EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 851
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AxionSteel
United States7754 Posts
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Qwerty85
Croatia5536 Posts
On December 20 2013 21:47 AxionSteel wrote: Raven/viking goes ok. (yes i am aware of feedback). I must admit I never actually watched such game where terran goes mech and toss has tempests and templar. I would really love to see that. Any VODs available? On paper, in theory it seems to me that toss should have an advantage because (as you said) of feedback + huge tempest range but as I said, I never actually saw it in actual game. | ||
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AxionSteel
United States7754 Posts
On December 20 2013 22:04 Qwerty85 wrote: I must admit I never actually watched such game where terran goes mech and toss has tempests and templar. I would really love to see that. Any VODs available? On paper, in theory it seems to me that toss should have an advantage because (as you said) of feedback + huge tempest range but as I said, I never actually saw it in actual game. You'd have to look up stream vods of people like avilo, Strelok etc. HeroMarine was messing around with mech last night as well. avilo makes BF Hellions to dart in and try and pick off some templars. It's not as bad as it seems, I don't think tempests are TOO unstoppable vs mech, although i've yet to see a protoss who gets tempests lose vs a bio player in a long game. From my personal experience and from what i've watched, carriers seem far stronger. I could be wrong though. | ||
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Qwerty85
Croatia5536 Posts
On December 20 2013 22:09 AxionSteel wrote: You'd have to look up stream vods of people like avilo, Strelok etc. HeroMarine was messing around with mech last night as well. avilo makes BF Hellions to dart in and try and pick off some templars. It's not as bad as it seems, I don't think tempests are TOO bad vs mech, from my personal experience and from what i've watched, carriers seem far stronger. I could be wrong though. Avilo kind of annoys me but I will check it out, thanks  | ||
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shockaslim
United States1105 Posts
On December 20 2013 10:41 Wingblade wrote: It seemed ok in Wings when Protoss was essentially forced into the same thing. There are some differences though. Back in WoL Terran could at least control the flow of the early-midgame, they no longer can afford that luxury and it has been totally reversed. On top of that, Protoss STILL controls the flow of the game going into the late game. Protoss also has a plethora of openers while Terran really just has one. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On December 20 2013 22:09 AxionSteel wrote: You'd have to look up stream vods of people like avilo, Strelok etc. HeroMarine was messing around with mech last night as well. avilo makes BF Hellions to dart in and try and pick off some templars. It's not as bad as it seems, I don't think tempests are TOO unstoppable vs mech, although i've yet to see a protoss who gets tempests lose vs a bio player in a long game. From my personal experience and from what i've watched, carriers seem far stronger. I could be wrong though. Carriers are way harder to deal with, I agree. Vikings are very effective against tempests if you can force an engagement and PDD is obviously very good too. Carriers on the other hand kill vikings really quickly and ravens don't do much against them. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On December 20 2013 10:41 Wingblade wrote: It seemed ok in Wings when Protoss was essentially forced into the same thing. What a grotesque rewriting of WoL TvP... 1. Protoss had options, even after expand, but perhaps you conveniently forgot quick thirds, Immortal busts, DTs, 4g, 5g, 6-7g, 8g after quick third, Storm all-ins, Colossi all-ins?... I spare you the full list of 1-base all-ins so you don't feel too ashamed from writing something so blatantly wrong. 2. Protoss had a universal safe opening, 1 gate expand into 3gR, that could reactively deal with anything, from 1-base all-ins to 1 rax CC CC. Compare with HotS Terran universal builds which require tons of adjustments based on unobtainable knowledge (e. g. scouted 2-bases Blink? still zero way to know if Protoss is going to warp 6 Stalkers or build 2 Forges + chrono Charge and laugh at your forced overreaction) since Protoss goes from full agression to full macro at will because of the outrageous flexibility provided by Warpgate/chrono/MSC. The problem is not only that Terran is pidgeonholed into a few predictable builds, it is that those builds still fall short in some situations because Protoss can play in ways they should never have access to (attacks that have the strength of an all-in without being all-in at all, smooth and low risk / high reward agression → macro transitions because of a dumb Swiss Army knife unit). | ||
