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On December 11 2013 02:12 Wombat_NI wrote:
I agree with most of the Terran complaints re the current state of TvP tbh.
And yes, there are tinfoil hat wearers, but truth of the matter is I can see WHY Terrans think David Kim has some agenda against the race.
Let's not lump all Terrans one with the other. In any case, as to DK's so-called agenda, I can remember DK wearing Terran t-shirts in 2011/2012 and all the comments on TL that DK secretly loved Terran. How things change, eh?
More to the point, the fact that Protoss may be over-represented on ladder at the current time is not a balance argument.
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On December 11 2013 03:35 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 02:29 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 11 2013 02:16 Ben... wrote:On December 11 2013 01:54 Snusmumriken wrote:And as to accepting losses, its strange that me and so many other terrans have absolutely no problem accepting losing to zergs, but somehow *magically* when we lose to yet another proxy oracle, or proxy blink, or proxy dt, or proxy robo immortal push, or proxy robo colossi stalker warpprism, or dt drops, or some other warp prism bullshit, or just contained till theyre ahead anyways, we get frustrated. How curious, I wonder why... You have a bad mindset for playing the game in that case, or perhaps that is your weak matchup. Simple as that. That's how I feel when I lose PvZ on big open maps or against mass muta/corruptor (and I am sure many other Protoss are the same way), but you don't see me calling for wholesale nerfs to Zerg. I just accept that I am not good at the matchup and try and improve. Unless you are tip top GM you have room to improve. Even then you still can improve. Still want the speed buff for oracle removed though. That thing ruined PvP. I will say that until it is done. Are you for real? PvZ is protoss favoured right now AND your race completely dominate master and gm. No fucking shit sherlock youre not calling for a nerf of zerg. Please dont project your illogical reasoning on me. Everyone has a weak matchup. Mine has always been PvZ. In contrast my PvP has always been incredibly strong. By that logic you can't complain either because TvP is balanced at the top (top meaning Pro level, because that is where balance is and should be judged from. Not ladder heroes). You need to chill out. You're now at the point of personally insulting people for playing Protoss. If you are this upset you should take a break from the forum, and possibly the game. It is not healthy to be this angry.
I quote myself: Your assumption that having a game thats balanced at the top and balanced on ladder and midtier level would be mutually exclusive is completely nonsensical. Add more variety to terran earlygame and youll see a much better ladderrepresentation and as long as each option isnt too strong in itself then it will not have a huge impact on the top of the proscene where people know how to react perfectly to each build. Bear in mind that im not talking exact equal distribution in master and gm, Im simply saying that when we have 44% of one race and 23% of another, zero foreign terrans with any success whatsoever in hots, something is clearly wrong.
Otherwise why would protoss be able to have so many early game pressures and yet you claim the game is balanced. If so, then surely terran can have some earlygame options and the game will still remain balanced, no?"
Ive already quoted sjow stating what everyone with a brain knows, namely that while protoss and terran are fairly equal at innovation-level, if youre midtier(foreigner) or playing on ladder then protoss is op. How else does one explain the nonexistent success of foreign terrans in hots and the extreme overrepresentation of protoss in gm and master. Everyone has a weak matchup, and my tvz and tvp are actually fairly equal since i mech in tvz and bio in tvp, so stop assuming things about me that you dont know. For gods sake, we have people who get to grandmaster with protoss with NOTHING but cannonrushes, and yet you lot dont understand whats wrong with your race.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
I don't subscribe to those arguments, just in terms of a functional/fair/varied matchup, IMO TvP is borderline broken of late. I always loved it in WoL personally.
Anyway, we shall see what happens in the next while. The WCS offseason seems like a pretty good time to tweak balance/design.
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IMO anyone who thinks DK has an "agenda" against any race is an idiot lol His job, $$$ and life basically revolve around his success of having the game balanced. Call him stupid and short-sighted if you want, but thinking he actually wants a race to be sh*tty is just stupid.
