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On December 11 2013 13:14 willyallthewei wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 13:10 vthree wrote:On December 11 2013 12:58 willyallthewei wrote:On December 11 2013 12:33 Faust852 wrote:On December 11 2013 12:09 Plansix wrote:On December 11 2013 11:15 Faust852 wrote:On December 11 2013 10:34 willyallthewei wrote:On December 11 2013 09:24 Faust852 wrote:
Protoss after ebay block :"meh, i'll put 3 gates". Terran scout 3 gates, lose his reaper, put 3 bunkers on his chock. In the meantime, protoss kill the ebay, drop his expand, and guess what, he's ahead ! ,)) lol. Against a decent protoss player you can't save your reaper after the second scout. You can't scout the nexus at the natural after an ebay block? I am willing to accept that the Protoss can hide a lot of tech, but a nexus at the natural is pretty easy to confirm. Even a scan will have a 100% success rate as long as you drop it a reasonable time after the protoss takes out the Ebay. I have watched a lot of SC2 and I have never seen any protoss be that successful at denying information. Usually, when you do the second scout with the reaper, it will die : you jump, see the 3 gates, and the reaper die to the MSC and stalkers. You can't see the nexus afterward since the reaper is dead, so you need to scan, but you can't because you need all the ressource possible to hold the potential 3gates/SG that is coming. i guess if the terran were blind and afk from the game he could possibly lose his reaper. Generally speaking its really really hard to lose a reaper unless you're not looking at it. Nothing toss has can really chase it down unless oracles burn energy or you have 2 phoenix to lift it. It depends, if you are only checking the natural and the edges of the Protoss base, you are right. But if you want to see if the protoss has any hidden tech behind the mineral lines, you will likely lose the reaper is stalker and MSC are in position. Yeah toss can zone the terran out but i don't know how that's relevant in this context because we are talking about a situation where the terran is responding to the discovery of a proxied stargate with a full engy block, etc.
honestly I'm still not sure why people are wasting time talking about this. Is this something that happens really that often that we have to theorycraft if a reaper is gonna die while scouting a 3 gate?
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This may be a bit controversial opinion but I feel like design is the main problem of protoss. Protoss is not really a pro race it is more a ladder race. When protoss is balanced they can't compete on pro level, when they get buffed to much, they can compete just fine on pro level (at the moment even better than fine with 5/10 latest premier tournaments being won by protoss), but then they start to dominate on the ladder.
Terran and zerg are much more "pro races" than protoss because they are more straight-forward and focused on great mechanics, while protoss is focused on following build orders, turtling and deathballs.
Top tier terrans and zergs could overcome such defensive play so protoss was less successful in WoL. As a result, Blizzard balanced them artificially - by making their turtling stronger so that it is even harder to pick them apart until they get to their comfort zone.
Blizzard also believes that giving protoss more harassment options will somehow encourage more terran-esque play and less turtling into deathballs. But more early game harassment options combined with their defensive unit (MSC) also being good for offensive play just created more all in opportunities for protoss. So with protoss it is always about extremes.
The fact remains that protoss is still rewarded by playing passive in a standard macro game because getting that deathball and moving out at 200/200 is still the protoss comfort zone. Making oracles faster or DTs cheaper or blink stronger won't change that.
Correct way to redesign protoss would be to make the deathball weaker, to make their defensive advantage weaker but to make their units benefit more from micro and high multitasking. And of course to keep the harassment potential.
But this is something that obviously can't be done in Hots but only in a new expansion like Lotv, but I doubt that Blizzard will be brave enough to do such drastic changes.
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On December 11 2013 17:22 Qwerty85 wrote:
This may be a bit controversial opinion but I feel like design is the main problem of protoss. Protoss is not really a pro race it is more a ladder race. When protoss is balanced they can't compete on pro level, when they get buffed to much, they can compete just fine on pro level (at the moment even better than fine with 5/10 latest premier tournaments being won by protoss), but then they start to dominate on the ladder.
Terran and zerg are much more "pro races" than protoss because they are more straight-forward and focused on great mechanics, while protoss is focused on following build orders, turtling and deathballs.
Top tier terrans and zergs could overcome such defensive play so protoss was less successful in WoL. As a result, Blizzard balanced them artificially - by making their turtling stronger so that it is even harder to pick them apart until they get to their comfort zone.
Blizzard also believes that giving protoss more harassment options will somehow encourage more terran-esque play and less turtling into deathballs. But more early game harassment options combined with their defensive unit (MSC) also being good for offensive play just created more all in opportunities for protoss. So with protoss it is always about extremes.
