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On July 25 2013 04:07 LSN wrote:
lol you guys can not even admit a matchup is wrong in a general gameplay perspective. This is what also makes your points on balance pointless cause its just terran bias. Everyone who knows broodwar and its different ways to make the opponent adapt to your play for every race and compares it to SC2 hots can see that this is heavily unbalanced as terran basically has to build only 4 different units every game and nothing else no matter what strategy the zerg plays. Not even a spellcaster in there rofl. Just some basic tier 1 units make it in every game.
I like how you keep saying the same thing over and over, yet Zerg has won the most GSLs the last two years and the win rates do not reflect any imbalance in favor of terran.
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LOL I will agree ravens are very powerful but by the time someone does a hard switch to ravens which means they have to stay back if their forces are waning at the front there is your time to tech switch to ultras and Ravens vs ultras i mean you can't get enough energy to keep them back LOL
I will say TVP I have been experimenting with Ravens OMG its changed my engage to a very high win rate like disgusting 1 Emp + 2 bombs on Colo is death dealing to a toss army.....
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On July 25 2013 04:07 LSN wrote:
lol you guys can not even admit a matchup is wrong in a general gameplay perspective. This is what also makes your points on balance pointless cause its just terran bias. Everyone who knows broodwar and its different ways to make the opponent adapt to your play for every race and compares it to SC2 hots can see that this is heavily unbalanced as terran basically has to build only 4 different units every game and nothing else no matter what strategy the zerg plays. Not even a spellcaster in there rofl. Just some basic tier 1 units make it in every game.
With Vipers/swarmhosts Blizzard butchered mech, and with the new muta they made siege tanks quite underwhelming too. Wtf do you want us to make? Any strategy besides 3 base constant mmmm aggression let's Zerg sit on 4+ base with huge bank, creep over the entire maps, and do whatever he wants.
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On July 25 2013 04:11 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 04:07 LSN wrote:
lol you guys can not even admit a matchup is wrong in a general gameplay perspective. This is what also makes your points on balance pointless cause its just terran bias. Everyone who knows broodwar and its different ways to make the opponent adapt to your play for every race and compares it to SC2 hots can see that this is heavily unbalanced as terran basically has to build only 4 different units every game and nothing else no matter what strategy the zerg plays. Not even a spellcaster in there rofl. Just some basic tier 1 units make it in every game. I like how you keep saying the same thing over and over, yet Zerg has won the most GSLs the last two years and the win rates do not reflect any imbalance in favor of terran.
exactly... this game is so young. if he really did play BW, he can be patient because ZvT for a while in pro BW was like 20% lolol
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The using corruptors suggestion is legit. Watch Yugioh-Gumiho game in U&D. Yugioh went for a corruptor army and kill all of Gumiho medivacs. Corruptors are very beefy and marines can't kill them quick enough.
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On July 25 2013 04:19 painkilla wrote:
The using corruptors suggestion is legit. Watch Yugioh-Gumiho game in U&D. Yugioh went for a corruptor army and kill all of Gumiho medivacs. Corruptors are very beefy and marines can't kill them quick enough.
They are likley good against a player that is doing a lot of drops and multitasking, since they can just kill the medivac and ignore the marines. But that only works because the terran's apm is taxed and he isn't playing 100% attention to the drop. In a full scale fight, the Corruptors will pop like zits. But then again, the medivacs aren't the focus in a full fight, either.
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On July 25 2013 04:03 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 03:59 LSN wrote:
The funny thing is that you terran guys don't even admit that there is something wrong with the matchup and terran design that terran dont has to adapt at all and basically builds just (converted to zerg units) zergling, roach, hydra constantly attacks and wins games on prolevel with it combined with dropping some of these units with dropships that heal the units and you build them anyway for the reason of healing.
Even a blind guy can see that there is something wrong and heavily in favour for terran. But nvm. We need to wait probably another 4-6 months until blizzard recognizes it too and does anything about it (another 6 months) like in the beginning of WOL. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GOMTV_Global_StarCraft_II_League#TournamentsZ - 9 gsl wins, 4 back to back, the most recent 4 T - 7 gsl wins hasn't won gsl since 2012 when MVP beat parting P - 3 gsl wins keep crying buddy, your race has had a tremendous amount of success and has basically dominated since zerg was buffed in may 2012, your race is not going to win this season, it's not the end of the world.
I love it when Terran players pull out GSL wins and ignore all other data to try to prove T isnt OP.
Guess what? First GSL was won by Zerg when it was agreed that Zerg was severly underpowered. Does that GSL victory prove it was balanced? No, it just means one Zerg player was better/luckier than all other players.
