• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 18:45
CEST 00:45
KST 07:45
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Rough Waters10[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Siren's Call8
Community News
StarCraft II 5.0.17 PTR Patch Notes (Sept 30, 2026)19Weekly Cups (Sept 21-27): herO and ByuN double2Weekly Cups (Sep 13-20): herO scores triple3BSL Season 2313Weekly Cups (Sep 7-12): SHIN, ByuN, MaxPax double down1
StarCraft 2
General
StarCraft II 5.0.17 PTR Patch Notes (Sept 30, 2026) StarCraft open world shooter announced at BlizzCon Weekly Cups (Sept 21-27): herO and ByuN double Recent Patches and the Future Stellar Fest 1 Replay Pack
Tourneys
Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20) 2026 GSTL Grand Finals SC2 INu's Battles#21 [ 3-Days tournament ] ScienceCraft (October 24-25) - Live Event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
[M] (2) Sweltering Sands [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 545 And Drops and Rifts Mutation # 544 Double Trouble Mutation # 543 Enhanced Defenses
Brood War
General
Bot on ladder a Announcement on the JEDI Ringing Where can I find Flash replays that work? Official StarCraft website teases new content ahead of BlizzCon? BW General Discussion
Tourneys
[ASL22] Ro8 Day 4 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL22] Ro8 Day 3 [ASL22] Ro8 Day 2
Strategy
Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy) Replay Review Process - What do you do? Simple Questions, Simple Answers Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation
Other Games
General Games
General RTS Discussion Thread Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Total Annihilation Zero Nintendo Switch Thread
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25! Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread All you football fans (soccer)! Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Artificial Intelligence Thread
Fan Clubs
MarineLorD Fan Club The Creator Fan Club The ShoWTimE Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Diablo Animated Series on Netflix
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
Violent-Cooperative Play and…
TrAiDoS
38 yo Retired SWE loo…
PurE)Rabbit-SF
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
[meme] I finally understa…
LUCKY_NOOB
Regacy Esports:Our Goa…
regacyesports
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 8715 users

[WCS] Race point analysis

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Astro_Peasant
Profile Joined November 2013
6 Posts
November 14 2013 10:39 GMT
#1
Since there is a never-ending discussion on balance in Starcraft II, an objective measure would be very useful. This is where the WCS comes in handy. I analysed the points per race to see if there are any significant differences. Because many players are included and points can be earned over several seasons, not just in a single tournament, I think the WCS gives a good picture of pro-level play. I do not mean to generalise these results to other levels of play, and of course in-depth discussions are necessary too, as this analysis says nothing about certain match-ups, builds, units, etc.

Because the points were not distributed normally (very skewed towards the low-end), I ran Kruskal-Wallis tests in PASW 18. With this kind of test, the absolute points are irrelevant, only the relative position is used. The median is therefore a better representative of average race performance than the mean.

Protoss
43 players
Mean: 1400
SEM: 200
Median: 875

Terran
38 players
Mean: 1555
SEM: 274
Median: 800

Zerg
42 players
Mean: 1314
SEM: 200
Median: 700

Race differences
The Kruskal-Wallis test using the Monte Carlo method did not yield a significant result (H(2) = 0.038, p = 0.98). This is almost as close to absence of a difference as possible. I got similar results with an ANOVA, which would be invalid anyway because the assumptions are not met.

Region differences
I also did the analyses per region, and again found no race differences. America: H(2) = 1.38, p = 0.51. Europe: H(2) = 0.68, p = 0.72. Korea: H(2) = 0.15, p = 0.93.The number of players per race per region is about 14, so the sample size is a lot smaller and thus less reliable. However, given the high p-values I think we can be fairly certain there are no race differences, regardless of region.
Finally, I looked at whether certain regions performed better and found no difference (H(2) = 0.96, p = 0.63). I didn't test for differences between nationalities, because Koreans are over-represented.

Thus, all races performed strikingly similar in the WCS.

Note: I posed this on other forums before, but couldn't do so here earlier because of the 3 day waiting period.
Daswollvieh
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
5553 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-11-14 11:02:05
November 14 2013 11:01 GMT
#2
Your stats say nothing about "deserved" wins.

