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On December 12 2013 02:23 ffadicted wrote:
TBH anyone that thinks that P>T right now more than T was ever > P in WoL is just either new to SC, doesn't/didn't really watch pro play, or is just plain biased.
Not ever in WoL but since 2011.
Statistically PvT was without a doubt more balanced matchup in WoL. PvZ was generally Zerg favoured, TvZ was T favoured and then Z favoured.
Even when you look at famous 1-1-1 era P was actually doing worse againts Zerg at that time.
If you wann dig dipper
- In Korea you can definitely make argument that T had bigger advantage than P has now
- For foreign scene i dont think you can make this argument
- For ladder you surely can't make this argument.
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On December 12 2013 02:23 ffadicted wrote:
TBH anyone that thinks that P>T right now more than T was ever > P in WoL is just either new to SC, doesn't/didn't really watch pro play, or is just plain biased.
Why is this even a point of discussion?
Former horseshit balance doesn't excuse current one.
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On December 12 2013 03:22 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2013 02:23 ffadicted wrote:
TBH anyone that thinks that P>T right now more than T was ever > P in WoL is just either new to SC, doesn't/didn't really watch pro play, or is just plain biased. Why is this even a point of discussion? Former horseshit balance doesn't excuse current one.
But you must first repent of your previous sins, my son; only then will the Protoss conclave, in its mercy, forgive you and allow you to have a fair game.
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But you must first repent of your previous sins, my son; only then will the Protoss conclave, in its mercy, forgive you and allow you to have a fair game.
HAHAHHAHAHA I guess They want the same results for Toss then They'll balance it hahahaha
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How about a cheaper armory to help TvP?
you get earlier +2 bio upgrades
you get earlier hellbat, which some people use with bio
you get earlier mech upgrades, which helps viking, medivac, and hellbat
you get earlier mech army and upgrades if someone try to use mech in TvP
It's a very simple and minimal change but it surely does a lot.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On December 12 2013 04:37 larse wrote:
How about a cheaper armory to help TvP?
you get earlier +2 bio upgrades
you get earlier hellbat, which some people use with bio
you get earlier mech upgrades, which helps viking, medivac, and hellbat
you get earlier mech army and upgrades if someone try to use mech in TvP
It's a very simple and minimal change but it surely does a lot.
Yes, because Terrans already have a hard time reaching 3-3 before Zerg in TvZ.
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On December 12 2013 03:51 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2013 03:22 Bagi wrote:On December 12 2013 02:23 ffadicted wrote:
TBH anyone that thinks that P>T right now more than T was ever > P in WoL is just either new to SC, doesn't/didn't really watch pro play, or is just plain biased. Why is this even a point of discussion? Former horseshit balance doesn't excuse current one. But you must first repent of your previous sins, my son; only then will the Protoss conclave, in its mercy, forgive you and allow you to have a fair game.
Aaaand theeeen, we shaaaall haaaave..... peaaace
+ Show Spoiler +
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On December 12 2013 04:37 larse wrote:
How about a cheaper armory to help TvP?
you get earlier +2 bio upgrades
you get earlier hellbat, which some people use with bio
you get earlier mech upgrades, which helps viking, medivac, and hellbat
you get earlier mech army and upgrades if someone try to use mech in TvP
It's a very simple and minimal change but it surely does a lot.
I've heard this suggested, by avilo I think? 100/50 armories like they were in BW.
It would certainly help mech early game, putting down double armories is a huge risk in case of Z/P decides to do an all in off 2 base.
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On December 12 2013 04:37 larse wrote:
How about a cheaper armory to help TvP?
you get earlier +2 bio upgrades
you get earlier hellbat, which some people use with bio
you get earlier mech upgrades, which helps viking, medivac, and hellbat
you get earlier mech army and upgrades if someone try to use mech in TvP
It's a very simple and minimal change but it surely does a lot.
I think it's a decent change for TvT Mech play and not really too different for bio I guess. You get the armory before 1-1 is finished anyways, so upgrade timings shouldn't change for bio TvZ, so the difference should basically just be the difference in money (and what Terran does with the extra 50/50).
