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On December 11 2013 06:24 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 05:43 EpicDemente wrote:On December 11 2013 04:49 Whitewing wrote:
I love the place these discussions always wind up at. If a terran player wins, he's better than everyone else and is just a great player. If a protoss wins, he's riding imbalance or is a cheesy bastard with no skill. Doesn't actually matter what the balance situation is, for some reason terrans are always just better players because they play terran. fuck yeah, apparently t click + stutterstep and shift queuing drops is a shit ton of micro and requires a lot of skill to pull off... It's a hell of a lot more impressive then selecting everything and a-moving lol. Dw bro, those storms are incredibly difficult to land, and pulling collosi back is real hard. rofl
Bit different when Taeja and Dear playing, but propably it is that easy for both. Just a move and go to macro or stutterstep like mad.
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I thought that by now everyone knows that splitting marines is the ultimate display of skill in SC2.
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On December 11 2013 04:16 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 03:44 Snusmumriken wrote:
Ive already quoted sjow stating what everyone with a brain knows, namely that while protoss and terran are fairly equal at innovation-level, if youre midtier(foreigner) or playing on ladder then protoss is op. How else does one explain the nonexistent success of foreign terrans in hots and the extreme overrepresentation of protoss in gm and master. Everyone has a weak matchup, and my tvz and tvp are actually fairly equal since i mech in tvz and bio in tvp, so stop assuming things about me that you dont know. For gods sake, we have people who get to grandmaster with protoss with NOTHING but cannonrushes, and yet you lot dont understand whats wrong with your race. Yeah and I can quote MVP from an interview in 2011 where he said that Terran was weak back then even though GSL was consistently 50%+ Terran and he had won GSL season 4. Quotes are worthless outside of specific context. Sjow has a very obvious agenda, and in watching his stream these two points becomes more apparent. Most games he ends with saying that he shouldn't have won or things like that and it is obviously just a show. The entire purpose of his race switching was to show that Protoss is overpowered and really easy, and so far he isn't doing a very good job given that he is losing to supposedly worse NA Master players fairly consistently. Not to mention he is playing such dirty styles. If he played a passive macro style he would probably change his tune pretty quickly. I do think below the top level TvP is broken if Protoss plays abusive. If Protoss does not play abusive (like how us Nony followers play. Passive macro and play based on logic rather than gimmicks) it is balanced. I've said many times the oracle buff was ill-concieved and that the mothership core needs to be looked at (I even said as much earlier in the thread. I suggested a speed nerf so it cannot be used to spot for blink). I just think that if both of those are nerfed and Terran is buffed, then the situation will reverse. If we could go back to WoL PvT I would in a heartbeat. It was far more fun than what we have now. No medivac boost, no mothership core, no oracles, no widow mines. Whoever was better usually always won.
I see this MVP quote is often taken out of context to discredit any pro's claim on balance issue. All he said was terran would be weak in the new GSL big maps, which he was right.
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Northern Ireland26480 Posts
On December 11 2013 06:31 willyallthewei wrote:
What am I reading?
1.) Get a Protoss practice partner and have him all in you every game.
2.) Open reaper.
3.) Scout.
4.) Respond properly (don't cut corners).
Practice that 20 games in a row, it will cost you less than the time you've spent QQing on this thread and you'll be better! OMG!
Yeah good luck with that haha.
Opening reaper makes it VERY dicey that you hold vs a proxied oracle, even IF you scout it. That's one of the problems with that particular build.
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On December 11 2013 07:36 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 06:31 willyallthewei wrote:
What am I reading?
1.) Get a Protoss practice partner and have him all in you every game.
2.) Open reaper.
3.) Scout.
4.) Respond properly (don't cut corners).
Practice that 20 games in a row, it will cost you less than the time you've spent QQing on this thread and you'll be better! OMG! Yeah good luck with that haha. Opening reaper makes it VERY dicey that you hold vs a proxied oracle, even IF you scout it. That's one of the problems with that particular build.
Turret.
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Northern Ireland26480 Posts
Terran players, for the most part are not COMPLETE morons, it's not as simple as that, at all.
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On December 11 2013 08:00 Wombat_NI wrote:
Terran players, for the most part are not COMPLETE morons, it's not as simple as that, at all.
Thanks for having faith in us 
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On December 11 2013 07:36 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 06:31 willyallthewei wrote:
What am I reading?
1.) Get a Protoss practice partner and have him all in you every game.
2.) Open reaper.
3.) Scout.
4.) Respond properly (don't cut corners).
Practice that 20 games in a row, it will cost you less than the time you've spent QQing on this thread and you'll be better! OMG! Yeah good luck with that haha. Opening reaper makes it VERY dicey that you hold vs a proxied oracle, even IF you scout it. That's one of the problems with that particular build.
