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On December 11 2013 09:00 willyallthewei wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 08:58 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:On December 11 2013 08:54 willyallthewei wrote:On December 11 2013 08:49 TheDwf wrote:On December 11 2013 08:38 willyallthewei wrote:
you guys who are opening reaper vs. oracle are doing it wrong if you end up even after a deflection, you should end up ahead with an engy bay in his natural and a reaper in his main shooting his probes while he's slowly killing the engy bay with his mama core.
There should be 2 turrets almost entirely up when the oracle arrives, and 2 marines with 2 building that you can then walk across the map and annoy him further with.
You should be ahead, otherwise, you're doing it wrong. You cannot freely attack his Probes since his first Stalker will simply repel your Reaper. Protoss doesn't care much about the EB block since he doesn't expand before 5'30 - 5'45 anyway when going 1gS expand, so the EB makes little difference in the end, and only further cripples your build which is already disrupted by the need of early Turrets and a Bunker. The bolded part clearly shows that you don't play Terran. Not only this 4 Marines poke threatens absolutely nothing, but you will just lose them for free against Stalkers or the Oracle, and it's simply game over if he goes 3gS all-in afterwards. He has to kill the engy bay right? What does he shoot it with? By the time the stlaker pops the engy bay is almost done so what Im talking about is zoning out any probes that try to bother ur proxy engy bay building scv. I didn't mean moving across the map with the first 4 marines immediately, i mean walking there as his nexus is getting up. Once you have turrets up you can walk across the map w/ marines. His nexus is later; thus, you can hit a timing before the planetary nexus kicks in since the natural isn't done building. If toss goes 3 gates you will see that w/ the reaper, then you don't have to move out w/ the marines at all. so just to be clear here you build 2 engeneering bays by the 4 minute mark? No that's the key to why you are ahead, you build only 1.
The entire plan relies on the P skipping his zealot. A hope based strategy? Well, it's not worse than the others available in the MU 
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
You'll have an engi bay that delayed his nexus and lets you get turrets, which you'll need to rebuild in order to get +1 for any subsequent medivac pressures.
In the interim Protoss can just like, NOT go for Oracles and turtle up, drop some forges and pull further ahead in upgrades than they would be in a normal scenario surely?
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jesus christ man do I have to show you guys the build order?
This is well known in meta, why do i have to sit here and explain this shit.
1.) SCV SCOUT.
2.) COUNT PYLONS
3.) Engy block
4.) scout w/ reaper for the type of proxy
5.) Finish engy bay if you see stargate
6.) 2 turrets
You don't pressure w/ the marines unless he's selling out to get the expansion up, and no, you don't walk across the map w/ 4 marines.
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On December 11 2013 08:54 willyallthewei wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 08:49 TheDwf wrote:On December 11 2013 08:38 willyallthewei wrote:
you guys who are opening reaper vs. oracle are doing it wrong if you end up even after a deflection, you should end up ahead with an engy bay in his natural and a reaper in his main shooting his probes while he's slowly killing the engy bay with his mama core.
There should be 2 turrets almost entirely up when the oracle arrives, and 2 marines with 2 building that you can then walk across the map and annoy him further with.
You should be ahead, otherwise, you're doing it wrong. You cannot freely attack his Probes since his first Stalker will simply repel your Reaper. Protoss doesn't care much about the EB block since he doesn't expand before 5'30 - 5'45 anyway when going 1gS expand, so the EB makes little difference in the end, and only further cripples your build which is already disrupted by the need of early Turrets and a Bunker. The bolded part clearly shows that you don't play Terran. Not only this 4 Marines poke threatens absolutely nothing, but you will just lose them for free against Stalkers or the Oracle, and it's simply game over if he goes 3gS all-in afterwards. He has to kill the engy bay right? What does he shoot it with? By the time the stlaker pops the engy bay is almost done so what Im talking about is zoning out any probes that try to bother ur proxy engy bay building scv. I didn't mean moving across the map with the first 4 marines immediately, i mean walking there as his nexus is getting up. Once you have turrets up you can walk across the map w/ marines. His nexus is later; thus, you can hit a timing before the planetary nexus kicks in since the natural isn't done building. If toss goes 3 gates you will see that w/ the reaper, then you don't have to move out w/ the marines at all.
