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On March 31 2013 06:27 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 31 2013 06:17 Xequecal wrote:
A few things both sides are missing here:
1. Missile turrets don't "counter" oracles. Yes, you can spend 400 minerals to protect your workers. The thing is, the oracles still shoot down and do 32 DPS to marines, and zealots can tank for them just like they tank for anything. Also, note that it takes about ten seconds for two oracles to kill a tech lab, and losing your stim research is game ending.
The main problem with oracles is you're playing Protoss with warpgates, which means you can't macro while harassing with them. Terran can micro their drops and continue to produce units just fine because all production can be done with hotkeys. I have lost at least a half dozen games after killing 20 SCVs with oracles because they just ran in and killed my ass due to floating 1200 minerals while harassing.
2. Photon cannons don't counter any kind of drop. I play at high masters, and pretty much 100% of Terrans open with a widow mine drop because it's virtually guaranteed to kill probes. The reaction time you have to run your probes away from the burrowing mine before it fires at them is miniscule, and even if you have a cannon in place the mine will burrow and fire before the cannon kills it. How often do you stare at the minimap? You don't get "your forces are under attack" until the mine fires. Even looking at the minimap every 5 seconds still gives Terran enough of a window to get the mine in there and kill 8 probes. Running your workers away is actually very dangerous because they clump when you run them and if the mine targets a straggler you're going to lose almost all of them. You play high masters and only look at minimap that little? Maybe it's a by-product of being Terran and needing to watch for the enemy moving on your army constantly/watching for harasses but it's probably what I spend most of my time looking at.
Most high masters protoss I play end up moving their probes the second they see the medivac which is why I like to drop a mine on the edge of the base and run it to the ramp while he will be distracted by my medivac heading to his mineral line. because the natural reaction is to send ur workers to ur other mining base rather than just leaving them idle so your guaranteed to catch that train.
BTW I don't recommend cannons for early game drop defence, vs widows you should have either oracle envision or a obs by the time the drop comes, if you went DT or blink then your prob going to not be able to mine for a long time, might as well BitbyBit those probes... but when your nearing max taking bases a well-placed cannon/templar defence can shut down 1-2 medivac drops easily.
Do you think it would be a viable option to try switching your WG into normal gateways so that you can just rally units out normally? If your not planning to be offensive it seems like an easy way to reduce your need to look back at your base for warp-ins...
No, gateways take time to convert, build slower than warpgates and are not front loaded. A better way is to skip a couple of units before your harass and start extra gateways, let your minerals go a bit high while you micro and then when you pull back with your air units you have enough production to spend your money.
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On March 31 2013 06:49 Xequecal wrote:
Actually, the much more difficult problem is constantly having to look back at your base to morph each gateway to a warpgate as it finishes building, and then 10 seconds later click back again to build a unit out of it. One click back to warp in units wouldn't be that hard. This cannot be done with hotkeys very easily because if you have even one warpgate in the same selection group with gateways, the morph to warpgate option does not appear. You have to do this with every single gateway as it finishes building. Terran on the other hand can immediately hotkey under-construction barracks in the same group with all their other barracks, and make an addon or start making units out of that barracks when it completes, without ever looking at their base and with one hotkey only.
So again, why not use gateways not warp gates, so that you CAN make units on hot key. Explore the options of your race
Edit: I realize its not front-loaded but why not delay wg tech when your going oracle, and since you say you die to the following surely queing gw units is preferable to just warping in at the last moment. You say it yourself you die all te time when you have a massive lead, that wouldn't happen if you we're continuously rallying units. Also the delay in build time is negligible as you lose that time by not warping in perfectly efficiently.
Pooling funds then investing en-masse in infrastructure is screaming at your opponent "here's a timing hit me where it hurts"
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Something needs to be done about the new mutas before touching skytoss.
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On March 31 2013 04:04 c0sm0naut wrote:
would like to hear people's thoughts on early game TvP from both sides
a couple of things have changed that are making 1 rax FE very difficult for me as a terran and i'm starting to think that this build (korean 15 orbital 16 CC) will almost always make u behind from damage taken now.
in WOL the biggest threat as every terran knows from a 1 base protoss was the blink stalkers obs build, and on certain maps, the immortal all in. in hots, many things have changed including:
1. now they can use starting hallucination spell to fake immortal busts
2. proxy oracles can come so quickly that an ebay at 5 min is becoming standard...
3. all all ins they do now have timewarp mixed in, its really good to cast near the bunkers as you bust through, because the bio not in the bunkers takes longer to get into range and on most maps if you cast 2 timewarps, no matter what if terran tries to chase down the ramp, he cannot catch up because time warp covers the whole ramp. Add it to blink all in by casting it on terran's ramp and then by the time i'm back into my main base to defend, my stim has already been sniped and its GG.
