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On July 25 2013 15:26 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 03:33 Big J wrote:On July 25 2013 03:26 c0sm0naut wrote:On July 25 2013 03:12 Emzeeshady wrote:On July 25 2013 02:15 c0sm0naut wrote:
jesus christ this thread feels like a fucking time portal to 2010 or some shit
zergs, protip
dont spend 3k gas on mutas every game, build 12, dont lose them because given their speed there is no excuse for that, go immediately to ultras, even if it means delaying your 2/2 or 3/3, get them out and its smooth fucking sailing
dont spend 1k gas on a bane bust, just because you have mutas and terran took a third. this isn't wings of liberty anymore, you're not doing anything but putting yourself extremely behind going for these cheap wins I always laugh at random nobodies trying to tell pros how to play. If they think getting a large flock of Mutas and going for all ins is the way to beat Terran then it probably is. And if it isn't they will figure it out eventually and not thanks to some diamond player that thinks he knows what he is doing. i always laugh at zergs who mash square pegs into a circular hole, then whine to blizzard that circular holes are OP if mutas, lings, and banes are countered by mines + bio, why not try something else instead of mindlessly making the same composition. "“Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.” - einstein if you think i'm diamond, you're wrong, i'm masters as every race (1k as random with like 200 pool, i announce race every match and do not cheese) the suggestion earlier in the thread "getting corruptors" is smart as fuck, but none of the zergs crying in this thread are listening. it's been two weeks since hellbats were nerfed, zerg for the first time since 2012 isn't going to win a GSL. the amount of entitlement i read in these and other threads is absolutely ridiculous the reason i know that "trying new things" works is because during WOL i mained T and had a like 30% win rate against garbage zergs, simply because the matchup was broken beyond belief. I didn't just post and cry about it, i practiced and tried new stuff constantly. It worked sometimes, but it required good decisions and scouting. the matchup had a genuine imbalance in it that was solved with the implementation of widow mines and speedboost for medivacs. If you want to play the "we've tried everything card" try something besides one strategy, and don't cry about losing to 3/3 bio when you delay your 3/3 only to crank out more 100/100 harass units that are ultimately redundant past 12-15 of them anyways. this thread always delivers. what advantage do corruptors have over mutas? they are maybe slightly vetter at killig mesivacs during combats. anything else im missing? for a thousand disadvantages... Their biggest advantage is that they will atutomatically fire all medivacs in range. With corruption, their damage spikes to 17 per shot. Medivacs, marauders will melt if you spam corruption. Same as why T build turrets to counter hellbat drops, kill the medivacs and whatever hellbats become sitting ducks.
yeah, they are quite OK for fighting Medivacs in a combat, due to more range, more HP/armor, tiny bit more dps when using corruption. (though they also cost a tiny bit more(
But same dropsituation with your hellbats: mutas kill the hellbats right after the medivac as well. No need to waste zerglings/banelings/positioning/actions to clean them up.
Look, when a Terran builds vikings for dropdefense, he still builds turrets, because vikings can't be everywhere really fast and they can't clean up drops if they happen to get through.
Same goes for Zerg with Corruptors. When you rely on corruptors to kill medivacs, you will need more static D. It gets more expensive, which is the exact thing you don't want.
It's not that it hasn't been tried... some zergs have used corruptors for medivac defense, but somehow it has never become popular. For - in my eyes - very obvious reasons: mutas can do a thousand jobs in TvZ. Corruptors can do 1 job and that one can be done by mutas as well, just a tiny bit worse. --> It's just not as good.
Please, could you stop with that stupid argument. I'm not advocating you to mass the current ghost in lategame TvZ either, although I could point out how they are "superduperstrong if used perfectly" (by a bot).
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On July 25 2013 16:12 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 07:47 LSN wrote:
this will get worse once terrans learn to perfectly use their new potential. As zergs lost potential there is nothing to learn for zergs.
Live vs. flash is a perfect example how tournament wins happen.
While life played the games of his life and did about 0 mistakes in the games that he won, he lost a few games to one single happening instantly after a few minutes vs flash who played below his average and below terran total potential. This made easy terran wins (one game flash won due to a single widow mine shot) and hard elaborated zerg wins. Still life only closely won 4:3 and 1 or 2 of these games where all-ins that flash could have easily hold if he knew how to scout and adapt the slightest bit to what the zerg is doing.
This is what terrans base their opinion on. they dont look how games are won, what efforts have been made and with what easy certain games are lost for zergs. Dude thanks for describing the awesomeness of Terran. The burst damage power of Terran can turn around a game at ANY POINT past 10 min. Original BW Terran combat units that had no form of burst damage, either from AoE or massive burst (stim/Yamato), is literally only TWO units... Goliath And the wraith. You can play perfect all game long, just need to screw up once against T and you can kiss your 10,000 gas has army goodbye. You mad, bro?
