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On August 19 2011 05:18 galivet wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2011 05:10 Strike_ wrote:On August 19 2011 04:17 JustTray wrote:
I'd just like to say to whoever complained about Terran builds, all those builds are scoutable and identifiable within the first 1-2 mins of the game, usually on the first worker scout.
Gas first? Hellion potential banshee play
Rax first? Multi rax play possible tank play or expo
The follow ups can be specifically scouted in the 3rd or 4th minute. Nothing remotely game breaking about any of them except that most North American players, even in master, simply refuse to scout. Do you realize that, unlike terran, z and p need to react differently to every build you mentioned? Consider this situation: Your scouting worker was killed by a marine when you saw depot-barracks-refinery. He walls himself in with a second depot and patrols the perimeters of his base with a few marines, and if you scout the front you see a pair of marines shooting at your zergling and nothing else. Now what do you prepare for? Hellions? Blue flame hellions? Banshees? Marine/tank? Stim marine timing? Expansion? EACH of these require a different reaction so what do you do? Attack his front with in a manner sufficiently threatening to force him to reveal his tech/army, but that allows you to withdraw after he does so. Protoss has to do this same thing against terran as well in order to execute any opening that doesn't involve getting a robo before nexus. Just build some units, attack his front with something that two marines can't handle, and make him show his hand. There's no rule that says that zerg can only build drones, tech, queens, and static defense in the early game. Once example from PvT is opening 3 gate expand against a terran who walls his front just like you describe. P needs to find out very quickly if 2 port banshees are coming; if they are P needs to get a robo ASAP. So you take your initial units and attack his front. If he's built a banshee, he'll have to show it to defend your push.
and attacking so early like that is a coin flip because if you have an army threatening enough to warrant sending all your units to defend (NOT just zerglings, but mass ergling/bane, or mass roach), then you as zerg have spent the first 5 minute of a game NOT getting ahead in macro, will be repelled, and then have to play catch up to a terran's mule macro, while they just pump mass marines and come kill you now because you revealed that you have shit for eco.
There's a reason ZvT is called the coin flip MU. No half assed attack from zerg will force any reaction from terran other than two marines to fire at the zerglings hanging up on the wall in and just dying constantly while scvs repair. and those units cost eggs, which cost larvae, which, if you know anything at all about zerg, you need to spam drones constantly until the very moment an enemy moves on you early game, in order to stay equal in Eco and defend yourself, so taht you can get to mid-late game and go kill them.
There's already been a threat proving that 50/50 drone/army ratios out of larva is very bad for zerg eco compared to the other 2 races.
Zerg larva mass isnt an ADVANTAGE. its a NECESSITY.
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On August 16 2011 11:06 Jonas  wrote:Good read, and echoes my thoughts pretty exactly. You missed a couple of reasons why terran is OP, though. - Perfect Scouting: playing as Protoss or Zerg, there is a fairly long time in the early game where you do not have scouting. After your initial probe/ drone is chased out of your opponent's base, there is quite a while before you can get reliable scouting as Zerg and Protoss (hallucination or an observer, overlord speed/ overseer). Terran does not have that restriction because they can scan their opponent's main any time they are unsure of what they are doing and always respond correctly. - Units are way too versatile: With the same mix of units you can literally do everything. With Marines and Marauders with Siege Tank/Medivac support you can 1) have really strong defensive capacities. With marines and marauders inside of bunkers (which cost nothing and can be repaired), walling off (with buildings that can be lifted or lowered and repaired) and siege tanks which (when combined with a decent walloff) essentially prevent all forms of ground based aggression. 2) do really well in a straight up engagement. Marines and Marauders are the bread and butter unit that make the core of the terran army so powerful. When combined with Siege tanks which protect that bio from getting forcefielded or baneling'd to death and medivacs which provide a significant amount of aerial healing, the terran army can compete with the armies of the other races in a straight up fight 3) harass like no other. Terran bio is amazing in small engagements, and with the medivac's unique ability to simultaneously transport terran bio around to create those small engagements as well as heal units in those engagements. The possibilities of harass are really only limited by the terran player's APM 4) get really easy tech switches. Units that are good against your standard terran marine/marauder/medivac/tank composition are countered by units which ARE MADE OUT OF THE SAME BUILDINGS as the units that are in that standard composition. Ghosts are made out of the same building as marauders, and counter sentries, immortals, high templar, Brood Lords and infestors. While Vikings are made out of the same building as medivacs and counter Brood Lords and collosus (not to mention the fact that if you over produce vikings to deal with them you can always land said vikings to cover up that mistake) - Easy expanding: With protoss and zerg, if you choose when to expand wrong, your expansion dies and you fall super behind. With Terran you can lay down a command center somewhere safe, and then float it over when you know it is OK to do so. Or if you are wrong you can always lift up your CC (or OC) and repair it to have a chance of saving the expo.