The fact remains that protoss is still rewarded by playing passive in a standard macro game because getting that deathball and moving out at 200/200 is still the protoss comfort zone. Making oracles faster or DTs cheaper or blink stronger won't change that.
Correct way to redesign protoss would be to make the deathball weaker, to make their defensive advantage weaker but to make their units benefit more from micro and high multitasking. And of course to keep the harassment potential.
But this is something that obviously can't be done in Hots but only in a new expansion like Lotv, but I doubt that Blizzard will be brave enough to do such drastic changes.
I think that's not a really uncommon argument, it's just how do you do it?
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"I remember watching GSL and at the time Huk just won MLG and he went up against a Korean terran that only did 1-1-1 at the time, Huk scouted and hard counter prepared for it and couldn't stop it, and he was very good at the time."
One player scouted, prepared for it, but still lost to it? Sounds familiar for some reason...
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Northern Ireland27093 Posts
That's not controversial Qwerty that's bang on the money!
Get rid of warpgate in its current form. Change the MsC from its current form. Tis a start
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On December 11 2013 19:59 Wombat_NI wrote:
That's not controversial Qwerty that's bang on the money!
Get rid of warpgate in its current form. Change the MsC from its current form. Tis a start
Sadly Blizzard will never change warpgate, it's too big of a change and it will take ages to balance the whole thing.
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If only Protoss had gateway and warp gate viable like how Terran has to juggle addons. That'd be so cool to see.
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Northern Ireland27093 Posts
True. I'll make my WG thread one of these days Chaggi, have no fear.
In the interim I imagine Blizz will settle for their new 'make everything fast' approach. Expect to see Thors zooming around soon
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On December 11 2013 20:21 Wombat_NI wrote:
True. I'll make my WG thread one of these days Chaggi, have no fear.
In the interim I imagine Blizz will settle for their new 'make everything fast' approach. Expect to see Thors zooming around soon
I can see it now.
We have noticed a slight increase in mutalisk use in the TvZ MU, at the cost of other units such as the Swarm Host. We want to encourage multiple playstyles, so we are buffing the movement speed of thors to 3.33, to better help combat the mutalisk and to encourage mech use generally.
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On December 11 2013 20:30 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 20:21 Wombat_NI wrote:
True. I'll make my WG thread one of these days Chaggi, have no fear.
In the interim I imagine Blizz will settle for their new 'make everything fast' approach. Expect to see Thors zooming around soon I can see it now. Show nested quote +We have noticed a slight increase in mutalisk use in the TvZ MU, at the cost of other units such as the Swarm Host. We want to encourage multiple playstyles, so we are buffing the movement speed of thors to 3.33, to better help combat the mutalisk and to encourage mech use generally.
You can now put hellions under Thor's feet ! It works like rollers.
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On December 11 2013 20:21 Wombat_NI wrote:
True. I'll make my WG thread one of these days Chaggi, have no fear.
In the interim I imagine Blizz will settle for their new 'make everything fast' approach. Expect to see Thors zooming around soon
Next up: building fly speed
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On December 11 2013 20:36 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 20:30 Ghanburighan wrote:On December 11 2013 20:21 Wombat_NI wrote:
True. I'll make my WG thread one of these days Chaggi, have no fear.
In the interim I imagine Blizz will settle for their new 'make everything fast' approach. Expect to see Thors zooming around soon I can see it now. We have noticed a slight increase in mutalisk use in the TvZ MU, at the cost of other units such as the Swarm Host. We want to encourage multiple playstyles, so we are buffing the movement speed of thors to 3.33, to better help combat the mutalisk and to encourage mech use generally. You can now put hellions under Thor's feet ! It works like rollers. Attach like 6+ phoenix to a carrier and fly it around like Santa's sleigh.
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HAHAHAHA the past like 6 posts are hilarious LOLOLOL
I don't know how they would "compensate" for not having WG what would be your suggestion or just having a differnt type of WG what are your thoughts Wombat?
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On December 11 2013 23:39 Pirfiktshon wrote:
HAHAHAHA the past like 6 posts are hilarious LOLOLOL
I don't know how they would "compensate" for not having WG what would be your suggestion or just having a differnt type of WG what are your thoughts Wombat?
Realisticly, this will never happen in Hots and even for LoV I would be highly sceptical on reworking warpgate and sentry.
