|
On July 25 2013 08:02 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 07:59 Rhaegal wrote:On July 25 2013 07:53 sibs wrote:On July 25 2013 07:48 ImperialFist wrote:On July 25 2013 07:41 sibs wrote:On July 25 2013 07:32 Terrasmith wrote:On July 25 2013 07:23 willstertben wrote:On July 25 2013 07:08 crazyweasel wrote:
we all know thought to acheive such OPness innovation is a baller and on top of his game, sick multi-tasking, micro etc.
we see the result in foreign tournys : no terran or protoss are able to clutch against KR zergs. yeah, that's why life (yeah, fucking life) lost against sjow. Life has lost to a lot of people recently; he's not the best example of Korean Zerg at the moment. Soulkey lost game 1 because he lost a lot of lings and banes moving up that ramp. If that didn't happen, he likely would have won. Hm, honestly, Life is actually doing pretty well compared to the other Zergs at the very top (Leenock,Roro,DRG), the only Zerg doing better is Soulkey, and maybe Hyun, anyhow we're probably going to be down to 5-7 Zergs next season if winrates at the very top remain how they are, I'm making this prediction based on the current Z winrate, if this prediction actually happens, get ready for Z buffs or T nerfs. how are the winrates looking? The winrates look super solid and balanced overall, but at the very top it seems super terran favored in TvZ wcs kr/proleague/gstl, I know terrans are going to deny this to the end of days, small sample size and all that, but we'll see if this trend continues. First GSL in the past 5 that Zerg doesn't win and Zerg players flip shit. They are performing well in tournaments and online cups. Oh look, the GSL argument again. And Sibs, you got it right. A Terran denied it right after your post lol. Read below: Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 04:22 GhostOwl wrote:On July 25 2013 04:03 c0sm0naut wrote:On July 25 2013 03:59 LSN wrote:
The funny thing is that you terran guys don't even admit that there is something wrong with the matchup and terran design that terran dont has to adapt at all and basically builds just (converted to zerg units) zergling, roach, hydra constantly attacks and wins games on prolevel with it combined with dropping some of these units with dropships that heal the units and you build them anyway for the reason of healing.
Even a blind guy can see that there is something wrong and heavily in favour for terran. But nvm. We need to wait probably another 4-6 months until blizzard recognizes it too and does anything about it (another 6 months) like in the beginning of WOL. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GOMTV_Global_StarCraft_II_League#TournamentsZ - 9 gsl wins, 4 back to back, the most recent 4 T - 7 gsl wins hasn't won gsl since 2012 when MVP beat parting P - 3 gsl wins keep crying buddy, your race has had a tremendous amount of success and has basically dominated since zerg was buffed in may 2012, your race is not going to win this season, it's not the end of the world. I love it when Terran players pull out GSL wins and ignore all other data to try to prove T isnt OP. Guess what? First GSL was won by Zerg when it was agreed that Zerg was severly underpowered. Does that GSL victory prove it was balanced? No, it just means one Zerg player was better/luckier than all other players. ZvT's balance heavily favors T at the moment, and slightly T favored for TvP. He's not crying, you're just bashing him cuz you dont want to lose your unfair advantage
And you ignore the second part of my post? Zergs doing well in other tournaments and online cups mean nothing? I brought up GSL because I just feel that Zergs are so used to winning every tournament that they aren't used to balanced winrates and so cry imba.
|
On July 25 2013 08:05 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 08:02 GhostOwl wrote:On July 25 2013 07:59 Rhaegal wrote:On July 25 2013 07:53 sibs wrote:On July 25 2013 07:48 ImperialFist wrote:On July 25 2013 07:41 sibs wrote:On July 25 2013 07:32 Terrasmith wrote:On July 25 2013 07:23 willstertben wrote:On July 25 2013 07:08 crazyweasel wrote:
we all know thought to acheive such OPness innovation is a baller and on top of his game, sick multi-tasking, micro etc.