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TurboMaN
Germany925 Posts
And Korea is supposed to be the country where the best Terran players come from. ![[image loading]](http://s1.directupload.net/images/131220/temp/nvmph3w5.png) | ||
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riceant
Canada54 Posts
We terrans are obviously bad, we just need to learn to handle everything better and improve, SINCE BALANCE DOES NOT MATTER BELOW MID MASTER LEVEL ANYWAY!!! We just need to improve! Balance problems don't exist below that level, because, well, everyone can improve sooo much... So here's a proposition: Since balance doesn't matter, let's test out 50/25 marauders and 50/50 medivacs, and 4 supply thors! Also, stim and warp gate cost the same, and chrono costs 50 minerals to use. Lets give photon overcharge a buff! (costs ONLY 50 energy, and does 5 damage per shot, what a wonderful buff!) Also, ghosts should have a new ability called "prevent ability" with radius 10 that reduces the duration of spells that are casted in that radius by 80% just like time warp prevents movement. I mean, balance doesn't matter, because you can obviously get better, right? Cuz below mid-masters, JUST GET BETTER!!! I mean, obviously YOU wouldn't complain because you are such good citizens of starcraft giving awesome advice to other players, so you would obviously take your own advice. Let's try out those changes for a few months ok? I mean, I even buffed photon overcharge for you! Relax, you just have to adapt, eventually the winrates will even out. | ||
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fdsdfg
United States1251 Posts
On December 21 2013 01:14 riceant wrote: Hi Protoss players, We terrans are obviously bad, we just need to learn to handle everything better and improve, SINCE BALANCE DOES NOT MATTER BELOW MID MASTER LEVEL ANYWAY!!! We just need to improve! Balance problems don't exist below that level, because, well, everyone can improve sooo much... So here's a proposition: Since balance doesn't matter, let's test out 50/25 marauders and 50/50 medivacs, and 4 supply thors! Also, stim and warp gate cost the same, and chrono costs 50 minerals to use. Lets give photon overcharge a buff! (costs ONLY 50 energy, and does 5 damage per shot, what a wonderful buff!) Also, ghosts should have a new ability called "prevent ability" with radius 10 that reduces the duration of spells that are casted in that radius by 80% just like time warp prevents movement. I mean, balance doesn't matter, because you can obviously get better, right? Cuz below mid-masters, JUST GET BETTER!!! I mean, obviously YOU wouldn't complain because you are such good citizens of starcraft giving awesome advice to other players, so you would obviously take your own advice. Let's try out those changes for a few months ok? I mean, I even buffed photon overcharge for you! Relax, you just have to adapt, eventually the winrates will even out. Nice, you completely dismantled the opinion that nobody has. | ||
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Wingblade
United States1806 Posts
On December 21 2013 00:20 TheDwf wrote: What a grotesque rewriting of WoL TvP... 1. Protoss had options, even after expand, but perhaps you conveniently forgot quick thirds, Immortal busts, DTs, 4g, 5g, 6-7g, 8g after quick third, Storm all-ins, Colossi all-ins?... I spare you the full list of 1-base all-ins so you don't feel too ashamed from writing something so blatantly wrong. 2. Protoss had a universal safe opening, 1 gate expand into 3gR, that could reactively deal with anything, from 1-base all-ins to 1 rax CC CC. Compare with HotS Terran universal builds which require tons of adjustments based on unobtainable knowledge (e. g. scouted 2-bases Blink? still zero way to know if Protoss is going to warp 6 Stalkers or build 2 Forges + chrono Charge and laugh at your forced overreaction) since Protoss goes from full agression to full macro at will because of the outrageous flexibility provided by Warpgate/chrono/MSC. The problem is not only that Terran is pidgeonholed into a few predictable builds, it is that those builds still fall short in some situations because Protoss can play in ways they should never have access to (attacks that have the strength of an all-in without being all-in at all, smooth and low risk / high reward agression → macro transitions because of a dumb Swiss Army knife unit). I love it when Terrans list every build that beat them on ladder or builds that one pro used one or twice, or a build that had been dead for months(seriously, 4gate?). 1 base all-ins? Sure maybe there were some in 2011 but come on at least pretend to give an effort. You listed 4 different builds that are essentially the same but with more gateways which changes the level of aggression, but it's still an early gateway bust. Colossi all-ins were popular for about 2 weeks when HerO beat Taeja in DH Winter finals 2012 and Squirtle did it a little bit longer. The 8gate 3 nexus build was something I saw PartinG do like twice, it wasn't exactly viable for any long period of time. By this logic every build mixed into a long series or usable on ladder in Diamond league is viable. 