|
On December 16 2013 01:06 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2013 00:11 Chaggi wrote:On December 15 2013 23:54 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 15 2013 23:41 MattD wrote:
People saying that mech still needs buffing simply don't even play the game. Mech vs zerg is very fucking strong, theres a reason goody has like an 80% win rate with it. Blinding cloud is NOT problem, good mech terrans don't die to blinding cloud timings and without it zerg would have 0 chance to win. The main reason people don't want to play mech every game is because it lasts for 4 fucking hours every time but that has nothing to do with balance it's by design and will not change any time soon. So winning $30k+ prizes isn't enough motivation for Korean Terrans to play longer games? Interesting theory. Little known fact, Terrans can actually get by in life by whining so $$$ isn't a motivation. Taeja is just a Protoss/Zerg player in disguise. What do you mean? Terrans are horrible whiners. Hence the myth of the chosen terran player just "being better" than players of other races and the constant refrains about so many nerfs despite being obviously and demonstrably imabalanced and broken at times in SC2's life cycle. Hell if we listened to half the garbage in this thread we would get rid of collosi so there could be a fair fight between marines and gateway units. So silly. Other races start to also win tournaments and suddenly the world has ended. + Show Spoiler + Look. If Naniwa eclipses Stephano, I am all good. We can get rid of warpgate, collosi, oracles and MsCs then.
And you're gonna tell me that early game TvP isn't broken in favor of the Protoss now? And that if anything it should be revenge for the 1/1/1 era and Protoss had to "innovate" past it. Do Protoss players even enjoy using the colossi? It's such a stupidly designed unit that you have to get to stand against the Terran mid game yet is nothing more than an A move unit. If anything Protoss should scream for a redesign of such a vital unit.
|
On December 16 2013 01:06 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2013 00:11 Chaggi wrote:On December 15 2013 23:54 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 15 2013 23:41 MattD wrote:
People saying that mech still needs buffing simply don't even play the game. Mech vs zerg is very fucking strong, theres a reason goody has like an 80% win rate with it. Blinding cloud is NOT problem, good mech terrans don't die to blinding cloud timings and without it zerg would have 0 chance to win. The main reason people don't want to play mech every game is because it lasts for 4 fucking hours every time but that has nothing to do with balance it's by design and will not change any time soon. So winning $30k+ prizes isn't enough motivation for Korean Terrans to play longer games? Interesting theory. Little known fact, Terrans can actually get by in life by whining so $$$ isn't a motivation. Taeja is just a Protoss/Zerg player in disguise. What do you mean? Terrans are horrible whiners. Hence the myth of the chosen terran player just "being better" than players of other races and the constant refrains about so many nerfs despite being obviously and demonstrably imabalanced and broken at times in SC2's life cycle. Hell if we listened to half the garbage in this thread we would get rid of collosi so there could be a fair fight between marines and gateway units. So silly. Other races start to also win tournaments and suddenly the world has ended. + Show Spoiler + Look. If Naniwa eclipses Stephano, I am all good. We can get rid of warpgate, collosi, oracles and MsCs then.
Yeh, when you launch the game, you have to complete a survey and if you have a whiney attitude you are redirected to terran, if you have a calm mind it's protoss that is assign to you. Lol. I just think you are reveling into the current ease of playing protoss and don't want to have to work for winning.
|
Fairly sure most Protoss loathe the Colossus. I don't remember the thread but there was one about which unit was disliked the most, and the Colossus won handily.
Edit: There was that.
|
On December 16 2013 01:27 TheDwf wrote:Fairly sure most Protoss loathe the Colossus. I don't remember the thread but there was one about which unit was disliked the most, and the Colossus won handily. Edit: There was that.