That was fucking stupid when it happened vs z in wol, when a couple of fungals against unsplit bio could just end the game (mkp vs stephano g2 @ mlg), and it's fucking stupid now.
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On July 25 2013 16:25 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 15:26 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 25 2013 03:33 Big J wrote:On July 25 2013 03:26 c0sm0naut wrote:On July 25 2013 03:12 Emzeeshady wrote:On July 25 2013 02:15 c0sm0naut wrote:
jesus christ this thread feels like a fucking time portal to 2010 or some shit
zergs, protip
dont spend 3k gas on mutas every game, build 12, dont lose them because given their speed there is no excuse for that, go immediately to ultras, even if it means delaying your 2/2 or 3/3, get them out and its smooth fucking sailing
dont spend 1k gas on a bane bust, just because you have mutas and terran took a third. this isn't wings of liberty anymore, you're not doing anything but putting yourself extremely behind going for these cheap wins I always laugh at random nobodies trying to tell pros how to play. If they think getting a large flock of Mutas and going for all ins is the way to beat Terran then it probably is. And if it isn't they will figure it out eventually and not thanks to some diamond player that thinks he knows what he is doing. i always laugh at zergs who mash square pegs into a circular hole, then whine to blizzard that circular holes are OP if mutas, lings, and banes are countered by mines + bio, why not try something else instead of mindlessly making the same composition. "“Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.” - einstein if you think i'm diamond, you're wrong, i'm masters as every race (1k as random with like 200 pool, i announce race every match and do not cheese) the suggestion earlier in the thread "getting corruptors" is smart as fuck, but none of the zergs crying in this thread are listening. it's been two weeks since hellbats were nerfed, zerg for the first time since 2012 isn't going to win a GSL. the amount of entitlement i read in these and other threads is absolutely ridiculous the reason i know that "trying new things" works is because during WOL i mained T and had a like 30% win rate against garbage zergs, simply because the matchup was broken beyond belief. I didn't just post and cry about it, i practiced and tried new stuff constantly. It worked sometimes, but it required good decisions and scouting. the matchup had a genuine imbalance in it that was solved with the implementation of widow mines and speedboost for medivacs. If you want to play the "we've tried everything card" try something besides one strategy, and don't cry about losing to 3/3 bio when you delay your 3/3 only to crank out more 100/100 harass units that are ultimately redundant past 12-15 of them anyways. this thread always delivers. what advantage do corruptors have over mutas? they are maybe slightly vetter at killig mesivacs during combats. anything else im missing? for a thousand disadvantages... Their biggest advantage is that they will atutomatically fire all medivacs in range. With corruption, their damage spikes to 17 per shot. Medivacs, marauders will melt if you spam corruption. Same as why T build turrets to counter hellbat drops, kill the medivacs and whatever hellbats become sitting ducks. yeah, they are quite OK for fighting Medivacs in a combat, due to more range, more HP/armor, tiny bit more dps when using corruption. (though they also cost a tiny bit more( But same dropsituation with your hellbats: mutas kill the hellbats right after the medivac as well. No need to waste zerglings/banelings/positioning/actions to clean them up. Look, when a Terran builds vikings for dropdefense, he still builds turrets, because vikings can't be everywhere really fast and they can't clean up drops if they happen to get through. Same goes for Zerg with Corruptors. When you rely on corruptors to kill medivacs, you will need more static D. It gets more expensive, which is the exact thing you don't want. It's not that it hasn't been tried... some zergs have used corruptors for medivac defense, but somehow it has never become popular. For - in my eyes - very obvious reasons: mutas can do a thousand jobs in TvZ. Corruptors can do 1 job and that one can be done by mutas as well, just a tiny bit worse. --> It's just not as good. Please, could you stop with that stupid argument. I'm not advocating you to mass the current ghost in lategame TvZ either, although I could point out how they are "superduperstrong if used perfectly" (by a bot).
You are neglecting a major point why we do this way of turret and Viking in the blind spots.
APM conservation. We'd rather spend our attention and APM on more important stuff like properly microing our two pronged drop.
If a single hellbat drop slips in undetected I now have to do split second decision making on not two screens from my multi prong drop but FOUR, because usually my opponent would be doing his own two prong drop at the same time as well!