The perfect scouting and easy expanding bit is a problem that I think Blizz should fix... I think it's just too huge an advantage for T. The unit thing harder... how to make Terran less flexible and P and Z more flexible? HotS is the only way it seems.
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United States7483 Posts
On August 19 2011 05:18 galivet wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2011 05:10 Strike_ wrote:On August 19 2011 04:17 JustTray wrote:
I'd just like to say to whoever complained about Terran builds, all those builds are scoutable and identifiable within the first 1-2 mins of the game, usually on the first worker scout.
Gas first? Hellion potential banshee play
Rax first? Multi rax play possible tank play or expo
The follow ups can be specifically scouted in the 3rd or 4th minute. Nothing remotely game breaking about any of them except that most North American players, even in master, simply refuse to scout. Do you realize that, unlike terran, z and p need to react differently to every build you mentioned? Consider this situation: Your scouting worker was killed by a marine when you saw depot-barracks-refinery. He walls himself in with a second depot and patrols the perimeters of his base with a few marines, and if you scout the front you see a pair of marines shooting at your zergling and nothing else. Now what do you prepare for? Hellions? Blue flame hellions? Banshees? Marine/tank? Stim marine timing? Expansion? EACH of these require a different reaction so what do you do? Attack his front with in a manner sufficiently threatening to force him to reveal his tech/army, but that allows you to withdraw after he does so. Protoss has to do this same thing against terran as well in order to execute any opening that doesn't involve getting a robo before nexus. Just build some units, attack his front with something that two marines can't handle, and make him show his hand. There's no rule that says that zerg can only build drones, tech, queens, and static defense in the early game. Once example from PvT is opening 3 gate expand against a terran who walls his front just like you describe. P needs to find out very quickly if 2 port banshees are coming; if they are P needs to get a robo ASAP. So you take your initial units and attack his front. If he's built a banshee, he'll have to show it to defend your push. If he's going 1-1-1 tank/banshee, he'll have to show a tank. Don't tell me that zerg can't be threatening early game and still compete economically; as protoss I face plenty of early ling/roach pressure against my walled-off front and zerg does just fine economically despite building a few attacking units early on.
Except that, if he has concussive shells (which researches very fast), you don't get to retreat, whatever you put at the front will die. I've seen terran players go 3 rax and just leave a couple marines at the front while hiding the rest of their troops to try to trick you into expecting a tech play. What do you do? Throw units at his front and then watch them die, so you don't have enough stuff to hold against his attack anyway? Guess a response and hope you guessed right? Throw down a shit ton of cannons and hope he attacks? Protoss units get demolished by bio unless you get great forcefields down, or you have AoE.
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I think at the highest levels the three races all have a few gimmicks and such that make them each hard to us (protoss units are impossible to micro, terran has to pay attention to multiple drops and fronts, and zerg has alot of position based play and seems to be kind of hard to scout with), but I think that the most glaring "underpowered" thing in the game for me is protoss harass. I just feel that deathballs are just too good for protoss because of how our units mesh together. From a design perspective, the protoss army seems like this jack of all trades superball, but in game you end up having to keep all your dudes together or they will be useless. Harass is nonexistent.
Example: Two stacks of marines and marauders can be independent, both have killing capacity. Meanwhile, take a stack of Sentries and a stack of stalkers. Those two groups are pretty shit by themselves, but become infinitely more powerful when together.
What this does for gameplay in SC2 is make protoss extremely easy to counterpush, harass, etc. We have no harass unit (yet) that has both speed, damage, and sustainability. Blink stalkers you say? We all know that starcraft 3 will probably be out before 4 stalkers kill a mineral line.
Warp prisms are mega awesome, but also a HUGE risk. I think that this is really the one unit that blizz should check out. If warp prism speed was a nexus upgrade like I've been suggesting since beta we could do cool Nonrange/range speed warp prism collosus doom drops on mineral lines and almost make a reaver effect. How cool would it be if you saw a fleet of phoenix and a warp prism flying around with a colossus in it? Reminds me of BW... WPs also have the worst health of any unit i've ever played in any RTS, they are so easily killed by vikings (which usually comes when ur OPP sees a robo).
