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On March 30 2013 18:39 Rossie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2013 11:57 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:
Are you kidding me? They turned Oracle from a mineral-forcefielder to a unit that massacres SCVS.
They gave Void Rays a huge damage boost. And mothership core speed is balanced, jesus you have a flying unit that can scout everything opponents do at 4:30 and your whining because it's slow? How is it in anyway frustrating? The simple fact of the matter is that, same in WoL, the hard counter to Protoss units by Terran is completely uncomplicated. Oracles harassing a mineral line is far easier to shut down than drops in the base. The counter to void rays is spamming marines -- the kind of thing that Terrans have been doing since the beginning of time. The mothership core is stopped by (you guessed it) a few marines. Maybe that is too difficult for you? On the other hand, Protoss have to go for complicated unit compositions to even stand a chance against Terran bio. Widow mines add yet a different layer of extremely taxing and strategically non-trivial precautions that Protoss have to take. It's almost as if Blizzard seems to think that Protoss is the race of highly intelligent nerds, Terran is the race of Modern Warfare jocks who can only understand the most blatant hard counters like "vikings against colossus" or "marines against almost everything".
The question is: Are there any other options for Terrans? The simple answer is that there are none.
The design philosophy of SC2 with its production speed boosts allows mass production of Marines. The design philosophy of SC2 requires massive numbers. The design of the Viking basically makes it useless against ground units, so it is rather bad against anything else after the air threat is eliminated. The design of the Thor is specialized against light air units only and really easy to abuse through magic boxing; it is also a ridiculously expensive unit which is not mass produced.
The Goliath would be a viable alternative to the Marine for anti-air, but we dont have that in SC2 and even the new single target fire mode of the Thor only deal roughly the same damage as ONE Goliath ...
The Wraith would be a crapton better than the Viking, because even though it has only a rather crappy attack against ground it actually can shoot ground units while flying and has a cloaking device, so it would not be a total waste of resources like the Viking. Banshees can cloak and shoot ground well, but they cant shoot air ... I would fire the designer of this unit personally if I was the general commanding a terran army.
So yeah, thanks Blizzard for your stupid design of units because you "had to" create new units and "had to" improve the game for mass battles ... its not the players fault, its the developers fault.
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On March 29 2013 20:55 Duncaaaaaan wrote:
I think people really need to learn to play the damn fucking game.
thats the main thing, alot people talk about balance are silver and worse and its frustrating listen to them talk about "balance"
post like THIS frustrate me so hard:
On March 30 2013 00:44 Rossie wrote:
It seems a broken game at the moment.
Every buff they gave Protoss or Zerg, they were uber-cautious about. "Oh no, maybe the mothership core will be too strong...let's give it the speed of a snail to compensate for its power by increasing the frustration level of Protoss players". "
Whereas with Terran, they go whole hog with widow mines and doom drops and throw caution to the wind.
Protoss is OP in PvZ. But that seems almost by accident and is more a question of old units from WoL reaching their full potential. On paper, the changes made to Protoss seems utterly piddling compared with widow mines, hellbats, improved medivacs, etc.
seems you know nothing about starcraft 2 and pvz ... jaeh the ultra lategame pvz can be broken beause voice are to strong, its same like infestor/broodlord was to strong and no one cared about 1000 tears of protoss players
so in 1 1/2 years protoss tryed to kill z before they got the "unbeatable" army, now the zerg does the same, it is right ? NO ofc the ultra late need a little bit of fix with the void but EXPECT the late, the matchup is perfect ... i just see all zergs stay to WOL build and wonder they die -_-
o watch "state of the game" with artosis/moonglate/theognis they talk PERFECT about the issues like they ARE and not like few guys wanna tell us they are
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In my Terran excursions (my main is Toss), I've noticed several things:
1) TvP is still the same old strategy of taking out the heavy hitters (Colossi and HTs). Mech is still bad.
2) Mines are so fun!