ZvT's balance heavily favors T at the moment, and slightly T favored for TvP. He's not crying, you're just bashing him cuz you dont want to lose your unfair advantage
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On July 25 2013 04:22 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 04:03 c0sm0naut wrote:On July 25 2013 03:59 LSN wrote:
The funny thing is that you terran guys don't even admit that there is something wrong with the matchup and terran design that terran dont has to adapt at all and basically builds just (converted to zerg units) zergling, roach, hydra constantly attacks and wins games on prolevel with it combined with dropping some of these units with dropships that heal the units and you build them anyway for the reason of healing.
Even a blind guy can see that there is something wrong and heavily in favour for terran. But nvm. We need to wait probably another 4-6 months until blizzard recognizes it too and does anything about it (another 6 months) like in the beginning of WOL. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GOMTV_Global_StarCraft_II_League#TournamentsZ - 9 gsl wins, 4 back to back, the most recent 4 T - 7 gsl wins hasn't won gsl since 2012 when MVP beat parting P - 3 gsl wins keep crying buddy, your race has had a tremendous amount of success and has basically dominated since zerg was buffed in may 2012, your race is not going to win this season, it's not the end of the world. I love it when Terran players pull out GSL wins and ignore all other data to try to prove T isnt OP. Guess what? First GSL was won by Zerg when it was agreed that Zerg was severly underpowered. Does that GSL victory prove it was balanced? No, it just means one Zerg player was better/luckier than all other players. ZvT's balance heavily favors T at the moment, and slightly T favored for TvP. He's not crying, you're just bashing him cuz you dont want to lose your unfair advantage
No evidence backs up your claim. Not the recent win records in any major event, or the win/lose data from the last few months. Most of the data that has been comming out shows a lot of 50/50 splits and some big differences in map score, which isn't shocking.
There is nothing that supports the claim that terran is OP.
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On July 25 2013 03:59 LSN wrote:
The funny thing is that you terran guys don't even admit that there is something wrong with the matchup and terran design that terran dont has to adapt at all and basically builds just (converted to zerg units) zergling, roach, hydra constantly attacks and wins games on prolevel with it combined with dropping some of these units with dropships that heal the units and you build them anyway for the reason of healing.
Even a blind guy can see that there is something wrong and heavily in favour for terran. But nvm. We need to wait probably another 4-6 months until blizzard recognizes it too and does anything about it (another 6 months) like in the beginning of WOL.
What a brilliant analysis of TvZ. If you are so smart then please explain which other unit apart from bio and Medivacs a Terran has that are actually useful.
Mobility is the key to winning in SC2 and since the Siege Tank is considered "boring" by David Kim they are leaving it at its nerfed state.
The Thor hasnt really got any good anti-air attack since any decent Zerg player knows how to magic-box his Mutalisks and the other units arent light anyways; the "other attack mode" deals less or roughly equal damage compared to a BW Goliath while costing a lot more. In any case they are far too slow and too expensive to get more than 2-3 of them.
Terran air units are designed extremely badly, because the Banshee cant defend itself against another air unit and the Viking cant shoot ground units. The Battlecruiser has some toughness, but it also has a huge price tag attached. In any case all of these are quickly "made fun of" by Infestors, Vipers and Hydralisks.
The bottom line is that you are quite ignorant and completely forget that Terrans cant switch tech as easily as Zerg can. Terrans actually need to build a whole lot of buildings to make stuff. There is just as much in favor of Terrans here as there is in favor of Zerg and the piece that is wrong with it is not limited to a race but rather the general game mechanics of having such radically different production and economic boosts for the races coupled with the super tight movement and unlimited unit selection.
On July 25 2013 04:07 LSN wrote:
lol you guys can not even admit a matchup is wrong in a general gameplay perspective. This is what also makes your points on balance pointless cause its just terran bias. Everyone who knows broodwar and its different ways to make the opponent adapt to your play for every race and compares it to SC2 hots can see that this is heavily unbalanced as terran basically has to build only 4 different units every game and nothing else no matter what strategy the zerg plays. Not even a spellcaster in there rofl. Just some basic tier 1 units make it in every game.
Even I - who always argues that SC2 would be a better game if it would adopt more BW mechanics - dont think that there is an IMBALANCE in the TvZ matchup. There is simply NO CHOICE for a Terran to switch or build a more mixed unit composition, because bio is the most mobile way of playing the game for a Terran and mobility is crucial in SC2.
What I would say is that the games are "balanced" around the "dont let Zerg get to a great economy" tactic and that has nothing to do with the matchup itself but everything with the general game design of "mass armies with massive reproductive capabilities battling it out". That is a terrible way to "balance" the game, because there should be equally powerful "end game units" (=tier 3) for each race ... but there arent. There simply is no way to reproduce Tanks or Thors in sufficient numbers if you lose them + Show Spoiler +and these expensive mech units are in no way MUCH tougher than a Zerg army, they are at most equally matched if not underpowered for their cost
Dont whine about the matchup but rather complain about the general mechanics.
