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On August 19 2011 05:46 galivet wrote:
People must not understand what it means to do an aggressive poke. It doesn't mean throwing all your units into a meat-grinder, and there's no reason that it would require roaches instead of a few zerglings. You're far from all-in aggressive if you put enough lings at a terran's wall to force him to show more than two marines. I beat 1-1-1 with 3 gate expand, and I certainly don't lose my whole army to concussive shells if I do a quick poke at a terran's ramp with some early gateway units.
This thread really is a trash-bin and it underscores the point that none but the opinions of the highest-tier players should be taken seriously in a balance discussion. Anyone whining about how it's impossible to apply pressure to determine your opponent's composition/tech without throwing away your whole army or sacrificing all of your economy can't possibly understand the game well enough to have a useful thought about game balance.
How many zerglings are you gonna use to take down that wall? You'll either see more marines which will tells you absolutely nothing (could be expo, tech or megarax all in), or they'll repair with 2 scvs and the ling are uselss. And what's worse, you overmade zerglings instead of drones, putting you in rough shape in economy against ALL openings. The only time making this many zerglings is good is vs the megarax all in, and wasting them on damaging supply depots is perhaps the worst thing you could do.
You are right, gateway units can pressure Terran quite well, zerglings can't. 3 gate expand can hold 1/1/1, but it is very difficult, and your ladder results can hardly be called conclusive evidence (neither can mine, but I rarely see Pro zergs able to scout the Terran composition before the natural is taken or lair)
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What YOU said however, is that a protoss loses when their army dies, whereas a terran losing their army means they can just bebuild. That my friend, is pure bullshit, and the only point I am arguing here.
If you are imagining players losing battles decisively, like with a bad move command that makes half of their army move the wrong way around an obstacle, it's the proximity to their base combined with the defensive ability of the units they are producing which determines whether they will lose immediately or be able to continue to stay in the game.
Protoss can lose their army in the middle of the map, and if they aren't producing something like balanced collosus with stalker/zealot they can straight up lose the game. Terrans losing their army in the middle of the map have better and broader options to stop the bleeding.
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On August 19 2011 06:22 Shiladie wrote:
I think protoss have an imposed over-reliance on the stalker, and would benefit greatly from the stalker taking on a more harass based role, while the immortal or another new unit took on the 'meat of the army' role that stalkers are forced into right now.
As a Toss player I really enjoy using Stalkers in a hit and run role vs T and P. Zerg is different since Speedlings scare the ever living crap out of me when sharking with Stalkers. The added risk is if you bring Sentries and Lots with you it may protect your Stalks but you definitely risk a Speedling run by which can be devastating.
About mass Immorts, they are worth 2 Stalkers and incidentally do the same damage vs normal and a lot more vs armored. There is potential for mass Immortals but the lower range, mobility and larger size makes them somewhat cumbersome to use. Admittedly few Protoss invest in more than 1-2 Robo bays so no one's really mined the mass Immortal/Colo vein.
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I guess the hardest things to deal with right now are (not mentioning mirrors for obvious reasons):
So I want to add another thing Artosis mentioned in a recent State of the Game cast:
Mass Blink Stalker in PvZ. Once Protoss has a small advantage, good blink play pretty much beats everything a zerg can throw at a Protoss player. (again, only doable with an advantage)
* Blink Stalkers counter Roaches, Hydras, Mutas, Banelings
* Blink Stalkers are decent vs low amounts of Ultras, Broodlords and Infestors
* Blink Stalkers get shredded by same supply of Zerglings, yet you can't do that, because you will either not have enough larva or minerals
* Blink Stalkers have map control (so zerg can't play reactive)
* also if you didn't go melee upgrades you have no real counter unit at all, unless you manage to get out 10+ infestor+same supply in roaches or 15+ Broodlords
maybe imbalance is a harsh word for this, but a lot of times when P has an advantage you just don't have the ressources or time to build up anything that can beat an army that either loses all units at once or no units at all.
So you can't take out smaller junks of them, but you also can't win a straight up fight because you are behind...
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To me, I currently have these qualms with balance:
1. Destiny-style infestors. I also know that his style doesn't work at high skill levels but even with ghosts I can't counter it and it feels like infestors force the use of either mech or ghosts and do too well at countering bio...and mech with NP.
2. 3gate robo (or similar) especially when it goes for something like chargelot immortal forces Terran to go bio, but the switch to Colossus is then very easy and Colossus have no counter from Terran other than Vikings. Again, high skill level players seem to negate this, I'm just not good enough for it and it seems like as Protoss it doesn't take much to execute it at lower gold-plat-diam levels.
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1. Destiny-style infestors. I also know that his style doesn't work at high skill levels but even with ghosts I can't counter it and it feels like infestors force the use of either mech or ghosts and do too well at countering bio...and mech with NP.
I really don't like the fungal growth mechanic as it is right now aswell / except in zvz.
Balance wise I agree - it isn't overpowered, I just don't think it adds much fun to the game.
I think it would be less problematic if it wouldn't stop massive units like Thors,Archons,Collosi but rather allow them to still move like the ultralisk can while effected.
NP is totally fine, as a random player I know how tricky it can be to pull of.