He kills it with his MSC and the second Stalker coming from his gate. Moving out on the map with a few Marines is, again, completely pointless; even with no Nexus ready at his natural, the MSC (Time Warp) + 3 Stalkers will make short work of even a dozen of Marines, not to mention you cannot know if he built extra Oracles or not. Watch for instance HerO vs Kas, Bel'shir Vestige, HSC 8 to see how good unupgraded Marines are against Oracles. Why would you do such a thing when it implies major risks (as those Marines are extremely precious in case of agressive follows-ups) but absolutely zero reward? This isn't WoL anymore. You cannot threaten any retaliation with a handful of unupgraded Marines.
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Okay clearly only a few of the guys responding are at a decent level of starcraft. proxy oracle = no zealot. Why do i have to explain this?
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On December 11 2013 09:06 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 08:54 willyallthewei wrote:On December 11 2013 08:49 TheDwf wrote:On December 11 2013 08:38 willyallthewei wrote:
you guys who are opening reaper vs. oracle are doing it wrong if you end up even after a deflection, you should end up ahead with an engy bay in his natural and a reaper in his main shooting his probes while he's slowly killing the engy bay with his mama core.
There should be 2 turrets almost entirely up when the oracle arrives, and 2 marines with 2 building that you can then walk across the map and annoy him further with.
You should be ahead, otherwise, you're doing it wrong. You cannot freely attack his Probes since his first Stalker will simply repel your Reaper. Protoss doesn't care much about the EB block since he doesn't expand before 5'30 - 5'45 anyway when going 1gS expand, so the EB makes little difference in the end, and only further cripples your build which is already disrupted by the need of early Turrets and a Bunker. The bolded part clearly shows that you don't play Terran. Not only this 4 Marines poke threatens absolutely nothing, but you will just lose them for free against Stalkers or the Oracle, and it's simply game over if he goes 3gS all-in afterwards. He has to kill the engy bay right? What does he shoot it with? By the time the stlaker pops the engy bay is almost done so what Im talking about is zoning out any probes that try to bother ur proxy engy bay building scv. I didn't mean moving across the map with the first 4 marines immediately, i mean walking there as his nexus is getting up. Once you have turrets up you can walk across the map w/ marines. His nexus is later; thus, you can hit a timing before the planetary nexus kicks in since the natural isn't done building. If toss goes 3 gates you will see that w/ the reaper, then you don't have to move out w/ the marines at all. He kills it with his MSC and the second Stalker coming from his gate. Moving out on the map with a few Marines is, again, completely pointless; even with no Nexus ready at his natural, the MSC (Time Warp) + 3 Stalkers will make short work of even a dozen of Marines, not to mention you cannot know if he built extra Oracles or not. Watch for instance HerO vs Kas, Bel'shir Vestige, HSC 8 to see how good unupgraded Marines are against Oracles. Why would you do such a thing when it implies major risks (as those Marines are extremely precious in case of agressive follows-ups) but absolutely zero reward? This isn't WoL anymore. You cannot threaten any retaliation with a handful of unupgraded Marines.
That's the whole point, if you can force 1.) units or 2.) unit building structures from the protoss before he gets a nexus up, you've WON! once you have enough marines you can absolutely clear his stargate right? are you not ahead if his nexus is delayed, he had to make units and you cleared his stargate?
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On December 11 2013 09:06 willyallthewei wrote:
Okay clearly only a few of the guys responding are at a decent level of starcraft. proxy oracle = no zealot. Why do i have to explain this?
There's more than one way to proxy oracle. I very rarely see protosses skip that first zealot and I play at a high masters level.
Also his proxy could be twilight or robo too, leaving you behind once again.