Though I definitely don't think that it really helps Mech in TvP and doesn't achieve a lot for Mech TvZ, since for neither of those matchups the exact upgrade amounts are that crucial. There are simply not those huge differences like in TvZ (Marine vs Zergling with a single upgrade making up to 20% difference in dps) or bio TvT (Marine vs Marine a single upgrade making 16% difference in dps). Nor are there any gamechanging relationships like zealot/roach+1 vs zerglings I think (?)*.
I'd much rather have a meaningful tank- or thorchange. (but I guess... who doesn't...)
*yeah, tanks vs zerglings. But with +1 attack this should be over, and zerglings are not really a big problem for Mech with Hellions, Hellbats, Mines and Tanks all being good either way against them.
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I've always maintained that the maps are absolute trash.
Make 3rd's and 4th's harder to get, bring back cliffs & overlooking ledges, decrease (drastically) the rush distance so Terrans can allin & Zergs can bust without autolosing, natural ramps wider and ffs remove all the dead "void" space on maps like Star Station where medivacs, Mutalisks and Protoss/Air can run to without being caught.
If you want to get your comfortable 200/200 ball, you're going to have to work for it and not abuse poor map layout to aid you in your camping.
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On December 12 2013 07:06 TheManInBlack wrote:
I've always maintained that the maps are absolute trash.
Make 3rd's and 4th's harder to get, bring back cliffs & overlooking ledges, decrease (drastically) the rush distance so Terrans can allin & Zergs can bust without autolosing, natural ramps wider and ffs remove all the dead "void" space on maps like Star Station where medivacs, Mutalisks and Protoss/Air can run to without being caught.
If you want to get your comfortable 200/200 ball, you're going to have to work for it and not abuse poor map layout to aid you in your camping.
But then people will whine that Protoss only 2base allins.
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Northern Ireland27281 Posts
I like map variety, make different types of map. So fuck if they are asymetrically balanced.
Make a bigger map pool and STOP rotating good maps out for no particular reason.
Now, they weren't amazing maps all of the time, but I liked the adjustments in style beyond the current 2 base allin/is this map safe to take a third on that seems to be what passes for variety. A map like Xel'Naga Caverns played radically different from a Tal'Darim. Metalopolis had some cool weirdness to it, etc etc. There were cool map-specific tank/medivac plays on Shakuras.
Currently it seems there's some checklist as to what makes an optimal map, and they're sticking to it.
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Guys, i have figured out how to balance TvP. Terran just needs to switch to protoss. Then win rates will be 50% again cos PvP is just a build order coin flip game. gogogogogo for the sake of balance
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On December 12 2013 07:12 Ana_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2013 07:06 TheManInBlack wrote:
I've always maintained that the maps are absolute trash.
Make 3rd's and 4th's harder to get, bring back cliffs & overlooking ledges, decrease (drastically) the rush distance so Terrans can allin & Zergs can bust without autolosing, natural ramps wider and ffs remove all the dead "void" space on maps like Star Station where medivacs, Mutalisks and Protoss/Air can run to without being caught.
If you want to get your comfortable 200/200 ball, you're going to have to work for it and not abuse poor map layout to aid you in your camping. But then people will whine that Protoss only 2base allins.
If that becomes a problem we can balance accordingly, helping protoss to defend harder to acquire bases and weaken their all ins (hello nerf to warpgate build times and hello buff to gateway buff times after Warpgate Research - hello having to make a choice!).
Msc allows for fast tech and maybe needing some sentries to secure the third is all we really need?
We can't ignore the possibility just because it MIGHT cause certain problems.
On December 12 2013 07:32 Wombat_NI wrote:
I like map variety, make different types of map. So fuck if they are asymetrically balanced.
Make a bigger map pool and STOP rotating good maps out for no particular reason.
Now, they weren't amazing maps all of the time, but I liked the adjustments in style beyond the current 2 base allin/is this map safe to take a third on that seems to be what passes for variety. A map like Xel'Naga Caverns played radically different from a Tal'Darim. Metalopolis had some cool weirdness to it, etc etc. There were cool map-specific tank/medivac plays on Shakuras.
Currently it seems there's some checklist as to what makes an optimal map, and they're sticking to it.
Checklist:
- space between third and second to keep the army so it can always defend both bases easilly
- Preferably in a triangle shape or agaisnt the edge of the map to minimize air space
- lots of unpathable terrain for mutalisk/medivacs
- watchtowers that cover the entire map
- rush distances long enough to spawn zerglings and morph them into banelings afterwards
- easy to defend naturals with tiny chokes that are nearly undamagable without going for a HARD all in
Something like this?
