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So let me summarize:
You make two statements, which are independend of actual numbers
1) Foreigners play the race which gives the most return for the least effort
2) Koreans play the race which gives the most return for the most effort
Then you argue based on those two statements, that due to 1) we can conclude Protoss is the race with the most return for the least effort and upon 2) that Terran is the race with the most return for the most effort.
I and others tell you that actually Protoss is the most played race in Korea, upon which you only want to talk about statement 1) anymore.
Sorry, but it is simply very obvious that you did not come up with 1) and 2) independendly from the numbers you had in mind, but you just stated 1) and 2) to fit your numbers and your ideas about the races. You did not conclude from the numbers through the statements. You made the statements to let them draw the conclusions you wanted to draw.
Isn't that the point of making a statement.... to show reason and point to a conclusion? If not you are making a statement to make a statement such as protoss is protoss because its protoss... or this is a tree..... Don't try to word dance to make it seem like your intellectually superior to everyone else....
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On December 09 2013 23:51 Pirfiktshon wrote:Show nested quote +So let me summarize:
You make two statements, which are independend of actual numbers
1) Foreigners play the race which gives the most return for the least effort
2) Koreans play the race which gives the most return for the most effort
Then you argue based on those two statements, that due to 1) we can conclude Protoss is the race with the most return for the least effort and upon 2) that Terran is the race with the most return for the most effort.
I and others tell you that actually Protoss is the most played race in Korea, upon which you only want to talk about statement 1) anymore.
Sorry, but it is simply very obvious that you did not come up with 1) and 2) independendly from the numbers you had in mind, but you just stated 1) and 2) to fit your numbers and your ideas about the races. You did not conclude from the numbers through the statements. You made the statements to let them draw the conclusions you wanted to draw. Isn't that the point of making a statement.... to show reason and point to a conclusion? If not you are making a statement to make a statement such as protoss is protoss because its protoss... or this is a tree..... Don't try to word dance to make it seem like your intellectually superior to everyone else....
Actually, that's what I'm saying what you did.
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Actually, that's what I'm saying what you did.
You can argue that for anything that is said on these forums.... Same thing when you hear someone casting and an oracle cleans up a mineral line in 3-4 seconds and the caster goes "Dat Oracle". You can look at it at the surface and say yea it was an oracle or realize that he is saying that oracle was the money maker winning tool there..... I was bringing up something that may not be as obvious to others that had to do with the balance discussion to show that there seems to be a problem outside the professional arena according to the statistics.....
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On December 10 2013 00:08 Pirfiktshon wrote:You can argue that for anything that is said on these forums.... Same thing when you hear someone casting and an oracle cleans up a mineral line in 3-4 seconds and the caster goes "Dat Oracle". You can look at it at the surface and say yea it was an oracle or realize that he is saying that oracle was the money maker winning tool there..... I was bringing up something that may not be as obvious to others that had to do with the balance discussion to show that there seems to be a problem outside the professional arena according to the statistics.....
No, you just wanted to say "Protoss easy" but you couldn't even overcome your pride and say that Protoss might be better overall. You had to add "Terran players so good".
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On December 09 2013 21:58 Wombat_NI wrote:
If I may make a point on EU's Protoss GMs, hasn't EU historically been a hotbed of decent Protoss players at that level?
A lot of ex-WC3 players, of which there are many in EU plumped for Protoss with the switch. I mean this is nothing new surely?
Yes it has as far as I'm aware. But be careful there, you keep saying things like that and you'll have Terrans after you. Safer to pacify them with phrases like "Terran is so underpowered". That makes them happy and less likely to attack.
On December 09 2013 23:51 Pirfiktshon wrote:Show nested quote +So let me summarize:
You make two statements, which are independend of actual numbers
1) Foreigners play the race which gives the most return for the least effort
2) Koreans play the race which gives the most return for the most effort
Then you argue based on those two statements, that due to 1) we can conclude Protoss is the race with the most return for the least effort and upon 2) that Terran is the race with the most return for the most effort.
I and others tell you that actually Protoss is the most played race in Korea, upon which you only want to talk about statement 1) anymore.
Sorry, but it is simply very obvious that you did not come up with 1) and 2) independendly from the numbers you had in mind, but you just stated 1) and 2) to fit your numbers and your ideas about the races. You did not conclude from the numbers through the statements. You made the statements to let them draw the conclusions you wanted to draw. Isn't that the point of making a statement.... to show reason and point to a conclusion? If not you are making a statement to make a statement such as protoss is protoss because its protoss... or this is a tree..... Don't try to word dance to make it seem like your intellectually superior to everyone else....
Except what you're doing is making a conclusion independent of the data and then adjusting your hypotheses and premises to fit the conclusion you want to draw.