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On August 19 2011 06:52 Big J wrote:
I guess the hardest things to deal with right now are (not mentioning mirrors for obvious reasons):
So I want to add another thing Artosis mentioned in a recent State of the Game cast:
Mass Blink Stalker in PvZ. Once Protoss has a small advantage, good blink play pretty much beats everything a zerg can throw at a Protoss player. (again, only doable with an advantage)
* Blink Stalkers counter Roaches, Hydras, Mutas, Banelings
* Blink Stalkers are decent vs low amounts of Ultras, Broodlords and Infestors
* Blink Stalkers get shredded by same supply of Zerglings, yet you can't do that, because you will either not have enough larva or minerals
* Blink Stalkers have map control (so zerg can't play reactive)
* also if you didn't go melee upgrades you have no real counter unit at all, unless you manage to get out 10+ infestor+same supply in roaches or 15+ Broodlords
maybe imbalance is a harsh word for this, but a lot of times when P has an advantage you just don't have the ressources or time to build up anything that can beat an army that either loses all units at once or no units at all.
So you can't take out smaller junks of them, but you also can't win a straight up fight because you are behind...
I suggest you try ling/bling/infestor. And by ling/bling/infestor, I mean a few infestors purely to keep the stalkers in place and a lot of lings and banelings. It crushes pretty much every ground army protoss has, though its not too great against zealot/archon/ht.
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Is this a balance discussion thread or low level zergs come here to QQ thread? The amount of zerg players that quoted the most sound RTS advice in the thread to refute it a few pages back is borderline sickening. Either use your own brain, or watch a true high level player before you start talking about being unable to scout with aggression. Just look at Losira and how he plays... he constantly pokes and prods with a healthy number of lings. Id say High Masters NA skill level and below zergs seem to have no clue. Did you all come over from WoW raiding at the same time? Where do you get these notions? Seriously... Make some fucking combat units and scout the front, count some units, and make some decisions. If you can't do that, then you shouldn't be posting here. The other two races do it and there's NO limiting factor preventing you from getting the same information. One guy even said you're giving up a macro advantage to scout... no shit... did you know that theres no where in blizzards dumb description of zerg to say that they're "the macro race"... they dont define a macro race. IN FACT, Bowder said himself in an interview people aren't playing zerg the way they envisioned it. Since every zerg on the planet drones their ass off and cuts every possible corner... im going to venture to say that's what he was referring to.
If you're a zerg thats winning and not whining, this isn't directed at you. If you're a helpless zerg that won't sac an overlord... or can't deduct and narrow down your builds by what kills it without seeing your buildings, you might consider playing an easier game... like tic tac toe
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On August 19 2011 06:52 Big J wrote:
I guess the hardest things to deal with right now are (not mentioning mirrors for obvious reasons):
So I want to add another thing Artosis mentioned in a recent State of the Game cast:
Mass Blink Stalker in PvZ. Once Protoss has a small advantage, good blink play pretty much beats everything a zerg can throw at a Protoss player. (again, only doable with an advantage)
* Blink Stalkers counter Roaches, Hydras, Mutas, Banelings
* Blink Stalkers are decent vs low amounts of Ultras, Broodlords and Infestors
* Blink Stalkers get shredded by same supply of Zerglings, yet you can't do that, because you will either not have enough larva or minerals
* Blink Stalkers have map control (so zerg can't play reactive)
* also if you didn't go melee upgrades you have no real counter unit at all, unless you manage to get out 10+ infestor+same supply in roaches or 15+ Broodlords
maybe imbalance is a harsh word for this, but a lot of times when P has an advantage you just don't have the ressources or time to build up anything that can beat an army that either loses all units at once or no units at all.
So you can't take out smaller junks of them, but you also can't win a straight up fight because you are behind...
Ok you are making a lot of assumptions here. I don't want to explain each point so I will just focus on your statement that stalkers counter roaches.
Now let's discuss roaches vs stalkers (assuming mid/late game, so 2/2 on roaches 3/0 on stalkers)
in a 1 on 1 fight, roach beats stalker (obviously unrealistic)
stalkers cost almost twice as much as roaches (2 roaches for every stalker)
stalkers have longer range (so more stalkers can be shooting at a time)
roaches are faster (so you can get up close to allow more roaches firing at once, or set up flanks)
stalkers have blink (teleports a hurt unit to the back) (very apm intensive)
roaches have burrow (heals 10 hp/sec = more than the DPS of a stalker) (also very apm intensive)
(seriously, you can't kill a burrowed roach with a stalker)
Whenever someone says that stalkers counter roaches, you have to think about everything that each of the units has. Not many zergs micro their roaches, whereas blink stalkers need that micro. Now I understand that it seems like a waste to micro units that cost only 75/25, but if you are behind, as in the situation you describe, you need to micro them. It doesn't have to be individual unit micro, you can do it in slices like stalkers. Just burrow the front ones. Even if they have an observer, they are suddenly using twice as much damage to kill your burrowed units as they would have if they were unburrowed.
Also, when those front roaches burrow, the rest of them have more room to move up and shoot. So if you didn't have enough surface area to attack before, now you get the same amount of damage output, and half as much damage coming at you. And this is without even telling your roaches to move while burrowed: this micro is just selecting the front roaches and hitting the hotkey for burrow.