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On December 11 2013 03:44 Snusmumriken wrote:
Ive already quoted sjow stating what everyone with a brain knows, namely that while protoss and terran are fairly equal at innovation-level, if youre midtier(foreigner) or playing on ladder then protoss is op. How else does one explain the nonexistent success of foreign terrans in hots and the extreme overrepresentation of protoss in gm and master. Everyone has a weak matchup, and my tvz and tvp are actually fairly equal since i mech in tvz and bio in tvp, so stop assuming things about me that you dont know. For gods sake, we have people who get to grandmaster with protoss with NOTHING but cannonrushes, and yet you lot dont understand whats wrong with your race.
Yeah and I can quote MVP from an interview in 2011 where he said that Terran was weak back then even though GSL was consistently 50%+ Terran and he had won GSL season 4. Quotes are worthless outside of specific context. Sjow has a very obvious agenda, and in watching his stream these two points becomes more apparent. Most games he ends with saying that he shouldn't have won or things like that and it is obviously just a show. The entire purpose of his race switching was to show that Protoss is overpowered and really easy, and so far he isn't doing a very good job given that he is losing to supposedly worse NA Master players fairly consistently. Not to mention he is playing such dirty styles. If he played a passive macro style he would probably change his tune pretty quickly.
I do think below the top level TvP is broken if Protoss plays abusive. If Protoss does not play abusive (like how us Nony followers play. Passive macro and play based on logic rather than gimmicks) it is balanced. I've said many times the oracle buff was ill-concieved and that the mothership core needs to be looked at (I even said as much earlier in the thread. I suggested a speed nerf so it cannot be used to spot for blink). I just think that if both of those are nerfed and Terran is buffed, then the situation will reverse.
If we could go back to WoL PvT I would in a heartbeat. It was far more fun than what we have now. No medivac boost, no mothership core, no oracles, no widow mines. Whoever was better usually always won.
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Yeah and I can quote MVP from an interview in 2011 where he said that Terran was weak back then even though GSL was consistently 50%+ Terran and he had won GSL season 4. Quotes are worthless outside of specific context. Sjow has a very obvious agenda, and in watching his stream these two points becomes more apparent. Most games he ends with saying that he shouldn't have won or things like that and it is obviously just a show. The entire purpose of his race switching was to show that Protoss is overpowered and really easy, and so far he isn't doing a very good job given that he is losing to supposedly worse NA Master players fairly consistently. Not to mention he is playing such dirty styles. If he played a passive macro style he would probably change his tune pretty quickly.
I do think below the top level TvP is broken if Protoss plays abusive. If Protoss does not play abusive (like how us Nony followers play. Passive macro and play based on logic rather than gimmicks) it is balanced. I've said many times the oracle buff was ill-concieved and that the mothership core needs to be looked at (I even said as much earlier in the thread. I suggested a speed nerf so it cannot be used to spot for blink). I just think that if both of those are nerfed and Terran is buffed, then the situation will reverse.
If we could go back to WoL PvT I would in a heartbeat. It was far more fun than what we have now. No medivac boost, no mothership core, no oracles, no widow mines. Whoever was better usually always won.