I'm not saying protoss is hard to play or super underpowered, I just wish that I had a harass unit too instead of just turtling every game (similiar to how white-ra is winning tourneys right now just turtling up to deathball status)
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On August 19 2011 05:18 galivet wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2011 05:10 Strike_ wrote:On August 19 2011 04:17 JustTray wrote:
I'd just like to say to whoever complained about Terran builds, all those builds are scoutable and identifiable within the first 1-2 mins of the game, usually on the first worker scout.
Gas first? Hellion potential banshee play
Rax first? Multi rax play possible tank play or expo
The follow ups can be specifically scouted in the 3rd or 4th minute. Nothing remotely game breaking about any of them except that most North American players, even in master, simply refuse to scout. Do you realize that, unlike terran, z and p need to react differently to every build you mentioned? Consider this situation: Your scouting worker was killed by a marine when you saw depot-barracks-refinery. He walls himself in with a second depot and patrols the perimeters of his base with a few marines, and if you scout the front you see a pair of marines shooting at your zergling and nothing else. Now what do you prepare for? Hellions? Blue flame hellions? Banshees? Marine/tank? Stim marine timing? Expansion? EACH of these require a different reaction so what do you do? Attack his front with in a manner sufficiently threatening to force him to reveal his tech/army, but that allows you to withdraw after he does so. Protoss has to do this same thing against terran as well in order to execute any opening that doesn't involve getting a robo before nexus. Just build some units, attack his front with something that two marines can't handle, and make him show his hand. There's no rule that says that zerg can only build drones, tech, queens, and static defense in the early game. Once example from PvT is opening 3 gate expand against a terran who walls his front just like you describe. P needs to find out very quickly if 2 port banshees are coming; if they are P needs to get a robo ASAP. So you take your initial units and attack his front. If he's built a banshee, he'll have to show it to defend your push. If he's going 1-1-1 tank/banshee, he'll have to show a tank. Don't tell me that zerg can't be threatening early game and still compete economically; as protoss I face plenty of early ling/roach pressure against my walled-off front and zerg does just fine economically despite building a few attacking units early on.
You are wrong, a zerg has to pressure Terran with roaches, which will result in a few things.
1. They are doing a really risky build that abuses hellions. Free win.
2. He is playing standard. You are behind (ie, you are advocating that you should play from behind)
3. He got a banshee, your roaches are dead.
Either way, unless you are willing to play from behind in the majority of games, then this is the incorrect way to play.
You say that a 3 gate expand will force a 1/1/1 player to show a tank, but do you realise that your build cannot defend a well excecuted 1/1/1 push?
A zerg that is threatening early game and is still competing economically is a zerg that is completely outplaying you. If you defend any pressure from zerg with 0 losses, you are ahead. Do you realise how hard Zerg has to drone to outproduce Protoss chronoing probes. If you build half roaches half drones, Protoss will kill you with any 2 base timing because they will be ahead in workers and will have a more efficient army. If Zerg builds any less roaches, he hardly has an intimidating army and you can a move it.
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On August 19 2011 05:25 Blacklizard wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 11:06 Jonas wrote:On August 16 2011 09:54 TENTHST wrote:
*Huge Essay that I cut out* Good read, and echoes my thoughts pretty exactly. You missed a couple of reasons why terran is OP, though. - Perfect Scouting: playing as Protoss or Zerg, there is a fairly long time in the early game where you do not have scouting. After your initial probe/ drone is chased out of your opponent's base, there is quite a while before you can get reliable scouting as Zerg and Protoss (hallucination or an observer, overlord speed/ overseer). Terran does not have that restriction because they can scan their opponent's main any time they are unsure of what they are doing and always respond correctly. - Units are way too versatile: With the same mix of units you can literally do everything. With Marines and Marauders with Siege Tank/Medivac support you can 1) have really strong defensive capacities. With marines and marauders inside of bunkers (which cost nothing and can be repaired), walling off (with buildings that can be lifted or lowered and repaired) and siege tanks which (when combined with a decent walloff) essentially prevent all forms of ground based aggression. 2) do really well in a straight up engagement. Marines and Marauders are the bread and butter unit that make the core of the terran army so powerful. When combined with Siege tanks which protect that bio from getting forcefielded or baneling'd to death and medivacs which provide a significant amount of aerial healing, the terran army can compete with the armies of the other races in a straight up fight 3) harass like no other. Terran bio is amazing in small engagements, and with the medivac's unique ability to simultaneously transport terran bio around to create those small engagements as well as heal units in those engagements. The possibilities of harass are really only limited by the terran player's APM 4) get really easy tech switches. Units that are good against your standard terran marine/marauder/medivac/tank composition are countered by units which ARE MADE OUT OF THE SAME BUILDINGS as the units that are in that standard composition. Ghosts are made out of the same building as marauders, and counter sentries, immortals, high templar, Brood Lords and infestors. While Vikings are made out of the same building as medivacs and counter Brood Lords and collosus (not to mention the fact that if you over produce vikings to deal with them you can always land said vikings to cover up that mistake) - Easy expanding: With protoss and zerg, if you choose when to expand wrong, your expansion dies and you fall super behind. With Terran you can lay down a command center somewhere safe, and then float it over when you know it is OK to do so. Or if you are wrong you can always lift up your CC (or OC) and repair it to have a chance of saving the expo. The perfect scouting and easy expanding bit is a problem that I think Blizz should fix... I think it's just too huge an advantage for T. The unit thing harder... how to make Terran less flexible and P and Z more flexible? HotS is the only way it seems.
