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On March 31 2013 02:18 Nesserev wrote:
I just really hate how overpowered Terran is, yet they aren't doing anything about it.
The widow mine bug that makes them hit units standing at a range of 6, while its attack range is supposed to be 5, the massive AoE damage, etc. Just remove its AoE damage, and it would be fine. Such a cheap unit that has the ability to burrow, destroy mineral lines in less than the blink of an eye... playing against a terran is/never was fun, but now it definitely isn't.
Again, just like in WoL, Terran has a strat versus everything. The all-covering MMM has now become the even more overwhelming MMMM, Marine Marauder Mine Medivac... and it counters or evens out against every build the other player can do. That's not right :S
About protoss splitting his/her army against drops. Even if you split your army, the drops will be able to enter your base. You've got speedboosters, remember.
I kind of feel like you don't understand terran macro. This is essentially how terran works(and has always worked, dare say it worked that way in BW too), you leave yourself vulnerble to nothing while being great against nothing so to say, it's your micro that pulls the battles into your favour. Terran simply can't reliably play the counter game, it takes to long. MMM works well until overwhelming amount of either colossi/hts, at which time you should've been slowly cranking out the counter units, so when the real battle happens you aren't screwed.
About 5 range, well I've not seen it yet, you sure your units just aren't pushing the front units into 5 range?
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On March 31 2013 02:39 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 02:18 Nesserev wrote:
I just really hate how overpowered Terran is, yet they aren't doing anything about it.
The widow mine bug that makes them hit units standing at a range of 6, while its attack range is supposed to be 5, the massive AoE damage, etc. Just remove its AoE damage, and it would be fine. Such a cheap unit that has the ability to burrow, destroy mineral lines in less than the blink of an eye... playing against a terran is/never was fun, but now it definitely isn't.
Again, just like in WoL, Terran has a strat versus everything. The all-covering MMM has now become the even more overwhelming MMMM, Marine Marauder Mine Medivac... and it counters or evens out against every build the other player can do. That's not right :S
About protoss splitting his/her army against drops. Even if you split your army, the drops will be able to enter your base. You've got speedboosters, remember. I kind of feel like you don't understand terran macro. This is essentially how terran works(and has always worked, dare say it worked that way in BW too), you leave yourself vulnerble to nothing while being great against nothing so to say, it's your micro that pulls the battles into your favour. Terran simply can't reliably play the counter game, it takes to long. MMM works well until overwhelming amount of either colossi/hts, at which time you should've been slowly cranking out the counter units, so when the real battle happens you aren't screwed. About 5 range, well I've not seen it yet, you sure your units just aren't pushing the front units into 5 range? If you a-move your 6-range units they won't always decelerate before they get within 5 range. If you target fire the mine they will always decelerate to shoot at maximum range, and it won't be a problem.
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On March 31 2013 02:25 Novacute wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 02:18 Nesserev wrote:
I just really hate how overpowered Terran is, yet they aren't doing anything about it.
The widow mine bug that makes them hit units standing at a range of 6, while its attack range is supposed to be 5, the massive AoE damage, etc. Just remove its AoE damage, and it would be fine. Such a cheap unit that has the ability to burrow, destroy mineral lines in less than the blink of an eye... playing against a terran is/never was fun, but now it definitely isn't.
Again, just like in WoL, Terran has a strat versus everything. The all-covering MMM has now become the even more overwhelming MMMM, Marine Marauder Mine Medivac... and it counters or evens out against every build the other player can do. That's not right :S
About protoss splitting his/her army against drops. Even if you split your army, the drops will be able to enter your base. You've got speedboosters, remember. Have you heard of the Hots Protoss Help me thread? Visit that if you're having trouble with MMM. I can provide a starting tip, Collossus and HT tech helps in dealing with MMMM.
In a straight up engagment Colossi/gateway or templar/gateway beats bio comps all day every day. It's a combination of unit attrition/economic damage and fine micromanagement on both sides that determine the winner. The problem is you get Protosses who lose 20-30 probes to drops and split their army in ways that just hinder them, then wonder why they get rolled over.
Also most Protosses(like the ones in this thread whining) are probably too garbage to realize that a Protoss on 3 base with colossi/temp tech, cannons everywhere and a ton of gateways should not lose to drops.