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On July 25 2013 04:44 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 04:19 painkilla wrote:
The using corruptors suggestion is legit. Watch Yugioh-Gumiho game in U&D. Yugioh went for a corruptor army and kill all of Gumiho medivacs. Corruptors are very beefy and marines can't kill them quick enough. What a terrible example. Gumiho had that game won completely because the corrupters couldn't keep up with the medivacs and all of Yugioh's bases were dying. But Gumiho stretched out his units too much and wasan;t ready for the big frontal assault at the end of the game. If he kept a few more units back and realized corrupters meant a quick BL transition he wins that game easily.
Sounds like a perfect example actually. Gumiho couldnt do the endless mmmm push because of corrupters and then died in spite of his drop harrass because yugiho didnt drop 3k gas on mutas and was able to make a safe broodlord transition - exactly the things zergs wont stop qqing about: "wah cant tech up"
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On July 25 2013 05:11 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 05:03 stratmatt wrote:On July 25 2013 04:44 Emzeeshady wrote:On July 25 2013 04:19 painkilla wrote:
The using corruptors suggestion is legit. Watch Yugioh-Gumiho game in U&D. Yugioh went for a corruptor army and kill all of Gumiho medivacs. Corruptors are very beefy and marines can't kill them quick enough. What a terrible example. Gumiho had that game won completely because the corrupters couldn't keep up with the medivacs and all of Yugioh's bases were dying. But Gumiho stretched out his units too much and wasan;t ready for the big frontal assault at the end of the game. If he kept a few more units back and realized corrupters meant a quick BL transition he wins that game easily. Sounds like a perfect example actually. Gumiho couldnt do the endless mmmm push because of corrupters and then died in spite of his drop harrass because yugiho didnt drop 3k gas on mutas and was able to make a safe broodlord transition - exactly the things zergs wont stop qqing about: "wah cant tech up" Actually he could do endless mmm pushes, if he built a few vikings he would have won. Just inexperience from probably never playing vs that strat ever. The fact that Yugioh has never used this strat since then says a lot.
But building vikings = less medivacs = less harrass / less healing / less chance to escape zerg forces
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On July 25 2013 05:11 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 05:03 stratmatt wrote:On July 25 2013 04:44 Emzeeshady wrote:On July 25 2013 04:19 painkilla wrote:
The using corruptors suggestion is legit. Watch Yugioh-Gumiho game in U&D. Yugioh went for a corruptor army and kill all of Gumiho medivacs. Corruptors are very beefy and marines can't kill them quick enough. What a terrible example. Gumiho had that game won completely because the corrupters couldn't keep up with the medivacs and all of Yugioh's bases were dying. But Gumiho stretched out his units too much and wasan;t ready for the big frontal assault at the end of the game. If he kept a few more units back and realized corrupters meant a quick BL transition he wins that game easily. Sounds like a perfect example actually. Gumiho couldnt do the endless mmmm push because of corrupters and then died in spite of his drop harrass because yugiho didnt drop 3k gas on mutas and was able to make a safe broodlord transition - exactly the things zergs wont stop qqing about: "wah cant tech up" Actually he could do endless mmm pushes, if he built a few vikings he would have won. Just inexperience from probably never playing vs that strat ever. The fact that Yugioh has never used this strat since then says a lot.
You make it sound like vikings are free supply. More vikings = less MMM.
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On July 25 2013 04:07 LSN wrote:
lol you guys can not even admit a matchup is wrong in a general gameplay perspective. This is what also makes your points on balance pointless cause its just terran bias. Everyone who knows broodwar and its different ways to make the opponent adapt to your play for every race and compares it to SC2 hots can see that this is heavily unbalanced as terran basically has to build only 4 different units every game and nothing else no matter what strategy the zerg plays. Not even a spellcaster in there rofl. Just some basic tier 1 units make it in every game.
In terms of general gameplay perspective, the match up is awesome. Once you look past the "terran only has to use 4 units Q.Q" stuff, you see a very dynamic, micro intensive, exciting match up. But you probably won't ever look at it that way.
