• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 23:59
CEST 05:59
KST 12:59
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt2: News Flash3[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt1: New Chaos0Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - Presented by Monster Energy9ByuL: The Forgotten Master of ZvT30Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book20
Community News
Weekly Cups (March 16-22): herO doubles, Cure surprises3Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool48Weekly Cups (March 9-15): herO, Clem, ByuN win42026 KungFu Cup Announcement6BGE Stara Zagora 2026 cancelled12
StarCraft 2
General
What mix of new & old maps do you want in the next ladder pool? (SC2) Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - Presented by Monster Energy Potential Updates Coming to the SC2 CN Server Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book herO wins SC2 All-Star Invitational
Tourneys
RSL Season 4 announced for March-April Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament StarCraft Evolution League (SC Evo Biweekly) WardiTV Mondays World University TeamLeague (500$+) | Signups Open
Strategy
Custom Maps
[M] (2) Frigid Storage Publishing has been re-enabled! [Feb 24th 2026]
External Content
Mutation # 519 Inner Power The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 518 Radiation Zone Mutation # 517 Distant Threat
Brood War
General
[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt2: News Flash ASL21 General Discussion Pros React To: SoulKey vs Ample RepMastered™: replay sharing and analyzer site KK Platform will provide 1 million CNY
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL21] Ro24 Group C [ASL21] Ro24 Group D [ASL21] Ro24 Group B
Strategy
What's the deal with APM & what's its true value Fighting Spirit mining rates Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Darkest Dungeon Path of Exile
Dota 2
The Story of Wings Gaming Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
G2 just beat GenG in First stand
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread The Games Industry And ATVI European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books Movie Discussion!
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2026 Football Thread Cricket [SPORT] Tokyo Olympics 2021 Thread General nutrition recommendations
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
[G] How to Block Livestream Ads
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Money Laundering In Video Ga…
TrAiDoS
Iranian anarchists: organize…
XenOsky
FS++
Kraekkling
Shocked by a laser…
Spydermine0240
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 10540 users

[WCS] Race point analysis

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Astro_Peasant
Profile Joined November 2013
6 Posts
November 14 2013 10:39 GMT
#1
Since there is a never-ending discussion on balance in Starcraft II, an objective measure would be very useful. This is where the WCS comes in handy. I analysed the points per race to see if there are any significant differences. Because many players are included and points can be earned over several seasons, not just in a single tournament, I think the WCS gives a good picture of pro-level play. I do not mean to generalise these results to other levels of play, and of course in-depth discussions are necessary too, as this analysis says nothing about certain match-ups, builds, units, etc.

Because the points were not distributed normally (very skewed towards the low-end), I ran Kruskal-Wallis tests in PASW 18. With this kind of test, the absolute points are irrelevant, only the relative position is used. The median is therefore a better representative of average race performance than the mean.

Protoss
43 players
Mean: 1400
SEM: 200
Median: 875

Terran
38 players
Mean: 1555
SEM: 274
Median: 800

Zerg
42 players
Mean: 1314
SEM: 200
Median: 700

Race differences
The Kruskal-Wallis test using the Monte Carlo method did not yield a significant result (H(2) = 0.038, p = 0.98). This is almost as close to absence of a difference as possible. I got similar results with an ANOVA, which would be invalid anyway because the assumptions are not met.

Region differences
I also did the analyses per region, and again found no race differences. America: H(2) = 1.38, p = 0.51. Europe: H(2) = 0.68, p = 0.72. Korea: H(2) = 0.15, p = 0.93.The number of players per race per region is about 14, so the sample size is a lot smaller and thus less reliable. However, given the high p-values I think we can be fairly certain there are no race differences, regardless of region.
Finally, I looked at whether certain regions performed better and found no difference (H(2) = 0.96, p = 0.63). I didn't test for differences between nationalities, because Koreans are over-represented.

Thus, all races performed strikingly similar in the WCS.

Note: I posed this on other forums before, but couldn't do so here earlier because of the 3 day waiting period.
Daswollvieh
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
5553 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-11-14 11:02:05
November 14 2013 11:01 GMT
#2
Your stats say nothing about "deserved" wins.