1-1-1, proxy 2rax, banshees, hellion openings. Apparently anything done in any pro game ever is considered viable in your book. 1 gate expand into 2-3 gates could react to anything if you could actually scout it, which in Wings if a Terran put any effort into denying scouting meant that you essentially couldn't. An observer getting to the Terran base around 6:30 or 7 with standard robo timing was really helpful when the medivac was already unloading the 4 hellions in your base, or the tank-raven 1-1-1 push was already moving out, or the banshee was just outside your natural. Does Terran need more flexibility? Yes it's pretty obvious. But pretending like there is some mega super imbalance that is killing the game is just whiny hyperbole | ||
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ChristianS
United States3277 Posts
On December 21 2013 01:33 Wingblade wrote: I love it when Terrans list every build that beat them on ladder or builds that one pro used one or twice, or a build that had been dead for months(seriously, 4gate?). 1 base all-ins? Sure maybe there were some in 2011 but come on at least pretend to give an effort. You listed 4 different builds that are essentially the same but with more gateways which changes the level of aggression, but it's still an early gateway bust. Colossi all-ins were popular for about 2 weeks when HerO beat Taeja in DH Winter finals 2012 and Squirtle did it a little bit longer. The 8gate 3 nexus build was something I saw PartinG do like twice, it wasn't exactly viable for any long period of time. By this logic every build mixed into a long series or usable on ladder in Diamond league is viable. 1-1-1, proxy 2rax, banshees, hellion openings. Apparently anything done in any pro game ever is considered viable in your book. 1 gate expand into 2-3 gates could react to anything if you could actually scout it, which in Wings if a Terran put any effort into denying scouting meant that you essentially couldn't. An observer getting to the Terran base around 6:30 or 7 with standard robo timing was really helpful when the medivac was already unloading the 4 hellions in your base, or the tank-raven 1-1-1 push was already moving out, or the banshee was just outside your natural. Does Terran need more flexibility? Yes it's pretty obvious. But pretending like there is some mega super imbalance that is killing the game is just whiny hyperbole He didn't say there was a mega super imbalance, he said Protoss had more builds in WoL than Terran has now. And you're confusing "this build was popular" with "this build was possible." Sure, people didn't 4gate a lot in PvT (although it was never actually dead, there were always people hiding a pylon somewhere in the Terran base and 4gating from it, not to mention warp prisming in a 4gate), but you COULD and you'd win games with it. That means Terrans had to account for the possibility, even if it didn't happen very often. Same goes for colossus all-ins, gateway busts, dark templar, and everything else scary the Protoss could hide. By contrast, Protoss does not need to account for 2rax or banshees because they already have everything they need to defend it in most cases. If Terran goes 2rax in HotS, Protoss will go "huh, that's weird," defend with overcharge, and collect the win. By comparison if a WoL Protoss went immortal bust and you didn't account for it, you died. And I didn't play Protoss in WoL, but my understanding is you just needed to verify the Terran was on 1-base to defend with 1gate expo. Whether it's hellion drop or 2rax or 1-1-1, you just needed to know you he hadn't expanded and you knew everything you needed to defend. That is not true of current TvP. | ||
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TurboMaN
Germany925 Posts
Raise the skill level again (like in Broodwar): - No Auto-Mine - Only 12 Units per control group - Only 1 Building can be selected at a time - No command queues for buildings - Remove auto surround, so unmicroed units in the back can't fire THIS would make the game harder and allins would be more difficult. For me Broodwar is still the better game, because it's more fair to the better player. How often do you see Pros lose vs amateurs in BW? Yes 1 out of 100. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On December 21 2013 01:33 Wingblade wrote: I love it when Terrans list every build that beat them on ladder or builds that one pro used one or twice, or a build that had been dead for months(seriously, 4gate?). 1 base all-ins? Sure maybe there were some in 2011 but come on at least pretend to give an effort. You listed 4 different builds that are essentially the same but with more gateways which changes the level of aggression, but it's still an early gateway bust. I love it when low level Protoss who don't even know their own race still come and adamant that all is fine, calling upon 2011 WoL and dubious revising of the match-up to refute/minimize the current issues. 