EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 824
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Ana_
Finland453 Posts
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On December 10 2013 19:24 Ana_ wrote: Is there any stats that shows the race distribution in GM/Masters from lets say 2012 to present day? I don't think so, what know is that there were a bit more terran in the early HoTS days and it slowly decrease to 23% now (the last patch helped a lot). In the end of 2012 there were less terrans in GM than zergs, but it wasn't that visible. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26069 Posts
Now here's what I do get annoyed at. 1. Hellbat drops, problematic in TvT and TvZ at times. Nerfed. 2. Mothership Core/its abilities. Bar a period early doors where Protoss hadn't figured to turtle longer on two bases, has been making TvP worse and worse. No change. Also WHY WHY was the Oracle BUFFED when it was already problematic? It's nonsensical to have build where you proxy a Stargate be close to a standard opener now. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On December 10 2013 19:32 Wombat_NI wrote: It's not a denial of the problem, but Jesus stop going on, and on, and on about Protoss. Rename the thread to ' Terrans bitchs about Protoss' if you're going to do that Now here's what I do get annoyed at. 1. Hellbat drops, problematic in TvT and TvZ at times. Nerfed. 2. Mothership Core/its abilities. Bar a period early doors where Protoss hadn't figured to turtle longer on two bases, has been making TvP worse and worse. No change. Also WHY WHY was the Oracle BUFFED when it was already problematic? It's nonsensical to have build where you proxy a Stargate be close to a standard opener now. You know, as you said we look like we bitch a lot, but it you take a deeper look at this thread, it is generally terran saying something is wrong (you said so too) and other protoss claiming everything is fine. I call it being in total denial of the reality. If protoss aknowledge that there is a problem as you said with MSC and Oracle, everything would go much more smoothly. ^^ I used to say that Hellbat was broken even in TvP, there were total broken build where you could just drop the protoss army with hellbat and autowin haha. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 10 2013 19:00 Fjodorov wrote: If we didnt have some of the best terrans in the world taking those wins against foreign protoss at alot of these weekend events it would look very differently. HasuObs DE P 2–1 T KR sC Stork KR P 2–0 T FI Naama MarineLord FR T 1–2 P SE Mekar Dayshi FR T 2–0 P DK Pink Mekar SE P 0–2 T FR Dayshi BlinG UK P 2–1 T DE KrasS SeleCT KR T 1–2 P UA Underdark PvT 10-8 NightEnD RO P 1–0 T DK Lillekanin Dragon KR T 1–0 P BG Methix jjakji KR T 2–0 P PL MaNa Revenge KR T 2–1 P RU TitaN StarDust KR P 2–0 T RU Happy Ryung KR T 0–1 P RO NightEnD Chubz FR P 0–2 T FR MarineLord MarineLord FR T 2–1 P RO NightEnD KnowMe DE P 0–1 T UA Kas PvT 7-10 San KR P 1–3 T KR INnoVation uThermal NL T 2–0 P DK Pink ToxiC ES P 0–2 T KR Revenge jeysen FR P 0–2 T UA Kas Feast BE P 0–2 T KR jjakji HuK CA P 2–1 T UK DeMusliM PvT 3-12 PvT 20-30 (40:60) eliminate Korean vs foreigner games: 12-20 (37.5:62.5) eliminate Korven vs Korean (so San vs INnoVation): 11-17 (39.3:60.7) --> the stats get actually slightly worse for Protoss (but I'd say they stay the same) when you eliminate the Koreans. Of course it's just a random sample, but it's much more evidence to disprove you than you put up to support your statement... | ||
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Fjodorov
5007 Posts
On December 10 2013 19:44 Big J wrote: HasuObs DE P 2–1 T KR sC Stork KR P 2–0 T FI Naama MarineLord FR T 1–2 P SE Mekar Dayshi FR T 2–0 P DK Pink Mekar SE P 0–2 T FR Dayshi BlinG UK P 2–1 T DE KrasS SeleCT KR T 1–2 P UA Underdark PvT 10-8 NightEnD RO P 1–0 T DK Lillekanin Dragon KR T 1–0 P BG Methix jjakji KR T 2–0 P PL MaNa Revenge KR T 2–1 P RU TitaN StarDust KR P 2–0 T RU Happy Ryung KR T 0–1 P RO NightEnD Chubz FR P 0–2 T FR MarineLord MarineLord FR T 2–1 P RO NightEnD KnowMe DE P 0–1 T UA Kas PvT 7-10 San KR P 1–3 T KR INnoVation uThermal NL T 2–0 P DK Pink ToxiC ES P 0–2 T KR Revenge jeysen FR P 0–2 T UA Kas Feast BE P 0–2 T KR jjakji HuK CA P 2–1 T UK DeMusliM PvT 3-12 PvT 20-30 (40:60) eliminate Korean vs foreigner games: 12-20 (37.5:62.5) eliminate Korven vs Korean (so San vs INnoVation): 11-17 (39.3:60.7) --> the stats get actually slightly worse for Protoss (but I'd say they stay the same) when you eliminate the Koreans. Of course it's just a random sample, but it's much more evidence to disprove you than you put up to support your