EDIT: Great effort though. Always nice to get some numbers out.
Cereb
Profile Joined November 2011
Denmark3388 Posts
November 14 2013 11:24 GMT
#3
Yay statistics! <3

What a great idea! Wish I had come up with that! I might just repeat your analysis just for fun

Yeah, those data are skewed a lot! Which of course isn't really a surprise.

Two things: Why is your n=123 when there are 125 player datas available on wcs.battle.net. Also that list seems to cut players off who made less than 250 points. Dunno if that is a noticable sample at all but it's of course highly unlike to change the outcome of your analysis at all, if we are even at all interesting in that level of play of course =)


Very nice analysis in general! Thanks for the effort!


Also, why is this in the tournament section? This should probably just be SC2 general.
"Until the very very top in almost anything, all that matters is how much work you put in. The only problem is most people can't work hard even at things they do enjoy, much less things they don't have a real passion for. -Greg "IdrA" Fields
XtreMe_au
Profile Joined August 2012
Australia412 Posts
November 14 2013 11:31 GMT
#4
fantastic analysis! the game really does seem balanced (at the moment...)
Astro_Peasant
Profile Joined November 2013
6 Posts
November 14 2013 11:33 GMT
#5
On November 14 2013 20:24 Cereb wrote:
Yay statistics! <3

What a great idea! Wish I had come up with that! I might just repeat your analysis just for fun

Yeah, those data are skewed a lot! Which of course isn't really a surprise.

Two things: Why is your n=123 when there are 125 player datas available on wcs.battle.net. Also that list seems to cut players off who made less than 250 points. Dunno if that is a noticable sample at all but it's of course highly unlike to change the outcome of your analysis at all, if we are even at all interesting in that level of play of course =)


Very nice analysis in general! Thanks for the effort!


Also, why is this in the tournament section? This should probably just be SC2 general.


I'm glad you liked it! Please feel free to do it as well, you know the importance of replication!

When I collected the data a few days ago, the number 125 was actually number 123 (124 and 125 were missing). It looks like it's fixed on the website now, but they just cut off the list at 125 anyway. Is there a longer list then?

I put it in tournaments because it is about a tournament, otherwise people start to complain again it's not representative of "SC2 general", but I think it would fit in there too.
Markwerf
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands3728 Posts
November 14 2013 11:47 GMT
#6
Could even justify this by doing simple t-tests, 40ish players is probably enough to make the distribution of the mean relatively normal. Anyway just looking at the numbers it's pretty obvious this wouldn;t give any significant result no matter what test you do.
It's an interesting idea for a test though because it elegantly uses the data of a whole year of HotS and it's actually independent datapoints. The general problem I frown about with lot of these statistical approaches to balance is that they are often coming from a tournament here and there where the data is not independent at all; the good players play more matches and highly influence the data.
I still wish they would just post winrates from grandmaster corrected for skill, that is still the best single way to look at the balance I think.
Cereb
Profile Joined November 2011
Denmark3388 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-11-14 11:55:58
November 14 2013 11:49 GMT
#7
On November 14 2013 20:33 Astro_Peasant wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 14 2013 20:24 Cereb wrote:
Yay statistics! <3

What a great idea! Wish I had come up with that! I might just repeat your analysis just for fun

Yeah, those data are skewed a lot! Which of course isn't really a surprise.

Two things: Why is your n=123 when there are 125 player datas available on wcs.battle.net. Also that list seems to cut players off who made less than 250 points. Dunno if that is a noticable sample at all but it's of course highly unlike to change the outcome of your analysis at all, if we are even at all interesting in that level of play of course =)


Very nice analysis in general! Thanks for the effort!


Also, why is this in the tournament section? This should probably just be SC2 general.


I'm glad you liked it! Please feel free to do it as well, you know the importance of replication!

When I collected the data a few days ago, the number 125 was actually number 123 (124 and 125 were missing). It looks like it's fixed on the website now, but they just cut off the list at 125 anyway. Is there a longer list then?

I put it in tournaments because it is about a tournament, otherwise people start to complain again it's not representative of "SC2 general", but I think it would fit in there too.