Feedback, cannons and infinite zealot warp-ins does wonders 
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On March 31 2013 02:18 Nesserev wrote:
I just really hate how overpowered Terran is, yet they aren't doing anything about it.
The widow mine bug that makes them hit units standing at a range of 6, while its attack range is supposed to be 5, the massive AoE damage, etc. Just remove its AoE damage, and it would be fine. Such a cheap unit that has the ability to burrow, destroy mineral lines in less than the blink of an eye... playing against a terran is/never was fun, but now it definitely isn't.
Again, just like in WoL, Terran has a strat versus everything. The all-covering MMM has now become the even more overwhelming MMMM, Marine Marauder Mine Medivac... and it counters or evens out against every build the other player can do. That's not right :S
About protoss splitting his/her army against drops. Even if you split your army, the drops will be able to enter your base. You've got speedboosters, remember.
March 31 2013 02:18 - I read the date right. I could swear it was 2010, this post almost fooled me. Have you been following the scene for the last 2 years? Have you heard of Parting, Squirtle, Hero?
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On March 31 2013 02:15 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:
PS. Oracles are less powerful than "doom drops" because an oracle is a 150/150 investment per unit requiring 250/150 of infrastructure. "Doom drops" imply 3+ medivacs which will be roughly 30 supply of MM in 3 medivacs. Assuming you have any decent math skills and an even split of marine/marauder that is (15x50+ 100x18)/(25x15+100x3)=???
And requires a lot more infrastructure. Oracles are clearly less powerful than doom drops. The hard counter to an oracle is a 100-mineral missile turret. That is how absurd this discussion is.
On March 31 2013 02:15 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:Edit: Widow mine OP as Protoss? dude you must really suck. stalkers outrange it and you have detection on 2 of 3 of your techpaths. The only way you can kill a Protoss with mines is the terrible players who just A-move across the map without having an observer/without splitting their army. The only change I would make to mines is adjusting their priority to be equal to casters. A-move across the map...you mean like Terran?
Oh, that's right. You have to press T as well, and maybe a few clicks with widow mines. Boo fucking hoo.
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On March 31 2013 03:12 Rossie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 02:15 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:
PS. Oracles are less powerful than "doom drops" because an oracle is a 150/150 investment per unit requiring 250/150 of infrastructure. "Doom drops" imply 3+ medivacs which will be roughly 30 supply of MM in 3 medivacs. Assuming you have any decent math skills and an even split of marine/marauder that is (15x50+ 100x18)/(25x15+100x3)=???
And requires a lot more infrastructure. Oracles are clearly less powerful than doom drops. The hard counter to an oracle is a 100-mineral missile turret. That is how absurd this discussion is. Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 02:15 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:Edit: Widow mine OP as Protoss? dude you must really suck. stalkers outrange it and you have detection on 2 of 3 of your techpaths. The only way you can kill a Protoss with mines is the terrible players who just A-move across the map without having an observer/without splitting their army. The only change I would make to mines is adjusting their priority to be equal to casters. A-move across the map...you mean like Terran? Oh, that's right. You have to press T as well, and maybe a few clicks with widow mines. Boo fucking hoo.
I only wish.
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On March 31 2013 03:12 Rossie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 02:15 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:
PS. Oracles are less powerful than "doom drops" because an oracle is a 150/150 investment per unit requiring 250/150 of infrastructure. "Doom drops" imply 3+ medivacs which will be roughly 30 supply of MM in 3 medivacs. Assuming you have any decent math skills and an even split of marine/marauder that is (15x50+ 100x18)/(25x15+100x3)=???
And requires a lot more infrastructure. Oracles are clearly less powerful than doom drops. The hard counter to an oracle is a 100-mineral missile turret. That is how absurd this discussion is. Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 02:15 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:Edit: Widow mine OP as Protoss? dude you must really suck. stalkers outrange it and you have detection on 2 of 3 of your techpaths. The only way you can kill a Protoss with mines is the terrible players who just A-move across the map without having an observer/without splitting their army. The only change I would make to mines is adjusting their priority to be equal to casters. A-move across the map...you mean like Terran? Oh, that's right. You have to press T as well, and maybe a few clicks with widow mines. Boo fucking hoo.