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On December 11 2013 09:08 willyallthewei wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 09:06 TheDwf wrote:On December 11 2013 08:54 willyallthewei wrote:On December 11 2013 08:49 TheDwf wrote:On December 11 2013 08:38 willyallthewei wrote:
you guys who are opening reaper vs. oracle are doing it wrong if you end up even after a deflection, you should end up ahead with an engy bay in his natural and a reaper in his main shooting his probes while he's slowly killing the engy bay with his mama core.
There should be 2 turrets almost entirely up when the oracle arrives, and 2 marines with 2 building that you can then walk across the map and annoy him further with.
You should be ahead, otherwise, you're doing it wrong. You cannot freely attack his Probes since his first Stalker will simply repel your Reaper. Protoss doesn't care much about the EB block since he doesn't expand before 5'30 - 5'45 anyway when going 1gS expand, so the EB makes little difference in the end, and only further cripples your build which is already disrupted by the need of early Turrets and a Bunker. The bolded part clearly shows that you don't play Terran. Not only this 4 Marines poke threatens absolutely nothing, but you will just lose them for free against Stalkers or the Oracle, and it's simply game over if he goes 3gS all-in afterwards. He has to kill the engy bay right? What does he shoot it with? By the time the stlaker pops the engy bay is almost done so what Im talking about is zoning out any probes that try to bother ur proxy engy bay building scv. I didn't mean moving across the map with the first 4 marines immediately, i mean walking there as his nexus is getting up. Once you have turrets up you can walk across the map w/ marines. His nexus is later; thus, you can hit a timing before the planetary nexus kicks in since the natural isn't done building. If toss goes 3 gates you will see that w/ the reaper, then you don't have to move out w/ the marines at all. He kills it with his MSC and the second Stalker coming from his gate. Moving out on the map with a few Marines is, again, completely pointless; even with no Nexus ready at his natural, the MSC (Time Warp) + 3 Stalkers will make short work of even a dozen of Marines, not to mention you cannot know if he built extra Oracles or not. Watch for instance HerO vs Kas, Bel'shir Vestige, HSC 8 to see how good unupgraded Marines are against Oracles. Why would you do such a thing when it implies major risks (as those Marines are extremely precious in case of agressive follows-ups) but absolutely zero reward? This isn't WoL anymore. You cannot threaten any retaliation with a handful of unupgraded Marines. That's the whole point, if you can force 1.) units or 2.) unit building structures from the protoss before he gets a nexus up, you've WON!
You precisely don't force anything, building 3 Stalkers is something standard. That you consider it be an achievement for the Terran side is absolutely hilarious in itself.
from the protoss before he gets a nexus up, you've WON! once you have enough marines you can absolutely clear his stargate right? are you not ahead if his nexus is delayed, he had to make units and you cleared his stargate?
Why would Protoss care about losing his Stargate since 99% of the time in a normal game he has no need for Stargate tech before building his fourth and starting a Tempest transition by lategame? Did you even consider that Terran has to build his expand high ground, cut a bit SCVs to get his Turrets up, delay his gas, and doesn't have access to his second mineral line before being able to secure two spots from the Oracle?
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
How in the name of all fuck have you 'WON' if you force a few units from a Protoss and slightly delay his Nexus? There are still plenty of options open to them from that point of the game.
Plenty a Protoss has won a game skipping his Zealot, especially now in HoTS the MsC adds valuable DPS in taking it down.
Yeah, you perhaps prevent a proxy oracle build, there are MANY other options open to Protoss at the stage you're talking about. The race isn't so inflexible that it's entirely fucked over by a few build order interuptions, that's the whole problem with proxy oracles as of the minute.
As for 'decent level', iirc DwF is a GM Terran. I'm not sure if that counts to you?
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On December 11 2013 09:08 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 09:06 willyallthewei wrote:
Okay clearly only a few of the guys responding are at a decent level of starcraft. proxy oracle = no zealot. Why do i have to explain this? There's more than one way to proxy oracle. I very rarely see protosses skip that first zealot and I play at a high masters level. Also his proxy could be twilight or robo too, leaving you behind once again.
you scv scout right? so you know if its 2nd or 3rd pylon proxy right?