so you're saying they're leaving the game poorly balanced to ensure people buy HoTS to fix it, eh?
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On August 19 2011 04:05 Bagi wrote:
I can't believe you are saying this with a straight face.
Lets say you have 20 gateways as toss, your lategame army gets destroyed so you need to remake units as quickly as possible. You instantly remake 20 units of your choice, chronoboost all your gateways and make another round of units. In the time that it takes to make 1 round of marauders, you get 2 rounds of units. Barracks units are strong but twice as strong as gateway units? Hardly.
Saying that you can only warp in zealot/stalker/sentry is just plain wrong. Imagine you warp in 10 templar and 10 zealots on the first round, and then 20 stalkers on the next. You make archons out of the templars and you'll have 10 zealot, 20 stalker and 5 archons in little more than half a minute. How can you say terran can replenish as effectively, not to even mention better? Because of the nature of warpgates, protoss will always have 1 extra round of units.
Then you can also throw in instantly 2-3 dark templar to possibly do damage if the terran neglects his detection. You can also chrono out colossi faster than terran can produce vikings... Do I need to go on?
Wow, someone needs to re-evaluate their understanding of game mechanics. What match-ups are you playing where your Protoss opponent not only has 20 warpgates built (a very expensive investment), but also has a big enough stockpile of gas and minerals to build an approx. 100 food army that fast? This would only be a concern to the most turtled of players, and frankly, they'd have brought it on themselves...
Ever heard of map control? Yeah, it's a pretty big deal, and it's exactly why this scenario doesn't play out like that.
Also, "terran neglects his detection" really gave me a hearty laugh. How many terran lategames have you seen WITHOUT, like, 4 orbital commands?
Sidenote: pretty sure the whole "terran buildings can addon reactors" makes your army speed-building point moot regardless...
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does anyone has any idea how to deal with a 15+gateway protoss late game?
with bio or mech you will never have enough of a cost effective army (considering both players have similar economy and tech) to win the battle so one-sided that you can deal with warp ins and backup ht's.
apart from that i think the game is pretty balanced (BL infestor kinda strong but its to early to tell imo)
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ITT: players blaming balance issues and believing they understand balance, when at least one of the following is true:
-They play only one race (maybe tried one of the other races and believe its OP after winning one game)
-Are not even masters+ (or they believe because they are a 300 pt masters they understand)
-Have crappy mechanics
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I thought of something the other day ... gassless mass production.
Bear with me .. (This is an overt troll-rage about Toss and Zerg being imba imba, but I think it is a worthy observation. I'm not trying to wear an veils here.)
Terran
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There is only one production structure that does not require gas, and that is the Barracks. Tech-labs are required to build the high-tech rax units. The tech-lab is not a research, it is a production add-on, so the only truly gassless production building unit is the marine.
The helion does not cost gas, but the factories, tech labs, and the reactors do.
Protoss
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Gateways (the transform into Warpgate is free after one-time research) cost no gas. You can MASS produce Gateways for minerals only and this ultimately leads to mass production of a really nice tech-tree: Zealot, Sentry, Stalker, Dark Templar, High Templar, Archon. Sure you need one-time tech buildings that require gas, but there is no per-gateway gas requisite.