statement... Chubz vs marinelord... rly? dunno where you getting those stats from and how they are relevant to the stats graph but from watching the premier tournaments last months, and entire year, ive seen pretty much the same terrans+innovation (esf terrans bomber, taeja, maru, polt etc) who have been dominating for years and have been getting results almost no matter the patch or meta. They are participating in alot of foreign tournaments and doing well like they always do. They are some of the best players in the world after all. Meanwhile new names pop up for zerg and protoss, especially with kespa joining sc2. Foreigners keep doing ok in grps, getting, ro8,4, even finals from time to time (no terran foreigner though). Where are the new korean terrans? Why cant foreign terrans compete? Why do we have 32% global player base consist of P and 29% consist of T but at GM level we have 40%+ P and 25% T? I suggest you use your amazing skills of digging up facts to solve this mystery | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 10 2013 20:05 Fjodorov wrote: Chubz vs marinelord... rly? dunno where you getting those stats from and how they are relevant to the stats graph but from watching the premier tournaments last months, and entire year, ive seen pretty much the same terrans+innovation (esf terrans bomber, taeja, maru, polt etc) who have been dominating for years and have been getting results almost no matter the patch or meta. They are participating in alot of foreign tournaments and doing well like they always do. They are some of the best players in the world after all. Meanwhile new names pop up for zerg and protoss, especially with kespa joining sc2. Foreigners keep doing ok in grps, getting, ro8,4, even finals from time to time (no terran foreigner though). Where are the new korean terrans? Why cant foreign terrans compete? Why do we have 32% global player base consist of P and 29% consist of T but at GM level we have 40%+ P and 25% T? I suggest you use your amazing skills of digging up facts to solve this mystery those are aligulac stats. Those that you say are skewed because of foreigners vs Korean Terrans. Not my problem if you complain about stats without knowing what games they contain | ||
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Dan26
Australia239 Posts
On December 10 2013 02:25 Chaggi wrote: The thing that boggles my mind isn't necessarily from an imbalance point of view, but that this is just simply not fun. What's the point in making Protoss early game so strong and Terran early game so weak? That's not fun. Even when I win in TvP, it feels like I just ran a freaking marathon. Did I scout every little corner of the map so I know nothing won't just outright kill me? Oh I missed a corner and that means DT's are in my base now? That's cool. Didn't see an oracle coming in? Dead. It's just not fun. TvZ? TvT? Now those are fun matchups. A real flow and back and forth to them. They're just as brutal as TvP is except TvP just feels like I'm getting bent over and trying to run on all fours so the Protoss doesn't shove a colossi up there. That closing sentence made me laugh so hard I cried... And then I realized that it was true! So I cried some more... QQ In TvP you have to be super aggressive with your army all over the fucking map trying to smack around the protoss ball whilst performing some hardcore anal rape on his probe lines. At the end of it all, your APM is higher then normal, your sweating, and you wake up in the middle of the night thinking there's a DT in your room and an Oracle outside your window... | ||
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Fjodorov
5007 Posts
On December 10 2013 20:07 Big J wrote: those are aligulac stats. Those that you say are skewed because of foreigners vs Korean Terrans. Not my problem if you complain about stats without knowing what games they contain So while I, and the post I first replied to, was talking about the stats before and after the patch in premier tournaments, you give me stats from Numericable M-House Cup 3: Qualifier #1 and go4sc2 cup. heh... yeah | ||
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klup
France612 Posts