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On July 25 2013 16:18 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 15:59 forsooth wrote:On July 25 2013 15:52 Rabiator wrote:On July 25 2013 15:18 plogamer wrote:On July 25 2013 15:15 Rabiator wrote:On July 25 2013 08:16 Green_25 wrote:
If you nerf mines, you HAVE to buff tanks. Otherwise we are just left with WOL again. Bio tank play just sucks in its current state David Kim thinks the Siege Tank play is boring ... so go figure what they will do. :\ Seriously, I loved the massive Seige lines in TvT back in WoL. Ghosts nuking tank lines to take positioning away and shit. It was so much fun to see armies spread halfway across the map like that. It was ... the "chess mentality" of "how to break this strong defense?" is probably too hard to understand for todays kids and devs ... and I always thought that was part of what a STRATEGY game was about. The sad part about it is that Blizzard is not interested in allowing for multiple and different styles of play to exist side-by-side in their game; they push everything towards "full speed and action" games because they are a "monotheistic" kind of developer where only one truth is allowed. Thus the Siege Tank wont be made viable as a core unit anymore and its only reason for continued existence are Roaches and Stalkers. This is actually one of the reasons I don't like the new HotS TvZ nearly as much as I did the early 2012 version of the matchup before the queen patch murdered it. Right now it's all about going as fast as you can and running around with your bio/mine. I liked it better when Terrans were all about setting up positions with tanks and actually laying siege to bases with a slow and methodical push across the map. It's pretty sad when seeing Terran's most fun and iconic unit outside of TvT is a rare moment. I disagree that the siege tank is the most fun unit. It is the most strategical perhaps but it also causes a lot of boring not so fun situations. I like the state of the siege tank now. Dominant in TvT, safety unit in TvZ and cheesy unit in TvP.
The state of tank now includes 1/1/1? But 1/1/1 doesn't exist in the current state of TvP. Weird.
Its also weird you can't see that the most strategic unit is the most fun unit for a person who likes to play a real-time strategy game.
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On July 25 2013 16:32 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 16:25 Big J wrote:On July 25 2013 15:26 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 25 2013 03:33 Big J wrote:On July 25 2013 03:26 c0sm0naut wrote:On July 25 2013 03:12 Emzeeshady wrote:On July 25 2013 02:15 c0sm0naut wrote:
jesus christ this thread feels like a fucking time portal to 2010 or some shit
zergs, protip
dont spend 3k gas on mutas every game, build 12, dont lose them because given their speed there is no excuse for that, go immediately to ultras, even if it means delaying your 2/2 or 3/3, get them out and its smooth fucking sailing
dont spend 1k gas on a bane bust, just because you have mutas and terran took a third. this isn't wings of liberty anymore, you're not doing anything but putting yourself extremely behind going for these cheap wins I always laugh at random nobodies trying to tell pros how to play. If they think getting a large flock of Mutas and going for all ins is the way to beat Terran then it probably is. And if it isn't they will figure it out eventually and not thanks to some diamond player that thinks he knows what he is doing. i always laugh at zergs who mash square pegs into a circular hole, then whine to blizzard that circular holes are OP if mutas, lings, and banes are countered by mines + bio, why not try something else instead of mindlessly making the same composition. "“Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.” - einstein if you think i'm diamond, you're wrong, i'm masters as every race (1k as random with like 200 pool, i announce race every match and do not cheese) the suggestion earlier in the thread "getting corruptors" is smart as fuck, but none of the zergs crying in this thread are listening. it's been two weeks since hellbats were nerfed, zerg for the first time since 2012 isn't going to win a GSL. the amount of entitlement i read in these and other threads is absolutely ridiculous the reason i know that "trying new things" works is because during WOL i mained T and had a like 30% win rate against garbage zergs, simply because the matchup was broken beyond belief. I didn't just post and cry about it, i practiced and tried new stuff constantly. It worked sometimes, but it required good decisions and scouting. the matchup had a genuine imbalance in it that was solved with the implementation of widow mines and speedboost for medivacs. If you want to play the "we've tried everything card" try something besides one strategy, and don't cry about losing to 3/3 bio when you delay your 3/3 only to crank out more 100/100 harass units that are ultimately redundant past 12-15 of them anyways. this thread always delivers. what advantage do corruptors have over mutas? they are maybe slightly vetter at killig mesivacs during combats. anything else im missing? for a thousand disadvantages... Their biggest advantage is that they will atutomatically fire all medivacs in range. With corruption, their damage spikes to 17 per shot. Medivacs, marauders will melt if you spam corruption. Same as why T build turrets to counter hellbat drops, kill the medivacs and whatever hellbats become sitting ducks. yeah, they are quite OK for fighting Medivacs in a combat, due to more range, more HP/armor, tiny bit more dps when using corruption. (though they also cost a tiny bit more( But same dropsituation with your hellbats: mutas kill the hellbats right after the medivac as well. No need to waste zerglings/banelings/positioning/actions to clean them up. Look, when a Terran builds vikings for dropdefense, he still builds turrets, because vikings can't be everywhere really fast and they can't clean up drops if they happen to get through. Same goes for Zerg with Corruptors. When you rely on corruptors to kill medivacs, you will need more static D. It gets more expensive, which is the exact thing you don't want. It's not that it hasn't been tried... some zergs have used corruptors for medivac defense, but somehow it has never become popular. For - in my eyes - very obvious reasons: mutas can do a thousand jobs in TvZ. Corruptors can do 1 job and that one can be done by mutas as well, just a tiny bit worse. --> It's just not as good. Please, could you stop with that stupid argument. I'm not advocating you to mass the current ghost in lategame TvZ either, although I could point out how they are "superduperstrong if used perfectly" (by a bot). You are neglecting a major point why we do this way of turret and Viking in the blind spots. APM conservation. We'd rather spend our attention and APM on more important stuff like properly microing our two pronged drop. If a single hellbat drop slips in undetected I now have to do split second decision making on not two screens from my multi prong drop but FOUR, because usually my opponent would be doing his own two prong drop at the same time as well!