3) TvZ is meh. I lost a couple games because I took my eye off my army for a split-second, and a-move lings/blings pour in for the kill.
4) TvT: Widow mines add a nice dynamic for controlling space and seeing units move down certain passages.
Overall, at this time, I don't think I will stick with Terran. The rine/tank micro in TvZ is even tougher than it was in Brood War (where I mained Terran), and one little slip-up and you auto-lose. Not so much a balance issue as me needing to really up my micro and multitasking. I wish mech was good in TvZ though. The whole TvP dynamic of "kill the colossi or die" is still really annoying as well.
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On March 30 2013 19:16 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
In my Terran excursions (my main is Toss), I've noticed several things:
1) TvP is still the same old strategy of taking out the heavy hitters (Colossi and HTs). Mech is still bad.
2) Mines are so fun!
3) TvZ is meh. I lost a couple games because I took my eye off my army for a split-second, and a-move lings/blings pour in for the kill.
4) TvT: Widow mines add a nice dynamic for controlling space and seeing units move down certain passages.
Overall, at this time, I don't think I will stick with Terran. The rine/tank micro in TvZ is even tougher than it was in Brood War (where I mained Terran), and one little slip-up and you auto-lose. Not so much a balance issue as me needing to really up my micro and multitasking. I wish mech was good in TvZ though. The whole TvP dynamic of "kill the colossi or die" is still really annoying as well.
I'm honestly surprised colossi are still in game with their current form. Would have thought that a unit designed solely for death balls when spectators generally do not like watching deathball vs deathball action would have been taken care of sooner.
Worst part is its a core part of the protoss race and used practically every game.
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So much QQing... people lose one game and come to this thread, omg game is so IMBA.
I play in diamond league as terran, and so far I have seen games go both ways. People who have started using new units and strategies are prooving to be much dangerous opponents. Toss players using void rays are really difficult to deal with (not imbalanced IMHO). So are zerg players using vipers, really annoying... But to be honest it makes game more fun for me. I have been playing WOL for 2 years its gotten pretty boring.
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On March 30 2013 19:23 zbedlam wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2013 19:16 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
In my Terran excursions (my main is Toss), I've noticed several things:
1) TvP is still the same old strategy of taking out the heavy hitters (Colossi and HTs). Mech is still bad.
2) Mines are so fun!
3) TvZ is meh. I lost a couple games because I took my eye off my army for a split-second, and a-move lings/blings pour in for the kill.
4) TvT: Widow mines add a nice dynamic for controlling space and seeing units move down certain passages.
Overall, at this time, I don't think I will stick with Terran. The rine/tank micro in TvZ is even tougher than it was in Brood War (where I mained Terran), and one little slip-up and you auto-lose. Not so much a balance issue as me needing to really up my micro and multitasking. I wish mech was good in TvZ though. The whole TvP dynamic of "kill the colossi or die" is still really annoying as well.
I'm honestly surprised colossi are still in game with their current form. Would have thought that a unit designed solely for death balls when spectators generally do not like watching deathball vs deathball action would have been taken care of sooner. Worst part is its a core part of the protoss race and used practically every game.
They're not nearly as prevalent in PvZ or PvP thanks to the viper and void ray. Sadly though, in both matchups the colossus-based deathball seems to have been replaced by the void-based deathball.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
Once voids are nerfed Toss will be in a good place compared to WoL, here's hoping. Along with Collosus, the unit that I am most loath to produce.
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On March 30 2013 18:39 Rossie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2013 11:57 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:
Are you kidding me? They turned Oracle from a mineral-forcefielder to a unit that massacres SCVS.