Also, I left out other units for simplicity, but having units like lings to surround, or infestors to hold the stalkers in place, or even hydras to deal greater DPS, all amplify the abilities of the roach. I know that zerg macro mechanics take more focus than those of Terran or Protoss, but this micro would make a huge difference when you engage with roaches.
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I feel like at the highest level, Terran hits every EMP and is always positioned well. Combine this with the ability to drop and I think it's a slightly Terran favoured matchup in GM league and in Korea Master League +. But at the same time I feel like in NA's mid/low master league and in Diamond especially, most Terrans cannot deal with even 2 base Colossus, let alone 3 base Colossus + HT, therefore I feel like at all but the highest (and perhaps lowest) levels, TvP is fairly strongly Protoss favoured in the current metagame. "You just engaged poorly" is a hard pill to swallow that Diamond/Low Master Terrans are often told when asking for help.
I think the things I dislike about TvP is how quickly it ends and how little strategic positioning there is. There is typically 1 or 2 major engagements which end the game. Basically in the lategame the whole game is EMP. If the Terran has the right units, hits his EMP and micros against chargelots, he has a good chance of coming out on top. But if you miss the EMPs you lose the game, and it's a similar situation with Vikings. Though they are better than corrupters, you still want to have more resource value in Vikings than the Protoss has in Colossus, and they have seperate upgrades. All in all these things add up to "2 Gate robo expand -> colossus -> push and take a third -> Chargelot/Templar" being a super strong gameplan that isn't really imbalanced and doesnt warrant any Terran buffs, but I feel does make the matchup Protoss favoured in leagues where the Terrans simply dont have the speed to do all those great things Terran can do.
What're your thoughts?
Exactly what I've been thinking. I'm a ''High diamond'' player and i really have a hard time with protoss. It's really frustrating, and even though i know that if i was a pro i could do so much better I might never get to that level since I don't play that much.
It sucks when your up against a protoss death ball (with even army supplies) where if you split perfectly you win but otherwise you get rolled.
I just wish they would remove the collosi and come up with a better unit that requires more ''skill'' like for instance the reaver.
The collosi has a horrible design even since it's a ''SIEGE'' units that super mobile. Only came to be cause it ''Looked cool'' -.-'
Sure the collosi isn't the only problem, but atleast it would be kinda ''easy'' to fix.
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On August 19 2011 08:33 Zorgaz wrote:Show nested quote +
I feel like at the highest level, Terran hits every EMP and is always positioned well. Combine this with the ability to drop and I think it's a slightly Terran favoured matchup in GM league and in Korea Master League +. But at the same time I feel like in NA's mid/low master league and in Diamond especially, most Terrans cannot deal with even 2 base Colossus, let alone 3 base Colossus + HT, therefore I feel like at all but the highest (and perhaps lowest) levels, TvP is fairly strongly Protoss favoured in the current metagame. "You just engaged poorly" is a hard pill to swallow that Diamond/Low Master Terrans are often told when asking for help.
I think the things I dislike about TvP is how quickly it ends and how little strategic positioning there is. There is typically 1 or 2 major engagements which end the game. Basically in the lategame the whole game is EMP. If the Terran has the right units, hits his EMP and micros against chargelots, he has a good chance of coming out on top. But if you miss the EMPs you lose the game, and it's a similar situation with Vikings. Though they are better than corrupters, you still want to have more resource value in Vikings than the Protoss has in Colossus, and they have seperate upgrades. All in all these things add up to "2 Gate robo expand -> colossus -> push and take a third -> Chargelot/Templar" being a super strong gameplan that isn't really imbalanced and doesnt warrant any Terran buffs, but I feel does make the matchup Protoss favoured in leagues where the Terrans simply dont have the speed to do all those great things Terran can do.
What're your thoughts?
Exactly what I've been thinking. I'm a ''High diamond'' player and i really have a hard time with protoss. It's really frustrating, and even though i know that if i was a pro i could do so much better I might never get to that level since I don't play that much. It sucks when your up against a protoss death ball (with even army supplies) where if you split perfectly you win but otherwise you get rolled. I just wish they would remove the collosi and come up with a better unit that requires more ''skill'' like for instance the reaver.The collosi has a horrible design even since it's a ''SIEGE'' units that super mobile. Only came to be cause it ''Looked cool'' -.-' Sure the collosi isn't the only problem, but atleast it would be kinda ''easy'' to fix.
You do realize that if you are losing against colossi compositions, you would be losing even harder against ravers? The reaver is a much better unit. Good for harass, slow firing speed, so it does insane damage per shot, AND it cant be attacked by vikings with 9 range.
Ergo, a protoss with reavers would rape you much harder, than a protoss with colossi already does.
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On August 19 2011 08:33 Zorgaz wrote:Show nested quote +
I feel like at the highest level, Terran hits every EMP and is always positioned well. Combine this with the ability to drop and I think it's a slightly Terran favoured matchup in GM league and in Korea Master League +. But at the same time I feel like in NA's mid/low master league and in Diamond especially, most Terrans cannot deal with even 2 base Colossus, let alone 3 base Colossus + HT, therefore I feel like at all but the highest (and perhaps lowest) levels, TvP is fairly strongly Protoss favoured in the current metagame. "You just engaged poorly" is a hard pill to swallow that Diamond/Low Master Terrans are often told when asking for help.