... sorry, forgot that you are under the impression that zergs problem with apm is that they don't want to stop drinking coffee while playing and that there is no APM conservation for them.
... sorry, forgot that you really believe this kind of 4pronged drops happens all the time in TvTs. And that microing a drop to kill one more worker is more important than safing your whole f*cking mineral line at home when it happens that you really drop each other at the same time.
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On July 25 2013 15:16 crazyweasel wrote:
sup anyone whos wathcing kangho vs reality right now 80 scv's killed by zerg players. yet reality was still in the game with marine marauder mine and medivacs after 20 minutes, then he eventually lost, hopefully.(i mean 80 scv kills that should be normal how many times zerg loses due to only 15 drones kills).
here's the balance issue: is bio (tier 1 units) able to deal with any zerg composition, even when zerg adds tier2 (mutas) into the original tier1 (ling + bling) , while any harassement from zerg (investment, necessary to ensure tech transition or expands from zerg) can be neglected(economy wise) by Mules'power + bio's viability against new zerg composition. here we have a situation that even if zerg stabilize into the game(transitions to next tier) he has invested shit, while terran can keep up with low risk investment (stim marine/marauder/mines medvac harras) to establish more bases
my suggestion :
make stim have a cool down, say you have a limit of 6-10 stim per marine/maurauder then a cooldown to reset the stims (wouldNt that be normal, injecting shit that x3 your dps without overdosing?) then the ridiculous drop/stim/pickups harass would at least require a ressource commitment for a terran player who just like lings who runby eventually get killed (are suicidal for distraction/positioning/counterattack purpose).
that way both races require a full commitment (of ressources/larva /unit) to a runby or drop harass in order to gain an advantage over an aspect of the game wether its base establishment or tech transition.
terran IS OP at gosulevel nuffsaid
Mines and medivacs aren't tier 1 units. So you have two armies on tier 1/tier 2 and neither break each other. No surprise.
And I watched that game. Reality wasn't "still in it," it was more of a long slow death animation.
I'd be very careful about nerfing stim, because it could easily make "terran slightly OP" into "terran loses 80% of games." It's a massively important mechanic for bio to be viable (and we already know that mech isn't viable).
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On July 25 2013 17:04 Terrasmith wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 15:16 crazyweasel wrote:
sup anyone whos wathcing kangho vs reality right now 80 scv's killed by zerg players. yet reality was still in the game with marine marauder mine and medivacs after 20 minutes, then he eventually lost, hopefully.(i mean 80 scv kills that should be normal how many times zerg loses due to only 15 drones kills).
here's the balance issue: is bio (tier 1 units) able to deal with any zerg composition, even when zerg adds tier2 (mutas) into the original tier1 (ling + bling) , while any harassement from zerg (investment, necessary to ensure tech transition or expands from zerg) can be neglected(economy wise) by Mules'power + bio's viability against new zerg composition. here we have a situation that even if zerg stabilize into the game(transitions to next tier) he has invested shit, while terran can keep up with low risk investment (stim marine/marauder/mines medvac harras) to establish more bases
my suggestion :
make stim have a cool down, say you have a limit of 6-10 stim per marine/maurauder then a cooldown to reset the stims (wouldNt that be normal, injecting shit that x3 your dps without overdosing?) then the ridiculous drop/stim/pickups harass would at least require a ressource commitment for a terran player who just like lings who runby eventually get killed (are suicidal for distraction/positioning/counterattack purpose).