Actually on 2 base you are going to need about 400 minerals worth of turrets and to make sure they are perfectly positioned; either way you are going to lose stuff, whether it's marines or SCVS, against a skilled Oracle user. Turrets are certainly not a "hard counter", and definately not a singular one...not my fault you lack the basic micro and multitasking to do damage with oracles in multiple locations at once and to pull them back before they sustain hull damage. Let alone making the Terran build a bunch of turrets, then hit with big gateway/oracle aggression at the front, to draw SCVS out to the slaughter(this is one of the ways good Protoss use their Oracles). Try practicing more.
And the fact that you don't realize that 1. everyone technically "A Moves" across the map. It's about how you get there. Vs T I always stim about 5 marines and sent them ahead of my forces to locate widow mines so I can disable them losing 1 unit, then scan to kill them on the way through. Considering you have a ranged unit as part of your main army comp that outranges mines, as well as 2 forms of permanent detection, the fact that you lose to Widow Mines is pathetic.
In fact I applaud the game mechanic that punishes players who want to just run across the map willy-nilly, and every race has this ability in some way, shape or form.
Edit: Rossie in your last post you clearly compared the power of Oracles to the power of doom drops. When I showed you how stupid your argument was, you agreed with me. Thanks!
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On March 31 2013 00:34 FakeDeath wrote:
Obviously there are no blatantly OP unit in HotS.
Voidray and Medivac Speed just need some tweaking.
Balance is similar all around.
The first balance patch will probably come after the 1st HotS GSL Season.
This doesn't make sense. If nothing is obviously OP, then how can you tell it needs tweaking?
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would like to hear people's thoughts on early game TvP from both sides
a couple of things have changed that are making 1 rax FE very difficult for me as a terran and i'm starting to think that this build (korean 15 orbital 16 CC) will almost always make u behind from damage taken now.
in WOL the biggest threat as every terran knows from a 1 base protoss was the blink stalkers obs build, and on certain maps, the immortal all in. in hots, many things have changed including:
1. now they can use starting hallucination spell to fake immortal busts
2. proxy oracles can come so quickly that an ebay at 5 min is becoming standard...
3. all all ins they do now have timewarp mixed in, its really good to cast near the bunkers as you bust through, because the bio not in the bunkers takes longer to get into range and on most maps if you cast 2 timewarps, no matter what if terran tries to chase down the ramp, he cannot catch up because time warp covers the whole ramp. Add it to blink all in by casting it on terran's ramp and then by the time i'm back into my main base to defend, my stim has already been sniped and its GG.
4. dark templars now cost less so you can use that 100 gas to get a robotics, +1 upgrade whatever.
5. voidrays do bonus dmg vs bunkers and with their boost ability can shred it in seconds
so, if i see 2 gas from protoss, even if it's 2 probes in each gas, every game i feel forced to :
1. 1 bunker at least and it needs to be done at 5:00
2. have 4 marines in the main base for MSC poke, do not transfer scvs to natural because of zealot stalker + msc in the back poke
3. have two missile turrets by 5:30-5:45, one in each mineral line
4. add another missile turret at the front near my bunker for DTs/detect hallucinations
5. not ever leave my base before stim, +1 and 2 medivacs are about to finish
i find this really unfair, when my only viable harass tool now is speed drop mines, which are random in effectiveness against normal players, and ineffective against top level players. everything is beaten by the photon overcharge and adding just regular cannons to a small gate + collosus army
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On March 31 2013 02:42 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 31 2013 02:25 Novacute wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 02:18 Nesserev wrote:
I just really hate how overpowered Terran is, yet they aren't doing anything about it.
The widow mine bug that makes them hit units standing at a range of 6, while its attack range is supposed to be 5, the massive AoE damage, etc. Just remove its AoE damage, and it would be fine. Such a cheap unit that has the ability to burrow, destroy mineral lines in less than the blink of an eye... playing against a terran is/never was fun, but now it definitely isn't.