I agree with you to most extent. The MSC being slower would make it way to ez to snipe though Korean Players would make Protoss an embarassing Race if they kept relying on it so heavily. Though Your ideas can be counter argued like that would encourage it to stay in base and not be effective in all ins as it is. You have some good ideas  your protoss buddies might want to kick you in the shin but you are on to something <3
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On December 11 2013 04:16 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 03:44 Snusmumriken wrote:
Ive already quoted sjow stating what everyone with a brain knows, namely that while protoss and terran are fairly equal at innovation-level, if youre midtier(foreigner) or playing on ladder then protoss is op. How else does one explain the nonexistent success of foreign terrans in hots and the extreme overrepresentation of protoss in gm and master. Everyone has a weak matchup, and my tvz and tvp are actually fairly equal since i mech in tvz and bio in tvp, so stop assuming things about me that you dont know. For gods sake, we have people who get to grandmaster with protoss with NOTHING but cannonrushes, and yet you lot dont understand whats wrong with your race. Yeah and I can quote MVP from an interview in 2011 where he said that Terran was weak back then even though GSL was consistently 50%+ Terran and he had won GSL season 4. Quotes are worthless outside of specific context. Sjow has a very obvious agenda, and in watching his stream these two points becomes more apparent. Most games he ends with saying that he shouldn't have won or things like that and it is obviously just a show. The entire purpose of his race switching was to show that Protoss is overpowered and really easy, and so far he isn't doing a very good job given that he is losing to supposedly worse NA Master players fairly consistently. Not to mention he is playing such dirty styles. If he played a passive macro style he would probably change his tune pretty quickly. I do think below the top level TvP is broken if Protoss plays abusive. If Protoss does not play abusive (like how us Nony followers play. Passive macro and play based on logic rather than gimmicks) it is balanced. I've said many times the oracle buff was ill-concieved and that the mothership core needs to be looked at (I even said as much earlier in the thread. I suggested a speed nerf so it cannot be used to spot for blink). I just think that if both of those are nerfed and Terran is buffed, then the situation will reverse. If we could go back to WoL PvT I would in a heartbeat. It was far more fun than what we have now. No medivac boost, no mothership core, no oracles, no widow mines. Whoever was better usually always won.
I dont quote sjow because hes a pro, I quote sjow because I think hes right. If MvP ever said such a stupid thing i would have disagreed thoroughly. You obviously agree with the gist of what im saying with "below the top level TvP is broken if protoss plays abusive". As to "if the protoss doesnt play abusive", you seem to forget the impact the threat of being abused poses to a person. If someone holds a gun to your head whilst an exam and you fail, would you accept "well I didnt fire it" as an answer?
I dont have a problem with protoss players who dont abuse the shit out of their race, but most protoss in master do. Ive faced proxy SOMETHING in 9 our of 10 tvp:s ive played lately, and its come to the point where ive stopped playing the game.
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Germany2762 Posts
On December 11 2013 03:35 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 02:29 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 11 2013 02:16 Ben... wrote:On December 11 2013 01:54 Snusmumriken wrote:And as to accepting losses, its strange that me and so many other terrans have absolutely no problem accepting losing to zergs, but somehow *magically* when we lose to yet another proxy oracle, or proxy blink, or proxy dt, or proxy robo immortal push, or proxy robo colossi stalker warpprism, or dt drops, or some other warp prism bullshit, or just contained till theyre ahead anyways, we get frustrated. How curious, I wonder why... You have a bad mindset for playing the game in that case, or perhaps that is your weak matchup. Simple as that. That's how I feel when I lose PvZ on big open maps or against mass muta/corruptor (and I am sure many other Protoss are the same way), but you don't see me calling for wholesale nerfs to Zerg. I just accept that I am not good at the matchup and try and improve. Unless you are tip top GM you have room to improve. Even then you still can improve. Still want the speed buff for oracle removed though. That thing ruined PvP. I will say that until it is done. Are you for real? PvZ is protoss favoured right now AND your race completely dominate master and gm. No fucking shit sherlock youre not calling for a nerf of zerg. Please dont project your illogical reasoning on me. Everyone has a weak matchup. Mine has always been PvZ. In contrast my PvP has always been incredibly strong. By that logic you can't complain either because TvP is balanced at the top (top meaning Pro level, because that is where balance is and should be judged from. Not ladder heroes). You need to chill out. You're now at the point of personally insulting people for playing Protoss. If you are this upset you should take a break from the forum, and possibly the game. It is not healthy to be this angry.
You know that the top of each GM league is filled with these pro players. In Korea you should expect, that nearly the whole GM only consists pros. To differentiate between GM and pros is rather stupid.
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Apparently tournaments are won via ladder. Terrans need to grow a sack. Korean terrans are playing the same game as you are. They're simply better. The imbalance is some players are far better than you are. Get better? Even in WoL when t vs p stats were heavily in favor of terran every month, all you ever heard was terran players crying about how unfair the matchup was. They had the audacity to play victim... despite never having a month with percentages in tosses favor? I think it serves them right. The boy that cried wolf... that's what happens when you whine regardless of the reality. People stop caring. Your word means next to nothing.