Yeah, I for myself enjoy using templars much more than colossus, spreading etc. with HT, just feels much more sattisfying.
|
On December 15 2013 23:16 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2013 23:08 Big J wrote:On December 15 2013 22:52 Chaggi wrote:On December 15 2013 22:36 Big J wrote:On December 15 2013 20:52 Chaggi wrote:
I still don't understand why the changes last patch were made, like any of them. None of them really affected the MU's that they were supposed to, and it felt pretty obvious that they weren't going to. Every MU was balanced when looking at a win rate standpoint and while there was always a problem with TvP early game, the patch did nothing to help that. It's cool to have combined ground/air attacks, but did it really promote Mech play? Did the tank changes really bring about a mech renaissance and a presence in TvZ? I don't think I've seen ANY top level Terran beyond Bomber using tanks for timings that actually used tanks in TvZ cause mines are just that much better for how current TvZ is played. It's not like this wasn't something figured out at all either, all of this was throughly explained through so many threads on TL/Reddit. It's times like this where I wonder if Blizzard really knows what they're doing. Just that we have seen an increase of Mechplay in TvZ by a few thousand percent since the patch... Mvp, Maru, jjakji(?) all were somewhat successful with it in TvZ. No we are not seeing "everybody playing it all the time", but it was a quite successful buff in the right direction. The roach buff has seen a few nice applications (mostly in PvZ) and is a really nice tweak that does not break anything. It's comments like this where I wonder why people comment on balance when they are not watching games. Mech play hasn't really gone up for people that hasn't used mech. Neither has tank play really replaced WM play which is the intended purpose of the change. It's comments like these that make me wonder if you're arguing for the sake of arguing. I'm gonna go with a yes. edit: ^ what he said That's what you said. I don't think I've seen ANY top level Terran beyond Bomber using tanks for timings that actually used tanks in TvZ cause mines are just that much better for how current TvZ is played. I gave examples why your comment is out of place, since there are people using it successfully. The "intention" of the patch was not that the tank replaces the mine. It was - to buff Mech and thus increase variety (achieved) - to have tanks being used besides mines (not achieved and probably not achievable outside of Mech since they overlap) On December 15 2013 22:48 TheDwf wrote:On December 15 2013 22:36 Big J wrote:On December 15 2013 20:52 Chaggi wrote:
I still don't understand why the changes last patch were made, like any of them. None of them really affected the MU's that they were supposed to, and it felt pretty obvious that they weren't going to. Every MU was balanced when looking at a win rate standpoint and while there was always a problem with TvP early game, the patch did nothing to help that. It's cool to have combined ground/air attacks, but did it really promote Mech play? Did the tank changes really bring about a mech renaissance and a presence in TvZ? I don't think I've seen ANY top level Terran beyond Bomber using tanks for timings that actually used tanks in TvZ cause mines are just that much better for how current TvZ is played. It's not like this wasn't something figured out at all either, all of this was throughly explained through so many threads on TL/Reddit. It's times like this where I wonder if Blizzard really knows what they're doing. Just that we have seen an increase of Mechplay in TvZ by a few thousand percent since the patch... Mvp, Maru, jjakji(?) all were somewhat successful with it in TvZ. No we are not seeing "everybody playing it all the time", but it was a quite successful buff in the right direction. The roach buff has seen a few nice applications (mostly in PvZ) and is a really nice tweak that does not break anything. It's comments like this where I wonder why people comment on balance when they are not watching games. Thing is, those mech users—Mvp, Maru, probably Flash—were already using mech before. Don't remember jjakji playing mech vs Zerg. TaeJa played one mech game vs Scarlett at HSC8 (Polar Night) but won with his Hellions/Banshees harass. Bogus played one mech game vs Jaedong at DH Winter. And from memory, none of those mech wins featured any Swarm host... Well, the usage of Mech has hugely increased. It's not as stable as bio, but the patch really helped and goes in the right direction. That's all I was saying. No need to put it like Chaggi and pretend everything about the patch was wrong when it actually has some very visual positive results. I mean unless you are so delusional and think that you could have repaired Mech with a single change in TvZ, the results are as good as they can be given how small those two changes are. People have been using Mech "successfully" without the patch. That's the point and the problem. I believe David Kim said the reason for the WM nerf was Show nested quote +We'd like to push out the Widow Mine a little bit and bump up the Siege Tank so that bio play becomes more interesting. Ultimately, we believe a mix of Widow Mines and Siege Tanks with your bio army will be a lot more fun to watch than just Widow Mines with bio alone. Have we seen any of that? (The answer you're looking for is no, but the one you want to answer with is yes, but you don't watch enough games Chaggi). If we really saw a push for mech to be better, why make such a DRASTIC CHANGE as tank firing speed from 3.0 to 2.7 (oh wait it's 2.8 now) while nerfing one of the main units of 4M?