Again, just like in WoL, Terran has a strat versus everything. The all-covering MMM has now become the even more overwhelming MMMM, Marine Marauder Mine Medivac... and it counters or evens out against every build the other player can do. That's not right :S
About protoss splitting his/her army against drops. Even if you split your army, the drops will be able to enter your base. You've got speedboosters, remember. Have you heard of the Hots Protoss Help me thread? Visit that if you're having trouble with MMM. I can provide a starting tip, Collossus and HT tech helps in dealing with MMMM. In a straight up engagment Colossi/gateway or templar/gateway beats bio comps all day every day. It's a combination of unit attrition/economic damage and fine micromanagement on both sides that determine the winner. The problem is you get Protosses who lose 20-30 probes to drops and split their army in ways that just hinder them, then wonder why they get rolled over. Also most Protosses(like the ones in this thread whining) are probably too garbage to realize that a Protoss on 3 base with colossi/temp tech, cannons everywhere and a ton of gateways should not lose to drops. Feedback, cannons and infinite zealot warp-ins does wonders
This is bad advice. You do not want lots of cannons for drop defense. Cannons are bad at it and the investment puts you behind if they do not drop much. What you need as protoss is good map vision and awareness, good positioning of your army and mothership core and fast and reasonable reactions. Basically, you need to be more proactive in your drop defense.
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One thing I would like to see changed with protoss is that the Mothership Core becomes invicible when it is recalling. I'm fine with the fact that my army won't attack you and you can still attack. But getting the free dmg and then sniping the mothership core in the 2 seconds it takes to recall is kind of bs
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On March 31 2013 04:48 MysteryMeat1 wrote:
One thing I would like to see changed with protoss is that the Mothership Core becomes invicible when it is recalling. I'm fine with the fact that my army won't attack you and you can still attack. But getting the free dmg and then sniping the mothership core in the 2 seconds it takes to recall is kind of bs
As far as I know, (and I am pretty sure about this because a lot of people were whining about it, except if they fixed that), if MS Core start to recall, you can kill it and it will still recall all of your units? Can someone confirm it?
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On March 31 2013 04:27 hzflank wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 02:42 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 31 2013 02:25 Novacute wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 02:18 Nesserev wrote:
I just really hate how overpowered Terran is, yet they aren't doing anything about it.
The widow mine bug that makes them hit units standing at a range of 6, while its attack range is supposed to be 5, the massive AoE damage, etc. Just remove its AoE damage, and it would be fine. Such a cheap unit that has the ability to burrow, destroy mineral lines in less than the blink of an eye... playing against a terran is/never was fun, but now it definitely isn't.
Again, just like in WoL, Terran has a strat versus everything. The all-covering MMM has now become the even more overwhelming MMMM, Marine Marauder Mine Medivac... and it counters or evens out against every build the other player can do. That's not right :S
About protoss splitting his/her army against drops. Even if you split your army, the drops will be able to enter your base. You've got speedboosters, remember. Have you heard of the Hots Protoss Help me thread? Visit that if you're having trouble with MMM. I can provide a starting tip, Collossus and HT tech helps in dealing with MMMM. In a straight up engagment Colossi/gateway or templar/gateway beats bio comps all day every day. It's a combination of unit attrition/economic damage and fine micromanagement on both sides that determine the winner. The problem is you get Protosses who lose 20-30 probes to drops and split their army in ways that just hinder them, then wonder why they get rolled over. Also most Protosses(like the ones in this thread whining) are probably too garbage to realize that a Protoss on 3 base with colossi/temp tech, cannons everywhere and a ton of gateways should not lose to drops. Feedback, cannons and infinite zealot warp-ins does wonders This is bad advice. You do not want lots of cannons for drop defense. Cannons are bad at it and the investment puts you behind if they do not drop much. What you need as protoss is good map vision and awareness, good positioning of your army and mothership core and fast and reasonable reactions. Basically, you need to be more proactive in your drop defense.