we see the result in foreign tournys : no terran or protoss are able to clutch against KR zergs. yeah, that's why life (yeah, fucking life) lost against sjow. Life has lost to a lot of people recently; he's not the best example of Korean Zerg at the moment. Soulkey lost game 1 because he lost a lot of lings and banes moving up that ramp. If that didn't happen, he likely would have won. Hm, honestly, Life is actually doing pretty well compared to the other Zergs at the very top (Leenock,Roro,DRG), the only Zerg doing better is Soulkey, and maybe Hyun, anyhow we're probably going to be down to 5-7 Zergs next season if winrates at the very top remain how they are, I'm making this prediction based on the current Z winrate, if this prediction actually happens, get ready for Z buffs or T nerfs. how are the winrates looking? The winrates look super solid and balanced overall, but at the very top it seems super terran favored in TvZ wcs kr/proleague/gstl, I know terrans are going to deny this to the end of days, small sample size and all that, but we'll see if this trend continues. First GSL in the past 5 that Zerg doesn't win and Zerg players flip shit. They are performing well in tournaments and online cups. Oh look, the GSL argument again. And Sibs, you got it right. A Terran denied it right after your post lol. Read below: On July 25 2013 04:22 GhostOwl wrote:On July 25 2013 04:03 c0sm0naut wrote:On July 25 2013 03:59 LSN wrote:
The funny thing is that you terran guys don't even admit that there is something wrong with the matchup and terran design that terran dont has to adapt at all and basically builds just (converted to zerg units) zergling, roach, hydra constantly attacks and wins games on prolevel with it combined with dropping some of these units with dropships that heal the units and you build them anyway for the reason of healing.
Even a blind guy can see that there is something wrong and heavily in favour for terran. But nvm. We need to wait probably another 4-6 months until blizzard recognizes it too and does anything about it (another 6 months) like in the beginning of WOL. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GOMTV_Global_StarCraft_II_League#TournamentsZ - 9 gsl wins, 4 back to back, the most recent 4 T - 7 gsl wins hasn't won gsl since 2012 when MVP beat parting P - 3 gsl wins keep crying buddy, your race has had a tremendous amount of success and has basically dominated since zerg was buffed in may 2012, your race is not going to win this season, it's not the end of the world. I love it when Terran players pull out GSL wins and ignore all other data to try to prove T isnt OP. Guess what? First GSL was won by Zerg when it was agreed that Zerg was severly underpowered. Does that GSL victory prove it was balanced? No, it just means one Zerg player was better/luckier than all other players. ZvT's balance heavily favors T at the moment, and slightly T favored for TvP. He's not crying, you're just bashing him cuz you dont want to lose your unfair advantage And you ignore the second part of my post? Zergs doing well in other tournaments and online cups mean nothing? I brought up GSL because I just feel that Zergs are so used to winning every tournament that they aren't used to balanced winrates and so cry imba.
How do you explain the awful winrates in wcskr/proleague/gstl? Just bad luck? Or are zergs just playing really poorly?
If my prediction of <8 zergs on wcskr comes true will you entertain the possibility that something is wrong?
|
On July 25 2013 07:41 sibs wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 07:32 Terrasmith wrote:On July 25 2013 07:23 willstertben wrote:On July 25 2013 07:08 crazyweasel wrote:
we all know thought to acheive such OPness innovation is a baller and on top of his game, sick multi-tasking, micro etc.
we see the result in foreign tournys : no terran or protoss are able to clutch against KR zergs. yeah, that's why life (yeah, fucking life) lost against sjow. Life has lost to a lot of people recently; he's not the best example of Korean Zerg at the moment. Soulkey lost game 1 because he lost a lot of lings and banes moving up that ramp. If that didn't happen, he likely would have won. Hm, honestly, Life is actually doing pretty well compared to the other Zergs at the very top (Leenock,Roro,DRG), the only Zerg doing better is Soulkey, and maybe Hyun, anyhow we're probably going to be down to 5-7 Zergs next season if winrates at the very top remain how they are, I'm making this prediction based on the current Z winrate, if this prediction actually happens, get ready for Z buffs or T nerfs.
Life lost to Sjow because his rally got denied by two Widow Mines for the entire fucking game.