Just a strawman. I already said that this one didn't work out...
But this one:
Mech ground and air attack upgrades combined
We've been looking at this for a long time now, and it feels like a solid step in the right direction.
worked out. And that's what I was talking about all along, since you said:
I still don't understand why the changes last patch were made, like any of them.
(and similar things in the first quoted post)
On December 15 2013 23:22 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2013 23:08 Big J wrote:
Well, the usage of Mech has hugely increased. It's not as stable as bio, but the patch really helped and goes in the right direction. That's all I was saying. No need to put it like Chaggi and pretend everything about the patch was wrong when it actually has some very visual positive results. I mean unless one isso delusional and thinks that Mech could have been repaired Mech with a single change in TvZ, the results are as good as they can be given how small those two changes are. Hugely? No, I would say "slightly". And a simple change, suggested by so many people, like Blinding Cloud reducing the range of units under its effect by 5-6, would already result in way more mech play in TvZ than a 3.0 → 2.8 attack speed or merged upgrades.
Well, relatively to before it has hugely increased, that's what I meant. In absolute numbers it's still very rare.
|
When I first started playing WoL beta, I remember using Colossus and thinking "Oh my god! This thing is like War of the Worlds. Look at how much damage this thing does. Awesome!!"
The novelty wore off rather quickly. I feel like it's a unit that portrays Browder's inclination the best: Showy, but terrible for actual gameplay. I wish it would be replaced with a more micro-intensive unit, but I just don't see that happening.
|
On December 16 2013 01:25 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2013 01:06 Sabu113 wrote:On December 16 2013 00:11 Chaggi wrote:On December 15 2013 23:54 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 15 2013 23:41 MattD wrote:
People saying that mech still needs buffing simply don't even play the game. Mech vs zerg is very fucking strong, theres a reason goody has like an 80% win rate with it. Blinding cloud is NOT problem, good mech terrans don't die to blinding cloud timings and without it zerg would have 0 chance to win. The main reason people don't want to play mech every game is because it lasts for 4 fucking hours every time but that has nothing to do with balance it's by design and will not change any time soon. So winning $30k+ prizes isn't enough motivation for Korean Terrans to play longer games? Interesting theory. Little known fact, Terrans can actually get by in life by whining so $$$ isn't a motivation. Taeja is just a Protoss/Zerg player in disguise. What do you mean? Terrans are horrible whiners. Hence the myth of the chosen terran player just "being better" than players of other races and the constant refrains about so many nerfs despite being obviously and demonstrably imabalanced and broken at times in SC2's life cycle. Hell if we listened to half the garbage in this thread we would get rid of collosi so there could be a fair fight between marines and gateway units. So silly. Other races start to also win tournaments and suddenly the world has ended. + Show Spoiler + Look. If Naniwa eclipses Stephano, I am all good. We can get rid of warpgate, collosi, oracles and MsCs then.
Yeh, when you launch the game, you have to complete a survey and if you have a whiney attitude you are redirected to terran, if you have a calm mind it's protoss that is assign to you. Lol. I just think you are reveling into the current ease of playing protoss and don't want to have to work for winning.
It's funny, because when the game first launched, Zerg players were guilty for whining the most. However, in hindsight, we all agree that it was justified.
When the queen/overlord patch started leading to infestor/brood lord play, Terran players complained a bunch but were labeled as "whiners", but now, again, we look back and all agree that something was wrong.
The same thing is happening again now, there is something wrong, but the community is always slow to realize it. However, in a year, we will all agree that there was something broken about TvP early game.
Until then, Terran players are just whiners 
|
I haven't really been following any of the discussion here and it seems like an awful late to sort through, so I'll just leave my two cents here-
I feel like TvP is imbalanced not because of any hard numbers (i.e. if Protoss does X nothing Terran can do will stop them) but rather that Protoss has many options that all require different responses from Terran while Terran has only a few choices that can force a reponse from protoss. In addition, many Protoss openings have the potential to win the game, and a decent number of them (blink stalker / proxy oracle) can transition into a macro game just fine, while Terran has only 1 or 2 (reaper FE and arguably CC first) openings that can consistently transition into a macro game and neither has the potential to do damage. This means Protoss completely dictates the pace of the early game, with the potential to win the game or get a huge advantage but almost never coming out behind.