How its supposed to work is:
1. Decide on your premises (e.g. that Koreans are better players and will tend towards methods that allow them to use that superior skill to win) and a hypothesis
2. Look at data
3. Assess data based on your premises
4. Make a conclusion based on that data and decide if it fits your hypothesis
What you've managed to do is:
1. Decide what the conclusion you want to be is (i.e. "Terran is hardest/weakest race")
2. Set up some premises (i.e. "Foreigners use Protoss because its easy to be good" and "Koreans use Terran because its hard to be good but you can do more with it, more skill") that would support that conclusion and based your hypothesis on the conclusion you want to make ("therefore more Koreans will play Terran higher on ladder than Foreigners")
3. Had someone point out that the data flat out does not support your assertions
4. Rather than actually look at the data properly or even, god forbid, change your conclusion (because Terran so weak, right? I mean its only common sense!) you instead decide to ignore your own premise because it doesn't fit with the data and your conclusion. But still insist that you're correct because...reasons I guess?
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Yes it has as far as I'm aware. But be careful there, you keep saying things like that and you'll have Terrans after you. Safer to pacify them with phrases like "Terran is so underpowered". That makes them happy and less likely to attack.
Except the same is found in every region there is, in fact its even worse in the Americas than on Europe. All dem wc3-players across the world eh?
Heres my hypothesis: Terran and protoss is equally difficult on taeja/dear-level, but on midtier level (foreigner) as well as on master/gm-ladder protoss is op.
These arent my words by the way, theyre Sjows. And I agree. The data fully supports this claim as well.
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What are people's thoughts on reverting the nerf to stim research back to 140 seconds? I don't have any reasoning behind it improving balance, but it seems like a fun change to throw in. Also SC2 has changed a lot since early WoL with mothership cores and super queens.
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On December 10 2013 01:35 MstrJinbo wrote:
What are people's thoughts on reverting the nerf to stim research back to 140 seconds? I don't have any reasoning behind it improving balance, but it seems like a fun change to throw in. Also SC2 has changed a lot since early WoL with mothership cores and super queens.
This would not break anything since the entire reasoning for the switch was so that protoss didn't die to the 2 rax stim timing. With MSC that is a non issue. It might give some kind of timing to counter, but I doubt it. It would just be a tiny step in a direction that requires us to run a mile.
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What are people's thoughts on reverting the nerf to stim research back to 140 seconds? I don't have any reasoning behind it improving balance, but it seems like a fun change to throw in. Also SC2 has changed a lot since early WoL with mothership cores and super queens
I like this change but I doubt this would ever happen. I'm sure all the protoss players would agree that they never want that reverted back....
Edit: Though It would make All ins in TvP less prevalent as they would be much easier to defend.... but thats probably the real reason that it would never happen... protoss like their all ins and so does david kim to be so powerful....
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On December 10 2013 00:18 Snusmumriken wrote:Show nested quote +Yes it has as far as I'm aware. But be careful there, you keep saying things like that and you'll have Terrans after you. Safer to pacify them with phrases like "Terran is so underpowered". That makes them happy and less likely to attack. Except the same is found in every region there is, in fact its even worse in the Americas than on Europe. All dem wc3-players across the world eh? Heres my hypothesis: Terran and protoss is equally difficult on taeja/dear-level, but on midtier level (foreigner) as well as on master/gm-ladder protoss is op. These arent my words by the way, theyre Sjows. And I agree. The data fully supports this claim as well.
look man, just accept it. Protoss players are just better. It took an oracle change to really allow Protoss to show their awesome micro and multi tasking abilities.
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look man, just accept it. Protoss players are just better. It took an oracle change to really allow Protoss to show their awesome micro and multi tasking abilities
Yea it takes a True 100% pro to play Protoss.... that's why its in the name <3
My statement before is simply about the Bellcurve of learning each race and how rewarding and where it is rewarding for each race from that bellcurve....
I think the funniest thing is what was said at ASUS ROG from innovation..... " Protoss is stronger than Terran right now... but All protoss doing the same thing so I practice against that so I win..."
I'm sure all the protoss players were like ... "Terran players are all just doing the same thing so they suck...."
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On December 09 2013 08:37 ffadicted wrote:
Most ppl want higher skill ceiling in the game. With that will come inherent imbalances in the lower levels, and we just have to live with that imo.
Or they can make skill ceiling similiar for all races.
As long TvP is bio on T side this means - kiting with bio and dodging storms is required for balance purpose on highest level which means lower level Terran players will struggle.
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On December 10 2013 02:14 Pirfiktshon wrote:Show nested quote +look man, just accept it. Protoss players are just better. It took an oracle change to really allow Protoss to show their awesome micro and multi tasking abilities Yea it takes a True 100% pro to play Protoss.... that's why its in the name <3 My statement before is simply about the Bellcurve of learning each race and how rewarding and where it is rewarding for each race from that bellcurve.... I think the funniest thing is what was said at ASUS ROG from innovation..... " Protoss is stronger than Terran right now... but All protoss doing the same thing so I practice against that so I win..." I'm sure all the protoss players were like ... "Terran players are all just doing the same thing so they suck...."