Couple this with the fact that Warpgates skip two production cycles, and you have a supremely potent situation. The two production cycles that are skipped: (1) As soon as the WG Finishes, and (2) At max. While maxed, all the WG's cooldown. The moment supply is available you have insta-units with the potential for proxy. Then couple that with late-game chrono surplus and you have double-time proxy production potential. OUCH! 25 mules on a Gold base doesn't really matter if a big counter attack kills you because you both just traded.
Zerg
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Hatches and Queens do not cost gas and they can produce every unit in the Zerg arsenal with the exception of the two morphs. Once the one-time tech-building is constructed, it's gassless mass-production from there.
CONCLUSION
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This is really just an observation at a pretty basic level, but one that may not be extremely apparent. Warpgates, Hatches, and Queens (to a lesser extent) are ridiculously good production mineral dumps, whereas Terran can build the Barracks. Which without an additional add-on build-time, and gas, for each building, can only produce Marines. Even with tech labs and reactors, all you're really building is a Marine, Marauder, Ghost army which is not nearly as viable as the Toss's Templar tech or the Zerg's entire tech-tree. The only reason I say that is because Starport tech is actually required for Barracks play to be viable because of Stim.
My goal is not to make any suggestions, but just to bring this interesting observation into the discussion.
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On August 19 2011 04:37 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2011 04:20 DragonDefonce wrote:On August 19 2011 04:05 Bagi wrote:On August 19 2011 03:16 DragonDefonce wrote:On August 19 2011 02:56 Bagi wrote:
You might wanna elaborate on that third point. How is a protoss with 20+ warpgates dead but the terran isnt? How are high templars slower to replenish than for example ghosts?
200/200 mech doesn't always beat a proper 200/200 protoss army either. It doesn't have the OP status, and neither should protoss. Barracks units > gateway units, much more so in a defensive position for obvious reasons. 20 zealots wont break through 10 marauders in a defensive position. Ghosts, while they do ridiculous damage to shield, are not needed if their are no hts capable of using storm. If HTs had amulet I would say you have a point. Honestly man, you should not have a problem with what i said unless you think zealot stalker sentry beats MM. With regards to terran mech, protoss can fight even, not win, it in a straght up fight if it has a good number of well upgraded carriers, which takes just as much time to get as a terran mech army. Otherwise, the only thing that protoss can do is hit and run and not let terran max out. I can't believe you are saying this with a straight face. Lets say you have 20 gateways as toss, your lategame army gets destroyed so you need to remake units as quickly as possible. You instantly remake 20 units of your choice, chronoboost all your gateways and make another round of units. In the time that it takes to make 1 round of marauders, you get 2 rounds of units. Barracks units are strong but twice as strong as gateway units? Hardly. Saying that you can only warp in zealot/stalker/sentry is just plain wrong. Imagine you warp in 10 templar and 10 zealots on the first round, and then 20 stalkers on the next. You make archons out of the templars and you'll have 10 zealot, 20 stalker and 5 archons in little more than half a minute. How can you say terran can replenish as fast, not to even mention better? Then you can also throw in instantly 2-3 dark templar to possibly do damage if the terran neglects his detection. You can also chrono out colossi faster than terran can produce vikings... Do I need to go on? Marauder build time: 30 Marine build time: 25/2 Viking build time: 42/2 Zealot build time: 28+5 Stalker build time: 32+5 Archon build time: 45+5+10 Colossus build time: 75 20 gate vs 15 rax How is terran behind with these? Cause protoss has infinite chronoboosts? DT's? Cause terran doesnt save up scans lategame? And you know, protoss saves up 3k gas to make archons right? Cause it takes "little more than half a minute" to get 10 zealot 20 stalker and 5 archons? The best you can do is 32+15=47 seconds for that army. Considering proxy pylon in the middle of the map so 10~15 sec travel time thats full minute. Two full rounds of maraunders and two rounds of reactor marines and then some. Chronoboosted templars are ~37sec, so its 42 sec if you chrono the gateways that were used for templars on the first round and then whatever you want on the 2nd. I'm not even assuming you chronoboost every single gateway, you could get even more benefit that way. You can let the templars get energy, they'll have enough for a storm in 40 seconds or so. In 42 seconds terran with 15 rax has 15 marauders in his base - protoss has 10 zealot 20 stalker 5 archons anywhere with a pylon. This travel time is also misleading, terran has the same disadvantage except they can't even proxy. Might as well double the travel time when protoss is a defensive position... Oh wait, you were arguing that terran have it better here? I'm so confused...
