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My only complaint about Colossi is the fact they are too good at fighting all ground. In my opinion Colossi should do reduced damage to armored but the same against light. That way Protoss can no longer just go colossus blindly to counter practically all other units on the ground when the Immortal is intended for killing armored.
I understand Colossi are tier 3, but they should be much less effective or a rewarding choice against heavy roach or marauder builds. Too many times Protoss blindly make colossi are are greatly effective when no other unit really has this luxury. For example a unit like the Thor. These are rarely produced blindly although they are very good units in a lot of situations. Blindly rushing to it will most of the time end with you being killed because zealots, marauders, and zealots/stalker clean them up so quickly. I understand vikings have a really easy counter which is air, but so do broodlords and I know people don't complain nearly as much about broodlords as they do colossi.
If this takes readjusting the cost of Immortals to compensate that would be fine by me. In all fairness it would probably help with the 1/1/1 all in making them a much more attractive choice early.
Just some thoughts.
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What do people think about the idea of making Fungal Growth only affect ground units? This would nerf the ability that many players see as too strong, and it would encourage more air-based play in ZvX, which could make the Hydralisk more viable as well.
Plus, from a lore perspective, I always thought of Fungal Growth as fungus growing from the ground and tangling units in it, which is why they cannot move. This frame of thought doesn't make as much sense for air units.
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On August 19 2011 10:23 beamer159 wrote:
What do people think about the idea of making Fungal Growth only affect ground units? This would nerf the ability that many players see as too strong, and it would encourage more air-based play in ZvX, which could make the Hydralisk more viable as well.
I'd love it, you could actually use vikings vs broodlords, but it would force z to make mutas tvz to stop drop harrass
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On August 19 2011 10:23 beamer159 wrote:
What do people think about the idea of making Fungal Growth only affect ground units? This would nerf the ability that many players see as too strong, and it would encourage more air-based play in ZvX, which could make the Hydralisk more viable as well.
Plus, from a lore perspective, I always thought of Fungal Growth as fungus growing from the ground and tangling units in it, which is why they cannot move. This frame of thought doesn't make as much sense for air units.
I'm pretty sure this is part of the plan for next patch
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Fungal only against ground would make ZvZ exactly like brood war again, that is, lings into mass mutalisk.
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I'd rather see something like fungal becoming a 80-90% snare rather than a full root. Let fast air units like phoenix and mutas do well against pure infestor but worse against infestor/muta or infestor/hydra.
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On August 19 2011 10:28 Sc1pio wrote:
Fungal only against ground would make ZvZ exactly like brood war again, that is, lings into mass mutalisk.
that would be pretty nice
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Regardless of balance, fungal is bad for the game.
A spell that prevents your opponent from being able to do literally ANYTHING and turns the game into a 1 player game during battles is terrible for the health of this game.
Also, I think there's a clear problem lategame PvT with ghosts. Both snipe and EMP are range 10, while feedback is only range 9. You might say the micro is hard, but with perfect micro from the terran player you end up with this situation where it's literally impossible for the protoss to do anything.
Splitting templar doesn't help when the terran is good enough to double snipe every templar individually (i.e. see SlayerS.taeJa vs ZeNEX.Puzzle game 1 on Katrina AE from the iCCup Nationvoice Korean weekly week 7 semifinals). Since templar feedback range is shorter than the snipe range if the terran micros correctly like we see taeja do, there is literally no way for templar to beat ghosts.
The only option I can see for balance at the moment is putting templar in warp prisms, but this isn't viable due to terrans almost always having vikings with their army that will insta-gib your warp prisms.
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roaches are SO cheap. they need to cost the same as stalkers to be balanced. atm zergs are winning when they simply shouldnt be. something needs to be done
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On August 19 2011 10:45 L3g3nd_ wrote:
roaches are SO cheap. they need to cost the same as stalkers to be balanced. atm zergs are winning when they simply shouldnt be. something needs to be done
It's people like you that make balance threads absolutely atrocious to look at.
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I agree that fungal should have its root nerfed from full-immobilization to like, 75% slower move speed.
However, having it not affect air is a stupid change, which is not going to happen because blizz already attempted it in a PTR and promptly revoked it.
Now, something I feel like would be a very interesting, creative change to FG which I haven't seen anyone else mention yet, is have it 'bloom' from the center of the area instead of hitting all units in range instantly. Sort of the difference between the lurker attack in BW and the hellions attack in SC2, but in all directions instead of a line.
This would allow very skilled players to dodge the edges of the fungal and save perhaps a couple units.
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On August 19 2011 10:38 -orb- wrote:
Regardless of balance, fungal is bad for the game.
A spell that prevents your opponent from being able to do literally ANYTHING and turns the game into a 1 player game during battles is terrible for the health of this game.