Second, if Zerg consistently starts getting stomped in GSL, then yeah, we'll consider some buffs to them/nerfs to T. But the fact is that Zerg has won the last five GSLs. Just because they don't win one of the next two isn't evidence that their race is underpowered, because after such a long period of dominance, races usually need to reinvent themselves.
How do you explain the awful winrates in wcskr/proleague/gstl? Just bad luck? Or are zergs just playing really poorly?
1) Soulkey won WCS Korea last time. So your complaints about WCS KR are limited entirely to the current season, and are therefore pretty irrelevant.
2) There are two Terrans in the top 10 Proleague vZ winrates. Most of the top 10 is Protoss, actually, but it seems like people are crying about T at the moment. Guess who the Terrans are. Yeah: Innovation and Flash. There aren't any shitty shitbag Terrans annihilating everyone. It's just fucking Innovation and Flash. If you're going to complain about the whopping statistics from one or two rounds, you'd have to admit that, by the same logic, Zerg was really strong before the last round or two (despite no real buffs to speak of). It's almost like the metagame fluctuates, or something.
3) Where are the Terran players winning undeservedly? Are we really going to cry about Innovation, the single best player in the world right now, beating anyone? Really?
|
If you nerf mines, you HAVE to buff tanks. Otherwise we are just left with WOL again. Bio tank play just sucks in its current state
|
On July 25 2013 07:32 Terrasmith wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 07:23 willstertben wrote:On July 25 2013 07:08 crazyweasel wrote:
we all know thought to acheive such OPness innovation is a baller and on top of his game, sick multi-tasking, micro etc.
we see the result in foreign tournys : no terran or protoss are able to clutch against KR zergs. yeah, that's why life (yeah, fucking life) lost against sjow. Life has lost to a lot of people recently; he's not the best example of Korean Zerg at the moment. Soulkey lost game 1 because he lost a lot of lings and banes moving up that ramp. If that didn't happen, he likely would have won.
Jaedong has lost to Theognis, Hyun lost to Dayshi multiple time as other example.
TvZ in OSL premier league, GSTL and Pro league S5 are all over 66%. Maybe these number are not enough to be statistically relevant, maybe it has just been a bad month for zerg in Korea, but can we please stop acting like the only issue was about the SK vs Innovation match, and stop blinding ourselves by omitting the fact that most of win in ZvT over the last month have been through roach/baneling bust? It's like saying WoL was fine because terran/protoss had a 50% winrate with 2 Rax/Immo sentry, it's nonsense.
There is clearly a problem with ZvT right now, not admitting it seems to be pretty crazy to me. However, I'm not directly jumping into the conclusion that the match up is straight up imbalanced, even if it's still a strong possibility, it also might come from Zerg who haven't found the way to play the match up(but i don't think so, where all composition have been tested), or that maps allow for a too easy to defend third base...
|
Jaedong has lost to Theognis
He's lost to foreigners of every race in abundance.
Hyun lost to Dayshi
First, Dayshi is good. Second, Hyuun just finished winning an MLG against a Terran.
|
Hyun lost to polt, he beat jaedong.
|
On July 25 2013 08:22 Shiori wrote:He's lost to foreigners of every race in abundance. First, Dayshi is good. Second, Hyuun just finished winning an MLG against a Terran.
Errr Hyun came second in the most recent mlg to polt.
|
On July 25 2013 08:08 sibs wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 08:05 Rhaegal wrote:On July 25 2013 08:02 GhostOwl wrote:On July 25 2013 07:59 Rhaegal wrote:On July 25 2013 07:53 sibs wrote:On July 25 2013 07:48 ImperialFist wrote:On July 25 2013 07:41 sibs wrote:On July 25 2013 07:32 Terrasmith wrote:On July 25 2013 07:23 willstertben wrote:On July 25 2013 07:08 crazyweasel wrote:
we all know thought to acheive such OPness innovation is a baller and on top of his game, sick multi-tasking, micro etc.
