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On July 25 2013 12:48 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 12:44 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 25 2013 12:37 saddaromma wrote:On July 25 2013 09:13 Shiori wrote:
Whoops. I definitely meant DH. Nevertheless, Hyun has been in the finals of two major tournaments between DH and MLG. And Polt is really good, so I'm not sure what kinda drugs you're on... Hyun won ZvZ in DH final. And he lost MLG to terran - Polt, who is a full-time student at college now, means he doesn't practice that much. Life lost to sjow, Hyun lost to dayshi. With all due respect, these terrans are mediocre at best, Life and Hyun are definitely in upper league. Therefore, you can conclude there is a possibility of terran being op. I didnt see the Sjow game, but if Life stuck with his normal style of mass lings, that could be why. His style has been figured out and he has to find a new one. To what style he should change? Roach/bane all-in seems to be the only strategy working against terran. Why it is so hard to admit that there is a possibility of terran being op?
Varied builds, more mutas/banes, fewer lings, 2 base muta builds, roach/bane, or some others.
I am a zerg btw (and think that mines need a change). Using life in his current slump is questionable.
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On July 25 2013 08:02 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 07:59 Rhaegal wrote:On July 25 2013 07:53 sibs wrote:On July 25 2013 07:48 ImperialFist wrote:On July 25 2013 07:41 sibs wrote:On July 25 2013 07:32 Terrasmith wrote:On July 25 2013 07:23 willstertben wrote:On July 25 2013 07:08 crazyweasel wrote:
we all know thought to acheive such OPness innovation is a baller and on top of his game, sick multi-tasking, micro etc.
we see the result in foreign tournys : no terran or protoss are able to clutch against KR zergs. yeah, that's why life (yeah, fucking life) lost against sjow. Life has lost to a lot of people recently; he's not the best example of Korean Zerg at the moment. Soulkey lost game 1 because he lost a lot of lings and banes moving up that ramp. If that didn't happen, he likely would have won. Hm, honestly, Life is actually doing pretty well compared to the other Zergs at the very top (Leenock,Roro,DRG), the only Zerg doing better is Soulkey, and maybe Hyun, anyhow we're probably going to be down to 5-7 Zergs next season if winrates at the very top remain how they are, I'm making this prediction based on the current Z winrate, if this prediction actually happens, get ready for Z buffs or T nerfs. how are the winrates looking? The winrates look super solid and balanced overall, but at the very top it seems super terran favored in TvZ wcs kr/proleague/gstl, I know terrans are going to deny this to the end of days, small sample size and all that, but we'll see if this trend continues. First GSL in the past 5 that Zerg doesn't win and Zerg players flip shit. They are performing well in tournaments and online cups. Oh look, the GSL argument again. And Sibs, you got it right. A Terran denied it right after your post lol. Read below: Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 04:22 GhostOwl wrote:On July 25 2013 04:03 c0sm0naut wrote:On July 25 2013 03:59 LSN wrote:
The funny thing is that you terran guys don't even admit that there is something wrong with the matchup and terran design that terran dont has to adapt at all and basically builds just (converted to zerg units) zergling, roach, hydra constantly attacks and wins games on prolevel with it combined with dropping some of these units with dropships that heal the units and you build them anyway for the reason of healing.
Even a blind guy can see that there is something wrong and heavily in favour for terran. But nvm. We need to wait probably another 4-6 months until blizzard recognizes it too and does anything about it (another 6 months) like in the beginning of WOL. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GOMTV_Global_StarCraft_II_League#TournamentsZ - 9 gsl wins, 4 back to back, the most recent 4 T - 7 gsl wins hasn't won gsl since 2012 when MVP beat parting P - 3 gsl wins keep crying buddy, your race has had a tremendous amount of success and has basically dominated since zerg was buffed in may 2012, your race is not going to win this season, it's not the end of the world. I love it when Terran players pull out GSL wins and ignore all other data to try to prove T isnt OP. Guess what? First GSL was won by Zerg when it was agreed that Zerg was severly underpowered. Does that GSL victory prove it was balanced? No, it just means one Zerg player was better/luckier than all other players. ZvT's balance heavily favors T at the moment, and slightly T favored for TvP. He's not crying, you're just bashing him cuz you dont want to lose your unfair advantage
Um, if anything, Zerg winning first GSL should have indicated that Zerg isn't as underpowered as many claimed. Maybe still a bit underpowered, but the awesome power of basic shit like creep-spread, overlord scouting was just being figured out.