I think the things I dislike about TvP is how quickly it ends and how little strategic positioning there is. There is typically 1 or 2 major engagements which end the game. Basically in the lategame the whole game is EMP. If the Terran has the right units, hits his EMP and micros against chargelots, he has a good chance of coming out on top. But if you miss the EMPs you lose the game, and it's a similar situation with Vikings. Though they are better than corrupters, you still want to have more resource value in Vikings than the Protoss has in Colossus, and they have seperate upgrades. All in all these things add up to "2 Gate robo expand -> colossus -> push and take a third -> Chargelot/Templar" being a super strong gameplan that isn't really imbalanced and doesnt warrant any Terran buffs, but I feel does make the matchup Protoss favoured in leagues where the Terrans simply dont have the speed to do all those great things Terran can do.
What're your thoughts?
Exactly what I've been thinking. I'm a ''High diamond'' player and i really have a hard time with protoss. It's really frustrating, and even though i know that if i was a pro i could do so much better I might never get to that level since I don't play that much. It sucks when your up against a protoss death ball (with even army supplies) where if you split perfectly you win but otherwise you get rolled. I just wish they would remove the collosi and come up with a better unit that requires more ''skill'' like for instance the reaver. The collosi has a horrible design even since it's a ''SIEGE'' units that super mobile. Only came to be cause it ''Looked cool'' -.-' Sure the collosi isn't the only problem, but atleast it would be kinda ''easy'' to fix.
I think most protoss players would agree with you about the colossus, myself included.
The problem with the colossus is that it doesn't reward micro at all. I can use a colossus just about as well as Huk can, which very sad when he has about 200 apm more than me. If it was a reaver, this would definitely not be the case, which I would be perfectly happy about! I like there to be as much potential to improve as possible, and the colossus is just the laughing stock of micro.
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Hello everyone. First I want to congratulate the creator of this thread. Teamliquid seems that the issues are vetted balance and expel users easily in any discussion of this type. Even the community qualifies with "QQ" any attempt to reason on this issue.
Maybe what I'm gonna say now will not satisfy many people, perhaps none, perhaps surprised me and the opposite thing happens. Anyway, I have my views on the balance, with my thoughts, and I just want to share with you.
Here I would like to collect all the points I think need some retouching.
ZERG:
- Overseer: The two skills that has this unit are highly questionable. Corrupt may need more research or exploring their uses in the future, but as we see most professional players do not use very often and just let their wasted energy stored in the Overseers.
Yet, the Corrupt case is not the defendant. The changeling need some variations to become an interesting skill. Some of them might be:
· Convert changeling in any enemy unit, so that their camouflage could be more practical and options had more depth exploration.
· Convert the changeling in any unit, ally or enemy. This could cause Hallucination/Changeling filling the same rol, so bad move. However it might be interesting to use in the metagame.
· Give the changeling the category of invisible, before it transforms (later to be visible 100%). Personally I think this is the best way. Most experienced players are able to distinguish perfectly a changeling and stop him at an early stage even before the approaching. If we grant the status of invisible, a changeling could infiltrate the enemy more easily. Upload energy would not be so farfetched considering the option of invisibility.
- Spinecrawler: The time of burial needs a buff. It makes no sense to preserve the ability of burial in this building if 90% of cases does not help anything.
Moreover, the construction time of Spinecrawlers seems counterproductive to the defense. Reducing the time of construction does not seem so outlandish.
- Creep Tumor: Reduce the size of the 3D model (or change) would be a good idea because then requires a minimum aim skill for the opponent to snipe the tumor (otherwise would also be more pleasing to the eye from the point view Zerg). Extending the life or armor of this "unit" would not be a bad idea.
TERRAN:
- Marine: Changes in the Marines are often rejected in full, since it is a very basic unit and practically the core of the Terran. The changes have drastic effects, but here's my idea.
The Marines micromanaging seems very easy compared to other units of the game, even more if we go back to the original StarCraft. Blizzard included a patch in the past where changing attack speed and damage Ultralisks. This change was not nearly a nerf nor a buff, because mathematically the DPS of Ultralisks don't decreased or increased. My idea is to make a similar change in the Marines. Increase the damage, but slow down the attack. Thus the micromanagement would be a little more difficult. This would prevent some Marine vs. X being so easily avoided by the less skilled Terran players.
- SCV: Terran Workers have a +5 life. I do not understand this decision. It is true that Probes regenerate their shields and Drones his life slowly, but the SCV's have the ability to repair each other. This is not an equivalence but just do not see the need to increase the life of the SCV to a nonexistent problem.
- Scanner Sweep: The radius of this needs to be revised. In the original Starcraft the player needed some aim to find the enemy's production buildings. In SC2 scanner sweep reveals almost 100% of base. The radius is unreasonably large.
- Extra Supply Calling: Delete this skill.
- Neosteel Frame: Delete this skill.
- Combat Shield: This ability only gives greater cost efficiency to the Marines, units that already have an efficiency quite profitable.