that way both races require a full commitment (of ressources/larva /unit) to a runby or drop harass in order to gain an advantage over an aspect of the game wether its base establishment or tech transition.
terran IS OP at gosulevel nuffsaid Mines and medivacs aren't tier 1 units. So you have two armies on tier 1/tier 2 and neither break each other. No surprise. And I watched that game. Reality wasn't "still in it," it was more of a long slow death animation. I'd be very careful about nerfing stim, because it could easily make "terran slightly OP" into "terran loses 80% of games." It's a massively important mechanic for bio to be viable (and we already know that mech isn't viable).
also buff >>> nerf! so really hope they let bio stay the same, buff mech, buff zerg harrass and maybe blinding cloud so it has its uses vs bio. whatever buf dont nerf the OP race and buff the UP race instead.
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On July 25 2013 12:55 saddaromma wrote:I remember how we had this approach in the end of WoL. Zergs winning everything with brood-infestor the whole fucking year. Now we need to wait until LotV and everything will be fixed.
Nah. Biggest mistake Blizzard made was not the queen patch itself in May 2012.
It was the unwillingness to revert the change or nerf Zerg in other ways around August when it was absolutely clear that Zerg was OP.
If the current trend continues for a few months and it is much clearer that Terran is OP, then I would support balance changes, but until then I still want to see pro Zergs come up with solutions just like Terran had to do back then.
On July 25 2013 17:08 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 17:04 Terrasmith wrote:On July 25 2013 15:16 crazyweasel wrote:
sup anyone whos wathcing kangho vs reality right now 80 scv's killed by zerg players. yet reality was still in the game with marine marauder mine and medivacs after 20 minutes, then he eventually lost, hopefully.(i mean 80 scv kills that should be normal how many times zerg loses due to only 15 drones kills).
here's the balance issue: is bio (tier 1 units) able to deal with any zerg composition, even when zerg adds tier2 (mutas) into the original tier1 (ling + bling) , while any harassement from zerg (investment, necessary to ensure tech transition or expands from zerg) can be neglected(economy wise) by Mules'power + bio's viability against new zerg composition. here we have a situation that even if zerg stabilize into the game(transitions to next tier) he has invested shit, while terran can keep up with low risk investment (stim marine/marauder/mines medvac harras) to establish more bases
my suggestion :
make stim have a cool down, say you have a limit of 6-10 stim per marine/maurauder then a cooldown to reset the stims (wouldNt that be normal, injecting shit that x3 your dps without overdosing?) then the ridiculous drop/stim/pickups harass would at least require a ressource commitment for a terran player who just like lings who runby eventually get killed (are suicidal for distraction/positioning/counterattack purpose).
that way both races require a full commitment (of ressources/larva /unit) to a runby or drop harass in order to gain an advantage over an aspect of the game wether its base establishment or tech transition.
terran IS OP at gosulevel nuffsaid Mines and medivacs aren't tier 1 units. So you have two armies on tier 1/tier 2 and neither break each other. No surprise. And I watched that game. Reality wasn't "still in it," it was more of a long slow death animation. I'd be very careful about nerfing stim, because it could easily make "terran slightly OP" into "terran loses 80% of games." It's a massively important mechanic for bio to be viable (and we already know that mech isn't viable). also buff >>> nerf! so really hope they let bio stay the same, buff mech, buff zerg harrass and maybe blinding cloud so it has its uses vs bio. whatever buf dont nerf the OP race and buff the UP race instead.
I always don't understand this buff > nerf mentality. Who cares as long as balance is achieved or games become more entertaining? Nerf if necessary.
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On July 25 2013 17:58 Orek wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 12:55 saddaromma wrote:On July 25 2013 08:28 Orek wrote:
Do we need balance change now? NO
I remember how we had this approach in the end of WoL. Zergs winning everything with brood-infestor the whole fucking year. Now we need to wait until LotV and everything will be fixed. Nah. Biggest mistake Blizzard made was not the queen patch itself in May 2012. It was the unwillingness to revert the change or nerf Zerg in other ways around August when it was absolutely clear that Zerg was OP. If the current trend continues for a few months and it is much clearer that Terran is OP, then I would support balance changes, but until then I still want to see pro Zergs come up with solutions just like Terran had to do back then. Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 17:08 Decendos wrote:On July 25 2013 17:04 Terrasmith wrote:On July 25 2013 15:16 crazyweasel wrote:
sup anyone whos wathcing kangho vs reality right now 80 scv's killed by zerg players. yet reality was still in the game with marine marauder mine and medivacs after 20 minutes, then he eventually lost, hopefully.(i mean 80 scv kills that should be normal how many times zerg loses due to only 15 drones kills).