They gave Void Rays a huge damage boost. And mothership core speed is balanced, jesus you have a flying unit that can scout everything opponents do at 4:30 and your whining because it's slow? How is it in anyway frustrating? The simple fact of the matter is that, same in WoL, the hard counter to Protoss units by Terran is completely uncomplicated. Oracles harassing a mineral line is far easier to shut down than drops in the base. The counter to void rays is spamming marines -- the kind of thing that Terrans have been doing since the beginning of time. The mothership core is stopped by (you guessed it) a few marines. Maybe that is too difficult for you? On the other hand, Protoss have to go for complicated unit compositions to even stand a chance against Terran bio. Widow mines add yet a different layer of extremely taxing and strategically non-trivial precautions that Protoss have to take. It's almost as if Blizzard seems to think that Protoss is the race of highly intelligent nerds, Terran is the race of Modern Warfare jocks who can only understand the most blatant hard counters like "vikings against colossus" or "marines against almost everything".
Lol at the modern warfare comment. Someone is having a bad day on ladder huh?
How is it "uncomplicated"? You can shut down speedvacs with a few stalkers just as easily, it's called splitting your army, something protosses like you seem completely incapable with doing. Your probably like one of these midmaster protosses I play on ladder where you watch the replay and when your medivacs unload in their base they don't notice/respond for ages. And yes, no one is going to die to a Mothership Core floating into their base on it's own because it needs to be balanced due to the extremely early nature of it's appearance. Seeing how we still see pro level Terrans losing to MsC and early gateway pressure(not even all-in) it's not a complete waste of space. You make it seem like it's so easy to deflect anything protoss can come at you with that I can tell it's your negative mindset that loses you games. You are stuck in a mindset of "he can stop me so easily" when you should realize that a good protoss will force the Terran into a disadvantage because unless if Terran is super, super diligent with scouting and a little bit lucky, they won't have any idea whether it's DT, oracle, 1 base immortal, blink stalker/msc, void rays, or 4 gate WP. You need to abuse the meta-game more by going for something that will tear apart Terrans who spend 400-600 minerals on anti-oracle turrets rather than doing what everyone else is doing...
Also I fail to see how the Protoss unit comp is complicated compared to Terran. All of WoL a Protoss build was so standard, either colossi>>>temp or temp<<<colossi, with a few gateway and immortal all-ins thrown in for fun. And in HOTS you see the same comps pretty much from P, zealot/staker/sentry/colossi/templar.....terran unit comp is marine/marauder/ghost/medivac/viking/mines.........so your argument is just beyond invalid....Your counter strategy is as simple if not more.
1. I see lot's of bio, let's go splash.
2. Get colossi.
3. Add templar eventually or die to vikings.
4. Do techswitches based on scouting what Terran invested in. Mass cannon.
Terran has to respond to that by building appropriate number of vikings and ghosts; if you get it wrong you straight up die. So frankly I don't know what all the whine is about, there's 1 million ways to die for everyone.
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Oracles are so game changing that I pretty much have to make an engineering bay early in order to be sure I actually have enough shit to stop it. Prior to stim, marines just do not cut it against an oracle. They're a really damn good unit - easily one of the best introduced this expansion.
If you're really struggling to deal with drops, why not dump some minerals into a static defense? There are going to be very few players here who literally never run a mineral surplus. 2 photon cannons properly positioned will pick off a medivac in 5 seconds. If you know a drop is coming, all you need is a stalker or two and that medivac is dead. Similarly if the guy is dropping like 2-3 medivacs in your mineral line, why aren't you dealing with it as a serious threat? That's something like 30 supply of units, man! That's a major damn investment.
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problem is there are several obvious units which are beyond broken, but are making for over 10x more exciting games, so blizzard is atm working on a way to tweak a few of these units to make them somewhat manageable, but keep the level of excitement produced atm. Patch wont be out as soon as it should be sadly...
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On March 31 2013 00:12 Msr wrote:
problem is there are several obvious units which are beyond broken, but are making for over 10x more exciting games, so blizzard is atm working on a way to tweak a few of these units to make them somewhat manageable, but keep the level of excitement produced atm. Patch wont be out as soon as it should be sadly...
Erm. I would say based on having played what, about 200ish games against a variety of different skill levels that there is probably one broken unit in the whole game (the void ray) which is down to an uninspired unit design. This will likely be changed.