4. dark templars now cost less so you can use that 100 gas to get a robotics, +1 upgrade whatever.
5. voidrays do bonus dmg vs bunkers and with their boost ability can shred it in seconds
so, if i see 2 gas from protoss, even if it's 2 probes in each gas, every game i feel forced to :
1. 1 bunker at least and it needs to be done at 5:00
2. have 4 marines in the main base for MSC poke, do not transfer scvs to natural because of zealot stalker + msc in the back poke
3. have two missile turrets by 5:30-5:45, one in each mineral line
4. add another missile turret at the front near my bunker for DTs/detect hallucinations
5. not ever leave my base before stim, +1 and 2 medivacs are about to finish
i find this really unfair, when my only viable harass tool now is speed drop mines, which are random in effectiveness against normal players, and ineffective against top level players. everything is beaten by the photon overcharge and adding just regular cannons to a small gate + collosus army
I've been trying mainly mech, and I rarely win with it. Seems like Protoss doesn't need to really do anything out of the ordinary to counter it either ( can basically play the same they do vs bio, maybe adding a few more immortals ). Not only that but they have a few more options for dealing with it in HotS they didn't have before.
I still feel like the trick to TvP is never getting to the late game.. that really hasn't been fixed yet, but it may be too early to tell.
So yeah, I think stim/medivac timing as well as 1-1-1 are still the best options.
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On March 31 2013 03:12 Rossie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 02:15 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:
PS. Oracles are less powerful than "doom drops" because an oracle is a 150/150 investment per unit requiring 250/150 of infrastructure. "Doom drops" imply 3+ medivacs which will be roughly 30 supply of MM in 3 medivacs. Assuming you have any decent math skills and an even split of marine/marauder that is (15x50+ 100x18)/(25x15+100x3)=???
And requires a lot more infrastructure. Oracles are clearly less powerful than doom drops. The hard counter to an oracle is a 100-mineral missile turret. That is how absurd this discussion is. Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 02:15 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:Edit: Widow mine OP as Protoss? dude you must really suck. stalkers outrange it and you have detection on 2 of 3 of your techpaths. The only way you can kill a Protoss with mines is the terrible players who just A-move across the map without having an observer/without splitting their army. The only change I would make to mines is adjusting their priority to be equal to casters. A-move across the map...you mean like Terran?
Oh, that's right. You have to press T as well, and maybe a few clicks with widow mines. Boo fucking hoo.
lmao, I used to think like this when I was playing Protoss back in 2010 and 11, but then switched over to Terran and I'm telling you micro with terran is the hardest thing you possibly can. Try to dodge mass storms and stutter steps against 20+ zealots while target fire and macroing. Then come back and tell me that's you're regret about everything u said.
Protoss micro require extra precision when it need to FFs or storms/fb, but other than that you can play much slower than terran.
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On March 31 2013 06:49 Xequecal wrote:
Actually, the much more difficult problem is constantly having to look back at your base to morph each gateway to a warpgate as it finishes building, and then 10 seconds later click back again to build a unit out of it. One click back to warp in units wouldn't be that hard. This cannot be done with hotkeys very easily because if you have even one warpgate in the same selection group with gateways, the morph to warpgate option does not appear. You have to do this with every single gateway as it finishes building. Terran on the other hand can immediately hotkey under-construction barracks in the same group with all their other barracks, and make an addon or start making units out of that barracks when it completes, without ever looking at their base and with one hotkey only.
Huh, I'm not sure I understand. I hardly play anymore, but you can morph gateways to warpgates by deselecting all the warpgates/selecting all the gates and simply pressing "G" for all the gates you want morphed. You don't need to look back into your base, as long as you already added the building gates to your existing warpgates hotkey. Once they are all built, you simply do as above and you have more warpgates without having to look away. (IMO, this is one of the benefits of having your gates on a separate hotkey, I used to have "5", rather than relying on the W key. It's easier to keep track of cooldowns too.)
@ Wombat: glad to hear you are enjoying the game, mate. Good stuff. _b
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I would love to see some harder mechanics brought to protoss other than T and F. Most the units you don't even need to micro regardless if its easy ( like stutter step ). I really thought they'd bring the Reaver back and replace the colossus but I was wrong.
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On March 31 2013 07:43 Emzeeshady wrote:Agreed but that is on the back burner because Zerg has many ways to kill Toss now before they can get mass air. Terran should be top priority right now.
A top priority for what? There's no signs that Terran is actually "too strong" or any of that nonsense. Look at ladder populations, pro streams, and the few tournaments we've had. There aren't any Terrans beating people they shouldn't be beating (within a certain margin).