I don't understand why you are having trouble believing that the terran bio is much stronger than any non-deathball(ht+colossus 200) protoss army, and why you think its easier for protoss to rebuild the deathball than for terran to build up their MMM. The whole warping 4kmin 4kgas army in 47 seconds in itself is a moot point cause protoss warps in during battles, and even when we do so, the fights usually come out even if both play at similar levels. Moreover terran also starts producing the instant food frees up so its not like "oh my whole army is dead, lets start making more"
Deathball is hard to rebuild but MMM w/ viking and ghost is easier to rebuild, but bio ball can fight protoss deathball in equal footing in the current state. Thus, it must be so that with equal skill, protoss can come out marginally ahead. Not by 20 zealots and 5 colossus, marginally. This should be the case especially since protoss army cant run if its an unfavorable engagement.
Do you believe that the current state of the game is so that protoss, which their additional warpins in battle always comes out on top? If so, then you and I disagree in that I believe terran has just as much chance to win a 200 fight.
If you do not believe that protoss always comes out on top, then I would like you to explain the bolded parts.
And dont give me bullshit about micro and whatnot. Obviously I'm talking about both parties doing competent controll.
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People must not understand what it means to do an aggressive poke. It doesn't mean throwing all your units into a meat-grinder, and there's no reason that it would require roaches instead of a few zerglings. You're far from all-in aggressive if you put enough lings at a terran's wall to force him to show more than two marines. I beat 1-1-1 with 3 gate expand, and I certainly don't lose my whole army to concussive shells if I do a quick poke at a terran's ramp with some early gateway units.
This thread really is a trash-bin and it underscores the point that none but the opinions of the highest-tier players should be taken seriously in a balance discussion. Anyone whining about how it's impossible to apply pressure to determine your opponent's composition/tech without throwing away your whole army or sacrificing all of your economy can't possibly understand the game well enough to have a useful thought about game balance.
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On August 19 2011 05:39 Rob28 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2011 04:05 Bagi wrote:
I can't believe you are saying this with a straight face.
Lets say you have 20 gateways as toss, your lategame army gets destroyed so you need to remake units as quickly as possible. You instantly remake 20 units of your choice, chronoboost all your gateways and make another round of units. In the time that it takes to make 1 round of marauders, you get 2 rounds of units. Barracks units are strong but twice as strong as gateway units? Hardly.
Saying that you can only warp in zealot/stalker/sentry is just plain wrong. Imagine you warp in 10 templar and 10 zealots on the first round, and then 20 stalkers on the next. You make archons out of the templars and you'll have 10 zealot, 20 stalker and 5 archons in little more than half a minute. How can you say terran can replenish as effectively, not to even mention better? Because of the nature of warpgates, protoss will always have 1 extra round of units.
Then you can also throw in instantly 2-3 dark templar to possibly do damage if the terran neglects his detection. You can also chrono out colossi faster than terran can produce vikings... Do I need to go on? Wow, someone needs to re-evaluate their understanding of game mechanics. What match-ups are you playing where your Protoss opponent not only has 20 warpgates built (a very expensive investment), but also has a big enough stockpile of gas and minerals to build an approx. 100 food army that fast? This would only be a concern to the most turtled of players, and frankly, they'd have brought it on themselves... Ever heard of map control? Yeah, it's a pretty big deal, and it's exactly why this scenario doesn't play out like that. Also, "terran neglects his detection" really gave me a hearty laugh. How many terran lategames have you seen WITHOUT, like, 4 orbital commands? Sidenote: pretty sure the whole "terran buildings can addon reactors" makes your army speed-building point moot regardless...
Just today Mana had 20+ warpgates against Puma, and rolled because he had the resources and infrastructure to remax much faster. Its not unusual at all for protoss to get that many on maps like Taldarim.
Map control? It was a hypothetical situation where resources and the number bases were irrelevant. My only point that given the resources, protoss can remax more effective than terran can. It was a reply to the guy who said terran losing his army means terran can remax, but protoss losing his army would mean they cannot rebuild fast enough - which is completely irrational considering how effective warpgates and chronoboost are when you need to rebuild.
You'd be surprised how often terrans have to pull back at least for a few moments because DT's are threatening their army. They only really become irrelevant if the terran starts making macro orbitals in the extreme lategame.
Reactors only work for marines, as a terran your bread and butter unit is the marauder.
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On August 19 2011 05:45 TimeSpiral wrote:
This is really just an observation at a pretty basic level, but one that may not be extremely apparent. Warpgates, Hatches, and Queens (to a lesser extent) are ridiculously good production mineral dumps, whereas Terran can build the Barracks
And hellions.