Everything else is perfectly fine. Some units haven't even been explored yet. One or two things need tweaking but I wouldn't say medivacs are one of them. People became so used to being able to easily intercept medivacs that they hardly considered them a threat anymore. Now medivacs are a threat. Drops are a threat. It will take time for people to learn how to deal with them.
Give people time to adjust. If they can't adjust then they should rightly drop down a league because we do not play this game to be forgiving. Zerg in particular had it very easy dealing with everything in WoL with one unit and this was prevalent no matter what level of play you were at - infestors were absurdly powerful and some zerg are still getting used to playing without them. Protoss are getting used to the fact they can't just sit on 3 bases and max out on a deathball because drops will tear them apart long before then. They either have to be more aggressive or they have to defend better. Terran have their own problems - zerg have totally adjusted how they play now and in roach hydra they have an up front, extremely aggressive bulk unit strategy which is easy to play. They also have to deal with early game aggression from oracles and the mothership core as well as a variety of new all ins enabled by this. Not to mention TvT reaper aggression. If you die to these things (all of which are defendable) then you should adjust your play. Widow mine drops are defendable. Mass ultralisks are defendable. Skytoss is defendable.
Everyone has a lot of learning to do. Whining about balance in games where you haven't adjusted your play to deal with another players style is a waste of time. Infestors were OP - this was obvious because of the length of time we saw them dominate play and the manner in which they did it. We have yet to see an OP unit in HoTS yet besides the Warhound.
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Obviously there are no blatantly OP unit in HotS.
Voidray and Medivac Speed just need some tweaking.
Balance is similar all around.
The first balance patch will probably come after the 1st HotS GSL Season.
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On March 30 2013 19:03 Rabiator wrote:
So yeah, thanks Blizzard for your stupid design of units because you "had to" create new units and "had to" improve the game for mass battles ... its not the players fault, its the developers fault. It's the players' fault for whining about how hard their race is when it's by far the easiest and most OP race in HotS. Just as this was true for the first half of WoL.
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On March 30 2013 23:56 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:
How is it "uncomplicated"? You can shut down speedvacs with a few stalkers just as easily, it's called splitting your army, something protosses like you seem completely incapable with doing. Funny. Actually, EVERY Protoss player needs to learn to split army. Otherwise you will lose the game to a single drop.
It's Terran players who can't split army. That's why they whine about oracles, even though these units are less powerful than doom drops have been since forever.
I wouldn't expect the average Modern Warfare jock to understand that any more than I'd expect a dog to start talking.
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On March 31 2013 00:22 Evangelist wrote:
Everyone has a lot of learning to do. Whining about balance in games where you haven't adjusted your play to deal with another players style is a waste of time. Infestors were OP - this was obvious because of the length of time we saw them dominate play and the manner in which they did it. We have yet to see an OP unit in HoTS yet besides the Warhound. The widow mine is clearly way OP. A few clicks for the Terran and adds a wholly different layer of tactics for the Protoss and Zerg.
It's simply not right that Terran can have such a unit without one of the same category (of adding a new layer of tactics for your opponent) being conferred on the other two races. That's not what we're seeing.
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On March 31 2013 01:41 Rossie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2013 23:56 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:
How is it "uncomplicated"? You can shut down speedvacs with a few stalkers just as easily, it's called splitting your army, something protosses like you seem completely incapable with doing. Funny. Actually, EVERY Protoss player needs to learn to split army. Otherwise you will lose the game to a single drop. It's Terran players who can't split army. That's why they whine about oracles, even though these units are less powerful than doom drops have been since forever. I wouldn't expect the average Modern Warfare jock to understand that any more than I'd expect a dog to start talking.
Lol insult me more time? you do T I do P. See how you fare with "splitting your army". I bet you will just sit in a ball and die just like you do with Protoss, which is why you are here whining like a baby who spilt his milk. Or go for a doom drop, fail, and then I will laugh as you cry because you can't balance whine against your own race and contradict yourself.