Wtf is up with this stupid community consensus of "Well yea, of COURSE Terran should be nerfed!"despite all signs saying otherwise...
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aksfjh United States. March 31 2013 08:27. Posts 3185 PM Profile Report Quote #
On March 31 2013 07:43 Emzeeshady wrote:
Show nested quote +
Agreed but that is on the back burner because Zerg has many ways to kill Toss now before they can get mass air.
Terran should be top priority right now.
A top priority for what? There's no signs that Terran is actually "too strong" or any of that nonsense. Look at ladder populations, pro streams, and the few tournaments we've had. There aren't any Terrans beating people they shouldn't be beating (within a certain margin).
Wtf is up with this stupid community consensus of "Well yea, of COURSE Terran should be nerfed!"despite all signs saying otherwise...
That's interesting because I constantly see no name terrans destroying zergs they shouldn't even be close to beating. I just spent the last two hours watching Stephano get destroyed by Demuslim over and over and over again. Stephano never even got close to winning in any of the games. Nothing against Demuslim but we all know he shouldn't be able to yawn his way to victory 7-0 over Stephano.
You have to be delusional not to realize that Terran is OP vs Zerg right now. I'd say easily even more OP than broodlord/infestor pre-nerf.
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On March 31 2013 08:56 Innovation wrote:Show nested quote +aksfjh United States. March 31 2013 08:27. Posts 3185 PM Profile Report Quote #
On March 31 2013 07:43 Emzeeshady wrote:
Show nested quote +
Agreed but that is on the back burner because Zerg has many ways to kill Toss now before they can get mass air.
Terran should be top priority right now.
A top priority for what? There's no signs that Terran is actually "too strong" or any of that nonsense. Look at ladder populations, pro streams, and the few tournaments we've had. There aren't any Terrans beating people they shouldn't be beating (within a certain margin).
Wtf is up with this stupid community consensus of "Well yea, of COURSE Terran should be nerfed!"despite all signs saying otherwise... That's interesting because I constantly see no name terrans destroying zergs they shouldn't even be close to beating. I just spent the last two hours watching Stephano get destroyed by Demuslim over and over and over again. Stephano never even got close to winning in any of the games. Nothing against Demuslim but we all know he shouldn't be able to yawn his way to victory 7-0 over Stephano. You have to be delusional not to realize that Terran is OP vs Zerg right now. I'd say easily even more OP than broodlord/infestor pre-nerf.
stephano also never makes muta, ever, even though the meta calls for muta atm
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On March 28 2013 07:02 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2013 05:56 Innovation wrote:You have the same problem with many units. It's just how an RTS works out.
But yeah, I agree that they should not have buffed mutas/phoenix. Or only buffed pheonix and differently, like to make them slightly better against ground. There really was no need for any mutalisk buff and we get the bill for it now in the form of terrible ZvZ. While I agree that muta wars gets a little old in zvz what would zerg do in ZVT without the buffed mutas. Life showed that muta/bane is really the only viable option v terran as roach/hydra/viper gets owned by bio/mine with drops due. Muta is an issue as its one of the very few viable options zerg has in almost any matchup right now. Sorry, but you base your opinion on a few games. Life mostly just played ling/bling against opponents that were overreliant on mines. The metagame will shift a lot in the next few months. Just wait what the other topzergs will bring on. I mean, sure Life plays a ling/bling heavy style... but I wouldn't be surprised to see Symbol and RoRo bringing out the heavier guns - Ultralisks and roaches - or Curious showing how to turtle to Broodlord based compositions properly. For me - I believe that against MMMM ling/bling/Infestor is actually better than mutalisks if you are prepared to be dropped. Without a solid tank count, infestors still have the potential to rape MMM - and they rape minefields for sure.
The problem is "if you are prepared to be dropped"
With infestors you can't really stop drops, you chase after them while the terran expands to 4th and 5th.
Mutas can stop the drops and have the ability to counterattack after, I personally see mutas as a much better option.
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On March 31 2013 08:22 DooMDash wrote:
I really thought they'd bring the Reaver back and replace the colossus but I was wrong. Reaver + SC2 AI = 
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From watching Koreans only, these are the main problems I see with the game ATM
-Mines are not prioritized over marines/marauders (TvZ)
-Mines seem to dominate ling/bling/muta a bit too much (TvZ)
-Medivac boosts have no risk (TvZ & TvP)
-Mutalisks are basically the only viable option in ZvZ (ZvZ)
-Void Rays (PvZ)
I think these VERY MINOR changes could help out a ton:
1. Attack priority of Widow Mines increased so they are targeted before Marines/Marauders
2. SMALL nerf to the blast radius of the Widow Mine
3. Cooldown increase on the Medivac Boost Ability
4. Give the Corruptor bonus damage vs. Biological
5. Void Ray damage bonus vs. Corruptors removed
I think these changes would allow for the matchups to become even better!
