would be unaffected. Only the siege tank, colossus, and thor air attack have sufficient range to hit further than melee distance under an 8-reduction blinding cloud. Side Effects: Since the colossus change is so small as to be almost completely negligible, PvZ would likely be unaffected, and ZvZ has no units which would function differently under such a change. TvZ would likely include a lot more tank-based plays, including mech as well as bio+mech. Possibly without the hard viper counter, mech or bio+mech could be too powerful, but this could be addressed by reverting some of the mech buffs attempted in the recent past (such as the combining of air and mech upgrades or the siege tank attack speed buff). | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25396 Posts
I am up for destructible forcefields. Make them have high HP so they're not useless in battle, not have targeting priority so they don't fuck up damage. You should NOT be able to forcefield ramps offensively in a way that Zergs cannot do anything and instant lose. It's a complete nonsense. | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On December 13 2013 21:35 Wombat_NI wrote: Protoss allins are a lot harder to execute than people make out. Not all of them mind but some of the whine coming about Protoss builds are retarded. I am up for destructible forcefields. Make them have high HP so they're not useless in battle, not have targeting priority so they don't fuck up damage. You should NOT be able to forcefield ramps offensively in a way that Zergs cannot do anything and instant lose. It's a complete nonsense. I agree. A big part of defending/executing Protoss all-in's is forcing the opponent to respond in a certain way. Defending Zealot/Archon all in's are stupid hard if you don't build your wall the right way, but if you do, it becomes a LOT easier. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25396 Posts
It's also an area where Protoss and Terran players are MILES ahead of the average Zerg. Building placement is so critical for them, especially vZ that we've acquired many a trick. Hopefully they can refine things a bit and mitigate some of our harassment tools, there are ways. I'd tell you some but I quite enjoy killing completely naked tech buildings with warped in Zealots  | ||
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TheManInBlack
Nigeria266 Posts
And then they can do it similar to how they do in CoD when an enemy Terran builds an AC-130. Zerg: "ENEMY AC-130 DETECTED! WE MUST DESTROY IT FOR THE SURVIVAL OF THE SWARM!" Protoss: "AN ENEMY AC-130 CLOSES! IT MUST BE DESTROYED EN TARO ADUN!" Terran: "ENEMY AC-130 INBOUND! WE'RE FUCKED!" I think it would be good for Terrans to have a hero unit that has utility such as an AC-130. | ||
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ysnake
Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On December 13 2013 22:31 TheManInBlack wrote: I've always wondered why they didn't give Terrans the equivalent of an AC-130.. That's the most icon gunship in almost any game and I think it should replace the Battlecruiser since the Battlecruiser is a spaceship. And then they can do it similar to how they do in CoD when an enemy Terran builds an AC-130. Zerg: "ENEMY AC-130 DETECTED! WE MUST DESTROY IT FOR THE SURVIVAL OF THE SWARM!" Protoss: "AN ENEMY AC-130 CLOSES! IT MUST BE DESTROYED EN TARO ADUN!" Terran: "ENEMY AC-130 INBOUND! WE'RE FUCKED!" I think it would be good for Terrans to have a hero unit that has utility such as an AC-130. So, Zergs get to call Kerrigan and Protoss' get to call in the Golden Armada? | ||
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