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On August 19 2011 05:46 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2011 05:39 Rob28 wrote:On August 19 2011 04:05 Bagi wrote:
I can't believe you are saying this with a straight face.
Lets say you have 20 gateways as toss, your lategame army gets destroyed so you need to remake units as quickly as possible. You instantly remake 20 units of your choice, chronoboost all your gateways and make another round of units. In the time that it takes to make 1 round of marauders, you get 2 rounds of units. Barracks units are strong but twice as strong as gateway units? Hardly.
Saying that you can only warp in zealot/stalker/sentry is just plain wrong. Imagine you warp in 10 templar and 10 zealots on the first round, and then 20 stalkers on the next. You make archons out of the templars and you'll have 10 zealot, 20 stalker and 5 archons in little more than half a minute. How can you say terran can replenish as effectively, not to even mention better? Because of the nature of warpgates, protoss will always have 1 extra round of units.
Then you can also throw in instantly 2-3 dark templar to possibly do damage if the terran neglects his detection. You can also chrono out colossi faster than terran can produce vikings... Do I need to go on? Wow, someone needs to re-evaluate their understanding of game mechanics. What match-ups are you playing where your Protoss opponent not only has 20 warpgates built (a very expensive investment), but also has a big enough stockpile of gas and minerals to build an approx. 100 food army that fast? This would only be a concern to the most turtled of players, and frankly, they'd have brought it on themselves... Ever heard of map control? Yeah, it's a pretty big deal, and it's exactly why this scenario doesn't play out like that. Also, "terran neglects his detection" really gave me a hearty laugh. How many terran lategames have you seen WITHOUT, like, 4 orbital commands? Sidenote: pretty sure the whole "terran buildings can addon reactors" makes your army speed-building point moot regardless... Just today Mana had 20+ warpgates against Puma, and rolled because he had the resources and infrastructure to remax much faster. Its not unusual at all for protoss to get that many on maps like Taldarim. Map control? It was a hypothetical situation where resources and the number bases were irrelevant. My only point that given the resources, protoss can remax more effective than terran can. It was a reply to the guy who said terran losing his army means terran can remax, but protoss losing his army would mean they cannot rebuild fast enough - which is completely irrational considering how effective warpgates and chronoboost are when you need to rebuild. You'd be surprised how often terrans have to pull back at least for a few moments because DT's are threatening their army. They only really become irrelevant if the terran starts making macro orbitals in the extreme lategame. Reactors only work for marines, as a terran your bread and butter unit is the marauder.
And youd be surprised how many times terrans uses two or less scans to cross the entire map when protoss goes dts to buy time and just outright kill. And why the hell would you constantly mule lategame when you have all the scv's you need?
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On August 19 2011 05:49 galivet wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2011 05:45 TimeSpiral wrote:
This is really just an observation at a pretty basic level, but one that may not be extremely apparent. Warpgates, Hatches, and Queens (to a lesser extent) are ridiculously good production mineral dumps, whereas Terran can build the Barracks And hellions.
You need gas for factories, and that limits hellion production quite a bit. It certainly is one of those areas I think that hasnt been explored fully in tvp. In tvz, theres no reason to get hellions because marines are oh so good.
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You suicide SCVs and subsist on mules to have a bigger maximum army than the protoss without sacrificing your ability to remax roughly as fast.
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On August 19 2011 04:05 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2011 03:16 DragonDefonce wrote:On August 19 2011 02:56 Bagi wrote:
You might wanna elaborate on that third point. How is a protoss with 20+ warpgates dead but the terran isnt? How are high templars slower to replenish than for example ghosts?
200/200 mech doesn't always beat a proper 200/200 protoss army either. It doesn't have the OP status, and neither should protoss. Barracks units > gateway units, much more so in a defensive position for obvious reasons. 20 zealots wont break through 10 marauders in a defensive position. Ghosts, while they do ridiculous damage to shield, are not needed if their are no hts capable of using storm. If HTs had amulet I would say you have a point. Honestly man, you should not have a problem with what i said unless you think zealot stalker sentry beats MM. With regards to terran mech, protoss can fight even, not win, it in a straght up fight if it has a good number of well upgraded carriers, which takes just as much time to get as a terran mech army. Otherwise, the only thing that protoss can do is hit and run and not let terran max out. I can't believe you are saying this with a straight face. Lets say you have 20 gateways as toss, your lategame army gets destroyed so you need to remake units as quickly as possible. You instantly remake 20 units of your choice, chronoboost all your gateways and make another round of units. In the time that it takes to make 1 round of marauders, you get 2 rounds of units. Barracks units are strong but twice as strong as gateway units? Hardly. Saying that you can only warp in zealot/stalker/sentry is just plain wrong. Imagine you warp in 10 templar and 10 zealots on the first round, and then 20 stalkers on the next. You make archons out of the templars and you'll have 10 zealot, 20 stalker and 5 archons in little more than half a minute. How can you say terran can replenish as effectively, not to even mention better? Because of the nature of warpgates, protoss will always have 1 extra round of units. Then you can also throw in instantly 2-3 dark templar to possibly do damage if the terran neglects his detection. You can also chrono out colossi faster than terran can produce vikings... Do I need to go on?