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On July 25 2013 05:16 painkilla wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 05:11 Emzeeshady wrote:On July 25 2013 05:03 stratmatt wrote:On July 25 2013 04:44 Emzeeshady wrote:On July 25 2013 04:19 painkilla wrote:
The using corruptors suggestion is legit. Watch Yugioh-Gumiho game in U&D. Yugioh went for a corruptor army and kill all of Gumiho medivacs. Corruptors are very beefy and marines can't kill them quick enough. What a terrible example. Gumiho had that game won completely because the corrupters couldn't keep up with the medivacs and all of Yugioh's bases were dying. But Gumiho stretched out his units too much and wasan;t ready for the big frontal assault at the end of the game. If he kept a few more units back and realized corrupters meant a quick BL transition he wins that game easily. Sounds like a perfect example actually. Gumiho couldnt do the endless mmmm push because of corrupters and then died in spite of his drop harrass because yugiho didnt drop 3k gas on mutas and was able to make a safe broodlord transition - exactly the things zergs wont stop qqing about: "wah cant tech up" Actually he could do endless mmm pushes, if he built a few vikings he would have won. Just inexperience from probably never playing vs that strat ever. The fact that Yugioh has never used this strat since then says a lot. You make it sound like vikings are free supply. More vikings = less MMM.
This sounds like every discussion a protoss has had: "You make it sound like (sentries, zealots, Colossi, stalkers, immortals) are free and cost no suppy"
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On July 25 2013 03:46 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 03:33 Big J wrote:On July 25 2013 03:26 c0sm0naut wrote:On July 25 2013 03:12 Emzeeshady wrote:On July 25 2013 02:15 c0sm0naut wrote:
jesus christ this thread feels like a fucking time portal to 2010 or some shit
zergs, protip
dont spend 3k gas on mutas every game, build 12, dont lose them because given their speed there is no excuse for that, go immediately to ultras, even if it means delaying your 2/2 or 3/3, get them out and its smooth fucking sailing
dont spend 1k gas on a bane bust, just because you have mutas and terran took a third. this isn't wings of liberty anymore, you're not doing anything but putting yourself extremely behind going for these cheap wins I always laugh at random nobodies trying to tell pros how to play. If they think getting a large flock of Mutas and going for all ins is the way to beat Terran then it probably is. And if it isn't they will figure it out eventually and not thanks to some diamond player that thinks he knows what he is doing. i always laugh at zergs who mash square pegs into a circular hole, then whine to blizzard that circular holes are OP if mutas, lings, and banes are countered by mines + bio, why not try something else instead of mindlessly making the same composition. "“Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.” - einstein if you think i'm diamond, you're wrong, i'm masters as every race (1k as random with like 200 pool, i announce race every match and do not cheese) the suggestion earlier in the thread "getting corruptors" is smart as fuck, but none of the zergs crying in this thread are listening. it's been two weeks since hellbats were nerfed, zerg for the first time since 2012 isn't going to win a GSL. the amount of entitlement i read in these and other threads is absolutely ridiculous the reason i know that "trying new things" works is because during WOL i mained T and had a like 30% win rate against garbage zergs, simply because the matchup was broken beyond belief. I didn't just post and cry about it, i practiced and tried new stuff constantly. It worked sometimes, but it required good decisions and scouting. the matchup had a genuine imbalance in it that was solved with the implementation of widow mines and speedboost for medivacs. If you want to play the "we've tried everything card" try something besides one strategy, and don't cry about losing to 3/3 bio when you delay your 3/3 only to crank out more 100/100 harass units that are ultimately redundant past 12-15 of them anyways. this thread always delivers. what advantage do corruptors have over mutas? they are maybe slightly vetter at killig mesivacs during combats. anything else im missing? for a thousand disadvantages... http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Corruptorhttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Mutalisk_(Heart_of_the_Swarm)not wanting to get into another retarded argument here, so i'll let you figure it out. more HP, more armor, faster than a medivac, just like the mutalisk (not when it's boosting obviously, just like the mutalisk), can be morphed into broodlord, can corrupt ground units after medivacs die. etc. i'm not trying to make a holy grail argument for the corruptor, all i'm saying is you cannot bitch about not being able to use a lair tech composition all game vs a terran who techs to T3 (for terran, more accurately it's T3/3). I constantly think to myself when i narrowly beat a Zerg who made 30+ mutas in a game, "what if he just made 15, never lost them and instead put that 1500 gas into roaches, or banelings, or hive tech earlier, or anything else really?" here, lets do an experiment 1500 extra gas to play with -100 for burrow -1400 for banelings grats, you now have 15 mutas and 48 burrowed banelings on the map ready to fuck up terran's plans and force his scans, do you really think the utility of 15 extra mutalisks is better than having 24 "kill 30 marines at once" traps on the map? put them everywhere, put them on auto unburrow if you want. honestly man, anything is better than losing 15 mutas killing scvs which do not even matter anyways (mules, 3scvs production at a time), remaking them and then trying to hold with magical baneling connections every game vs T
mutas will catch medivacs with boost when boost is over, corruptors will never catch them.
i can't believe you really think corruptors do anything zvt.......
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EPT