Mid-Late game TvP is still changing / evolving, and I think we need more time to tell if it's imbalanced either way.
|
A lot of talk about the colossus. I think its hard to balance it because its a units thats good in certain areas, if you can fire directly on it its almost a bad unit because it cost so much. But thats why buffing vipers or fixing feedback would solve the problem in zvp for terran maybe buff vikings. I don't know how protoss is doing now, maybe its not as bad as people think.
|
On December 16 2013 04:54 Usernameffs wrote:
A lot of talk about the colossus. I think its hard to balance it because its a units thats good in certain areas, if you can fire directly on it its almost a bad unit because it cost so much. But thats why buffing vipers or fixing feedback would solve the problem in zvp for terran maybe buff vikings. I don't know how protoss is doing now, maybe its not as bad as people think.
The colossus isn't imbalance, just stupidly designed.
|
Some time ago, I analysed the WCS points and found no race differences, which suggested that at least at the top level over 3 seasons, no race won more points than expected.
Of course, this does not necessarily apply to other levels too, and it is now often said that protoss is over-represented in GM.
I did a Chi-square test to see if this is true. Random players were excluded because they automatically skew the data in higher levels (i.e. there are a lot more random players in lower leagues). There are 361 protoss in global GM, but only 274 would be expected given the racial distribution throughout all leagues. This is a highly significant discrepancy, which would only happen by chance about 1 in 10 billion times. This was also found when only comparing it to master league, although not as strongly.
So, protoss is indeed significantly over-represented in GM, but this effect was previously not found possibly because of the recent patch changes and/or that this effect is suppressed in the pro-gaming scene.
|
On December 16 2013 03:10 Sein wrote:
When I first started playing WoL beta, I remember using Colossus and thinking "Oh my god! This thing is like War of the Worlds. Look at how much damage this thing does. Awesome!!"
The novelty wore off rather quickly. I feel like it's a unit that portrays Browder's inclination the best: Showy, but terrible for actual gameplay. I wish it would be replaced with a more micro-intensive unit, but I just don't see that happening.
one of the people in this thread was talking about how it'd be sweet if they could combine the colossi with the warp prism micro for true massive damage and that it'd be way more fun to watch than in it's current form
|
On December 16 2013 07:56 Astro_Peasant wrote:Some time ago, I analysed the WCS points and found no race differences, which suggested that at least at the top level over 3 seasons, no race won more points than expected. Of course, this does not necessarily apply to other levels too, and it is now often said that protoss is over-represented in GM. I did a Chi-square test to see if this is true. Random players were excluded because they automatically skew the data in higher levels (i.e. there are a lot more random players in lower leagues). There are 361 protoss in global GM, but only 274 would be expected given the racial distribution throughout all leagues. This is a highly significant discrepancy, which would only happen by chance about 1 in 10 billion times. This was also found when only comparing it to master league, although not as strongly. So, protoss is indeed significantly over-represented in GM, but this effect was previously not found possibly because of the recent patch changes and/or that this effect is suppressed in the pro-gaming scene.
Protoss represents 43-45% of GM players worldwide since at least September; don't know before, I wasn't checking numbers, but there was probably some increase after the Hellbat nerf.
|
On December 16 2013 05:15 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2013 04:54 Usernameffs wrote:
A lot of talk about the colossus. I think its hard to balance it because its a units thats good in certain areas, if you can fire directly on it its almost a bad unit because it cost so much. But thats why buffing vipers or fixing feedback would solve the problem in zvp for terran maybe buff vikings. I don't know how protoss is doing now, maybe its not as bad as people think. The colossus isn't imbalance, just stupidly designed.
I like the lore of colossus an ancient war-machine broth up in times of need and struggle.
|
Northern Ireland26036 Posts
It's an aesthetically cool unit, I mean keep the models and lore just make it a bit more interesting in how it functions
|
The lore is silly too. It implies the Protoss as a technologically stagnant race. It looks cool, I'll give it that much.
|
It's been said a million times but the colossus is probably the biggest reason protoss gets such a bad rep in SC2.