Reaper Reactor expand holds proxy Oracles with a 4'10 EB. What's conceptually idiotic is that Terran is not even ahead if Protoss expands shortly after; the Oracle will get 1-2 kills here, 1-2 kills there, and the game evens out. As with Blink attacks, the risk/reward is absurd (i. e. very few drawbacks compared with the chance to accidentally win the game with a "mere pressure" opening that has the strength of an all-in without being an all-in) because of the MSC.
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As a bit of comic relief, from IdrA's stream just now:
"It's a terran. It's only the 2nd terran today.
Protoss is wiping them out too.
Fucking protoss..."
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Northern Ireland26480 Posts
Well therein lies the problem (for me as a Protoss player). A build where you proxy a relatively high-tech structure, can be deflected with no damage and you're STILL relatively even is absurd.
Also, the build you mention Dwf, how does it fare vs the litany of other aggressive options that Protoss hold in their deck? Genuinely curious.
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On December 11 2013 08:09 Wombat_NI wrote:
Well therein lies the problem (for me as a Protoss player). A build where you proxy a relatively high-tech structure, can be deflected with no damage and you're STILL relatively even is absurd.
Also, the build you mention Dwf, how does it fare vs the litany of other aggressive options that Protoss hold in their deck? Genuinely curious.
What's even more absurd with Oracles is that most of the time there is zero reason not to proxy them as Protoss doesn't care about losing the Stargate tech (the only exception is if Protoss wants to play Phoenixes/Colossi, but naturally in this case he simply doesn't proxy Stargate; even if you want to build 3-5 Phoenixes after your Oracle, you can do it out of the proxied Stargate since it won't be unpowered before Medivacs). If Protoss builds the Stargate in his base, it's scoutable with a Reaper, or more rarely a scan, while if it's somewhere on the map (of course it doesn't have to be close with the speed of Oracles) Terran has way less chances to spot it and is left wondering if the proxied tech is Council for Blink, Council + Dark shrine, or whatever.
It does OK, but if the proxy happened to be a Council and you built 1-2 Turret(s), you're food for the Blink attack.
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Btw guys, stop saying TvP stats are balanced at pro levels, it is currently at 55.10% in favor of protoss and saying it's 50% is just trying to convince yourself but that's all. Source : Aligulac.
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you guys who are opening reaper vs. oracle are doing it wrong if you end up even after a deflection, you should end up ahead with an engy bay in his natural and a reaper in his main shooting his probes while he's slowly killing the engy bay with his mama core.
There should be 2 turrets almost entirely up when the oracle arrives, and 2 marines with 2 building that you can then walk across the map and annoy him further with.
You should be ahead, otherwise, you're doing it wrong.
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On December 11 2013 08:38 willyallthewei wrote:
you guys who are opening reaper vs. oracle are doing it wrong if you end up even after a deflection, you should end up ahead with an engy bay in his natural and a reaper in his main shooting his probes while he's slowly killing the engy bay with his mama core.
There should be 2 turrets almost entirely up when the oracle arrives, and 2 marines with 2 building that you can then walk across the map and annoy him further with.
You should be ahead, otherwise, you're doing it wrong.
I'm pretty sure TheDwF knows his subject better than you, but thanks.
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On December 11 2013 08:38 willyallthewei wrote:
you guys who are opening reaper vs. oracle are doing it wrong if you end up even after a deflection, you should end up ahead with an engy bay in his natural and a reaper in his main shooting his probes while he's slowly killing the engy bay with his mama core.
There should be 2 turrets almost entirely up when the oracle arrives, and 2 marines with 2 building that you can then walk across the map and annoy him further with.
You should be ahead, otherwise, you're doing it wrong.
You cannot freely attack his Probes since his first Stalker will simply repel your Reaper. Protoss doesn't care much about the EB block since he doesn't expand before 5'30 - 5'45 anyway when going 1gS expand, so the EB makes little difference in the end, and only further cripples your build which is already disrupted by the need of early Turrets and a Bunker.
The bolded part clearly shows that you don't play Terran. Not only this 4 Marines poke threatens absolutely nothing, but you will just lose them for free against Stalkers or the Oracle, and it's simply game over if he goes 3gS all-in afterwards.
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On December 11 2013 08:49 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 08:38 willyallthewei wrote:
you guys who are opening reaper vs. oracle are doing it wrong if you end up even after a deflection, you should end up ahead with an engy bay in his natural and a reaper in his main shooting his probes while he's slowly killing the engy bay with his mama core.
There should be 2 turrets almost entirely up when the oracle arrives, and 2 marines with 2 building that you can then walk across the map and annoy him further with.
You should be ahead, otherwise, you're doing it wrong. You cannot freely attack his Probes since his first Stalker will simply repel your Reaper. Protoss doesn't care much about the EB block since he doesn't expand before 5'30 - 5'45 anyway when going 1gS expand, so the EB makes little difference in the end, and only further cripples your build which is already disrupted by the need of early Turrets and a Bunker. The bolded part clearly shows that you don't play Terran. Not only this 4 Marines poke threatens absolutely nothing, but you will just lose them for free against Stalkers or the Oracle, and it's simply game over if he goes 3gS all-in afterwards.