On 3-base unless your at the absolute high level you should have the mineral float to be able to lay 2-3 cannons in critical positions, that combined with a high templar and possible warp-ins drastically reduces the effectivness of harassment drops. It's like saying for Zerg laying spines/spores to stop drops is bad advice, maybe for Code-S level opponents where every mineral counts, but likely the people reading your advice are the kind of people most likely floating 1-2k at this point in the game anyways, dropping 4 cannons is not going to put them behind by any real way. And any good terran WILL drop, it's just a matter of where. Better to block off access to your minerals with effective troop spreading/few cannons+ the possibility of nexus cannon, so that any damage is on outlier stuff that you can afford to lose(ie. pylons at perimeter, gateways etc)
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On March 31 2013 04:51 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 04:48 MysteryMeat1 wrote:
One thing I would like to see changed with protoss is that the Mothership Core becomes invicible when it is recalling. I'm fine with the fact that my army won't attack you and you can still attack. But getting the free dmg and then sniping the mothership core in the 2 seconds it takes to recall is kind of bs As far as I know, (and I am pretty sure about this because a lot of people were whining about it, except if they fixed that), if MS Core start to recall, you can kill it and it will still recall all of your units? Can someone confirm it?
I have had an experience with it a week ago as an experiment. A player was trying a MScore attack with blink stalkers within vision. I had blink stalkers in range and outnumbered the units at that point and he sees, so he blinks away and starts a recall.
My stalkers blinked in range to 1-shot the MScore and the units were stranded, the recall didn't happen and this was half-way through channel if not more.
[edit:misread original post]
I was actually very pleasantly surprised there was such a result. I am 100% on what happened though and it allowed me to win the game after catching his blink army.
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Northern Ireland25134 Posts
On March 31 2013 04:04 c0sm0naut wrote:
would like to hear people's thoughts on early game TvP from both sides
a couple of things have changed that are making 1 rax FE very difficult for me as a terran and i'm starting to think that this build (korean 15 orbital 16 CC) will almost always make u behind from damage taken now.
in WOL the biggest threat as every terran knows from a 1 base protoss was the blink stalkers obs build, and on certain maps, the immortal all in. in hots, many things have changed including:
1. now they can use starting hallucination spell to fake immortal busts
2. proxy oracles can come so quickly that an ebay at 5 min is becoming standard...
3. all all ins they do now have timewarp mixed in, its really good to cast near the bunkers as you bust through, because the bio not in the bunkers takes longer to get into range and on most maps if you cast 2 timewarps, no matter what if terran tries to chase down the ramp, he cannot catch up because time warp covers the whole ramp. Add it to blink all in by casting it on terran's ramp and then by the time i'm back into my main base to defend, my stim has already been sniped and its GG.
4. dark templars now cost less so you can use that 100 gas to get a robotics, +1 upgrade whatever.
5. voidrays do bonus dmg vs bunkers and with their boost ability can shred it in seconds
so, if i see 2 gas from protoss, even if it's 2 probes in each gas, every game i feel forced to :
1. 1 bunker at least and it needs to be done at 5:00
2. have 4 marines in the main base for MSC poke, do not transfer scvs to natural because of zealot stalker + msc in the back poke
3. have two missile turrets by 5:30-5:45, one in each mineral line
4. add another missile turret at the front near my bunker for DTs/detect hallucinations
5. not ever leave my base before stim, +1 and 2 medivacs are about to finish
i find this really unfair, when my only viable harass tool now is speed drop mines, which are random in effectiveness against normal players, and ineffective against top level players. everything is beaten by the photon overcharge and adding just regular cannons to a small gate + collosus army
As a Protoss who offraces T and is known as a real PvT 'expert' it's not too bad in standard v standard.
The problems, if indeed they are problems are thus, as I see it.
1. Protoss has a lot of silly allins that are hard to scout and require subtly different responses. I hate certain styles, especially all inning vs T because I just don't like gambling on hitting somebody unprepared. Protoss allins are so dangerous because they hit at the one time Protoss have real cost-efficient map control via stalkers. Perhaps reapers will be more commonplace solely as pylon/proxy hunters. Relying on hitting a money scan feels a bit flimsy. Great ability, I refer to it early game where you kind of need to mule more often to keep pace with Protoss chronoing probes.
2. Terran's mid game is outright stronger due to medivacs, and Terrans don't have to make a decision, they just are stronger. Certain maps make taking a third really hard, while T can in base with their third CC.