You also have a reaper to check for the type of proxy right? Now if you can't spot the proxy, YES you are in the dark, but if you SEE a stargate, then you finish the engy bay.
he can try to mind game you yes, but he's proxying a 2nd pylong, forgoing the initial in base scout and you can still cancel that engybay if you can't find out what he's doing.
We are talking about the response AFTER gaining the information.
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On December 11 2013 09:11 Wombat_NI wrote:
How in the name of all fuck have you 'WON' if you force a few units from a Protoss and slightly delay his Nexus? There are still plenty of options open to them from that point of the game.
Plenty a Protoss has won a game skipping his Zealot, especially now in HoTS the MsC adds valuable DPS in taking it down.
Yeah, you perhaps prevent a proxy oracle build, there are MANY other options open to Protoss at the stage you're talking about. The race isn't so inflexible that it's entirely fucked over by a few build order interuptions, that's the whole problem with proxy oracles as of the minute.
As for 'decent level', iirc DwF is a GM Terran. I'm not sure if that counts to you?
I was talking about the kid who thinks you can do the 2nd pylon proxy stargate + zealot. You can't, there's not enough minerals.
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On December 11 2013 09:09 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 09:08 willyallthewei wrote:On December 11 2013 09:06 TheDwf wrote:On December 11 2013 08:54 willyallthewei wrote:On December 11 2013 08:49 TheDwf wrote:On December 11 2013 08:38 willyallthewei wrote:
you guys who are opening reaper vs. oracle are doing it wrong if you end up even after a deflection, you should end up ahead with an engy bay in his natural and a reaper in his main shooting his probes while he's slowly killing the engy bay with his mama core.
There should be 2 turrets almost entirely up when the oracle arrives, and 2 marines with 2 building that you can then walk across the map and annoy him further with.
You should be ahead, otherwise, you're doing it wrong. You cannot freely attack his Probes since his first Stalker will simply repel your Reaper. Protoss doesn't care much about the EB block since he doesn't expand before 5'30 - 5'45 anyway when going 1gS expand, so the EB makes little difference in the end, and only further cripples your build which is already disrupted by the need of early Turrets and a Bunker. The bolded part clearly shows that you don't play Terran. Not only this 4 Marines poke threatens absolutely nothing, but you will just lose them for free against Stalkers or the Oracle, and it's simply game over if he goes 3gS all-in afterwards. He has to kill the engy bay right? What does he shoot it with? By the time the stlaker pops the engy bay is almost done so what Im talking about is zoning out any probes that try to bother ur proxy engy bay building scv. I didn't mean moving across the map with the first 4 marines immediately, i mean walking there as his nexus is getting up. Once you have turrets up you can walk across the map w/ marines. His nexus is later; thus, you can hit a timing before the planetary nexus kicks in since the natural isn't done building. If toss goes 3 gates you will see that w/ the reaper, then you don't have to move out w/ the marines at all. He kills it with his MSC and the second Stalker coming from his gate. Moving out on the map with a few Marines is, again, completely pointless; even with no Nexus ready at his natural, the MSC (Time Warp) + 3 Stalkers will make short work of even a dozen of Marines, not to mention you cannot know if he built extra Oracles or not. Watch for instance HerO vs Kas, Bel'shir Vestige, HSC 8 to see how good unupgraded Marines are against Oracles. Why would you do such a thing when it implies major risks (as those Marines are extremely precious in case of agressive follows-ups) but absolutely zero reward? This isn't WoL anymore. You cannot threaten any retaliation with a handful of unupgraded Marines. That's the whole point, if you can force 1.) units or 2.) unit building structures from the protoss before he gets a nexus up, you've WON! You precisely don't force anything, building 3 Stalkers is something standard. That you consider it be an achievement for the Terran side is absolutely hilarious in itself. Show nested quote +from the protoss before he gets a nexus up, you've WON! once you have enough marines you can absolutely clear his stargate right? are you not ahead if his nexus is delayed, he had to make units and you cleared his stargate? Why would Protoss care about losing his Stargate since 99% of the time in a normal game he has no need for Stargate tech before building his fourth and starting a Tempest transition by lategame? Did you even consider that Terran has to build his expand high ground, cut a bit SCVs to get his Turrets up, delay his gas, and doesn't have access to his second mineral line before being able to secure two spots from the Oracle?
if he shoots at the engy bay, you also know he's not crossing the map correct? So that bunker can be delayed a little bit, which slightly off sets your cost in the turrets.