The thing that boggles my mind isn't necessarily from an imbalance point of view, but that this is just simply not fun. What's the point in making Protoss early game so strong and Terran early game so weak? That's not fun. Even when I win in TvP, it feels like I just ran a freaking marathon. Did I scout every little corner of the map so I know nothing won't just outright kill me? Oh I missed a corner and that means DT's are in my base now? That's cool. Didn't see an oracle coming in? Dead. It's just not fun.
TvZ? TvT? Now those are fun matchups. A real flow and back and forth to them. They're just as brutal as TvP is except TvP just feels like I'm getting bent over and trying to run on all fours so the Protoss doesn't shove a colossi up there.
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On December 10 2013 02:21 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 08:37 ffadicted wrote:
Most ppl want higher skill ceiling in the game. With that will come inherent imbalances in the lower levels, and we just have to live with that imo.
Or they can make skill ceiling similiar for all races. As long TvP is bio on T side this means - kiting with bio and dodging storms is required for balance purpose on highest level which means lower level Terran players will struggle.
I don't know if I can speak for anyone else, but I literally don't mind having to do that. It's a small price to pay for having super mobile units and ultra micro-able. Early game isn't fun, late game is always 1 mistake from being over. Not fun for the players, not fun for the viewer. Reminds me of a certain WoL comp...
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There was also a good point brought up by one of the casters of ASUS ROG about TvZ that doesn't apply to TvP. In TvZ depending on what player went what build and timing attack it can mean either player wins at various points of the game so its really a war of mechanics and attrition..... TvP is not like this It comes down to what the protoss player does that means life or death throughout pretty much from the start to 9:00-9:30 mark then from 14:00 ( Games on average last 18 mins) which honestly leaves 4:30-5:00 window of opportunity from the Terran player to take the game into their own hands..... Now there is the Opener with Widow mine drop but that has a hard counter if scouted including the Oracle (Protoss Ferrari) if you go the economic widow mine drop....
But I guess most players are ok with this.... This to me doesn't really seem balance if one race can't do ANYTHING to the other regardless for 13 mins of the game vses 4:30-5:00 mins LOL.
I'm sure the Protoss dogs are going to get sicked on me but its reality if you are in the Higher bracket of the ladder you'll realize this is very true.......
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I don't know if I can speak for anyone else, but I literally don't mind having to do that. It's a small price to pay for having super mobile units and ultra micro-able. Early game isn't fun, late game is always 1 mistake from being over. Not fun for the players, not fun for the viewer. Reminds me of a certain WoL comp...
I completely agree with you I don't mind that trade off at all... I actually love the mobility and the chance to harass but like you are saying make 1 bad trade and protoss A moves you with nothing stopping it......
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I personally think it's good for protoss to have early game harassment options, mothership core zealot stalker pressure is one of my favourite opening to watch.
We didn't really have terran doing any economical harassment before medivac in wol so this makes the matchup a bit more dynamic.
All it needs is a tweak to the power of mothership core blink stalker contain and proxy oracle and we might have better games overall.
Nexus cannon is fine. I think time warp is a much bigger problem
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On December 10 2013 02:44 ETisME wrote:
I personally think it's good for protoss to have early game harassment options, mothership core zealot stalker pressure is one of my favourite opening to watch.
We didn't really have terran doing any economical harassment before medivac in wol so this makes the matchup a bit more dynamic.
All it needs is a tweak to the power of mothership core blink stalker contain and proxy oracle and we might have better games overall.
Nexus cannon is fine. I think time warp is a much bigger problem
of course, early game harassment options is always good. It's just bad if Terran doesn't have the same options or overly aggressive play can't be punished, that's not good for the game
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of course, early game harassment options is always good. It's just bad if Terran doesn't have the same options or overly aggressive play can't be punished, that's not good for the game
Yea exactly I'm not asking for a Nerf I'm asking for options to keep the protoss on his feet just as much...... Feels like a one sided fight for 9 mins
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On December 10 2013 02:44 ETisME wrote:
I personally think it's good for protoss to have early game harassment options, mothership core zealot stalker pressure is one of my favourite opening to watch.
We didn't really have terran doing any economical harassment before medivac in wol so this makes the matchup a bit more dynamic.
All it needs is a tweak to the power of mothership core blink stalker contain and proxy oracle and we might have better games overall.
Nexus cannon is fine. I think time warp is a much bigger problem
2rax Marine/Marauder pressure was a thing in WoL, could end games, could be a strong pressure, could transition into normal games, could fail hard. We had some pre stim marine pressures to kill sentries and so on. Protoss had to be scared of 1base allins and tank based 2base pushes. There was a large variety of what you could do with terran early on. Hell, even Banshee openers where a thing! Now you have nothing. Widow mine drops... I see them over and over again, but all they seem to do is, getting defended with no problem and then maybe making the protoss to be overconfident.
Widow mines don´t even kill that many probes anymore, if they go off in a mineral line.
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EPT