3. Neither are bad, not being able to use your WoL builds to the letter is GOOD. Protoss have to get better at splitting, and will, Terrans need to mix a few things up.
The amount of racially biased nonsense from people who can't accept culpability in their own losses is laughable, learn to play some of you. Experiment, enjoy the expansion! I haven't yet copied a build, or analysed replays, I'm trying to just enjoy the game, impose my play style more improvisationally. Protoss is a metric fuckton more satisfying to play than it was at the end of WoL. We don't have to face unkillable Bl/Infestor so stop bitching about medivacs which create a tough, but fair challenge.
I though SC catered to the kind of people who enjoy difficulty and finding solutions, posters here don't act like it.
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On March 31 2013 05:47 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 04:04 c0sm0naut wrote:
would like to hear people's thoughts on early game TvP from both sides
a couple of things have changed that are making 1 rax FE very difficult for me as a terran and i'm starting to think that this build (korean 15 orbital 16 CC) will almost always make u behind from damage taken now.
in WOL the biggest threat as every terran knows from a 1 base protoss was the blink stalkers obs build, and on certain maps, the immortal all in. in hots, many things have changed including:
1. now they can use starting hallucination spell to fake immortal busts
2. proxy oracles can come so quickly that an ebay at 5 min is becoming standard...
3. all all ins they do now have timewarp mixed in, its really good to cast near the bunkers as you bust through, because the bio not in the bunkers takes longer to get into range and on most maps if you cast 2 timewarps, no matter what if terran tries to chase down the ramp, he cannot catch up because time warp covers the whole ramp. Add it to blink all in by casting it on terran's ramp and then by the time i'm back into my main base to defend, my stim has already been sniped and its GG.
4. dark templars now cost less so you can use that 100 gas to get a robotics, +1 upgrade whatever.
5. voidrays do bonus dmg vs bunkers and with their boost ability can shred it in seconds
so, if i see 2 gas from protoss, even if it's 2 probes in each gas, every game i feel forced to :
1. 1 bunker at least and it needs to be done at 5:00
2. have 4 marines in the main base for MSC poke, do not transfer scvs to natural because of zealot stalker + msc in the back poke
3. have two missile turrets by 5:30-5:45, one in each mineral line
4. add another missile turret at the front near my bunker for DTs/detect hallucinations
5. not ever leave my base before stim, +1 and 2 medivacs are about to finish
i find this really unfair, when my only viable harass tool now is speed drop mines, which are random in effectiveness against normal players, and ineffective against top level players. everything is beaten by the photon overcharge and adding just regular cannons to a small gate + collosus army As a Protoss who offraces T and is known as a real PvT 'expert' it's not too bad in standard v standard. The problems, if indeed they are problems are thus, as I see it. 1. Protoss has a lot of silly allins that are hard to scout and require subtly different responses. I hate certain styles, especially all inning vs T because I just don't like gambling on hitting somebody unprepared. Protoss allins are so dangerous because they hit at the one time Protoss have real cost-efficient map control via stalkers. Perhaps reapers will be more commonplace solely as pylon/proxy hunters. Relying on hitting a money scan feels a bit flimsy. Great ability, I refer to it early game where you kind of need to mule more often to keep pace with Protoss chronoing probes. 2. Terran's mid game is outright stronger due to medivacs, and Terrans don't have to make a decision, they just are stronger. Certain maps make taking a third really hard, while T can in base with their third CC. 3. Neither are bad, not being able to use your WoL builds to the letter is GOOD. Protoss have to get better at splitting, and will, Terrans need to mix a few things up. The amount of racially biased nonsense from people who can't accept culpability in their own losses is laughable, learn to play some of you. Experiment, enjoy the expansion! I haven't yet copied a build, or analysed replays, I'm trying to just enjoy the game, impose my play style more improvisationally. Protoss is a metric fuckton more satisfying to play than it was at the end of WoL. We don't have to face unkillable Bl/Infestor so stop bitching about medivacs which create a tough, but fair challenge. I though SC catered to the kind of people who enjoy difficulty and finding solutions, posters here don't act like it.
if he is poking with that first stalker (very likely) you need that bunker by 5:00 or slightly sooner otherwise you lose too much mining time and unit HP to be able to deal with the potential follow up (blink, oracle).
if you watch HTOmario's TvP replays (available on TL since a couple weeks ago), he used to open standard 1 rax FE with a depot wall-off with a bunker behind it.
because of the nature of mario's style though, he uses the gas on reactor barracks -> factory and goes straight mech (or sky-terran if collosus build). If you're ever concerned about the effectiveness of mines.. they 1-shot stalkers and are very good against gateway-central builds. the're cost effective in nearly every way and force a robotics that would have otherwise been skipped early on.