I mean you can't be trying to convince me that a protoss siting on 2 geysers and an oracle that's done almost no damage after the initial investment, 0 sentries and a mama core is not set back more than your engy bay block and 2 turrets?
How have you not won and gained a lead?
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On December 11 2013 09:11 willyallthewei wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 09:08 Bagi wrote:On December 11 2013 09:06 willyallthewei wrote:
Okay clearly only a few of the guys responding are at a decent level of starcraft. proxy oracle = no zealot. Why do i have to explain this? There's more than one way to proxy oracle. I very rarely see protosses skip that first zealot and I play at a high masters level. Also his proxy could be twilight or robo too, leaving you behind once again. you scv scout right? so you know if its 2nd or 3rd pylon proxy right? You also have a reaper to check for the type of proxy right? Now if you can't spot the proxy, YES you are in the dark, but if you SEE a stargate, then you finish the engy bay. he can try to mind game you yes, but he's proxying a 2nd pylong, forgoing the initial in base scout and you can still cancel that engybay if you can't find out what he's doing. We are talking about the response AFTER gaining the information.
I thought the reaper was busy threatening probes? And the scouting SCV was busy building the engi bay?
Thats why proxies are so problematic, you cant be sure what they are when the maps so big that they can't always be scouted in time. Your build doesn't help that at all.
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On December 11 2013 09:14 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 09:11 willyallthewei wrote:On December 11 2013 09:08 Bagi wrote:On December 11 2013 09:06 willyallthewei wrote:
Okay clearly only a few of the guys responding are at a decent level of starcraft. proxy oracle = no zealot. Why do i have to explain this? There's more than one way to proxy oracle. I very rarely see protosses skip that first zealot and I play at a high masters level. Also his proxy could be twilight or robo too, leaving you behind once again. you scv scout right? so you know if its 2nd or 3rd pylon proxy right? You also have a reaper to check for the type of proxy right? Now if you can't spot the proxy, YES you are in the dark, but if you SEE a stargate, then you finish the engy bay. he can try to mind game you yes, but he's proxying a 2nd pylong, forgoing the initial in base scout and you can still cancel that engybay if you can't find out what he's doing. We are talking about the response AFTER gaining the information. I thought the reaper was busy threatening probes? And the scouting SCV was busy building the engi bay? Thats why proxies are so problematic, you cant be sure what they are when the maps so big that they can't always be scouted in time. Your build doesn't help that at all.
No man you scout first, then you go into natural and start the engy bay, your reaper checks for the proxy then after finding a stargate you move to protoss base which has a stalker now shooting a completed engy bay, you can now shoot at probes until stalker #2 pops, or a mama core. Either case you are reducing the dps against engy bay and lengthening the amount of time a protoss has to wait to expand.