Ah, ok! Makes sense! Don't know where to find a longer list, but honestly, I feel it's very much reasonable to just use the top 125, especially since it's not just some arbitrary cut-off, but because that is what Blizzard listed, and it's a pretty decent sample size for the chosen analysis regardless

Hehe, yeah it's not easy selecting the "right" forum! It seems though that "SC2 Tournaments" is mostly for the actual tournaments and their matches, whereas SC2 general is more for discussion overall results of those and this really encompasses the entirety of last season =)

On November 14 2013 20:47 Markwerf wrote:
Could even justify this by doing simple t-tests, 40ish players is probably enough to make the distribution of the mean relatively normal. Anyway just looking at the numbers it's pretty obvious this wouldn;t give any significant result no matter what test you do.
It's an interesting idea for a test though because it elegantly uses the data of a whole year of HotS and it's actually independent datapoints. The general problem I frown about with lot of these statistical approaches to balance is that they are often coming from a tournament here and there where the data is not independent at all; the good players play more matches and highly influence the data.
I still wish they would just post winrates from grandmaster corrected for skill, that is still the best single way to look at the balance I think.


Indeed! But how would you actually adjust for skill? As it's a very ambiguous term I feel. I can't think of anything other than adjusting for MMR which I think they claim to be doing already.
"Until the very very top in almost anything, all that matters is how much work you put in. The only problem is most people can't work hard even at things they do enjoy, much less things they don't have a real passion for. -Greg "IdrA" Fields
Astro_Peasant
Profile Joined November 2013
6 Posts
November 14 2013 12:03 GMT
#8
On November 14 2013 20:47 Markwerf wrote:
Could even justify this by doing simple t-tests, 40ish players is probably enough to make the distribution of the mean relatively normal. Anyway just looking at the numbers it's pretty obvious this wouldn;t give any significant result no matter what test you do.
It's an interesting idea for a test though because it elegantly uses the data of a whole year of HotS and it's actually independent datapoints. The general problem I frown about with lot of these statistical approaches to balance is that they are often coming from a tournament here and there where the data is not independent at all; the good players play more matches and highly influence the data.
I still wish they would just post winrates from grandmaster corrected for skill, that is still the best single way to look at the balance I think.


So the data was far removed from normality (K-S test), and other assumptions like homogeneity of variance was not met either. ANOVA is basically a t-test for multiple groups, which as I said, had similar results to the nonparametric test.

The good players play more matches because they are better, and thus have more points. And since there are about the same number of players for each race, this is not an issue.

How would one correct for skill in grandmaster? There are many interesting analyses that could be done with ladder data, especially if you include multiple levels like match-ups and match duration, which would give a more detailed picture. But that would take a lot of work to collect unless someone already has a well-ordered dataset.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 11h 15m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ViBE163
Nina 112
Nathanias 66
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 14901
Artosis 499
White-Ra 272
ToSsGirL 32
Dota 2
monkeys_forever414
NeuroSwarm126
League of Legends
Doublelift3629
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox951
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor1915
Liquid`Hasu1428
Trikslyr61
Other Games
summit1g7957
Grubby4113
ArmadaUGS1073
shahzam588
JimRising 295
C9.Mang0267
ZombieGrub57
Mew2King44
Organizations
Other Games
BasetradeTV212
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream110
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• musti20045 41
• Hupsaiya 28
• davetesta28
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• blackmanpl 40
• Azhi_Dahaki28
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Other Games
• imaqtpie1118
• Scarra947
• Shiphtur259
Upcoming Events
The PondCast
11h 15m
OSC
14h 15m
Stellar Fest
14h 15m
OSC
1d 1h
Stellar Fest
1d 14h
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
Online Event
2 days
FEL
2 days
AI Arena Tournament
2 days
BSL: Ladder Tournament
2 days
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
INu's Battles
3 days
herO vs Classic
Percival vs Rogue
BSL Open Qualifier
3 days
BSL Open Qualifier
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
WardiTV Weekly
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
INu's Battles
5 days
SHIN vs Cure
ByuN vs Zoun
PiGosaur Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-09-27
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Calamity Invitational

Ongoing

ASL Season 22
Super Anchor Qualifying S3
CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
Acropolis #5
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3

Upcoming

Acropolis #5 - GSB
Acropolis #5 - GSC
BSL Season 23
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Custodian Cup
Copium Cup
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.