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On December 11 2013 16:02 willyallthewei wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 14:58 painkilla wrote:On December 11 2013 14:31 keglu wrote:On December 11 2013 05:32 ffadicted wrote:On December 11 2013 05:21 keglu wrote:On December 11 2013 04:45 playa wrote:
Even in WoL when t vs p stats were heavily in favor of terran every month, all you ever heard was terran players crying about how unfair the matchup was. They had the audacity to play victim... despite never having a month with percentages in tosses favor? I And that happened when exactly? You must be new to starcraft II lol Yeah lol, now just point out when axactly this happened :"when t vs p stats were heavily in favor of terran every month" Thanks in advance. It never happened. The Korean terrans were dominating code S, but as far as foreigners is concerned, terran is still UP. That's why Artosis said : there's terrans and there's Korean terrans. The best NA player for a while in early WOL was Select. The Best EU player for a while was Empire happy, and then it was Lucifron for a while too. These are all Terrans. The most impressive GSL results by any foreigner was by Jinro, a Terran vs. MC who was on a massive win streak at the time and looked unbeatable.
Based on what, ladder position, because surely not based on tournament results
You can argue each individual result and how there were meta game shifts etc., etc., but there is no denying that foreign Terrans have more results than a lot of people give them credit for. Ultimately, yeah korean Terrans were even better than foreign terrans, but that's true with everything starcraft. Korea > your face.
There is no denying?
Let me presentt some statistics instead of subjective feeling about success rate of foreign players
From start of 2011 (earlier T was obviously broken) Premier tournaments TOP 2 finishes for non Korean
T : 3 (from 69 Total T TOP2 finishes) = 4%
P: 18(from 72 Total) = 25%
Z: 16 (from 83 total) = 19%
So nope it's not just about Korean>others.
And on the point of WOL terran balance, it was absurdly Terran favored at one point with 1-1-1 in PvT and blue flame helion LOL builds in TvZ.
I remember watching GSL and at the time Huk just won MLG and he went up against a Korean terran that only did 1-1-1 at the time, Huk scouted and hard counter prepared for it and couldn't stop it, and he was very good at the time.
The guy he beat was an overwhelming under dog and was a one trick pony if i remember correctly. Still impossible to beat on TDA it was just grueling to watch. Yes, absolutely there was a point in WOL for many months where PvT was imba. To say anything else is flat denial.
Poor Huk. Funny part is that based on Aligulac, during 1-1-1 era TvP was never more T favoured than PvT is currently P favoured. So what would you say to that?
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On December 12 2013 01:40 Ana_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 23:39 Pirfiktshon wrote:
HAHAHAHA the past like 6 posts are hilarious LOLOLOL
I don't know how they would "compensate" for not having WG what would be your suggestion or just having a differnt type of WG what are your thoughts Wombat? Realisticly, this will never happen in Hots and even for LoV I would be highly sceptical on reworking warpgate and sentry.
Sentries are honestly fine in HotS. Not really a design problem with the unit. The problem has switched over to the MsC I feel.
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On December 12 2013 02:03 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2013 01:40 Ana_ wrote:On December 11 2013 23:39 Pirfiktshon wrote:
HAHAHAHA the past like 6 posts are hilarious LOLOLOL
I don't know how they would "compensate" for not having WG what would be your suggestion or just having a differnt type of WG what are your thoughts Wombat? Realisticly, this will never happen in Hots and even for LoV I would be highly sceptical on reworking warpgate and sentry. Sentries are honestly fine in HotS. Not really a design problem with the unit. The problem has switched over to the MsC I feel.
I don't think you see the Z perspective on sentries  There have still been plenty of ramp-FF wins in HotS.
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TBH anyone that thinks that P>T right now more than T was ever > P in WoL is just either new to SC, doesn't/didn't really watch pro play, or is just plain biased.
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Yea i think for the $ you get so much utility out of one unit LOL at first I thought it was warranted in PvZ but honestly it opens up aggressive options that should not be there and make it considerably difficult for even Top Zergs to defend All ins by lesser protoss players.....
in PvT It makes you WAAAAYYYYY to safe like Bullet proof for early stages of the game to the point the only thing that can do damage is WM drop and thats not even guaranteed as a good protoss just PO Main Keeps 1-2 Stalkers in Nat to defend against Hellions thats GG..... Minimal losses taken especially with the nerf.... I just don't know man I really would like a Protoss' rendition as to what A Terran can do about MSC besides eat it..... so feel free to pull out your torch and pitch forks Protoss on this one I would LOVE to hear your opinions....
Edit: *** And the Crickets Chirp ****
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On December 12 2013 02:23 ffadicted wrote:
TBH anyone that thinks that P>T right now more than T was ever > P in WoL is just either new to SC, doesn't/didn't really watch pro play, or is just plain biased.
Or is paying attention to the stats apparently...?
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EPT