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IMHO, the best way to balance ZvP right now is to make corruptors light. I don't really see a downside to this. If they're light, then void rays don't annihilate them, and corruptors are again a counter to mass Protoss air. Phoenix would slaughter them, but I don't really see how that would be a problem, as phoenix don't shoot down. Colossus/phoenix could be beaten by just making vipers and abducting the colossi, as phoenix don't do much dps to vipers. It would also simultaneously get rid of the abusive Zerg strategy of "50 mutas, 20 corruptors, 300 spine crawlers, base trade" that's coming back with a vengeance. Zerg has figured out that if you mix in some corruptors with your muta flock to deter phoenix it doesn't have a counter anymore, and we're back to 2010 where Zerg just makes nothing but mutas the whole game against Protoss.
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On March 29 2013 04:59 Stingart wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2013 04:50 Wombat_NI wrote:
Terrans have dicked on Protoss and Zergs in some of the only tournament-level play we've seen thus far.
The ladder isn't entirely irrelevant, but I'm sure the Kespa players especially do a lot of their practice in-house I saw Life (Zerg) destroying Flash (Terran) and taking the entire HoTS tournament, what were you watching?
I saw Life blindcountering a nonscouting Flash going for the same unit comp each match, and Life barely winning against Polt and Last in a nailbiting series.
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On March 31 2013 09:38 duct_TAPE wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2013 04:59 Stingart wrote:On March 29 2013 04:50 Wombat_NI wrote:
Terrans have dicked on Protoss and Zergs in some of the only tournament-level play we've seen thus far.
The ladder isn't entirely irrelevant, but I'm sure the Kespa players especially do a lot of their practice in-house I saw Life (Zerg) destroying Flash (Terran) and taking the entire HoTS tournament, what were you watching? I saw Life blindcountering a nonscouting Flash going for the same unit comp each match, and Life barely winning against Polt and Last in a nailbiting series.
So...what you're saying is...what exactly? I didn't really get anything from your post other than Zerg beating 3 bio/mine abusing players in 2 close series and 1 in dominating fashion.
What exactly is your perception of balance?
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On March 31 2013 09:43 TimENT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 09:38 duct_TAPE wrote:On March 29 2013 04:59 Stingart wrote:On March 29 2013 04:50 Wombat_NI wrote:
Terrans have dicked on Protoss and Zergs in some of the only tournament-level play we've seen thus far.
The ladder isn't entirely irrelevant, but I'm sure the Kespa players especially do a lot of their practice in-house I saw Life (Zerg) destroying Flash (Terran) and taking the entire HoTS tournament, what were you watching? I saw Life blindcountering a nonscouting Flash going for the same unit comp each match, and Life barely winning against Polt and Last in a nailbiting series. So...what you're saying is...what exactly? I didn't really get anything from your post other than Zerg beating 3 bio/mine abusing players in 2 close series and 1 in dominating fashion. What exactly is your perception of balance?
I'm responding to Stingart saying Life dominated Flash in the series, I'm explaining why he did.
Too early to tell what the balance is, I feel like HotS is at a pretty good place but I can see a few POTENTIAL problems; Ultra dmg/medivac speed/void ray dmg
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Northern Ireland23799 Posts
On March 31 2013 09:38 duct_TAPE wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2013 04:59 Stingart wrote:On March 29 2013 04:50 Wombat_NI wrote:
Terrans have dicked on Protoss and Zergs in some of the only tournament-level play we've seen thus far.
The ladder isn't entirely irrelevant, but I'm sure the Kespa players especially do a lot of their practice in-house I saw Life (Zerg) destroying Flash (Terran) and taking the entire HoTS tournament, what were you watching? I saw Life blindcountering a nonscouting Flash going for the same unit comp each match, and Life barely winning against Polt and Last in a nailbiting series.
At least with Polt, Polt has been playing HoTS for ages and clearly has a better grasp of it than most Terrans, he is one of the better HoTS players out there judging from his results in the game and I would imagine that Life has had a little less exclusive HoTS practice than Polt, thus far. Polt has crushed players like Creator who aren't exactly bad, Polt is a top-tier player at present, so 'barely' beating a top-tier player doesn't really mean that there's racial imbalance. It's not like Life has struggled to beat foreign Ts. Last is a great player, Flash is a great player, so Life beating them is testament to that it is doable.
I don't really get all the whining, I thought people wanted a bit of variety, some zoning devices, some more things that tax your multitasking etc, and the stuff that does people want to be fixed or made easier?
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EPT