He has to kill the engy bay right? What does he shoot it with? By the time the stlaker pops the engy bay is almost done so what Im talking about is zoning out any probes that try to bother ur proxy engy bay building scv.
I didn't mean moving across the map with the first 4 marines immediately, i mean walking there as his nexus is getting up. Once you have turrets up you can walk across the map w/ marines. His nexus is later; thus, you can hit a timing before the planetary nexus kicks in since the natural isn't done building.
If toss goes 3 gates you will see that w/ the reaper, then you don't have to move out w/ the marines at all.
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On December 11 2013 08:54 willyallthewei wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 08:49 TheDwf wrote:On December 11 2013 08:38 willyallthewei wrote:
you guys who are opening reaper vs. oracle are doing it wrong if you end up even after a deflection, you should end up ahead with an engy bay in his natural and a reaper in his main shooting his probes while he's slowly killing the engy bay with his mama core.
There should be 2 turrets almost entirely up when the oracle arrives, and 2 marines with 2 building that you can then walk across the map and annoy him further with.
You should be ahead, otherwise, you're doing it wrong. You cannot freely attack his Probes since his first Stalker will simply repel your Reaper. Protoss doesn't care much about the EB block since he doesn't expand before 5'30 - 5'45 anyway when going 1gS expand, so the EB makes little difference in the end, and only further cripples your build which is already disrupted by the need of early Turrets and a Bunker. The bolded part clearly shows that you don't play Terran. Not only this 4 Marines poke threatens absolutely nothing, but you will just lose them for free against Stalkers or the Oracle, and it's simply game over if he goes 3gS all-in afterwards. He has to kill the engy bay right? What does he shoot it with? By the time the stlaker pops the engy bay is almost done so what Im talking about is zoning out any probes that try to bother ur proxy engy bay building scv. I didn't mean moving across the map with the first 4 marines immediately, i mean walking there as his nexus is getting up. Once you have turrets up you can walk across the map w/ marines. His nexus is later; thus, you can hit a timing before the planetary nexus kicks in since the natural isn't done building. If toss goes 3 gates you will see that w/ the reaper, then you don't have to move out w/ the marines at all.
so just to be clear here you build 2 engeneering bays by the 4 minute mark?
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On December 11 2013 08:58 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 08:54 willyallthewei wrote:On December 11 2013 08:49 TheDwf wrote:On December 11 2013 08:38 willyallthewei wrote:
you guys who are opening reaper vs. oracle are doing it wrong if you end up even after a deflection, you should end up ahead with an engy bay in his natural and a reaper in his main shooting his probes while he's slowly killing the engy bay with his mama core.
There should be 2 turrets almost entirely up when the oracle arrives, and 2 marines with 2 building that you can then walk across the map and annoy him further with.
You should be ahead, otherwise, you're doing it wrong. You cannot freely attack his Probes since his first Stalker will simply repel your Reaper. Protoss doesn't care much about the EB block since he doesn't expand before 5'30 - 5'45 anyway when going 1gS expand, so the EB makes little difference in the end, and only further cripples your build which is already disrupted by the need of early Turrets and a Bunker. The bolded part clearly shows that you don't play Terran. Not only this 4 Marines poke threatens absolutely nothing, but you will just lose them for free against Stalkers or the Oracle, and it's simply game over if he goes 3gS all-in afterwards. He has to kill the engy bay right? What does he shoot it with? By the time the stlaker pops the engy bay is almost done so what Im talking about is zoning out any probes that try to bother ur proxy engy bay building scv. I didn't mean moving across the map with the first 4 marines immediately, i mean walking there as his nexus is getting up. Once you have turrets up you can walk across the map w/ marines. His nexus is later; thus, you can hit a timing before the planetary nexus kicks in since the natural isn't done building. If toss goes 3 gates you will see that w/ the reaper, then you don't have to move out w/ the marines at all. so just to be clear here you build 2 engeneering bays by the 4 minute mark?
No that's the key to why you are ahead, you build only 1.
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Northern Ireland26480 Posts
What?
4 marines don't even kill a well-microed stalker? I am really confused here but the overall build schematic?
Engi block him, blindly off a reaper expand and hope to do damage with a naked marine pressure subsequently? That will literally do nothing to any Protoss worth his salt.
Anyone who played in the (imo more enjoyable) WoL era will remember the early game stalker/marine dances. Indeed, kiting them with your stalkers across the entire map was pretty much a necessity to deal with an unscouted/unexpected 3 rax/SCV pull allin.
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willy, just stop... you're making protoss players look bad here lol
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EPT