Zerg then got buffed. AND creep-spread and overlord scouting became standard. Then Zerg became strong again. Queens got buffed, because Zergs like to whine at the first sign that they aren't dominant. And then they got what they wanted. An unbreakable Zerg early-game, good mid-game, and unbeatable late-game. GG.
Non-korean Terrans are still not a consistent threat to top Korean Zergs. It irks me to no end that just two losses for Hyun and Life from non-korean Terrans are proof enough that Terran is imba. Zergs don't give a shit if they over-nerf Terran. They should. WoL-style balance will not benefit the SC2 community in the long term.
If Sjow and a top Korean zerg were to play a showmatch and we were to place money where our mouths are - who would you bet on? Same for Dayshi.
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On July 25 2013 13:15 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 12:48 saddaromma wrote:On July 25 2013 12:44 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 25 2013 12:37 saddaromma wrote:On July 25 2013 09:13 Shiori wrote:
Whoops. I definitely meant DH. Nevertheless, Hyun has been in the finals of two major tournaments between DH and MLG. And Polt is really good, so I'm not sure what kinda drugs you're on... Hyun won ZvZ in DH final. And he lost MLG to terran - Polt, who is a full-time student at college now, means he doesn't practice that much. Life lost to sjow, Hyun lost to dayshi. With all due respect, these terrans are mediocre at best, Life and Hyun are definitely in upper league. Therefore, you can conclude there is a possibility of terran being op. I didnt see the Sjow game, but if Life stuck with his normal style of mass lings, that could be why. His style has been figured out and he has to find a new one. To what style he should change? Roach/bane all-in seems to be the only strategy working against terran. Why it is so hard to admit that there is a possibility of terran being op? Varied builds, more mutas/banes, fewer lings, 2 base muta builds, roach/bane, or some others. I am a zerg btw (and think that mines need a change). Using life in his current slump is questionable.
You haven't watched the game apparently. But you already decided life did everything wrong. Talk about bias.
What happened is this, Life played standard ling/bane/muta and was slightly overconfident and didn't punish 3rd from sjow. Whereas sjow attempted to pressure life's expansions. But was mostly unsuccesful, and sjow's micro and multitasking wasn't good enough, but enough for him to survive early-mid game. Nevertheless when sjow was around 2-2 upgrades he started rallying marines towards life, this was point of no return. Life wasn't particularly behind, and both players had fair share of mistakes in the beginning. But since 3-3 marines are so efficient zerg gradually loses everything. You could call it very close, but Sjow's macro was terrible, at one point he was sitting >1000 minerals and >2000 gas, now imagine if a better terran would build more ravens, tanks and widow mines. That wouldn't be even close.
I have no bias whatsoever since I play random 3v3 most of the time. This is just my observation.
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"I didnt see the Sjow game, but if Life stuck with his normal style of mass lings, that could be why. His style has been figured out and he has to find a new one."
You'd think I didn't already say that I haven't seen the games vs sjow or something...
From the sound of things, he did exactly what I thought he did. Heavy ling style, probably too few banes.
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Using a gsl finals as a balance discussion point is funny at best and strange at worst. Players almost never play properly, the chokes are huge, the cheese is frequent, and in the last gsl both were more true then normal.
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On July 25 2013 08:16 Green_25 wrote:
If you nerf mines, you HAVE to buff tanks. Otherwise we are just left with WOL again. Bio tank play just sucks in its current state
David Kim thinks the Siege Tank play is boring ... so go figure what they will do.