I would agree. But, forcefields does almost the same thing and 15 seconds is an amazingly long time in any engagement. Siege tanks are kinda like that too. In a TvZ, the zerg player loses a good portion of ground army irregardless of what he does. The tanks might be able to get 2 hits off even before the zerg player can come into range of attacking anything at all. That is already more damage than a fungal, not forgetting that fungal has a limited use while tanks can just shell away forever.
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Regarding the whole 200/200 army thing, the problem is that the Protoss army is generally of a much higher value and still losing. I mean, as many high level zergs are saying, if you get ling/bling/infestor/ultra, there is no protoss deathball, and this boils down to the costliness and cost-effectiveness of this composition. But when there are fewer ultras and banelings and the ling/infestor composition rapes a very expensive protoss ball, it's pretty stupid, and that's what people are talking about. Same with terran: if they made the "Terran Deathball" (I think pioneered by Warden from FourK but if I'm wrong I'm sorry) then they'd win more of these major engagements. Honestly, from my perspective, once my army gets inevitably EMPed (unless I can get 8 feedbacks off before 2 EMPs while at a range disadvantage and a speed disadvantage) I think it's a bit silly how much damage a relatively cheap terran composition can do to my very expensive one. Let's say a deathball was comprised of 10 ghosts, 20 marauders, 10 vikings, 6 banshees, 2 ravens, 6 medivacs, 7 tanks, and 2 thors, then the terran deathball would be OP (I'm not saying this is something to go for, the current metagame favors standard terran, I'm just pointing out the whole 200/200 argument's full details).
I'd love to see EMP get nerfed and seeker missile get buffed. Lose half my army's health and lose all the energy on my units so I can't even micro my way back in = not only imbalance, but poor game design. At least make EMP serve its purpose as an anti-caster spell rather than an anti-protoss spell and then get the underused ravens put into every matchup.
What I want to say:
Just one thing I want to point out in response to every idiot who says "well Protoss just has to innovate or they're just gonna keep losing."
Well first, play protoss and innovate. I want to see what you do. The options we have and don't use we don't use because they're awful (most players have tried) and the ones we do use make us as predictable as we are.
But second, the reason I find this so ironic is that I tallied up the [G] posts in the strategy section (75 posts to be exact, about a month and a half back, around the time when Protoss started to decline rapidly) and this is what I found:
8 PvP
9 PvZ
12 PvT
6 PvX
ROFL that's already 35/75, so about 50%
6 TvT
8 TvZ
5 TvP
5 TvX
So less innovation in every matchup, but 24's not an embarrassing amount, now Zerg:
5 ZvZ
3 ZvP
3 ZvT
5 ZvX
16, nice innovation Zergs!
Now it might have changed now since I did it a couple of days ago and new things are added and others are bumped (although I did see a few mothership builds yesterday lol). But still, notice that there are 12 PvT guides and 9 PvZ, while there are only 5 TvP and 3 ZvP. We're fucking trying okay.
Also, I know this doesn't mean a ton, but I always see more people in the Protoss strategy channel than the other two chat channels.
And I find this funny considering that Terrans only recently realized the true potential of ghosts and hellions when it was pretty visible from a while back, and people used to QQ about infestors even though they were still quite strong before the buff. I also find it funny that it took so long for the roach/ling all-in to become popular considering all it required was for you to mine gas after you hit 100 and not get 50+ drones ASAP.
Something else I want to talk about:
The strength of cheeses/all-ins.
I always was told these were strong based on their surprise factor and were ineffective once scouted. For example, when I scout a 6 pool, I know how to respond and can prevent major losses if I don't make a stupid mistake. Fair enough.
But the 1/1/1 all-in, marine/scv all in, various rax-heavy all-ins, the roach-ling all in, etc. all require me to significantly outplay my opponent going for the surprise-based play even if I scout it.
There are many issues with scouting, but in general, something should be done to weaken 1 base play in HOTS. These builds aren't necessarily super-overpowered (except maybe the 1/1/1) but they should either take me by surprise and win or let me have a minor advantage when I'm defending them.
I hope in HOTS early scouting is improved for this reason so I can prepare ahead of time, rather than when my observer or hallucinated phoenix reaches their base at 7:40. I want to see warp gate become late game tech and Protoss units to get buffed, and this would be help because players could get early hallucination, thereby improving scouting. I want overlords to have some kind of suicide-run ability, where they get very fast for 15 seconds and then die (this will help zerg scout immensely). Terran imo have the best scouting and scouting barracks and reapers are able to scout at a reasonably early time (and scans are a good backup), but I wouldn't mind seeing a cheaper faster way for Terran to scout in HOTS.
And thirdly:
Why the hell does everything die so fast? Why do marauders, marines, colossi, lings, brood lords and AOE spells have to make engagements last 7 seconds rather than giving the player with the better micro more of a chance to sway the battle in his favor. It doesn't have to be WC3, but it really should have a greater element of large-army micro.