here's the balance issue: is bio (tier 1 units) able to deal with any zerg composition, even when zerg adds tier2 (mutas) into the original tier1 (ling + bling) , while any harassement from zerg (investment, necessary to ensure tech transition or expands from zerg) can be neglected(economy wise) by Mules'power + bio's viability against new zerg composition. here we have a situation that even if zerg stabilize into the game(transitions to next tier) he has invested shit, while terran can keep up with low risk investment (stim marine/marauder/mines medvac harras) to establish more bases
my suggestion :
make stim have a cool down, say you have a limit of 6-10 stim per marine/maurauder then a cooldown to reset the stims (wouldNt that be normal, injecting shit that x3 your dps without overdosing?) then the ridiculous drop/stim/pickups harass would at least require a ressource commitment for a terran player who just like lings who runby eventually get killed (are suicidal for distraction/positioning/counterattack purpose).
that way both races require a full commitment (of ressources/larva /unit) to a runby or drop harass in order to gain an advantage over an aspect of the game wether its base establishment or tech transition.
terran IS OP at gosulevel nuffsaid Mines and medivacs aren't tier 1 units. So you have two armies on tier 1/tier 2 and neither break each other. No surprise. And I watched that game. Reality wasn't "still in it," it was more of a long slow death animation. I'd be very careful about nerfing stim, because it could easily make "terran slightly OP" into "terran loses 80% of games." It's a massively important mechanic for bio to be viable (and we already know that mech isn't viable). also buff >>> nerf! so really hope they let bio stay the same, buff mech, buff zerg harrass and maybe blinding cloud so it has its uses vs bio. whatever buf dont nerf the OP race and buff the UP race instead. I always don't understand this buff > nerf mentality. Who cares as long as balance is achieved or games become more entertaining? Nerf if necessary.
I think the buff >> nerf trend has happened since people have seen icefrogs balancing decisions, without remembering just how wrong things can go if somethings overbuffed. Ie, phantom lancer, or even something closer to home, the queen buff.
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On July 25 2013 17:58 Orek wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 12:55 saddaromma wrote:On July 25 2013 08:28 Orek wrote:
Do we need balance change now? NO
I remember how we had this approach in the end of WoL. Zergs winning everything with brood-infestor the whole fucking year. Now we need to wait until LotV and everything will be fixed. Nah. Biggest mistake Blizzard made was not the queen patch itself in May 2012. It was the unwillingness to revert the change or nerf Zerg in other ways around August when it was absolutely clear that Zerg was OP. If the current trend continues for a few months and it is much clearer that Terran is OP, then I would support balance changes, but until then I still want to see pro Zergs come up with solutions just like Terran had to do back then. Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 17:08 Decendos wrote:On July 25 2013 17:04 Terrasmith wrote:On July 25 2013 15:16 crazyweasel wrote:
sup anyone whos wathcing kangho vs reality right now 80 scv's killed by zerg players. yet reality was still in the game with marine marauder mine and medivacs after 20 minutes, then he eventually lost, hopefully.(i mean 80 scv kills that should be normal how many times zerg loses due to only 15 drones kills).
here's the balance issue: is bio (tier 1 units) able to deal with any zerg composition, even when zerg adds tier2 (mutas) into the original tier1 (ling + bling) , while any harassement from zerg (investment, necessary to ensure tech transition or expands from zerg) can be neglected(economy wise) by Mules'power + bio's viability against new zerg composition. here we have a situation that even if zerg stabilize into the game(transitions to next tier) he has invested shit, while terran can keep up with low risk investment (stim marine/marauder/mines medvac harras) to establish more bases
my suggestion :
make stim have a cool down, say you have a limit of 6-10 stim per marine/maurauder then a cooldown to reset the stims (wouldNt that be normal, injecting shit that x3 your dps without overdosing?) then the ridiculous drop/stim/pickups harass would at least require a ressource commitment for a terran player who just like lings who runby eventually get killed (are suicidal for distraction/positioning/counterattack purpose).
that way both races require a full commitment (of ressources/larva /unit) to a runby or drop harass in order to gain an advantage over an aspect of the game wether its base establishment or tech transition.
terran IS OP at gosulevel nuffsaid Mines and medivacs aren't tier 1 units. So you have two armies on tier 1/tier 2 and neither break each other. No surprise. And I watched that game. Reality wasn't "still in it," it was more of a long slow death animation. I'd be very careful about nerfing stim, because it could easily make "terran slightly OP" into "terran loses 80% of games." It's a massively important mechanic for bio to be viable (and we already know that mech isn't viable). also buff >>> nerf! so really hope they let bio stay the same, buff mech, buff zerg harrass and maybe blinding cloud so it has its uses vs bio. whatever buf dont nerf the OP race and buff the UP race instead. I always don't understand this buff > nerf mentality. Who cares as long as balance is achieved or games become more entertaining? Nerf if necessary.