EDIT: Great effort though. Always nice to get some numbers out.
Cereb
Profile Joined November 2011
Denmark3388 Posts
November 14 2013 11:24 GMT
#3
Yay statistics! <3

What a great idea! Wish I had come up with that! I might just repeat your analysis just for fun

Yeah, those data are skewed a lot! Which of course isn't really a surprise.

Two things: Why is your n=123 when there are 125 player datas available on wcs.battle.net. Also that list seems to cut players off who made less than 250 points. Dunno if that is a noticable sample at all but it's of course highly unlike to change the outcome of your analysis at all, if we are even at all interesting in that level of play of course =)


Very nice analysis in general! Thanks for the effort!


Also, why is this in the tournament section? This should probably just be SC2 general.
"Until the very very top in almost anything, all that matters is how much work you put in. The only problem is most people can't work hard even at things they do enjoy, much less things they don't have a real passion for. -Greg "IdrA" Fields
XtreMe_au
Profile Joined August 2012
Australia412 Posts
November 14 2013 11:31 GMT
#4
fantastic analysis! the game really does seem balanced (at the moment...)
Astro_Peasant
Profile Joined November 2013
6 Posts
November 14 2013 11:33 GMT
#5
On November 14 2013 20:24 Cereb wrote:
Yay statistics! <3

What a great idea! Wish I had come up with that! I might just repeat your analysis just for fun

Yeah, those data are skewed a lot! Which of course isn't really a surprise.

Two things: Why is your n=123 when there are 125 player datas available on wcs.battle.net. Also that list seems to cut players off who made less than 250 points. Dunno if that is a noticable sample at all but it's of course highly unlike to change the outcome of your analysis at all, if we are even at all interesting in that level of play of course =)


Very nice analysis in general! Thanks for the effort!


Also, why is this in the tournament section? This should probably just be SC2 general.


I'm glad you liked it! Please feel free to do it as well, you know the importance of replication!

When I collected the data a few days ago, the number 125 was actually number 123 (124 and 125 were missing). It looks like it's fixed on the website now, but they just cut off the list at 125 anyway. Is there a longer list then?

I put it in tournaments because it is about a tournament, otherwise people start to complain again it's not representative of "SC2 general", but I think it would fit in there too.
Markwerf
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands3728 Posts
November 14 2013 11:47 GMT
#6
Could even justify this by doing simple t-tests, 40ish players is probably enough to make the distribution of the mean relatively normal. Anyway just looking at the numbers it's pretty obvious this wouldn;t give any significant result no matter what test you do.
It's an interesting idea for a test though because it elegantly uses the data of a whole year of HotS and it's actually independent datapoints. The general problem I frown about with lot of these statistical approaches to balance is that they are often coming from a tournament here and there where the data is not independent at all; the good players play more matches and highly influence the data.
I still wish they would just post winrates from grandmaster corrected for skill, that is still the best single way to look at the balance I think.
Cereb
Profile Joined November 2011
Denmark3388 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-11-14 11:55:58
November 14 2013 11:49 GMT
#7
On November 14 2013 20:33 Astro_Peasant wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 14 2013 20:24 Cereb wrote:
Yay statistics! <3

What a great idea! Wish I had come up with that! I might just repeat your analysis just for fun

Yeah, those data are skewed a lot! Which of course isn't really a surprise.

Two things: Why is your n=123 when there are 125 player datas available on wcs.battle.net. Also that list seems to cut players off who made less than 250 points. Dunno if that is a noticable sample at all but it's of course highly unlike to change the outcome of your analysis at all, if we are even at all interesting in that level of play of course =)


Very nice analysis in general! Thanks for the effort!


Also, why is this in the tournament section? This should probably just be SC2 general.


I'm glad you liked it! Please feel free to do it as well, you know the importance of replication!

When I collected the data a few days ago, the number 125 was actually number 123 (124 and 125 were missing). It looks like it's fixed on the website now, but they just cut off the list at 125 anyway. Is there a longer list then?

I put it in tournaments because it is about a tournament, otherwise people start to complain again it's not representative of "SC2 general", but I think it would fit in there too.