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United States7483 Posts
I love the place these discussions always wind up at. If a terran player wins, he's better than everyone else and is just a great player. If a protoss wins, he's riding imbalance or is a cheesy bastard with no skill. Doesn't actually matter what the balance situation is, for some reason terrans are always just better players because they play terran.
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United States7483 Posts
On December 11 2013 03:44 Snusmumriken wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 03:35 Ben... wrote:On December 11 2013 02:29 Snusmumriken wrote:On December 11 2013 02:16 Ben... wrote:On December 11 2013 01:54 Snusmumriken wrote:And as to accepting losses, its strange that me and so many other terrans have absolutely no problem accepting losing to zergs, but somehow *magically* when we lose to yet another proxy oracle, or proxy blink, or proxy dt, or proxy robo immortal push, or proxy robo colossi stalker warpprism, or dt drops, or some other warp prism bullshit, or just contained till theyre ahead anyways, we get frustrated. How curious, I wonder why... You have a bad mindset for playing the game in that case, or perhaps that is your weak matchup. Simple as that. That's how I feel when I lose PvZ on big open maps or against mass muta/corruptor (and I am sure many other Protoss are the same way), but you don't see me calling for wholesale nerfs to Zerg. I just accept that I am not good at the matchup and try and improve. Unless you are tip top GM you have room to improve. Even then you still can improve. Still want the speed buff for oracle removed though. That thing ruined PvP. I will say that until it is done. Are you for real? PvZ is protoss favoured right now AND your race completely dominate master and gm. No fucking shit sherlock youre not calling for a nerf of zerg. Please dont project your illogical reasoning on me. Everyone has a weak matchup. Mine has always been PvZ. In contrast my PvP has always been incredibly strong. By that logic you can't complain either because TvP is balanced at the top (top meaning Pro level, because that is where balance is and should be judged from. Not ladder heroes). You need to chill out. You're now at the point of personally insulting people for playing Protoss. If you are this upset you should take a break from the forum, and possibly the game. It is not healthy to be this angry. I quote myself: Your assumption that having a game thats balanced at the top and balanced on ladder and midtier level would be mutually exclusive is completely nonsensical. Add more variety to terran earlygame and youll see a much better ladderrepresentation and as long as each option isnt too strong in itself then it will not have a huge impact on the top of the proscene where people know how to react perfectly to each build. Bear in mind that im not talking exact equal distribution in master and gm, Im simply saying that when we have 44% of one race and 23% of another, zero foreign terrans with any success whatsoever in hots, something is clearly wrong. Otherwise why would protoss be able to have so many early game pressures and yet you claim the game is balanced. If so, then surely terran can have some earlygame options and the game will still remain balanced, no?" Ive already quoted sjow stating what everyone with a brain knows, namely that while protoss and terran are fairly equal at innovation-level, if youre midtier(foreigner) or playing on ladder then protoss is op. How else does one explain the nonexistent success of foreign terrans in hots and the extreme overrepresentation of protoss in gm and master. Everyone has a weak matchup, and my tvz and tvp are actually fairly equal since i mech in tvz and bio in tvp, so stop assuming things about me that you dont know. For gods sake, we have people who get to grandmaster with protoss with NOTHING but cannonrushes, and yet you lot dont understand whats wrong with your race.
There have been terran players who hit GM doing a 2 rax every game, and zergs that hit GM doing nothing but six pool every game. What's your point?
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On December 11 2013 04:49 Whitewing wrote:
I love the place these discussions always wind up at. If a terran player wins, he's better than everyone else and is just a great player. If a protoss wins, he's riding imbalance or is a cheesy bastard with no skill. Doesn't actually matter what the balance situation is, for some reason terrans are always just better players because they play terran.
From a merely observer perspective, Terran does seems to be much more micro intensive that any of the other races!
All I see on Terran is, or you have the micro of a god and you OMFG kill everyone or you do'nt and you're bad and can't win anything!