- Autoturrets: 180 seconds long is an eternity. To reduce it would not be unreasonable. The autoturrets should be an ability to timely support, not a totem defender denies fighting for 3 long minutes.
- Sensor Tower: Delete this building.
- Battlecruiser: Needs a buff. Effectiveness is totally nil in comparison with other units of the game.
- Load on Command Center: I do not understand the addition of this ability when the other races do not have any necessary assistance in this field. Load units in the command center just makes Terran magic-comeback's more common.
PROTOSS:
- Sentry: I think the FF need a change in some way. It is sometimes said that could have a number of shields, which is a bad idea imo. Two possibilities would shuffle:
· Reduce the time in a few seconds. A force field lasts 15 seconds, which seems endless. A reduction of 5 seconds may not seem unreasonable to me.
· The other possible change? Slightly reduce its radius. Today's armies made up of several Sentries is not unusual, however, is not required excessive energy expenditure by Protoss players to block the enemy. Will require more alertness and agility to place the FF's if they were a little smaller. Sometimes FF's are almost merging in 70% or 50% of its radius...
- Warp Prism: It is clear that this unit needs a change. Increase speed, reduce cost or remove this unit directly to the game given the minimal use has been given so far.
- Phoenix: Change the system of micro management of this unit. The minimum that is asked is a bit of skill when it comes to control, like the Mutalisks require a certain order to "attack" on the move.
- Mothership: Delete this unit.
- Colossus: Denying other Allied Protoss units collision with the colossus would be ideal right now. The dreaded Deathball is strengthened because the units can focus on and defend the colossi from the bottom, so they are protected from most attacks. This change would favor Protoss micromanaging troops forcing players to sacrifice and advance Stalkers / Zealots or directly expose their Colossi to the enemy. In short, this would require a unique placement of the units instead of grouping them into a single pack to attack and move.
- Carrier: Need a buff. Its effectiveness is totally nil in comparison with other units of the game.
- Warp-In Units: The destruction of a pylon supporting a Protoss warp-in should end with the loss of units and resources. That is, no refunds of any kind.
Finally and most aside, the visual inspection of the lifebars and energy would must be crucial to Blizzard. Playing with lifebars option enabled is very annoying at times, and we know that this view is used by progamers continuously. There are elements disposable as the dividing lines, and the height and the width can be reduced in general. Here I make a visual approach.
![[image loading]](http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/477/bars1.jpg)
Nothing more to add. Thank you for the opportunity to review the balance sheet and sorry for my English.
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 19 2011 09:04 Mr.X wrote:Hello everyone. First I want to congratulate the creator of this thread. Teamliquid seems that the issues are vetted balance and expel users easily in any discussion of this type. Even the community qualifies with "QQ" any attempt to reason on this issue. Maybe what I'm gonna say now will not satisfy many people, perhaps none, perhaps surprised me and the opposite thing happens. Anyway, I have my views on the balance, with my thoughts, and I just want to share with you. Here I would like to collect all the points I think need some retouching.
ZERG:- Overseer: The two skills that has this unit are highly questionable. Corrupt may need more research or exploring their uses in the future, but as we see most professional players do not use very often and just let their wasted energy stored in the Overseers. Yet, the Corrupt case is not the defendant. The changeling need some variations to become an interesting skill. Some of them might be: · Convert changeling in any enemy unit, so that their camouflage could be more practical and options had more depth exploration. · Convert the changeling in any unit, ally or enemy. This could cause Hallucination/Changeling filling the same rol, so bad move. However it might be interesting to use in the metagame. · Give the changeling the category of invisible, before it transforms (later to be visible 100%). Personally I think this is the best way. Most experienced players are able to distinguish perfectly a changeling and stop him at an early stage even before the approaching. If we grant the status of invisible, a changeling could infiltrate the enemy more easily. Upload energy would not be so farfetched considering the option of invisibility. - Spinecrawler: The time of burial needs a buff. It makes no sense to preserve the ability of burial in this building if 90% of cases does not help anything. Moreover, the construction time of Spinecrawlers seems counterproductive to the defense. Reducing the time of construction does not seem so outlandish. - Creep Tumor: Reduce the size of the 3D model (or change) would be a good idea because then requires a minimum aim skill for the opponent to snipe the tumor (otherwise would also be more pleasing to the eye from the point view Zerg). Extending the life or armor of this "unit" would not be a bad idea. TERRAN:- Marine: Changes in the Marines are often rejected in full, since it is a very basic unit and practically the core of the Terran. The changes have drastic effects, but here's my idea. The Marines micromanaging seems very easy compared to other units of the game, even more if we go back to the original StarCraft. Blizzard included a patch in the past where changing attack speed and damage Ultralisks. This change was not nearly a nerf nor a buff, because mathematically the DPS of Ultralisks don't decreased or increased. My idea is to make a similar change in the Marines. Increase the damage, but slow down the attack. Thus the micromanagement would be a little more difficult. This would prevent some Marine vs. X being so easily avoided by the less skilled Terran players. - SCV: Terran Workers have a +5 life. I do not understand this decision. It is true that Probes regenerate their shields and Drones his life slowly, but the SCV's have the ability to repair each other. This is not an equivalence but just do not see the need to increase the life of the SCV to a nonexistent problem. - Scanner Sweep: The radius of this needs to be revised. In the original Starcraft the player needed some aim to find the enemy's production buildings. In SC2 scanner sweep reveals almost 100% of base. The radius is unreasonably large. - Extra Supply Calling: Delete this skill.