Reactored Vikings are about even with Chrono boosted Colossi.
Barracks vs Warp Gates you can easily queue up your Barracks units after hitting 200/200 since what else will you spend it on. That allows you to recap as soon as a unit dies and then you can rally to where ever you want to go. Toss players have to wait till few units die so they can do a batch Warp because piecemeal unit making wastes time. Add to that the lost time in a Warp Gate cycle can't be made up and even at the tip top level pros have wasted Gate time.
Terrans you actually get the opportunity to buffer build times by queueing up units. Not only that but Hotkey ->AAAMMM can be done quickly while focusing on the battle. Toss has to warp in units at a pylon, often a ways off from the actual fight.
And no I don't think Terran's imba but that hopefully illustrates how both races can sound behind the curve when one focuses on the disadvantages.
Both races can do things to force the opponents army back. While DT's may scare the crap out of a Terran, a single Medivac or 2 can do significant damage in a short amount of time. In both cases they tend to punish a lapse in attention or sloppy play quite harshly.
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On August 19 2011 05:46 DragonDefonce wrote:
terran bio is much stronger than any non-deathball(ht+colossus 200) protoss army
I never disputed that terran bio is better than terran gateway army without HT/archon/colossi. However, protoss can compensate this by rebuilding shit much faster. Imagine if terran would build units as they do, AND they were weaker as well? How could terran stand a chance, ever?
and why you think its easier for protoss to rebuild the deathball than for terran to build up their MMM.
I never said its "easier", just faster. Which it is. Easier has a thousand other implications which I'd rather not delve into.
Deathball is hard to rebuild but MMM w/ viking and ghost is easier to rebuild, but bio ball can fight protoss deathball in equal footing in the current state. Thus, it must be so that with equal skill, protoss can come out marginally ahead. Not by 20 zealots and 5 colossus, marginally. This should be the case especially since protoss army cant run if its an unfavorable engagement.
Have you ever heard of defensive storms? A bioball cannot charge blindly into storms, its called controlling space. The protoss army can run away just fine, unless you completely mess up and let all your sentries (FF) and templars (storms) get EMP'd. Completely messing up means you deserve to lose.
Do you believe that the current state of the game is so that protoss, which their additional warpins in battle always comes out on top? If so, then you and I disagree in that I believe terran has just as much chance to win a 200 fight.
No, I say that a protoss is just as efficient at remaxing their army and the outcome will always depend on player skill. Protoss cannot get their "money" units out very fast, but the fact that they can just spit out shit faster means that terran and protoss are pretty equal in the lategame. Especially with archons being so good and fast to build now, you frequently see protoss players build them as quick reinforcements.
What YOU said however, is that a protoss loses when their army dies, whereas a terran losing their army means they can just bebuild. That my friend, is pure bullshit, and the only point I am arguing here.
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On August 19 2011 05:45 SniXSniPe wrote:
ITT: players blaming balance issues and believing they understand balance, when at least one of the following is true:
-They play only one race (maybe tried one of the other races and believe its OP after winning one game)
-Are not even masters+ (or they believe because they are a 300 pt masters they understand)
-Have crappy mechanics
and yet you have managed to make a post that contributes less then all of them, nobody asked you to come post in this thread, please take it elsewhere.
believe it or not, the primary thing holding most players back is mechanics, not game understanding. There are a LOT of people in this thread that I'll agree need to take a broader look at the game as a whole when discussing balance, but the reason behind this thread being made is to condense all of the balance discussion into one place. I fail then to see why you felt it needed to come in and complain that only pros should talk about balance...
I think protoss have an imposed over-reliance on the stalker, and would benefit greatly from the stalker taking on a more harass based role, while the immortal or another new unit took on the 'meat of the army' role that stalkers are forced into right now.
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EPT
