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WombaT
Northern Ireland26362 Posts
On December 19 2013 21:44 Ghanburighan wrote: You mean the period we are in now? I'm afraid those changes were the oracle buff, siege tank change, weapon combination, roach b-speed and WM nerf. By big changes I mean proper sweeping ones, we'll have to see | ||
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shockaslim
United States1105 Posts
On December 19 2013 14:20 weikor wrote: How hard is it to see that the matchup PvT is pretty balanced, yet much harder for terran to play in the early stages of the game (the place where 80% of games seem to be decided by the amount of whining) Blink all ins are frustrating to play against. Everyone knows that. The point is that, if you manage to hold it you ARE ahead. *but a protoss can transition out of it* yes he can. From a one base version into a natural while you have yours up already. You already have an ebay and probably medivac tech too. *they can just do a 2 base version and do similar damage* The 2 base version comes 1 minute later (Stim ready), this is seriously not the thing you should be complaining about. This is more a 2 base timing than anything else. You can have siege tanks out to deal with it pretty easily - which on most maps can defend your main blink in points and your natural. If you hold it doesn't exactly mean that you are ahead. They can always take a nexus and transition into Templar and have Photon overcharge which means you won't be able to do any counter damage. They will be behind in upgrades.....but when you have Psionic Storm upgrades don't mean anything. | ||
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Sabu113
United States11075 Posts
On December 20 2013 07:28 shockaslim wrote: If you hold it doesn't exactly mean that you are ahead. They can always take a nexus and transition into Templar and have Photon overcharge which means you won't be able to do any counter damage. They will be behind in upgrades.....but when you have Psionic Storm upgrades don't mean anything. Are you seriously making a balance complaint about psi storm? | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
Psionic storm research doesnt care about 3/3 marines vs 0/0 zealots because psy storm equalizes that disadvantage. EDIT Hyperbole obviously | ||
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Fjodorov
5007 Posts
On December 20 2013 07:38 Sabu113 wrote: Are you seriously making a balance complaint about psi storm? Storm can turn around games in 4 blizzard seconds. Its a great comeback tool, no doubt. | ||
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shockaslim
United States1105 Posts
On December 20 2013 07:38 Sabu113 wrote: Are you seriously making a balance complaint about psi storm? Not a balance complaint about Storm, I am just saying in the general flow of the game Protoss can tech to HT after an all-in goes awry and hold off very well with Psi Storm. I don't think the spell itself is broken, just the situation that terran is in is still kind of garbage. | ||
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TurboMaN
Germany925 Posts
This can't be called balance when you force a race to play the same style over and over again. | ||
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Wingblade
United States1806 Posts
On December 20 2013 10:02 TurboMaN wrote: Terran is way too predictable in TvP. There is nothing else possible than MMM. Protoss on the other side can choose from like 4 Allin/early aggression builds and 2 Macro styles. This can't be called balance when you force a race to play the same style over and over again. It seemed ok in Wings when Protoss was essentially forced into the same thing. | ||
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Tobblish
Sweden6404 Posts
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GetHighAndWatchSC2
6 Posts
What about making the nexus cannon researched from the cyber core? Same cost and time as warp gate research. That way the Protoss has to make a choice in the early game between defense (nexus cannon first) or offense (warp gate first) Just a thought. | ||
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GetHighAndWatchSC2
6 Posts
On December 20 2013 10:02 TurboMaN wrote: Terran is way too predictable in TvP. There is nothing else possible than MMM. Protoss on the other side can choose from like 4 Allin/early aggression builds and 2 Macro styles. This can't be called balance when you force a race to play the same style over and over again. Mech games are my favorite games to watch, but it seems like Terran players (at least in tourneys) go Bio 90% of the time. I would definitely like to see balance changes that cause mech to be more commonly used. | ||
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Survivor61316
United States470 Posts
On December 19 2013 14:20 weikor wrote: How hard is it to see that the matchup PvT is pretty balanced, yet much harder for terran to play in the early stages of the game (the place where 80% of games seem to be decided by the amount of whining) Blink all ins are frustrating to play against. Everyone knows that. The point is that, if you manage to hold it you ARE ahead. *but a protoss can transition out of it* yes he can. From a one base version into a natural while you have yours up already. You already have an ebay and probably medivac tech too. *they can just do a 2 base version and do similar damage* The 2 base version comes 1 minute later (Stim ready), this is seriously not the thing you should be complaining about. This is more a 2 base timing than anything else. You can have siege tanks out to deal with it pretty easily - which on most maps can defend your main blink in points and your natural. The two base