I think 2 turrets per mineral line is overkill when you could be spending some of that money on earlier refineries -> mines for defence.
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On March 31 2013 02:42 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 02:25 Novacute wrote:On March 31 2013 02:18 Nesserev wrote:
I just really hate how overpowered Terran is, yet they aren't doing anything about it.
The widow mine bug that makes them hit units standing at a range of 6, while its attack range is supposed to be 5, the massive AoE damage, etc. Just remove its AoE damage, and it would be fine. Such a cheap unit that has the ability to burrow, destroy mineral lines in less than the blink of an eye... playing against a terran is/never was fun, but now it definitely isn't.
Again, just like in WoL, Terran has a strat versus everything. The all-covering MMM has now become the even more overwhelming MMMM, Marine Marauder Mine Medivac... and it counters or evens out against every build the other player can do. That's not right :S
About protoss splitting his/her army against drops. Even if you split your army, the drops will be able to enter your base. You've got speedboosters, remember. Have you heard of the Hots Protoss Help me thread? Visit that if you're having trouble with MMM. I can provide a starting tip, Collossus and HT tech helps in dealing with MMMM. In a straight up engagment Colossi/gateway or templar/gateway beats bio comps all day every day. It's a combination of unit attrition/economic damage and fine micromanagement on both sides that determine the winner. The problem is you get Protosses who lose 20-30 probes to drops and split their army in ways that just hinder them, then wonder why they get rolled over. Also most Protosses(like the ones in this thread whining) are probably too garbage to realize that a Protoss on 3 base with colossi/temp tech, cannons everywhere and a ton of gateways should not lose to drops. Feedback, cannons and infinite zealot warp-ins does wonders
So, after a few PvTs on the ladder I need to write down my thoughts. I'm currently in a weird spot where every pvt brings down my mmr so that I beat zergs and protoss really easy. This means that I'm currently 75% in pvp, 52% in pvz and 35% in pvt. I believe my pvt is about top plat while my pvz and pvp are around top dia (yada yada, I know I'm not supposed to have an opinion in balance issues because of my low level).
I always win against terrans playing terran like protoss (deathball, trying to attack right into my army) and I lose terribly against terran who drops all my mineral lines at the same time.
The main problem is, according to me, that drops were very good in WoL. It wasn't like "oh, he's going for a drop, that's probably not gonna work out :/" - they were still pretty strong. In HotS, they are heavily buffed. You can surprise your opponent (medivacs being in vision of obs shorter time due to boost, harder to see) and you can get out easier. This is while protoss hasn't really got any new ways to deal with it. Sure, you can drop a planetary nexus but that ain't gonna take down a drop.
I feel like Blizzard painted themselves into a corner. They can't nerf the medivac because, let's face it, it's damn fun to see kTerrans use the medivacs and destroy every opponent. I am not saying that it's unbeatable either, what bothers me is that terran basically got "Do what you did before, only, this time it will be stronger" while protoss got "You know the thing you lost against before? Yeah, it's harder to deal with now."
Should one balance the game around newbies like diamond players? Probably not, but if terran only starts losing at masters/grandmaster level we will have a major terran inflation in the lower leagues... I'm considering switching to terran myself.
I'm sorry if this came out "TERRAN IS SO IMBAAAA!", that was not my intention.
tl;dr What bothers me is that drops could win games in wol, they are now better in hots without giving protoss equally strong ways to deal with it.
EDIT: Oh, and the things I tested today was 2xPhoenix patrol mode, did not kill any of the two medivacs (they managed to load off all units in my base and kill phoenixes) and I also tried 1 cannon + 4 stalkers, did not survive (lost nexus).