Ah, ok! Makes sense! Don't know where to find a longer list, but honestly, I feel it's very much reasonable to just use the top 125, especially since it's not just some arbitrary cut-off, but because that is what Blizzard listed, and it's a pretty decent sample size for the chosen analysis regardless

Hehe, yeah it's not easy selecting the "right" forum! It seems though that "SC2 Tournaments" is mostly for the actual tournaments and their matches, whereas SC2 general is more for discussion overall results of those and this really encompasses the entirety of last season =)

On November 14 2013 20:47 Markwerf wrote:
Could even justify this by doing simple t-tests, 40ish players is probably enough to make the distribution of the mean relatively normal. Anyway just looking at the numbers it's pretty obvious this wouldn;t give any significant result no matter what test you do.
It's an interesting idea for a test though because it elegantly uses the data of a whole year of HotS and it's actually independent datapoints. The general problem I frown about with lot of these statistical approaches to balance is that they are often coming from a tournament here and there where the data is not independent at all; the good players play more matches and highly influence the data.
I still wish they would just post winrates from grandmaster corrected for skill, that is still the best single way to look at the balance I think.


Indeed! But how would you actually adjust for skill? As it's a very ambiguous term I feel. I can't think of anything other than adjusting for MMR which I think they claim to be doing already.
"Until the very very top in almost anything, all that matters is how much work you put in. The only problem is most people can't work hard even at things they do enjoy, much less things they don't have a real passion for. -Greg "IdrA" Fields
Astro_Peasant
Profile Joined November 2013
6 Posts
November 14 2013 12:03 GMT
#8
On November 14 2013 20:47 Markwerf wrote:
Could even justify this by doing simple t-tests, 40ish players is probably enough to make the distribution of the mean relatively normal. Anyway just looking at the numbers it's pretty obvious this wouldn;t give any significant result no matter what test you do.
It's an interesting idea for a test though because it elegantly uses the data of a whole year of HotS and it's actually independent datapoints. The general problem I frown about with lot of these statistical approaches to balance is that they are often coming from a tournament here and there where the data is not independent at all; the good players play more matches and highly influence the data.
I still wish they would just post winrates from grandmaster corrected for skill, that is still the best single way to look at the balance I think.


So the data was far removed from normality (K-S test), and other assumptions like homogeneity of variance was not met either. ANOVA is basically a t-test for multiple groups, which as I said, had similar results to the nonparametric test.

The good players play more matches because they are better, and thus have more points. And since there are about the same number of players for each race, this is not an issue.

How would one correct for skill in grandmaster? There are many interesting analyses that could be done with ladder data, especially if you include multiple levels like match-ups and match duration, which would give a more detailed picture. But that would take a lot of work to collect unless someone already has a well-ordered dataset.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 5h 1m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RuFF_SC2 247
StarCraft: Brood War
GuemChi 6319
Zeus 103
NaDa 49
Bale 30
Icarus 7
Dota 2
NeuroSwarm113
League of Legends
JimRising 605
Other Games
summit1g10976
WinterStarcraft480
Maynarde102
Mew2King76
ViBE52
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH245
• davetesta46
• practicex 1
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Rush854
Other Games
• Scarra1318
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
5h 1m
Afreeca Starleague
6h 1m
Light vs Calm
Royal vs Mind
Wardi Open
7h 1m
Monday Night Weeklies
12h 1m
Replay Cast
20h 1m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 6h
Afreeca Starleague
1d 6h
Rush vs PianO
Flash vs Speed
PiGosaur Cup
1d 20h
Replay Cast
2 days
Afreeca Starleague
2 days
BeSt vs Leta
Queen vs Jaedong
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
2 days
The PondCast
3 days
OSC
3 days
RSL Revival
4 days
TriGGeR vs Cure
ByuN vs Rogue
Replay Cast
4 days
RSL Revival
5 days
Maru vs MaxPax
BSL
5 days
RSL Revival
6 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
6 days
BSL
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

2026 Changsha Offline CUP
WardiTV Winter 2026
NationLESS Cup

Ongoing

BSL Season 22
CSL Elite League 2026
CSL Season 20: Qualifier 1
ASL Season 21
Acropolis #4 - TS6
StarCraft2 Community Team League 2026 Spring
RSL Revival: Season 4
Nations Cup 2026
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual

Upcoming

CSL Season 20: Qualifier 2
Escore Tournament S2: W1
CSL 2026 SPRING (S20)
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
CCT Season 3 Global Finals
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.