Its weird how its such a crucial unit in all army comps yet "colossus micro" as a term doesn't really even exist, and thats entirely Blizzards fault for making the unit so utterly simplistic.
|
On December 16 2013 01:22 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2013 01:06 Sabu113 wrote:On December 16 2013 00:11 Chaggi wrote:On December 15 2013 23:54 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 15 2013 23:41 MattD wrote:
People saying that mech still needs buffing simply don't even play the game. Mech vs zerg is very fucking strong, theres a reason goody has like an 80% win rate with it. Blinding cloud is NOT problem, good mech terrans don't die to blinding cloud timings and without it zerg would have 0 chance to win. The main reason people don't want to play mech every game is because it lasts for 4 fucking hours every time but that has nothing to do with balance it's by design and will not change any time soon. So winning $30k+ prizes isn't enough motivation for Korean Terrans to play longer games? Interesting theory. Little known fact, Terrans can actually get by in life by whining so $$$ isn't a motivation. Taeja is just a Protoss/Zerg player in disguise. What do you mean? Terrans are horrible whiners. Hence the myth of the chosen terran player just "being better" than players of other races and the constant refrains about so many nerfs despite being obviously and demonstrably imabalanced and broken at times in SC2's life cycle. Hell if we listened to half the garbage in this thread we would get rid of collosi so there could be a fair fight between marines and gateway units. So silly. Other races start to also win tournaments and suddenly the world has ended. + Show Spoiler + Look. If Naniwa eclipses Stephano, I am all good. We can get rid of warpgate, collosi, oracles and MsCs then.
And you're gonna tell me that early game TvP isn't broken in favor of the Protoss now? And that if anything it should be revenge for the 1/1/1 era and Protoss had to "innovate" past it. Do Protoss players even enjoy using the colossi? It's such a stupidly designed unit that you have to get to stand against the Terran mid game yet is nothing more than an A move unit. If anything Protoss should scream for a redesign of such a vital unit.
Early game is stupid- but it was also pretty dumb in WoL (I don't know how squirtle holds that 2rax by MvP and I do think we should have seen more of that sort of cheese). [Also this a big point in the inane fallacy that you can't call something stupid early on. The core was obviously terrible in beta but by that I suppose it was too late to actually work on the game.]
Funny you mention the 1/1/1 era... Teaja just won a tournament didn't he.. what Dreamhack? Oh. And the protoss who have been winning randos just like when Aliv- Wait Dear and Rain? Oh. (ok ok MC did give Puma a good run for his money both at IEM and NASL finals even if he was robbed.)
And yeah there have been a thousand protoss threads for redesign. Everyone and their mother wants something like a reaver that we can drop harass with. That would make me so happy. Soooo happy. It was one of my favorite things ever to watch whether it worked or not. Among lots of other things. As much as I would mock Rabiator, I do agree with a lot of his points.
But would a reaver work? Vikings and marauders will end that dream- if the reaver doesn't absolutely devour the marines before that point. What then- a protoss siege tank? Yeah because the super immobile army needs to be even slower. (Hydras=Zealot speed. HTs 1.85 move speed. Hence the need for recall to prevent every situation from being all in.) What terrans just want a late game mech option? I honestly doubt people have the patience to play something as fragile as classic Mech and in sc2 all that means is high damage tanks with beefier marines (or monstrosities like the WarHound that should have gotten someone fired). But that would add so much skill to the "a-move" race right?
It's complete myopia to not see a stimmed amove ball of bio any better. What you click back and forth really quickly? Oh that took a lot of thought and skill. Good thing I can't do anything to counter act it but throw more economy at it. What oh a free boost so that my drops are riskless. Fantastic design decision. Or the crap about how sc2 TvT is the height of perfection. Bleh.
Same with the current whine, the reason why terran players want the collosi gone is fundamentally because it actually is effective against the bio ball. Not game design, their ladder points (and we see that repeatedly through the thread. "What about the ladder fan!"). Same with all the bitching about storm from time to time. How the hell you expect protoss to ever be competitive I don't know but then it's not your concern is it. An even handed approach here would be to take the same pace they took to fixing the 1/1/1 and give terrans 6 months to adapt to it. Normal winrates are definitely a big shock after early HoTS.
Just a touch bitter no one else complained about the balance and design when there were other obvious problems with the game. Little sympathy now when the complaints are just as shallow.