version still has the ability to win the game outright, and even if it doesn't the toss is going to be ahead, as bunkers and tanks (if they are made) are not free. That 300-400 minerals you have to throw into bunkers delays production for a long time, and thats assuming you were able to correctly deduce the fact that it was 2-base blink coming, and not dts, or some other of the million builds toss can do. And lets say miraculously you are able to make it to the mid game on an even footing economically..you have a very small window of time to do significant damage because the later the game goes, the more favored the toss army becomes in head to head engagements. Also, the later the game goes, the easier it will be for toss to shut down drops, because they will build up a ridiculous gateway count, and zealots are incredibly fucking strong; thus you will be forced to take those unfavorable heads up engagements with the toss because that will be the only possible avenue to victory. And then you just pray that he doesnt make a warp prism, because if you're maxed (or close) a warp in of zealots in the main is going to trash your production. The fact that toss is so strong late game vs terran is the reason why they should not have builds such as the two base blink, or the macro stargate build..terran has to gain an advantage in the early/mid game or their chances of victory drop off considerably. Even on Meta recently (episode 20), Naniwa said that a colossus/storm army is virtually unbeatable in PvT. So the fact that toss can safely get to it is a major problem for terrans. That is exactly how the Infestor/BL army came to dominate in WOL; it was always a strong comp, but a safer early game allowed zergs to more easily get to it, which in turn led to the imbalance. | ||
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Survivor61316
United States470 Posts
On December 20 2013 10:41 Wingblade wrote: It seemed ok in Wings when Protoss was essentially forced into the same thing. Because at least both races were forced into one thing then, which evened things out. Now Terran is stuck doing to same shit, and toss has the luxury of changing things up, while being hard as hell to scout at the same time. | ||
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Survivor61316
United States470 Posts
On December 20 2013 11:37 GetHighAndWatchSC2 wrote: Mech games are my favorite games to watch, but it seems like Terran players (at least in tourneys) go Bio 90% of the time. I would definitely like to see balance changes that cause mech to be more commonly used. It would have to be something that wouldnt affect TvZ, and hopefully not TvT (mech is already strong enough in that MU). I think something like a researchable upgrade on tanks that increased damage vs shields would be cool. Maybe like +30 or so, +/- 10. | ||
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seeme
Canada1 Post
On December 20 2013 16:49 Survivor61316 wrote: It would have to be something that wouldnt affect TvZ, and hopefully not TvT (mech is already strong enough in that MU). I think something like a researchable upgrade on tanks that increased damage vs shields would be cool. Maybe like +30 or so, +/- 10. While the idea of + shields would be cool, it would make it a staple in any PvT, especially if they field any Archons against your bio (assuming of course it is a good enough upgrade to make mech viable) The introduction of some form of spell casting mech unit would raise the micro skill ceiling, while opening a very wide door for balance. With spell casters you can do nearly anything that you feel would bring the matchup where you want. IE Static Interference - Units in the area take 10dmg every .5s -This would help with the immortals that all but shut down mech as it would eat threw their shields in a timely manner Sound Intereference - Units hit by the blast have activated abilities put on a 5s cd -Think EMP but instead of dropping the energy of the units to 0, it puts there spells on cd. Vipers darting in to drop Blinding cloud? Hit them with the silence (if you can) Other abilities could be added and the numbers could be played with. While I understand a unit will never get added, especially this late to the party, it would give the devs a tool to introduce whatever balance adjustments they feel they need while not worrying about skewing the game too hard. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26362 Posts
On December 20 2013 11:30 GetHighAndWatchSC2 wrote: Ill start by saying I'm a professional tournament watcher and fan, not a ladder player. What about making the nexus cannon researched from the cyber core? Same cost and time as warp gate research. That way the Protoss has to make a choice in the early game between defense (nexus cannon first) or offense (warp gate first) Just a thought. Any sort of trade off is something I'd love to see | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 20 2013 20:39 seeme wrote: While the idea of + shields would be cool, it would make it a staple in any PvT, especially if they field any Archons against your bio (assuming of course it is a good enough upgrade to make mech viable) The introduction of some form of spell casting mech unit would raise the micro skill ceiling, while opening a very wide door for balance. With spell casters you can do nearly anything that you feel would bring the matchup where you want. IE Static Interference - Units in the area take 10dmg every .5s -This would help with the immortals that all but shut down mech as it would eat threw their shields in a timely manner Sound Intereference - Units hit by the blast have activated abilities put on a 5s cd -Think EMP but instead of dropping the energy of the units to 0, it puts there spells on