we see the result in foreign tournys : no terran or protoss are able to clutch against KR zergs. yeah, that's why life (yeah, fucking life) lost against sjow. Life has lost to a lot of people recently; he's not the best example of Korean Zerg at the moment. Soulkey lost game 1 because he lost a lot of lings and banes moving up that ramp. If that didn't happen, he likely would have won. Hm, honestly, Life is actually doing pretty well compared to the other Zergs at the very top (Leenock,Roro,DRG), the only Zerg doing better is Soulkey, and maybe Hyun, anyhow we're probably going to be down to 5-7 Zergs next season if winrates at the very top remain how they are, I'm making this prediction based on the current Z winrate, if this prediction actually happens, get ready for Z buffs or T nerfs. how are the winrates looking? The winrates look super solid and balanced overall, but at the very top it seems super terran favored in TvZ wcs kr/proleague/gstl, I know terrans are going to deny this to the end of days, small sample size and all that, but we'll see if this trend continues. First GSL in the past 5 that Zerg doesn't win and Zerg players flip shit. They are performing well in tournaments and online cups. Oh look, the GSL argument again. And Sibs, you got it right. A Terran denied it right after your post lol. Read below: On July 25 2013 04:22 GhostOwl wrote:On July 25 2013 04:03 c0sm0naut wrote:On July 25 2013 03:59 LSN wrote:
The funny thing is that you terran guys don't even admit that there is something wrong with the matchup and terran design that terran dont has to adapt at all and basically builds just (converted to zerg units) zergling, roach, hydra constantly attacks and wins games on prolevel with it combined with dropping some of these units with dropships that heal the units and you build them anyway for the reason of healing.
Even a blind guy can see that there is something wrong and heavily in favour for terran. But nvm. We need to wait probably another 4-6 months until blizzard recognizes it too and does anything about it (another 6 months) like in the beginning of WOL. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GOMTV_Global_StarCraft_II_League#TournamentsZ - 9 gsl wins, 4 back to back, the most recent 4 T - 7 gsl wins hasn't won gsl since 2012 when MVP beat parting P - 3 gsl wins keep crying buddy, your race has had a tremendous amount of success and has basically dominated since zerg was buffed in may 2012, your race is not going to win this season, it's not the end of the world. I love it when Terran players pull out GSL wins and ignore all other data to try to prove T isnt OP. Guess what? First GSL was won by Zerg when it was agreed that Zerg was severly underpowered. Does that GSL victory prove it was balanced? No, it just means one Zerg player was better/luckier than all other players. ZvT's balance heavily favors T at the moment, and slightly T favored for TvP. He's not crying, you're just bashing him cuz you dont want to lose your unfair advantage And you ignore the second part of my post? Zergs doing well in other tournaments and online cups mean nothing? I brought up GSL because I just feel that Zergs are so used to winning every tournament that they aren't used to balanced winrates and so cry imba. How do you explain the awful winrates in wcskr/proleague/gstl? Just bad luck? Or are zergs just playing really poorly? If my prediction of <8 zergs on wcskr comes true will you entertain the possibility that something is wrong?
Out of the what... 15 game sample size? lol
|
On July 25 2013 08:22 Shiori wrote:He's lost to foreigners of every race in abundance. First, Dayshi is good. Second, Hyuun just finished winning an MLG against a Terran.
Nope, Hyun lost the MLG against Polt, you know, a full time student now.
And yes Dayshi is good. As much as all the "patched Zerg" which have been flame for over a year.
Rhaegal : GSTL + PL S5 + OSL is something like 90 game I would think. It might not be relevant statistically, but it's relevant iif you want to look at the best player in the world.
|
Is TvZ Terran favored today in Korea? YES
Is this a temporary thing? POSSIBLY
Do we need balance change now? NO
Can't believe some Terran players are denying the first line, considering numbers taken from multiple tournaments.
Can't believe some Zerg players are answering YES to the last question, considering recent hellbat nerf and the fact that Zerg struggle started only recently.