reaper expand CC first (extremely risky) then he have a choice between : 5 rax before 3rd CC 3rd CC before 4 and 5th rax This is a strategy game for god sake. You should be able to build different strategies and react to situation with different things. The only time terran has to make strategy choice is between 9 and 12 minutes when you have to pick ghost viking or a ghostless anti zealot comp. I would be so happy when I scout protoss to actually say to myself : "ahah he did this so I can try to exploit this weakness early on by going this aggression". Instead I just scout to avoid to get cheesed so i'm basically already in a defensive posture. And then I re scout to see if he has not a second wave of cheese incoming. But except if protoss goes for like 3 nexus before tech there is absolutely no way to go wild on a protoss early on and it is really sad. I tried everything from supernova proxy reaper proxy facto (which is the best you can pull off) to 3 rax reapers, mines drops, banshee etc... If protoss scouted aggression build the only reaction he have to do is build a MSC, build an observer. drink a tea and wait. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 10 2013 20:20 Fjodorov wrote: So while I, and the post I first replied to, was talking about the stats before and after the patch in premier tournaments, you give me stats from Numericable M-House Cup 3: Qualifier #1 and go4sc2 cup. heh... yeah oh. Sorry. My fault. Missinterpreted "these weekend events" with smaller cups. Should have used my brain before shooting, since the stats clearly say it's only premiers.  | ||
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Orek
1665 Posts
I know I can check current ones here: http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/race http://kr.battle.net/sc2/ko/ladder/grandmaster/heart-of-the-swarm , but I can't check past distribution. I don't know how meaningful it is to discuss ladder distribution if we don't know how it has been aside from people's somewhat vague memory. Both "too many P in GM" and "P is natually better in bo1" arguments can be valid only if we have a reference point in the past. I mean, I personally think both are true, but neither can be even circumstantially proven without past data. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On December 10 2013 22:27 Orek wrote: So, is it impossible to know historical GM ladder race distribution? I know I can check current ones here: http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/race http://kr.battle.net/sc2/ko/ladder/grandmaster/heart-of-the-swarm , but I can't check past distribution. I don't know how meaningful it is to discuss ladder distribution if we don't know how it has been aside from people's somewhat vague memory. Both "too many P in GM" and "P is natually better in bo1" arguments can be valid only if we have a reference point in the past. I mean, I personally think both are true, but neither can be even circumstantially proven without past data. There's some data about 2011 and early 2012 here, but after that it seems there's a blind spot. Zerg was probably the most represented race in GML worldwide at the end of 2012. | ||
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Orek
1665 Posts
On December 10 2013 22:30 TheDwf wrote: There's some data about 2011 and early 2012 here, but after that it seems there's a blind spot. Zerg was probably the most represented race in GML worldwide at the end of 2012. Ah. Thank you. I just found an image I took for my research at the end of 2012 (2012 Season 5), when Zerg was considered most dominant. It included in top 45 T: 11 Z: 18 P: 16 + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Kn9HDWE.png) I guess it fill up a blank. | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On December 10 2013 19:40 Faust852 wrote: You know, as you said we look like we bitch a lot, but it you take a deeper look at this thread, it is generally terran saying something is wrong (you said so too) and other protoss claiming everything is fine. I call it being in total denial of the reality. Switch "Protoss" with "Terran" there and you have the exact thing Protoss players were saying around 2011; except Protoss also had the proof at the highest level rather than just among foreigner stats and ladder heroes. So Terran hardly has the moral high ground here. What people are SAYING is that the damn balance is fine. Because it IS. The game is balanced on the level it should be, the matchup win rates at the highest levels are more or less even, the numbers do not lie. There is no balance issue. However that is an entirely different matter to whether the matchup is any good; but they're being used interchangeably which is absurd. More to the point this is the balance thread, not the "redesign to make the game more fun" thread. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On December 10 2013 23:25 -Celestial- wrote: Last few pages looks worse than the Blizzard forums. No joke. Switch "Protoss" with "Terran" there and you have the exact thing Protoss players were saying around 2011; except Protoss also had the proof at the highest level rather than just among foreigner stats and ladder heroes. So Terran hardly has the moral high ground here. What people are SAYING is that the damn balance is fine. Because it IS. The game is balanced on the level it should be, the matchup win rates at the highest levels are more or less even, the numbers do not lie. There is no balance issue. However that is an entirely different matter to whether the matchup is any good; but they're being used interchangeably which is absurd. More to the point this is the balance thread, not the "redesign to make the game more fun" thread. You are exactly the exemple of what i'm saying. "See, 50%, everything is fine". PvZ used to be fine too at the end of WoL. It was 50% 7g robo allin win, or 50% lose BL infest lategame. Did I heard Protoss crying a river about that? Oh yes I did. And I bet you did cry a lot back in the days. | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On December 10 2013 23:45 Faust852 wrote: You are exactly the exemple of what i'm saying. "See, 50%, everything is fine". PvZ used to be fine too at the end of WoL. It was 50% 7g robo allin win, or 50% lose BL infest lategame. Did I heard Protoss crying a river about that? Oh yes I did. And I bet you did cry a lot back in the days. And you are the perfect example of what I was talking about in my post. I'd suggest you actually read posts in future before starting to type a reply because I literally adressed that in what you quoted. I mean honestly its absurd. You're apparently so determined to whine you're blind to what you're quoting... | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On December 11 2013 00:05 -Celestial- wrote: And you are the perfect example of what I was talking about in my post. I'd suggest you actually read posts in future before starting to type a reply because I literally adressed that in what you quoted. I mean honestly its absurd. You're apparently so determined to whine you're blind to what you're quoting... So because I don't have the same notion of balance than yours I am the one who is blind. Ok. Btw, "What people are SAYING is that the damn balance is fine. Because it IS." If you consider yourself + 2 others protoss in this thread as the whole sc2 community, you probably have a problem of ego. | ||
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Snusmumriken
Sweden1717 Posts
On December 10 2013 23:25 -Celestial- wrote: Last few pages looks worse than the Blizzard forums. No joke. Switch "Protoss" with "Terran" there and you have the exact thing Protoss players were saying around 2011; except Protoss also had the proof at the highest level rather than just among foreigner stats and ladder heroes. So Terran hardly has the moral high ground here. What people are SAYING is that the damn balance is fine. Because it IS. The game is balanced on the level it should be, the matchup win rates at the highest levels are more or less even, the numbers do not lie. There is no balance issue. However that is an entirely different matter to whether the matchup is any good; but they're being used interchangeably which is absurd. More to the point this is the balance thread, not the "redesign to make the game more fun" thread. what people? I see virtually no terrans saying the game is balanced. Example is Sjow who just switched to protoss because : "The game is pretty balanced at the very top, but midtier (foreigner) level and master/gm ladder protoss is quite op". This explains everything, it explains the abundance of protoss in gm and the nonexistent success of foreign terrans in hots. Youre shitty assumptions however fail to explain any of the data. Seriously, what is it about the notion of imbalance below taeja-level that you dont get? All I see is diamond to gm-protosses who want a freeride because taeja and innovation are up to par with dear and sos (on a good day). | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
1. Subjective in that people should be able to ignore the actual numbers and facts to claim that it isn't (i.e. people are saying that its balanced because the winrates on the highest level are balanced, but you want to say that its not because of...reasons apparently). - Faust852 and 2. Should not be done at the highest level (i.e. the best professional gamers in premier tournaments) but done on the whim of "average" players. - Snusmumriken Then all I can say is that Starcraft 2 is a highly competitive esport in which it is vital that at the highest level everyone has an even chance. It seems like that it may not be the kind of game for you. I have nothing more to say to you for today, especially with the slightly irritating ad hominems. Farewell. | ||
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