Eliminate 2/3 of these for your new map and it plays sooooo differently.
Less rush distance, more attack paths, less big open spaces, harder thirds/forths, less random watchtowers covering all attack paths!!!!
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Northern Ireland27281 Posts
Less fucking pointless DEAD AIR, argh!
I mean seriously, I remember playing XNC completely different to almost every other in PvT and PvZ back in the day, I miss having to actually you know, tweak my play.
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United Kingdom12047 Posts
On December 12 2013 07:32 Wombat_NI wrote:
I like map variety, make different types of map. So fuck if they are asymetrically balanced.
Make a bigger map pool and STOP rotating good maps out for no particular reason.
Now, they weren't amazing maps all of the time, but I liked the adjustments in style beyond the current 2 base allin/is this map safe to take a third on that seems to be what passes for variety. A map like Xel'Naga Caverns played radically different from a Tal'Darim. Metalopolis had some cool weirdness to it, etc etc. There were cool map-specific tank/medivac plays on Shakuras.
Currently it seems there's some checklist as to what makes an optimal map, and they're sticking to it.
Some maps with deadspace are good though since it promotes more airplay. It's all about a mix as you say.
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Northern Ireland27281 Posts
Tbh anything that isn't 'easy to defend natural + third' with chokes everywhere so bad players who play the same way every game can have their 'macro' games.
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On December 12 2013 08:16 Wombat_NI wrote:
Less fucking pointless DEAD AIR, argh!
I mean seriously, I remember playing XNC completely different to almost every other in PvT and PvZ back in the day, I miss having to actually you know, tweak my play.
To be fair, this was all happening because frankly the situation was fucking miles worse than what is being bitched about by avilo and co here. The races aren't designed well enough and some of them just collapse without enough gas. The third easy expo had to exist because a zerg could easily just build a pack of mutas and amove around unless a toss had the eco to tech into something to deal with it (I feel like the roach max used to have some small influence as well).
It would be NICE to have a viable set of diverse maps but if balance rates go to shit again then it's just as bad. Bit risky to try it though with how the WCS points work. One bad season could hurt. The game simply isn't well designed enough to work in weird conditions.
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Northern Ireland27281 Posts
It's papering over cracks that are caused by not looking at core race design, which you mentioned as being somewhat flawed.
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On December 12 2013 08:30 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2013 08:16 Wombat_NI wrote:
Less fucking pointless DEAD AIR, argh!
I mean seriously, I remember playing XNC completely different to almost every other in PvT and PvZ back in the day, I miss having to actually you know, tweak my play. To be fair, this was all happening because frankly the situation was fucking miles worse than what is being bitched about by avilo and co here. The races aren't designed well enough and some of them just collapse without enough gas. The third easy expo had to exist because a zerg could easily just build a pack of mutas and amove around unless a toss had the eco to tech into something to deal with it (I feel like the roach max used to have some small influence as well). It would be NICE to have a viable set of diverse maps but if balance rates go to shit again then it's just as bad. Bit risky to try it though with how the WCS points work. One bad season could hurt. The game simply isn't well designed enough to work in weird conditions.
We don't get different maps because the second we get something 'different' half the community instantly hates on everything blizzard and they are retarded and stupid and blind and idiots.
Alterzim Stronghold plays out quite funilly, but look at the posts over here about it. Whirlwind was a kind of map that had a reasonably open third and multiple attack paths, a map that gave you vulnerability when you expanded, it is gone now.
Akilon was the complete opposite: turtle haven! Easy 4 bases! This map played out a ton different from other regular maps.
Yeonsu kinda does this, but poorly executed, the map is really chokey with a lot of attack paths, but all those paths come together between bases, not at bases, making defending quite easilly from one position.
Ask yourself this: Do you REALLY feel like playing a different map or are there just some different textures and slight changes in cliff formations when you play Starstation/Frost/Polar Night/Yeonsu/Derelict? To me they feel more and more like the same thing, just slightly altered.
You could refer to it as the 'Daybreak Syndrom' - this concept was pulled off so well with Daybreak every map now follows it.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Z64XOrg.png)