I guess being moderate is a sin these days.
|
Mines need changed just because it isn't fun to watch luck play such a gigantic role in this game. The state of TvZ is this:
T sets up minefield near Z base. If he accomplishes this, he just darts forward and pokes, then runs back. Maintain until Zerg makes a mistake, then push in for a win. T can still overextend, but as long as he stays near his mines he will always live. And if he is close to the Z base, the Z can not harass. Both Soulkey and Symbol had a game where a lucky widow mine hit changed the tide or won the game.
|
On July 25 2013 08:28 Vanadiel wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 08:22 Shiori wrote:Jaedong has lost to Theognis He's lost to foreigners of every race in abundance. Hyun lost to Dayshi First, Dayshi is good. Second, Hyuun just finished winning an MLG against a Terran. Nope, Hyun lost the MLG against Polt, you know, a full time student now. .
He meant the recent Dreamhack I guess.
|
Not a T/Z here, just a P who watches a lot of sc2.
I honestly think that zergs are figuring out bio/mine more and more. I think the roach baneling all ins were a knee jerk response that zergs used because they didn't know how to play before. Now that build is much rarer, It also forces a lot of creativity out of the zerg players. People are doing all kinds of things like burrowing zerglings for vision, faster overlord speed, more focus on creep spread, roach/hydra/viper, nydus all ins. My only concern is that terran is so predictable, I can always expect CC first into double engineering bay into 3 cc and a doom push mid game.
|
On July 25 2013 08:28 Vanadiel wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 08:22 Shiori wrote:Jaedong has lost to Theognis He's lost to foreigners of every race in abundance. Hyun lost to Dayshi First, Dayshi is good. Second, Hyuun just finished winning an MLG against a Terran. Nope, Hyun lost the MLG against Polt, you know, a full time student now.
Wtf was that ? Are you implying Polt isn't a top tier Terran ?
|
Whoops. I definitely meant DH. Nevertheless, Hyun has been in the finals of two major tournaments between DH and MLG. And Polt is really good, so I'm not sure what kinda drugs you're on...
|
On July 25 2013 09:13 Shiori wrote:
Whoops. I definitely meant DH. Nevertheless, Hyun has been in the finals of two major tournaments between DH and MLG. And Polt is really good, so I'm not sure what kinda drugs you're on...
Hyun won ZvZ in DH final. And he lost MLG to terran - Polt, who is a full-time student at college now, means he doesn't practice that much.
Life lost to sjow, Hyun lost to dayshi. With all due respect, these terrans are mediocre at best, Life and Hyun are definitely in upper league. Therefore, you can conclude there is a possibility of terran being op.
|
On July 25 2013 12:37 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 09:13 Shiori wrote:
Whoops. I definitely meant DH. Nevertheless, Hyun has been in the finals of two major tournaments between DH and MLG. And Polt is really good, so I'm not sure what kinda drugs you're on... Hyun won ZvZ in DH final. And he lost MLG to terran - Polt, who is a full-time student at college now, means he doesn't practice that much. Life lost to sjow, Hyun lost to dayshi. With all due respect, these terrans are mediocre at best, Life and Hyun are definitely in upper league. Therefore, you can conclude there is a possibility of terran being op.
I didnt see the Sjow game, but if Life stuck with his normal style of mass lings, that could be why. His style has been figured out and he has to find a new one.
|
On July 25 2013 12:44 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 12:37 saddaromma wrote:On July 25 2013 09:13 Shiori wrote:
Whoops. I definitely meant DH. Nevertheless, Hyun has been in the finals of two major tournaments between DH and MLG. And Polt is really good, so I'm not sure what kinda drugs you're on... Hyun won ZvZ in DH final. And he lost MLG to terran - Polt, who is a full-time student at college now, means he doesn't practice that much. Life lost to sjow, Hyun lost to dayshi. With all due respect, these terrans are mediocre at best, Life and Hyun are definitely in upper league. Therefore, you can conclude there is a possibility of terran being op. I didnt see the Sjow game, but if Life stuck with his normal style of mass lings, that could be why. His style has been figured out and he has to find a new one.
To what style he should change? Roach/bane all-in seems to be the only strategy working against terran.
Why it is so hard to admit that there is a possibility of terran being op?
|
On July 25 2013 08:28 Orek wrote:
Do we need balance change now? NO
I remember how we had this approach in the end of WoL. Zergs winning everything with brood-infestor the whole fucking year. Now we need to wait until LotV and everything will be fixed.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