well the thing is that every race has 3-8 things that are completely useless or very underused. so if you can buff this underused stuff AND fix winrates at the same time: go for it and make the game more fun by opening up more viable techs and strats.
for example if you say zerg needs help in zvt and give hydras +X dmg to bio (maybe reverse +bio dmg to spores to not make hydras too strong ZvZ) that could open up roach hydra play while still keeping ling bane muta a viable option and having basically no affect PvZ or vs mech (yes i know biotag hellbats...its just an example and biotag should be removed anyway + give hellbats some more hp to compensate).
if then in some months TvZ would be Z favored for several months and blizz decides T needs some help you could for example buff snipe to balance it out and there you go. before both hydras and ghosts werent seen in TvZ and then they would both be viable while keeping the old strats.
just an example but you get where i am going.
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I always don't understand this buff > nerf mentality. Who cares as long as balance is achieved or games become more entertaining? Nerf if necessary.
Because nerfs made the reaper shit, Voidrays too, tanks too (Even in TvZ, BFHellion made the job better with MMM when 1 attack was searched AND a good split) Ghost outside of TvP, etc...
Nerfs completly smashed units or compositions. While buffs bring new things. In BW more than HALF of the units were OP. And it brings the strategy part "How to counter them, how to break them". And the game was overall balanced thanks to the maps. I want to see the same thing in SC2.
Roach 1 supply why not, Hydras coming with range, double-sized storm, tank shredding ground, Mines shredding air. If we have some OP stuff who are dealt with by SKILL. We have a strategic game. If we have only "balanced" stuff countered by other "balanced" stuff, we have an action game.
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On July 25 2013 18:13 MTAC wrote:Show nested quote +I always don't understand this buff > nerf mentality. Who cares as long as balance is achieved or games become more entertaining? Nerf if necessary. Because nerfs made the reaper shit, Voidrays too, tanks too (Even in TvZ, BFHellion made the job better with MMM when 1 attack was searched AND a good split) Ghost outside of TvP, etc... Nerfs completly smashed units or compositions. While buffs bring new things. In BW more than HALF of the units were OP. And it brings the strategy part "How to counter them, how to break them". And the game was overall balanced thanks to the maps. I want to see the same thing in SC2. Roach 1 supply why not, Hydras coming with range, double-sized storm, tank shredding ground, Mines shredding air. If we have some OP stuff who are dealt with by SKILL. We have a strategic game. If we have only "balanced" stuff countered by other "balanced" stuff, we have an action game.
It's impossible for more than half of the stuff to be OP. Because overpowered means too powerful in relation to the other stuff in the game.
But the idea why this buff instead of nerf is interesting is because in WoL very little stuff was viable, as a lot of things very worse in simple ways.
Infestors>Hydras for damage output, antiair, antiharass etc...
Bio(mech)>Mech for engagements and mapcontrol
Roaches>Costefficient than every Protoss gateway unit
Robo>Stargate in every figured out scenario
...
Of course, all of that took a lot of time to figure out. But now that we have this knowledge and can put it to use to diversify what we have by buffing the stuff that is not useful to a state where it may be better at 1-2 things than the other option.
Meanwhile, nerfing will just screw up the solid gameplay we have.
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On July 25 2013 18:13 MTAC wrote:Show nested quote +I always don't understand this buff > nerf mentality. Who cares as long as balance is achieved or games become more entertaining? Nerf if necessary. Because nerfs made the reaper shit, Voidrays too, tanks too (Even in TvZ, BFHellion made the job better with MMM when 1 attack was searched AND a good split) Ghost outside of TvP, etc... Nerfs completly smashed units or compositions. While buffs bring new things. In BW more than HALF of the units were OP. And it brings the strategy part "How to counter them, how to break them". And the game was overall balanced thanks to the maps. I want to see the same thing in SC2. Roach 1 supply why not, Hydras coming with range, double-sized storm, tank shredding ground, Mines shredding air. If we have some OP stuff who are dealt with by SKILL. We have a strategic game. If we have only "balanced" stuff countered by other "balanced" stuff, we have an action game.
That's an excellent point to make. Powerful units that completely annihilate others without much opposition, but are hard countered by something else in turn, is what makes a real time strategy game interesting and unforgiving. BW was naturally like this also because units died so fast that one mistake ended the game. A lot of other more noob friendly RTS games have units come with so much HP and so 'all around' stats and combat abilities that you can literally just walk your whole army in a ball to the enemy base and meet the enemy army and then decide mid combat that naah I'll just walk back home again and to me that's just awful, uninteresting, unstrategic and simply bad, but atleast people can use whatever units they like instead of having to resort to 'I demand to be able to use unit X against unit Y, buff please' threads.