+ Show Spoiler +Ok to be a little positive, I would take a reduction in the MsC duration, in exchange for the ability to perfectly kite stalkers. Someone tweaked WoL so that the firing animation was faster so you could flawlessly micro stalkers earlier on. Hopefully this works with ZvP and it should offer a better option to deal with the dynamics between small marine balls and gateway units. I want this possible:
|
On December 16 2013 08:13 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2013 03:10 Sein wrote:
When I first started playing WoL beta, I remember using Colossus and thinking "Oh my god! This thing is like War of the Worlds. Look at how much damage this thing does. Awesome!!"
The novelty wore off rather quickly. I feel like it's a unit that portrays Browder's inclination the best: Showy, but terrible for actual gameplay. I wish it would be replaced with a more micro-intensive unit, but I just don't see that happening. one of the people in this thread was talking about how it'd be sweet if they could combine the colossi with the warp prism micro for true massive damage and that it'd be way more fun to watch than in it's current form
That's actually a really cool idea. What if it were a stagnent unit, like a seiged tank, but could auto-morph into a flying unit that deals no damage. That way positioning could be a thing for tossers?
|
On December 16 2013 12:15 Sabu113 wrote:But would a reaver work? Vikings and marauders will end that dream- if the reaver doesn't absolutely devour the marines before that point. What then- a protoss siege tank? Yeah because the super immobile army needs to be even slower. (Hydras=Zealot speed. HTs 1.85 move speed. Hence the need for recall to prevent every situation from being all in.) What terrans just want a late game mech option? I honestly doubt people have the patience to play something as fragile as classic Mech and in sc2 all that means is high damage tanks with beefier marines (or monstrosities like the WarHound that should have gotten someone fired). But that would add so much skill to the "a-move" race right?
Same with the current whine, the reason why terran players want the collosi gone is fundamentally because it actually is effective against the bio ball. Not game design, their ladder points (and we see that repeatedly through the thread. "What about the ladder fan!"). Same with all the bitching about storm from time to time. How the hell you expect protoss to ever be competitive I don't know but then it's not your concern is it. An even handed approach here would be to take the same pace they took to fixing the 1/1/1 and give terrans 6 months to adapt to it. Normal winrates are definitely a big shock after early HoTS.
Hmm, that's interesting. So when everyone wants the Colossus gone because it's a horrible, horrible unit, it's Terrans being fundamentally biased. And when those same Terrans called for the death of their own Warhound for the exact same reason...? Where was the bias then? Just disappeared for a few weeks?
You agree that the Colossus is terrible, so just leave it at that. No reason to get into armchair psychology. The community succeeded with the Warhound and that was a victory for SC2 the esport. Now if only Blizzard would get their heads out of their asses for LOTV, we'd be set.
It's complete myopia to not see a stimmed amove ball of bio any better. What you click back and forth really quickly? Oh that took a lot of thought and skill. Good thing I can't do anything to counter act it but throw more economy at it. What oh a free boost so that my drops are riskless. Fantastic design decision. Or the crap about how sc2 TvT is the height of perfection. Bleh.
Innovation vs DRG was the most alive this game - SC2 - has ever looked. Perfect marine splitting, WM repositioning, and drops vs. Baneling splits, Ling runbys and surrounds. You're honestly trying to tell me something in PvT measures up in quality and intensity? Storm dodging. That's all I'll give the entire match up. Bio storm dodging. Storms and EMPs are easier to land than Fungals, and Fungals aren't that skill intensive to begin with.
edit: also Feedback vs. Snipe.
What oh a free boost so that my drops are riskless.
Riskless drops. That's a very interesting claim. Let us compare.
P flies in a single Warp Prism. If it's killed en route, that's 200/0 down the drain.
T flies in a single Medivac full of Marines. If it's killed en route, that's 500/100 down the drain.
P can warp in as many Zealots as he has Gateways, T... has 8 Marines. If he wants more, he has to risk another Medivac.
P can immediately fly off with his Warp Prism. If T leaves his Marines, that means you're fighting stimmed, no-heal Marines. How effective are those again? So the Medivac(s) has to stay over the drop. Stalkers and MSC inc.
Dem riskless T drops.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