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sup anyone whos wathcing kangho vs reality right now 80 scv's killed by zerg players. yet reality was still in the game with marine marauder mine and medivacs after 20 minutes, then he eventually lost, hopefully.(i mean 80 scv kills that should be normal how many times zerg loses due to only 15 drones kills).
here's the balance issue: is bio (tier 1 units) able to deal with any zerg composition, even when zerg adds tier2 (mutas) into the original tier1 (ling + bling) , while any harassement from zerg (investment, necessary to ensure tech transition or expands from zerg) can be neglected(economy wise) by Mules'power + bio's viability against new zerg composition. here we have a situation that even if zerg stabilize into the game(transitions to next tier) he has invested shit, while terran can keep up with low risk investment (stim marine/marauder/mines medvac harras) to establish more bases
my suggestion :
make stim have a cool down, say you have a limit of 6-10 stim per marine/maurauder then a cooldown to reset the stims (wouldNt that be normal, injecting shit that x3 your dps without overdosing?) then the ridiculous drop/stim/pickups harass would at least require a ressource commitment for a terran player who just like lings who runby eventually get killed (are suicidal for distraction/positioning/counterattack purpose).
that way both races require a full commitment (of ressources/larva /unit) to a runby or drop harass in order to gain an advantage over an aspect of the game wether its base establishment or tech transition.
terran IS OP at gosulevel nuffsaid
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On July 25 2013 15:15 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 08:16 Green_25 wrote:
If you nerf mines, you HAVE to buff tanks. Otherwise we are just left with WOL again. Bio tank play just sucks in its current state David Kim thinks the Siege Tank play is boring ... so go figure what they will do.
:\ Seriously, I loved the massive Seige lines in TvT back in WoL. Ghosts nuking tank lines to take positioning away and shit. It was so much fun to see armies spread halfway across the map like that.
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On July 25 2013 03:33 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 03:26 c0sm0naut wrote:On July 25 2013 03:12 Emzeeshady wrote:On July 25 2013 02:15 c0sm0naut wrote:
jesus christ this thread feels like a fucking time portal to 2010 or some shit
zergs, protip
dont spend 3k gas on mutas every game, build 12, dont lose them because given their speed there is no excuse for that, go immediately to ultras, even if it means delaying your 2/2 or 3/3, get them out and its smooth fucking sailing
dont spend 1k gas on a bane bust, just because you have mutas and terran took a third. this isn't wings of liberty anymore, you're not doing anything but putting yourself extremely behind going for these cheap wins I always laugh at random nobodies trying to tell pros how to play. If they think getting a large flock of Mutas and going for all ins is the way to beat Terran then it probably is. And if it isn't they will figure it out eventually and not thanks to some diamond player that thinks he knows what he is doing. i always laugh at zergs who mash square pegs into a circular hole, then whine to blizzard that circular holes are OP if mutas, lings, and banes are countered by mines + bio, why not try something else instead of mindlessly making the same composition. "“Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.” - einstein if you think i'm diamond, you're wrong, i'm masters as every race (1k as random with like 200 pool, i announce race every match and do not cheese) the suggestion earlier in the thread "getting corruptors" is smart as fuck, but none of the zergs crying in this thread are listening. it's been two weeks since hellbats were nerfed, zerg for the first time since 2012 isn't going to win a GSL. the amount of entitlement i read in these and other threads is absolutely ridiculous the reason i know that "trying new things" works is because during WOL i mained T and had a like 30% win rate against garbage zergs, simply because the matchup was broken beyond belief. I didn't just post and cry about it, i practiced and tried new stuff constantly. It worked sometimes, but it required good decisions and scouting. the matchup had a genuine imbalance in it that was solved with the implementation of widow mines and speedboost for medivacs. If you want to play the "we've tried everything card" try something besides one strategy, and don't cry about losing to 3/3 bio when you delay your 3/3 only to crank out more 100/100 harass units that are ultimately redundant past 12-15 of them anyways. this thread always delivers. what advantage do corruptors have over mutas? they are maybe slightly vetter at killig mesivacs during combats. anything else im missing? for a thousand disadvantages...
Their biggest advantage is that they will atutomatically fire all medivacs in range.
With corruption, their damage spikes to 17 per shot. Medivacs, marauders will melt if you spam corruption.
Same as why T build turrets to counter hellbat drops, kill the medivacs and whatever hellbats become sitting ducks.
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LOL, Grubby vs Loner. Yeah, mech works just fine. GG
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On July 25 2013 15:37 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 15:31 larse wrote:
LOL, Grubby vs Loner. Yeah, mech works just fine. GG Didn't watch, what happened?