cd. Vipers darting in to drop Blinding cloud? Hit them with the silence (if you can) Other abilities could be added and the numbers could be played with. While I understand a unit will never get added, especially this late to the party, it would give the devs a tool to introduce whatever balance adjustments they feel they need while not worrying about skewing the game too hard. Raven is a spellcaster and lategame it's quite viable to have ghosts with your Mech. Those two units are your actual late/endgame powerhouses already when you play Mech, so I really disagree that Mech needs another caster since it already uses two in the lategame. What it needs is combat units that are more well-rounded against Protoss units. The problem basically comes down to certain Protoss units being very well rounded against a lot of Mech units, while each of the Mech units is only good vs a few Protoss units. E.g. Immortal Good: Hellbat, Hellion, Siege Tank, Thor OK: Mines, Ravens Bad: Banshee, Battlecruiser, Ghost --> Good/OK against nearly all of Terrans Mech units. Archon Good: Hellbat, Hellion, Siege Tank, Raven, Banshee OK: Mines, Battlecruisers Bad: Thor, Ghost --> Good/OK against nearly all of Terrans Mech units. Siege Tank Good: Stalker, Colossus, Sentry OK: Phoenix, HT, Oracle Bad: Zealot, Immortal, Archon, Voidray, Tempest, Carrier --> Bad/OK against half of Protoss' options. Thor Good: HT, Archon, Oracle, Phoenix, Sentry OK: Voidray, Tempest, Stalker, Colossus Bad: Zealot, Immortal, Carrier --> Bad/OK against half of Protoss' options. Protoss can be much more "off" with their composition against Mech than Mech can be against Protoss. Protoss can cover most of Mechs options with supported Archons or Immortals (or Voidrays or Carriers) while a Mech-Terran has to adjust its composition perfectly to trade evenly for each option the Protoss has. Mech needs stronger core units against Protoss, so that the Mech midgame armies cannot be completely wrecked when you built 2Thors instead of 4tanks, while the Protoss is not in trouble if he builds 4Archons instead of 4Immortals or vis-verca. It's not even that punishing to open Colossi or Stalkerheavy, for as long as you go into heavy Immortalproduction right afterwards. | ||
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TeeTS
Germany2762 Posts
On December 20 2013 21:12 Big J wrote: Raven is a spellcaster and lategame it's quite viable to have ghosts with your Mech. Those two units are your actual late/endgame powerhouses already when you play Mech, so I really disagree that Mech needs another caster since it already uses two in the lategame. What it needs is combat units that are more well-rounded against Protoss units. The problem basically comes down to certain Protoss units being very well rounded against a lot of Mech units, while each of the Mech units is only good vs a few Protoss units. E.g. Immortal Good: Hellbat, Hellion, Siege Tank, Thor OK: Mines, Ravens Bad: Banshee, Battlecruiser, Ghost --> Good/OK against nearly all of Terrans Mech units. Archon Good: Hellbat, Hellion, Siege Tank, Raven, Banshee OK: Mines, Battlecruisers Bad: Thor, Ghost --> Good/OK against nearly all of Terrans Mech units. Siege Tank Good: Stalker, Colossus, Sentry OK: Phoenix, HT, Oracle Bad: Zealot, Immortal, Archon, Voidray, Tempest, Carrier --> Bad/OK against half of Protoss' options. Thor Good: HT, Archon, Oracle, Phoenix, Sentry OK: Voidray, Tempest, Stalker, Colossus Bad: Zealot, Immortal, Carrier --> Bad/OK against half of Protoss' options. Protoss can be much more "off" with their composition against Mech than Mech can be against Protoss. Protoss can cover most of Mechs options with supported Archons or Immortals (or Voidrays or Carriers) while a Mech-Terran has to adjust its composition perfectly to trade evenly for each option the Protoss has. Mech needs stronger core units against Protoss, so that the Mech midgame armies cannot be completely wrecked when you built 2Thors instead of 4tanks, while the Protoss is not in trouble if he builds 4Archons instead of 4Immortals or vis-verca. It's not even that punishing to open Colossi or Stalkerheavy, for as long as you go into heavy Immortalproduction right afterwards. Thors are OK vs Tempest? This sounds like a good joke haha! In fact there is no real counter to Tempest in the Terran arsenal, since vikings suck, if they have to attack into the enemy forces. | ||
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AxionSteel
United States7754 Posts
On December 20 2013 21:33 TeeTS wrote: Thors are OK vs Tempest? This sounds like a good joke haha! In fact there is no real counter to Tempest in the Terran arsenal, since vikings suck, if they have to attack into the enemy forces. Raven/viking goes ok. (yes i am aware of feedback). | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 20 2013 21:33 TeeTS wrote: Thors are OK vs Tempest? This sounds like a good joke haha! In fact there is no real counter to Tempest in the Terran arsenal, since vikings suck, if they have to attack into the enemy forces. If you get in range with your Thors, they actually win. If you are on the attack but don't get in range with Thors, you still wreck everything else on the ground (like his bases) if he is relying heavily on Tempests and you are relying heavily on Thors before the 9dps of the Tempest will have killed the 400HP Thors. It is OK to have some Thors when your opponent has some Tempest, they will still be worth a lot for you. And what AxionSteel said, mass Tempests alone isn't the end of the world for Mech. Even HTs can be dealt with by adding ghosts. Not so sure about a Protoss who has Tempests only to force the Terran into those units and actually relies on Carriers. | ||
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