Additionally, I'd like to point out the problem noone likes to admit, which is that oftentimes the devs in Blizzard games listen to player feedback too much. Players as a whole have no idea (they're simply not qualified) what it takes to design a balanced and interesting game with a long lifespan and therefore their requests and demands are baseless and without any foundation except that they are paying customers. I could give a number of examples where players have demanded things and Blizzard has delivered, but those things have ended up being very harmful in the long run, but that's subject for another thread.
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That first Rain vs Supernova game was fucking disgusting. All kinds of pro tricks from Rain, great storms again and again and almost no effective use of ghosts or splitting from Supernova.
And what happens? Supernova just busts his way through, mindlessly with MMM. He pulls his SCVs, but it doesn't matter if he loses them as long as he takes down a base. Take down a Terran base and they just fly over one of their 5 CCs.
I'm done with this bullshit. Starcraft 2 is now dead to me.
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On July 25 2013 18:39 GreenGringo wrote:
That first Rain vs Supernova game was fucking disgusting. All kinds of pro tricks from Rain, great storms again and again and almost no effective use of ghosts or splitting from Supernova.
And what happens? Supernova just busts his way through, mindlessly with MMM. He pulls his SCVs, but it doesn't matter if he loses them as long as he takes down a base. Take down a Terran base and they just fly over one of their 5 CCs.
I'm done with this bullshit. Starcraft 2 is now dead to me.
while i´ll agree to some extent it was MMM + hellbat + SCVs AND supernova had an advantage after killing 16 workers + rain building 2 cannons instead of gates + only having 1 forge so rains upgrades and production was delayed.
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@Greengringo. supernova killed 18 probes in the beginning of the game. Smashed a lot of army on the frontal engagement. So he wasn't behind but things gets even coz of bad spliting against storm/no Focus on vikings/and left 2 HT with storm.
Rain always gets harrassing with Lots. So he pulls SCV, that was a smart call; he knew Rain didn't have lots of storms coz of good EMP just before. And not enough warpin coz of harrassement. Rain pretended to protect his FOURTH facing an all-in, REWARPED to harrass economy instead of holding the push. And kept warping lots and HT whitout energy/archon against HB and ghosts. The 2 guys played well at different times. The game was cool. You are the most biaised guy ive seen in this thread.
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On July 25 2013 18:39 GreenGringo wrote:
That first Rain vs Supernova game was fucking disgusting. All kinds of pro tricks from Rain, great storms again and again and almost no effective use of ghosts or splitting from Supernova.
And what happens? Supernova just busts his way through, mindlessly with MMM. He pulls his SCVs, but it doesn't matter if he loses them as long as he takes down a base. Take down a Terran base and they just fly over one of their 5 CCs.
I'm done with this bullshit. Starcraft 2 is now dead to me.
Or someone else could say "supernova kills 18 probes, and still almost loses and had to pull scvs."
Your bias is clear as day.
/edit
The second Rain vs Supernova game was fucking disgusting. Nah, it was beautiful. Rain's so fucking good. DT to immortal was so beautiful. Definitely going to be standard PvT.
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On July 25 2013 18:55 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 18:39 GreenGringo wrote:
That first Rain vs Supernova game was fucking disgusting. All kinds of pro tricks from Rain, great storms again and again and almost no effective use of ghosts or splitting from Supernova.
And what happens? Supernova just busts his way through, mindlessly with MMM. He pulls his SCVs, but it doesn't matter if he loses them as long as he takes down a base. Take down a Terran base and they just fly over one of their 5 CCs.
I'm done with this bullshit. Starcraft 2 is now dead to me. Or someone else could say "supernova kills 18 probes, and still almost loses and had to pull scvs." Your bias is clear as day.
Not that I have any comment on the actual game, but your counter-argument to whatever he said is flawed. Supernova might've killed 18 probes, but then Rain just played so good / Supernova just played so bad that Supernova almost lost. I can't see how that's supposed to prove that whatever the disgusted guy said is wrong.
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Good God...Rain's a million times better than Supernova. Look at that multi-layered bust in game 2, where he deliberately pushes with a zealot-templar sub-division of his force, keeps the immortals back to go after the production. Perfect timing, superb follow up with DTs. Compare that with Supernova's mindlessly attacking (almost A-moving) at a random time with MMM + workers.
The intellectual gulf between top Terran and top Protoss is laughably, deliciously hilarious.
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EPT