Grubby outclassed Loner. Simple warp prism harras while attacking third. And to be honest, Loners play, was just horrible. He ran around with his army in 1 control group while grubby just picked him apart. Did not even try to split his forces.
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On July 25 2013 15:37 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 15:31 larse wrote:
LOL, Grubby vs Loner. Yeah, mech works just fine. GG Didn't watch, what happened?
Loner had his entire mech army on one hotkey and every time Grubby harassed him he would crawl his entire army across the map to deal with it. Grubby basically avoided any kind of direct engagement and sent DTs and zealots and warp prisms everywhere until Loner had no infrastructure and no workers.
Mech doesn't work against Protoss and there's no way around it, but Loner still played bad.
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On July 25 2013 15:18 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 15:15 Rabiator wrote:On July 25 2013 08:16 Green_25 wrote:
If you nerf mines, you HAVE to buff tanks. Otherwise we are just left with WOL again. Bio tank play just sucks in its current state David Kim thinks the Siege Tank play is boring ... so go figure what they will do. :\ Seriously, I loved the massive Seige lines in TvT back in WoL. Ghosts nuking tank lines to take positioning away and shit. It was so much fun to see armies spread halfway across the map like that.
It was ... the "chess mentality" of "how to break this strong defense?" is probably too hard to understand for todays kids and devs ... and I always thought that was part of what a STRATEGY game was about.
The sad part about it is that Blizzard is not interested in allowing for multiple and different styles of play to exist side-by-side in their game; they push everything towards "full speed and action" games because they are a "monotheistic" kind of developer where only one truth is allowed. Thus the Siege Tank wont be made viable as a core unit anymore and its only reason for continued existence are Roaches and Stalkers.
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On July 25 2013 15:52 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 15:18 plogamer wrote:On July 25 2013 15:15 Rabiator wrote:On July 25 2013 08:16 Green_25 wrote:
If you nerf mines, you HAVE to buff tanks. Otherwise we are just left with WOL again. Bio tank play just sucks in its current state David Kim thinks the Siege Tank play is boring ... so go figure what they will do. :\ Seriously, I loved the massive Seige lines in TvT back in WoL. Ghosts nuking tank lines to take positioning away and shit. It was so much fun to see armies spread halfway across the map like that. It was ... the "chess mentality" of "how to break this strong defense?" is probably too hard to understand for todays kids and devs ... and I always thought that was part of what a STRATEGY game was about. The sad part about it is that Blizzard is not interested in allowing for multiple and different styles of play to exist side-by-side in their game; they push everything towards "full speed and action" games because they are a "monotheistic" kind of developer where only one truth is allowed. Thus the Siege Tank wont be made viable as a core unit anymore and its only reason for continued existence are Roaches and Stalkers.
This is actually one of the reasons I don't like the new HotS TvZ nearly as much as I did the early 2012 version of the matchup before the queen patch murdered it. Right now it's all about going as fast as you can and running around with your bio/mine. I liked it better when Terrans were all about setting up positions with tanks and actually laying siege to bases with a slow and methodical push across the map.
It's pretty sad when seeing Terran's most fun and iconic unit outside of TvT is a rare moment.
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On July 25 2013 07:47 LSN wrote:
this will get worse once terrans learn to perfectly use their new potential. As zergs lost potential there is nothing to learn for zergs.
Live vs. flash is a perfect example how tournament wins happen.
While life played the games of his life and did about 0 mistakes in the games that he won, he lost a few games to one single happening instantly after a few minutes vs flash who played below his average and below terran total potential. This made easy terran wins (one game flash won due to a single widow mine shot) and hard elaborated zerg wins. Still life only closely won 4:3 and 1 or 2 of these games where all-ins that flash could have easily hold if he knew how to scout and adapt the slightest bit to what the zerg is doing.
This is what terrans base their opinion on. they dont look how games are won, what efforts have been made and with what easy certain games are lost for zergs.
Dude thanks for describing the awesomeness of Terran.
The burst damage power of Terran can turn around a game at ANY POINT past 10 min.
Original BW Terran combat units that had no form of burst damage, either from AoE or massive burst (stim/Yamato), is literally only TWO units... Goliath And the wraith.
You can play perfect all game long, just need to screw up once against T and you can kiss your 10,000 gas has army goodbye. You mad, bro?
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EPT