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Protoss after ebay block :"meh, i'll put 3 gates". Terran scout 3 gates, lose his reaper, put 3 bunkers on his chock. In the meantime, protoss kill the ebay, drop his expand, and guess what, he's ahead ! ,))
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On December 11 2013 09:17 willyallthewei wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 09:14 Bagi wrote:On December 11 2013 09:11 willyallthewei wrote:On December 11 2013 09:08 Bagi wrote:On December 11 2013 09:06 willyallthewei wrote:
Okay clearly only a few of the guys responding are at a decent level of starcraft. proxy oracle = no zealot. Why do i have to explain this? There's more than one way to proxy oracle. I very rarely see protosses skip that first zealot and I play at a high masters level. Also his proxy could be twilight or robo too, leaving you behind once again. you scv scout right? so you know if its 2nd or 3rd pylon proxy right? You also have a reaper to check for the type of proxy right? Now if you can't spot the proxy, YES you are in the dark, but if you SEE a stargate, then you finish the engy bay. he can try to mind game you yes, but he's proxying a 2nd pylong, forgoing the initial in base scout and you can still cancel that engybay if you can't find out what he's doing. We are talking about the response AFTER gaining the information. I thought the reaper was busy threatening probes? And the scouting SCV was busy building the engi bay? Thats why proxies are so problematic, you cant be sure what they are when the maps so big that they can't always be scouted in time. Your build doesn't help that at all. No man you scout first, then you go into natural and start the engy bay, your reaper checks for the proxy then after finding a stargate you move to protoss base which has a stalker now shooting a completedly engy bay, you can now shoot at probes until stalker #2 pops, or a mama core. Either case you are reducing the dps against engy bay and lengthening the amount of time a protoss has to wait to expand.
could you post a cpl replays plz. theorycrafting is cool but can you show me how you do it?
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On December 11 2013 09:24 Faust852 wrote:
Protoss after ebay block :"meh, i'll put 3 gates". Terran scout 3 gates, lose his reaper, put 3 bunkers on his chock. In the meantime, protoss kill the ebay, drop his expand, and guess what, he's ahead ! ,))
Doesn't even have to be aggressive at that stage. Drop dual forges and go hardcore turtle, or do an oldschool 2 base Collosus all-in or something like that.
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On December 11 2013 09:24 Faust852 wrote:
Protoss after ebay block :"meh, i'll put 3 gates". Terran scout 3 gates, lose his reaper, put 3 bunkers on his chock. In the meantime, protoss kill the ebay, drop his expand, and guess what, he's ahead ! ,))
lol.
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On December 11 2013 09:26 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 09:17 willyallthewei wrote:On December 11 2013 09:14 Bagi wrote:On December 11 2013 09:11 willyallthewei wrote:On December 11 2013 09:08 Bagi wrote:On December 11 2013 09:06 willyallthewei wrote:
Okay clearly only a few of the guys responding are at a decent level of starcraft. proxy oracle = no zealot. Why do i have to explain this? There's more than one way to proxy oracle. I very rarely see protosses skip that first zealot and I play at a high masters level. Also his proxy could be twilight or robo too, leaving you behind once again. you scv scout right? so you know if its 2nd or 3rd pylon proxy right? You also have a reaper to check for the type of proxy right? Now if you can't spot the proxy, YES you are in the dark, but if you SEE a stargate, then you finish the engy bay. he can try to mind game you yes, but he's proxying a 2nd pylong, forgoing the initial in base scout and you can still cancel that engybay if you can't find out what he's doing. We are talking about the response AFTER gaining the information. I thought the reaper was busy threatening probes? And the scouting SCV was busy building the engi bay? Thats why proxies are so problematic, you cant be sure what they are when the maps so big that they can't always be scouted in time. Your build doesn't help that at all. No man you scout first, then you go into natural and start the engy bay, your reaper checks for the proxy then after finding a stargate you move to protoss base which has a stalker now shooting a completedly engy bay, you can now shoot at probes until stalker #2 pops, or a mama core. Either case you are reducing the dps against engy bay and lengthening the amount of time a protoss has to wait to expand. could you post a cpl replays plz. theorycrafting is cool but can you show me how you do it?
I don't play terran as Dwf guessed, a person i play against who is terran was the first i saw to use it, I don't have replays of this scenario playing out because i don't proxy stargate vs. him anymore precisely because he's good @ stopping it (and because i just don't like to open it). I know he's not the only one that does it though.
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On December 11 2013 10:34 willyallthewei wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 09:24 Faust852 wrote:
Protoss after ebay block :"meh, i'll put 3 gates". Terran scout 3 gates, lose his reaper, put 3 bunkers on his chock. In the meantime, protoss kill the ebay, drop his expand, and guess what, he's ahead ! ,)) lol.
Against a decent protoss player you can't save your reaper after the second scout.
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EPT