- Neosteel Frame: Delete this skill. - Combat Shield: This ability only gives greater cost efficiency to the Marines, units that already have an efficiency quite profitable. - Autoturrets: 180 seconds long is an eternity. To reduce it would not be unreasonable. The autoturrets should be an ability to timely support, not a totem defender denies fighting for 3 long minutes. - Sensor Tower: Delete this building. - Battlecruiser: Needs a buff. Effectiveness is totally nil in comparison with other units of the game. - Load on Command Center: I do not understand the addition of this ability when the other races do not have any necessary assistance in this field. Load units in the command center just makes Terran magic-comeback's more common. PROTOSS:- Sentry: I think the FF need a change in some way. It is sometimes said that could have a number of shields, which is a bad idea imo. Two possibilities would shuffle: · Reduce the time in a few seconds. A force field lasts 15 seconds, which seems endless. A reduction of 5 seconds may not seem unreasonable to me. · The other possible change? Slightly reduce its radius. Today's armies made up of several Sentries is not unusual, however, is not required excessive energy expenditure by Protoss players to block the enemy. Will require more alertness and agility to place the FF's if they were a little smaller. Sometimes FF's are almost merging in 70% or 50% of its radius... - Warp Prism: It is clear that this unit needs a change. Increase speed, reduce cost or remove this unit directly to the game given the minimal use has been given so far. - Phoenix: Change the system of micro management of this unit. The minimum that is asked is a bit of skill when it comes to control, like the Mutalisks require a certain order to "attack" on the move. - Mothership: Delete this unit. - Colossus: Denying other Allied Protoss units collision with the colossus would be ideal right now. The dreaded Deathball is strengthened because the units can focus on and defend the colossi from the bottom, so they are protected from most attacks. This change would favor Protoss micromanaging troops forcing players to sacrifice and advance Stalkers / Zealots or directly expose their Colossi to the enemy. In short, this would require a unique placement of the units instead of grouping them into a single pack to attack and move. - Carrier: Need a buff. Its effectiveness is totally nil in comparison with other units of the game. - Warp-In Units: The destruction of a pylon supporting a Protoss warp-in should end with the loss of units and resources. That is, no refunds of any kind. Finally and most aside, the visual inspection of the lifebars and energy would must be crucial to Blizzard. Playing with lifebars option enabled is very annoying at times, and we know that this view is used by progamers continuously. There are elements disposable as the dividing lines, and the height and the width can be reduced in general. Here I make a visual approach. Nothing more to add. Thank you for the opportunity to review the balance sheet and sorry for my English.
So 3 Z buffs, and nerfbat the other two to hell? Not even a mention of the OP'ness of fungals..... cmon...........
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On August 19 2011 09:16 Arkless wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 19 2011 09:04 Mr.X wrote:Hello everyone. First I want to congratulate the creator of this thread. Teamliquid seems that the issues are vetted balance and expel users easily in any discussion of this type. Even the community qualifies with "QQ" any attempt to reason on this issue. Maybe what I'm gonna say now will not satisfy many people, perhaps none, perhaps surprised me and the opposite thing happens. Anyway, I have my views on the balance, with my thoughts, and I just want to share with you. Here I would like to collect all the points I think need some retouching.
ZERG:- Overseer: The two skills that has this unit are highly questionable. Corrupt may need more research or exploring their uses in the future, but as we see most professional players do not use very often and just let their wasted energy stored in the Overseers. Yet, the Corrupt case is not the defendant. The changeling need some variations to become an interesting skill. Some of them might be: · Convert changeling in any enemy unit, so that their camouflage could be more practical and options had more depth exploration. · Convert the changeling in any unit, ally or enemy. This could cause Hallucination/Changeling filling the same rol, so bad move. However it might be interesting to use in the metagame. · Give the changeling the category of invisible, before it transforms (later to be visible 100%). Personally I think this is the best way. Most experienced players are able to distinguish perfectly a changeling and stop him at an early stage even before the approaching. If we grant the status of invisible, a changeling could infiltrate the enemy more easily. Upload energy would not be so farfetched considering the option of invisibility. - Spinecrawler: The time of burial needs a buff. It makes no sense to preserve the ability of burial in this building if 90% of cases does not help anything. Moreover, the construction time of Spinecrawlers seems counterproductive to the defense. Reducing the time of construction does not seem so outlandish. - Creep Tumor: Reduce the size of the 3D model (or change) would be a good idea because then requires a minimum aim skill for the opponent to snipe the tumor (otherwise would also be more pleasing to the eye from the point view Zerg). Extending the life or armor of this "unit" would not be a bad idea. TERRAN:- Marine: Changes in the Marines are often rejected in full, since it is a very basic unit and practically the core of the Terran. The changes have drastic effects, but here's my idea. The Marines micromanaging seems very easy compared to other units of the game, even more if we go back to the original StarCraft. Blizzard included a patch in the past where changing attack speed and damage Ultralisks. This change was not nearly a nerf nor a buff, because mathematically the DPS of Ultralisks don't decreased or increased. My idea is to make a similar change in the Marines. Increase the damage, but slow down the attack. Thus the micromanagement would be a little more difficult. This would prevent some Marine vs. X being so easily avoided by the less skilled Terran players. - SCV: Terran Workers have a +5 life. I do not understand this decision. It is true that Probes regenerate their shields and Drones his life slowly, but the SCV's have the ability to repair each other. This is not an equivalence but just do not see the need to increase the life of the SCV to a nonexistent problem. - Scanner Sweep: The radius of this needs to be revised. In the original Starcraft the player needed some aim to find the enemy's production buildings. In SC2 scanner sweep reveals almost 100% of base. The radius is unreasonably large. - Extra Supply Calling: Delete this skill.