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On December 11 2013 04:45 playa wrote:
Even in WoL when t vs p stats were heavily in favor of terran every month, all you ever heard was terran players crying about how unfair the matchup was. They had the audacity to play victim... despite never having a month with percentages in tosses favor? I
And that happened when exactly?
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On December 11 2013 05:21 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 04:45 playa wrote:
Even in WoL when t vs p stats were heavily in favor of terran every month, all you ever heard was terran players crying about how unfair the matchup was. They had the audacity to play victim... despite never having a month with percentages in tosses favor? I And that happened when exactly?
You must be new to starcraft II lol
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On December 11 2013 04:49 Whitewing wrote:
I love the place these discussions always wind up at. If a terran player wins, he's better than everyone else and is just a great player. If a protoss wins, he's riding imbalance or is a cheesy bastard with no skill. Doesn't actually matter what the balance situation is, for some reason terrans are always just better players because they play terran.
fuck yeah, apparently t click + stutterstep and shift queuing drops is a shit ton of micro and requires a lot of skill to pull off...
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On December 11 2013 05:43 EpicDemente wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 04:49 Whitewing wrote:
I love the place these discussions always wind up at. If a terran player wins, he's better than everyone else and is just a great player. If a protoss wins, he's riding imbalance or is a cheesy bastard with no skill. Doesn't actually matter what the balance situation is, for some reason terrans are always just better players because they play terran. fuck yeah, apparently t click + stutterstep and shift queuing drops is a shit ton of micro and requires a lot of skill to pull off...
It really does considering stutterstep, splitting and dropping have extremely high micro potential to do it perfectly and they have to balance it around players like Taeja.
Half-assing it wont get you very far at all.
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On December 11 2013 04:56 elderamy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 04:49 Whitewing wrote:
I love the place these discussions always wind up at. If a terran player wins, he's better than everyone else and is just a great player. If a protoss wins, he's riding imbalance or is a cheesy bastard with no skill. Doesn't actually matter what the balance situation is, for some reason terrans are always just better players because they play terran. From a merely observer perspective, Terran does seems to be much more micro intensive that any of the other races! All I see on Terran is, or you have the micro of a god and you OMFG kill everyone or you do'nt and you're bad and can't win anything!
It's attitudes like this that keeps you and your fellow T players at the bottom of the barrel. This attitude is THE FUCKING PROBLEM.
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On December 11 2013 06:13 Phoenix2003 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 04:56 elderamy wrote:On December 11 2013 04:49 Whitewing wrote:
I love the place these discussions always wind up at. If a terran player wins, he's better than everyone else and is just a great player. If a protoss wins, he's riding imbalance or is a cheesy bastard with no skill. Doesn't actually matter what the balance situation is, for some reason terrans are always just better players because they play terran. From a merely observer perspective, Terran does seems to be much more micro intensive that any of the other races! All I see on Terran is, or you have the micro of a god and you OMFG kill everyone or you do'nt and you're bad and can't win anything! It's attitudes like this that keeps you and your fellow T players at the bottom of the barrel. This attitude is THE FUCKING PROBLEM.
? What attitude? It is indeed right that when u suck at micro you won't come far with terran.
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On December 11 2013 05:43 EpicDemente wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 04:49 Whitewing wrote:
I love the place these discussions always wind up at. If a terran player wins, he's better than everyone else and is just a great player. If a protoss wins, he's riding imbalance or is a cheesy bastard with no skill. Doesn't actually matter what the balance situation is, for some reason terrans are always just better players because they play terran. fuck yeah, apparently t click + stutterstep and shift queuing drops is a shit ton of micro and requires a lot of skill to pull off...
It's a hell of a lot more impressive then selecting everything and a-moving lol.
Dw bro, those storms are incredibly difficult to land, and pulling collosi back is real hard.
rofl
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What am I reading?
1.) Get a Protoss practice partner and have him all in you every game.
2.) Open reaper.
3.) Scout.
4.) Respond properly (don't cut corners).
Practice that 20 games in a row, it will cost you less than the time you've spent QQing on this thread and you'll be better! OMG!
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EPT