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A few things both sides are missing here:
1. Missile turrets don't "counter" oracles. Yes, you can spend 400 minerals to protect your workers. The thing is, the oracles still shoot down and do 32 DPS to marines, and zealots can tank for them just like they tank for anything. Also, note that it takes about ten seconds for two oracles to kill a tech lab, and losing your stim research is game ending.
The main problem with oracles is you're playing Protoss with warpgates, which means you can't macro while harassing with them. Terran can micro their drops and continue to produce units just fine because all production can be done with hotkeys. I have lost at least a half dozen games after killing 20 SCVs with oracles because they just ran in and killed my ass due to floating 1200 minerals while harassing.
2. Photon cannons don't counter any kind of drop. I play at high masters, and pretty much 100% of Terrans open with a widow mine drop because it's virtually guaranteed to kill probes. The reaction time you have to run your probes away from the burrowing mine before it fires at them is miniscule, and even if you have a cannon in place the mine will burrow and fire before the cannon kills it. How often do you stare at the minimap? You don't get "your forces are under attack" until the mine fires. Even looking at the minimap every 5 seconds still gives Terran enough of a window to get the mine in there and kill 8 probes. Running your workers away is actually very dangerous because they clump when you run them and if the mine targets a straggler you're going to lose almost all of them.
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On March 31 2013 06:17 Xequecal wrote:
A few things both sides are missing here:
1. Missile turrets don't "counter" oracles. Yes, you can spend 400 minerals to protect your workers. The thing is, the oracles still shoot down and do 32 DPS to marines, and zealots can tank for them just like they tank for anything. Also, note that it takes about ten seconds for two oracles to kill a tech lab, and losing your stim research is game ending.
The main problem with oracles is you're playing Protoss with warpgates, which means you can't macro while harassing with them. Terran can micro their drops and continue to produce units just fine because all production can be done with hotkeys. I have lost at least a half dozen games after killing 20 SCVs with oracles because they just ran in and killed my ass due to floating 1200 minerals while harassing.
2. Photon cannons don't counter any kind of drop. I play at high masters, and pretty much 100% of Terrans open with a widow mine drop because it's virtually guaranteed to kill probes. The reaction time you have to run your probes away from the burrowing mine before it fires at them is miniscule, and even if you have a cannon in place the mine will burrow and fire before the cannon kills it. How often do you stare at the minimap? You don't get "your forces are under attack" until the mine fires. Even looking at the minimap every 5 seconds still gives Terran enough of a window to get the mine in there and kill 8 probes. Running your workers away is actually very dangerous because they clump when you run them and if the mine targets a straggler you're going to lose almost all of them.
You play high masters and only look at minimap that little? Maybe it's a by-product of being Terran and needing to watch for the enemy moving on your army constantly/watching for harasses but it's probably what I spend most of my time looking at.
Most high masters protoss I play end up moving their probes the second they see the medivac which is why I like to drop a mine on the edge of the base and run it to the ramp while he will be distracted by my medivac heading to his mineral line. because the natural reaction is to send ur workers to ur other mining base rather than just leaving them idle so your guaranteed to catch that train.
BTW I don't recommend cannons for early game drop defence, vs widows you should have either oracle envision or a obs by the time the drop comes, if you went DT or blink then your prob going to not be able to mine for a long time, might as well BitbyBit those probes... but when your nearing max taking bases a well-placed cannon/templar defence can shut down 1-2 medivac drops easily.
Do you think it would be a viable option to try switching your WG into normal gateways so that you can just rally units out normally? If your not planning to be offensive it seems like an easy way to reduce your need to look back at your base for warp-ins...
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Actually, the much more difficult problem is constantly having to look back at your base to morph each gateway to a warpgate as it finishes building, and then 10 seconds later click back again to build a unit out of it. One click back to warp in units wouldn't be that hard. This cannot be done with hotkeys very easily because if you have even one warpgate in the same selection group with gateways, the morph to warpgate option does not appear. You have to do this with every single gateway as it finishes building. Terran on the other hand can immediately hotkey under-construction barracks in the same group with all their other barracks, and make an addon or start making units out of that barracks when it completes, without ever looking at their base and with one hotkey only.
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EPT