- Neosteel Frame: Delete this skill. - Combat Shield: This ability only gives greater cost efficiency to the Marines, units that already have an efficiency quite profitable. - Autoturrets: 180 seconds long is an eternity. To reduce it would not be unreasonable. The autoturrets should be an ability to timely support, not a totem defender denies fighting for 3 long minutes. - Sensor Tower: Delete this building. - Battlecruiser: Needs a buff. Effectiveness is totally nil in comparison with other units of the game. - Load on Command Center: I do not understand the addition of this ability when the other races do not have any necessary assistance in this field. Load units in the command center just makes Terran magic-comeback's more common. PROTOSS:- Sentry: I think the FF need a change in some way. It is sometimes said that could have a number of shields, which is a bad idea imo. Two possibilities would shuffle: · Reduce the time in a few seconds. A force field lasts 15 seconds, which seems endless. A reduction of 5 seconds may not seem unreasonable to me. · The other possible change? Slightly reduce its radius. Today's armies made up of several Sentries is not unusual, however, is not required excessive energy expenditure by Protoss players to block the enemy. Will require more alertness and agility to place the FF's if they were a little smaller. Sometimes FF's are almost merging in 70% or 50% of its radius... - Warp Prism: It is clear that this unit needs a change. Increase speed, reduce cost or remove this unit directly to the game given the minimal use has been given so far. - Phoenix: Change the system of micro management of this unit. The minimum that is asked is a bit of skill when it comes to control, like the Mutalisks require a certain order to "attack" on the move. - Mothership: Delete this unit. - Colossus: Denying other Allied Protoss units collision with the colossus would be ideal right now. The dreaded Deathball is strengthened because the units can focus on and defend the colossi from the bottom, so they are protected from most attacks. This change would favor Protoss micromanaging troops forcing players to sacrifice and advance Stalkers / Zealots or directly expose their Colossi to the enemy. In short, this would require a unique placement of the units instead of grouping them into a single pack to attack and move. - Carrier: Need a buff. Its effectiveness is totally nil in comparison with other units of the game. - Warp-In Units: The destruction of a pylon supporting a Protoss warp-in should end with the loss of units and resources. That is, no refunds of any kind. Finally and most aside, the visual inspection of the lifebars and energy would must be crucial to Blizzard. Playing with lifebars option enabled is very annoying at times, and we know that this view is used by progamers continuously. There are elements disposable as the dividing lines, and the height and the width can be reduced in general. Here I make a visual approach. Nothing more to add. Thank you for the opportunity to review the balance sheet and sorry for my English. So 3 Z buffs, and nerfbat the other two to hell? Not even a mention of the OP'ness of fungals..... cmon...........
agreed
also buffing a unit to make it more popular is not a balance change
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should be noted we should never go straight to removing units. at this point it should always be to revise units. lets face it - no one will ever be removed / added before HotS
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XD. This thread is worth a few good laughs. The game, although some tweaks could be made for every race, is balanced. If I had to play for the next 3 years without a patch I would be completely fine with it. This thread is funny however, because everyone is asking for slight buffs to their race. Everything everyone has mentioned isn't race specific, all races have troubles with it.
Games balanced, I'm happy with it, and I'll look forward to tweaks in HotS.
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On August 19 2011 05:45 TimeSpiral wrote:
I thought of something the other day ... gassless mass production.
Bear with me .. (This is an overt troll-rage about Toss and Zerg being imba imba, but I think it is a worthy observation. I'm not trying to wear an veils here.)
Terran
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There is only one production structure that does not require gas, and that is the Barracks. Tech-labs are required to build the high-tech rax units. The tech-lab is not a research, it is a production add-on, so the only truly gassless production building unit is the marine.
The helion does not cost gas, but the factories, tech labs, and the reactors do.
Protoss
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Gateways (the transform into Warpgate is free after one-time research) cost no gas. You can MASS produce Gateways for minerals only and this ultimately leads to mass production of a really nice tech-tree: Zealot, Sentry, Stalker, Dark Templar, High Templar, Archon. Sure you need one-time tech buildings that require gas, but there is no per-gateway gas requisite.
Couple this with the fact that Warpgates skip two production cycles, and you have a supremely potent situation. The two production cycles that are skipped: (1) As soon as the WG Finishes, and (2) At max. While maxed, all the WG's cooldown. The moment supply is available you have insta-units with the potential for proxy. Then couple that with late-game chrono surplus and you have double-time proxy production potential. OUCH! 25 mules on a Gold base doesn't really matter if a big counter attack kills you because you both just traded.