PS. Oracles are less powerful than "doom drops" because an oracle is a 150/150 investment per unit requiring 250/150 of infrastructure. "Doom drops" imply 3+ medivacs which will be roughly 30 supply of MM in 3 medivacs. Assuming you have any decent math skills and an even split of marine/marauder that is (15x50+ 100x18)/(25x15+100x3)=???
And requires a lot more infrastructure.
I will ignore your blatant insulting nature just for the fact that it must suck to be so bad at a game you like so much. Try to practice rather than blaming your losseso n balance.
I didn't whine about oracles I said their ability to be left alone in the mineral line for 5 seconds and to kill every worker there was a bit too much. I never said I had trouble dealing with them, just I have seen so many pros on stream lose because while they are engaged in a fight 1 oracle goes into their mineral line at an expansion and completely disables it before they even notice. It's a very powerful unit which also has detection. kind of random if you ask me. I haven't died to an oracle outright since the first few games of HOTS.
Edit: Widow mine OP as Protoss? dude you must really suck. stalkers outrange it and you have detection on 2 of 3 of your techpaths. The only way you can kill a Protoss with mines is the terrible players who just A-move across the map without having an observer/without splitting their army. The only change I would make to mines is adjusting their priority to be equal to casters.
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On March 31 2013 01:50 Rossie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 00:22 Evangelist wrote:
Everyone has a lot of learning to do. Whining about balance in games where you haven't adjusted your play to deal with another players style is a waste of time. Infestors were OP - this was obvious because of the length of time we saw them dominate play and the manner in which they did it. We have yet to see an OP unit in HoTS yet besides the Warhound. The widow mine is clearly way OP. A few clicks for the Terran and adds a wholly different layer of tactics for the Protoss and Zerg. It's simply not right that Terran can have such a unit without one of the same category (of adding a new layer of tactics for your opponent) being conferred on the other two races. That's not what we're seeing.
Right and MSC and Vipers don't add additional layer of tactics? Clearly, this is just a post that doesn't actually add anything to the discussion.
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On March 31 2013 02:18 Nesserev wrote:
I just really hate how overpowered Terran is, yet they aren't doing anything about it.
The widow mine bug that makes them hit units standing at a range of 6, while its attack range is supposed to be 5, the massive AoE damage, etc. Just remove its AoE damage, and it would be fine. Such a cheap unit that has the ability to burrow, destroy mineral lines in less than the blink of an eye... playing against a terran is/never was fun, but now it definitely isn't.
Again, just like in WoL, Terran has a strat versus everything. The all-covering MMM has now become the even more overwhelming MMMM, Marine Marauder Mine Medivac... and it counters or evens out against every build the other player can do. That's not right :S
About protoss splitting his/her army against drops. Even if you split your army, the drops will be able to enter your base. You've got speedboosters, remember.
Um.... have you ever heard of zoning?
How is Terran overpowered in any way, shape or form.
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On March 31 2013 02:18 Nesserev wrote:
I just really hate how overpowered Terran is, yet they aren't doing anything about it.
The widow mine bug that makes them hit units standing at a range of 6, while its attack range is supposed to be 5, the massive AoE damage, etc. Just remove its AoE damage, and it would be fine. Such a cheap unit that has the ability to burrow, destroy mineral lines in less than the blink of an eye... playing against a terran is/never was fun, but now it definitely isn't.
Again, just like in WoL, Terran has a strat versus everything. The all-covering MMM has now become the even more overwhelming MMMM, Marine Marauder Mine Medivac... and it counters or evens out against every build the other player can do. That's not right :S
About protoss splitting his/her army against drops. Even if you split your army, the drops will be able to enter your base. You've got speedboosters, remember.
Have you heard of the Hots Protoss Help me thread? Visit that if you're having trouble with MMM. I can provide a starting tip, Collossus and HT tech helps in dealing with MMMM.
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