1-base all-ins were dead in 2012 in PvT? Really? Never saw a Blink Stalker all-in in WoL? Never saw a proxy Immortal bust? Never saw a Void Ray + 3-4g all-in warping Zealots in the high ground? Never saw a 4g Prism? Did you even play the game at that time? I listed "4 different builds that are essentially the same but with more gateways which changes the level of aggression, but it's still an early gateway bust". Oh, OK. So the builds are different, the level of agression, from mild pressure to severe all-in, is different, the timings are different, but since they operate with the same 3 units, "they're essentially the same". Yeah, right. Also, since you failed to understand it, I was talking about 4g pressure after expand, not the 1-base variant (which still existed, yes). Colossi all-ins were popular for about 2 weeks when HerO beat Taeja in DH Winter finals 2012 and Squirtle did it a little bit longer. The 8gate 3 nexus build was something I saw PartinG do like twice, it wasn't exactly viable for any long period of time. I don't care about the popularity or even the "full viability" of all those openings. Things like gasless 3 rax expand, various forms of 2 rax, Cloak Banshee after expands, etc., were rare too from the Terran side but they still existed; the possibility was there, so the other side had to account for it. Just because 1 rax FE was the most played build doesn't mean those "peripheral builds" had no existence or role in the grand scheme of things. By this logic every build mixed into a long series or usable on ladder in Diamond league is viable. 1-1-1, proxy 2rax, banshees, hellion openings. Apparently anything done in any pro game ever is considered viable in your book. No. I wouldn't list stuff like proxy gate in WoL, for instance, because walls were standard and would automatically thwart it; but I would in HotS, since walls are much rarer as you auto-lose them to stalks/MSC pokes + there are stronger transitions + CC first is more common. The viability of something has to do with the threats it carries vs builds/things commonly used, but I spare you this as you need to understand at least the very basics of the match-up to get that. 1 gate expand into 2-3 gates could react to anything if you could actually scout it, which in Wings if a Terran put any effort into denying scouting meant that you essentially couldn't. An observer getting to the Terran base around 6:30 or 7 with standard robo timing was really helpful when the medivac was already unloading the 4 hellions in your base, or the tank-raven 1-1-1 push was already moving out, or the banshee was just outside your natural. Hilarious. The Observer isn't even out at 6'30 with the earlier HotS robo timing and you think the WoL robo timing could have it in Terran's base at this time? Can't you at least know your stuff so you can try to defend your race properly? An Observer could not hit Terran's base before 7:30 – 7:45 in the best case when going 1 gate expand into gate gate robo. Guess why Protoss used the following timings at first? 7:40 Double assimilator at your natural 7:50 Double forge http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=292549 So that you could cancel them if you suddenly found Terran was going 1-1-1 all-in when your Observer reached his base. How come I have to teach you this? The Banshee was "just outside your natural" when your first Observer arrived in Terran's base? Such a tragic situation indeed; if only you could build a second Observer after the first one so that it would be there in time for the said Banshee… FAQs Why such a fast robo? This is the fastest robo in any 1 gate expand into 3 gate robo build I’ve ever seen. The reason for the fast robo is safety. Timing-wise, your 2nd observer will be popping out at around the same time as the first cloaked banshee comes to your base. However, more importantly, the faster your first observer gets to your opponent’s base, the faster you can know if he’s 1 basing you or has expanded. This scouting information is invaluable, as it tells you whether you should cut probes to optimally defend an allin or chorno probes to gain economy versus a expansion build. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=294136#1 (And please notice this was written before the Observer build time buff.) May I use some of my notes from the end of WoL to further bury your statement ("Protoss was essentially forced into the same thing")? Here is a list of some PvTs with a brief description of some of the non-standard Protoss openings used: + Show Spoiler + IEM Katowice LucifroN vs PartinG, Daybreak : Hellions/Banshees triple OC → bio vs quick third. LucifroN vs PartinG, Metropolis : gas first Hellion drop vs 3g. Dream vs PartinG, Metropolis : 6g. YoDa vs Socke, Daybreak : 6g. YoDa vs Socke, Entombed Valley : 2 rax (lab + naked) vs 2gR expand. Code S Season 1 2013 YoDa vs Squirtle, Icarus: proxy Immo bust. ByuN vs PartinG, Icarus: proxy Immortal bust. [Wingblade: "1 base all-ins? Sure maybe there were some in 2011 (...)"] ByuN vs PartinG, Neo Planet S: gas first Reactor Hellion vs 3g exe. GuMiho vs MC, Akilon Flats: 1 rax FE → 4 rax vs 1g exe → 3g pressure. GuMiho vs MC, Daybreak: Hellions/Banshees 10/2 Cloak → bio vs 1g exe → 3g → 3gR → 2-bases 6gR all-in (one Immortal). IPTL KrasS vs Seed, Daybreak: quick third → 5g forge Twilight (Blink → Charge) → 8g double forge + Archives → 10g. LucifroN vs Seed, Whirlwind: FFE → 7g +1 armor → reactive wall + Robo upon scouting Hellions vs 1 rax CC → Hellions/Banshees → bio. MMA vs Tassadar, Atlantis Spaceship: proxy marau → 2 rax expand vs Zealot/Stalker/Stalker/Stalker → in base Stargate → 3gS Voids all-in. GuMiho vs Sage, Atlantis Spaceship: DT expand. jjakji vs HerO, Entombed Valley: gasless 3 rax vs gate nex. YoDa vs JYP, Daybreak: Cloak Banshee vs proxy Immortal bust. Keen vs Panic, Ohana: 1 rax FE with EB block, Panic has only one Stalker and reactively decides to 4g. Proleague Bogus vs Argo, Caldeum: CC first vs 1g exe → proxy Immortal bust. Baby/TY vs sOs, Akilon: 1-1-1 Marines/Hellions/Medivac with proxy Factory + Starport, sOs holds and kills him with Stalker counter-pressure. PuMa vs Argo, Entombed Valley: Cloak Banshee → 3-1-1 all-in vs Nexus first → 4gR. [PuMa won. Vade retro Satanas! The last working instance of 1-1-1 I remember in WoL (and from memory, a complete throw from the Protoss.)] Cure vs JYP, NeoBifrost: 3g pressure into expand vs rax fact exe. Reality vs Zest, Antiga: gas first Reactor 4 Hellions drop expand vs 1g exe → 3g → 3gR; Reality kills only 6 Probes. [Standard opening from Protoss, but notice how little damage he took from the apparently dreaded 4 Hellions drop...] Shall I go on? I still have 33 pages of pro games reports to peruse. Or can you swallow your pride, concede that you were wrong and stop wasting our time with your ridiculous claim that Protoss at the end of WoL was in the same situation as Terran in HotS as of now? Protoss had agressive options, Protoss had risky options, Protoss had a working universal build that did fine even in the worst case scenario (i. e. near total blindness until the first Observer reaches Terran's main) because it could defend everything even if you only saw a wall at first and it could catch up without any problem even against stuff like triple OC + dual EB openings. Does Terran need more flexibility? Yes it's pretty obvious. Terran does not need more flexibility. Protoss needs less of it, with adjusted risk/rewards ratios for what they do. | ||
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Ana_
Finland453 Posts
On December 21 2013 04:58 TurboMaN wrote: I have the perfect idea for SC2: Raise the skill level again (like in Broodwar): - No Auto-Mine - Only 12 Units per control group - Only 1 Building can be selected at a time - No command queues for buildings - Remove auto surround, so unmicroed units in the back can't fire THIS would make the game harder and allins would be more difficult. For me Broodwar is still the better game, because it's more fair to the better player. How often do you see Pros lose vs amateurs in BW? Yes 1 out of 100. No...just no...How you are going to attract more players, if you make game mechanically THAT much harder? Is the game fun anymore after making those restrictions?! | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On December 21 2013 04:58 TurboMaN wrote: I have the perfect idea for SC2: Raise the skill level again (like in Broodwar): - No Auto-Mine - Only 12 Units per control group - Only 1 Building can be selected at a time - No command queues for buildings - Remove auto surround, so unmicroed units in the back can't fire THIS would make the game harder and allins would be more difficult. For me Broodwar is still the better game, because it's more fair to the better player. How often do you see Pros lose vs amateurs in BW? Yes 1 out of 100. Go play to your archaic game then. | ||
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iliketurtles
Germany6 Posts
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
On December 21 2013 04:58 TurboMaN wrote: I have the perfect idea for SC2: Raise the skill level again (like in Broodwar): - No Auto-Mine - Only 12 Units per control group - Only 1 Building can be selected at a time - No command queues for buildings - Remove auto surround, so unmicroed units in the back can't fire THIS would make the game harder and allins would be more difficult. For me Broodwar is still the better game, because it's more fair to the better player. How often do you see Pros lose vs amateurs in BW? Yes 1 out of 100. Pretty sure all of this would actually make All-Ins stronger and macro play harder. | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
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vNmMasterT
68 Posts
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