Zerg
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Hatches and Queens do not cost gas and they can produce every unit in the Zerg arsenal with the exception of the two morphs. Once the one-time tech-building is constructed, it's gassless mass-production from there.
CONCLUSION
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This is really just an observation at a pretty basic level, but one that may not be extremely apparent. Warpgates, Hatches, and Queens (to a lesser extent) are ridiculously good production mineral dumps, whereas Terran can build the Barracks. Which without an additional add-on build-time, and gas, for each building, can only produce Marines. Even with tech labs and reactors, all you're really building is a Marine, Marauder, Ghost army which is not nearly as viable as the Toss's Templar tech or the Zerg's entire tech-tree. The only reason I say that is because Starport tech is actually required for Barracks play to be viable because of Stim.
My goal is not to make any suggestions, but just to bring this interesting observation into the discussion.
So what? Aside from Terran all other races have their options well spread out. An investment in a certain build can easily mean a build order loss. Going robo, delays your templar tech significantly and vice versa. What ever option you go with as Zerg or Protoss you can't easily transition out of in early to mid game. While Terran on the other hand just uses a tech lab. Which could mean Cloacked Banshees, Hellions, MMM, Vikings, etc. And the response for that as Zerg and Protoss is very different tech routes.
I don't get your point.
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On August 19 2011 06:52 Big J wrote:
I guess the hardest things to deal with right now are (not mentioning mirrors for obvious reasons):
So I want to add another thing Artosis mentioned in a recent State of the Game cast:
Mass Blink Stalker in PvZ. Once Protoss has a small advantage, good blink play pretty much beats everything a zerg can throw at a Protoss player. (again, only doable with an advantage)
* Blink Stalkers counter Roaches, Hydras, Mutas, Banelings
* Blink Stalkers are decent vs low amounts of Ultras, Broodlords and Infestors
* Blink Stalkers get shredded by same supply of Zerglings, yet you can't do that, because you will either not have enough larva or minerals
* Blink Stalkers have map control (so zerg can't play reactive)
* also if you didn't go melee upgrades you have no real counter unit at all, unless you manage to get out 10+ infestor+same supply in roaches or 15+ Broodlords
maybe imbalance is a harsh word for this, but a lot of times when P has an advantage you just don't have the ressources or time to build up anything that can beat an army that either loses all units at once or no units at all.
So you can't take out smaller junks of them, but you also can't win a straight up fight because you are behind...
I recommend watching Destiny's stream. He goes Ling Infestor and that straight up mercs Blinks stalkers. And if the opponent goes Collosi his quick NP deals with that easily. And if the Protoss goes Templar, he switches to Roach infestor.
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Diamond Protoss in S1, took S2 off, chugging through Platinum now. However, I am basing my thoughts on what I have seen in various pro-level tourneys. Now that my biases and perspective is out of the way...
Sentries should have a researchable upgrade similar to the Khaydarin Amulet. Put it in the Templar Archives. Reason: in lategame engagements, sentries tend to croak with all the prejudice one would expect from a sluggish, fragile caster. Because sentries are such an enormous gas investment, and their spells are about as crucial as any caster's, starting at 50 energy (particularly in a frantic engagement) makes them punishing to repurchase. 75 would mean they can spawn ready to guardian shield (compare to psy storm) and a shorter wait for a second FF. Frequently seen in this month's Code A tourney, the cost per forcefield in the late game is 100 gas. Come ON!
I am also not cool with the grid-snap forcefield placement on ramps. The variance of a pixel's width can (and does, with the best Protoss players in the world) mean the difference between a blocked ramp and a jailbreak. The value of one forcefield only matters in the rush-defense - you've chrono'ed out the first sentry, and blocking the ramp for 15 seconds is no assurance you'll prevail. Not blocking the ramp means gg. You can chalk that up as a newbie error, but when the error is made by a Korean pro... the result is more catastrophic than it has any right to be.
Finally, in the subject of Browder's mention of a harassment unit for Protoss - and while that can only be a bad thing for Protoss opponents, part of why I'd argue GSL representation has swung heavily in favor of Terran (recall early GSLs were much more Protoss-heavy; T an P were near-equal, if I recall correctly, and Z was seriously underrepresented) is because Terran is very resistant to harassment (by comparison) while excelling at it. Additionally, while having a mineral line flushed is "bad", there are still MULEs to help keep the spice flowing while SCVs are trickling back. The MULE mechanic may make up for losing an SCV's ability to generate income while building, but if you're not building anything, it's just gravy.
But back to the supposed Protoss "raider" - part of why I think it'll pay off less than hoped is because of the lack of synergy the rest of the Protoss army has with regard to harass. It'll bring a more credible threat, but it's not BFH/Marine-Medivac/Banshee/Ghost/Baneling Drop/Sling runby/Muta/I am boring myself now-type variety where you prepare but for the wrong one and kiss your income goodbye. Phoenix is the only credible harass Protoss has, I would argue - don't mistake me for early pressure, either - and it is pretty easily discouraged.
So, I would welcome a new harasser, but serious thought should be given to how easy flushing a mineral line should be - for Protoss and everyone else.
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EPT