I hope this game is designed better in HOTS. I think the number of anti-micro abilities, the strength of one-base play, the lack of diversity in each race's respective tech tree, the fact that some tech trees are so much stronger than others, the ease of all-ins, the poorly designed harassment across all races, and the ridiculous quickness of engagements just make the game badly designed, and since Protoss is weak in all of these regards (except 1 base play obviously, zerg has the trouble there), Protoss will not be able to bounce back until HOTS is released. A new patch will only cover for bad game design, but might make the game more balanced for the moment at least.
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On August 19 2011 10:38 -orb- wrote:
Regardless of balance, fungal is bad for the game.
A spell that prevents your opponent from being able to do literally ANYTHING and turns the game into a 1 player game during battles is terrible for the health of this game.
...
In my opinion force fields do pretty much exactly the same thing. You just have to micro and split your units before the fight starts.
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On August 19 2011 10:10 Trealador wrote:
My only complaint about Colossi is the fact they are too good at fighting all ground. In my opinion Colossi should do reduced damage to armored but the same against light. That way Protoss can no longer just go colossus blindly to counter practically all other units on the ground when the Immortal is intended for killing armored.
I understand Colossi are tier 3, but they should be much less effective or a rewarding choice against heavy roach or marauder builds. Too many times Protoss blindly make colossi are are greatly effective when no other unit really has this luxury. For example a unit like the Thor. These are rarely produced blindly although they are very good units in a lot of situations. Blindly rushing to it will most of the time end with you being killed because zealots, marauders, and zealots/stalker clean them up so quickly. I understand vikings have a really easy counter which is air, but so do broodlords and I know people don't complain nearly as much about broodlords as they do colossi.
If this takes readjusting the cost of Immortals to compensate that would be fine by me. In all fairness it would probably help with the 1/1/1 all in making them a much more attractive choice early.
Just some thoughts.
Wow really? Try playing Toss and going colossus, then tell me how you feel about it.
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On August 19 2011 10:38 -orb- wrote:
Regardless of balance, fungal is bad for the game.
A spell that prevents your opponent from being able to do literally ANYTHING and turns the game into a 1 player game during battles is terrible for the health of this game.
Also, I think there's a clear problem lategame PvT with ghosts. Both snipe and EMP are range 10, while feedback is only range 9. You might say the micro is hard, but with perfect micro from the terran player you end up with this situation where it's literally impossible for the protoss to do anything.
Splitting templar doesn't help when the terran is good enough to double snipe every templar individually (i.e. see SlayerS.taeJa vs ZeNEX.Puzzle game 1 on Katrina AE from the iCCup Nationvoice Korean weekly week 7 semifinals). Since templar feedback range is shorter than the snipe range if the terran micros correctly like we see taeja do, there is literally no way for templar to beat ghosts.
The only option I can see for balance at the moment is putting templar in warp prisms, but this isn't viable due to terrans almost always having vikings with their army that will insta-gib your warp prisms.
as much as i hate to say it, i agree with you. Snipe range should be decreased atleast for the pure fact that theres no cast time, whilst there is one at EMP eventho its not alot it does have cast time, so im really not sure about the EMP being changed.
Fungal is as you say bad for the game, it prevents micro ect. Whilst Forcefield Can do the same, FF's actully Promotes (Not sure if correct word) Micro in the sense that ur able to avoid it/micro urself behind it, and other options. Also that it does + damage to almost the whole protoss arsenal lategame just makes it Stupid good, it has 3 spell's and all of them are usefull, they nullify Air harass/air play, They nullify Big tech units because of neural, and they Nullify the use of Speedlots lategame, With Blords/Ling support it makes the lings liturally just as cost effective as a Stalker lategame, 1 ling = 25minerals. U might say Templars are a good counter, but the fact is. to reach a Infestor that is in the back thats thrown a Neural parasite on ARchon/Collo, u have to have the templars infront of Your army-.- tanking all the dmg from Broodlings/lings. as you do this you have to Target your collosus on Non Broodlings whilst trying to Feedback infestors and Micro ur Stalkers into a position where you can hit the Broodlords. Imo this combo has to be nerfed in some way.
Sorry for bad english ect hopefully i dont make a retard of myself by throwing out the imba card, but i liturally do not know what to do. and from what iv seen from the progamers it feels the same. Idra on the other hand seems to think its pretty easy and stuff, but has yet to give an explination on how to beat such a lategame combo, so please dont follow him and Call protoss players retards for loosing/saying infestors are too strong.
LZ 
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On August 19 2011 10:54 Darclite wrote:
But second, the reason I find this so ironic is that I tallied up the [G] posts in the strategy section (75 posts to be exact, about a month and a half back, around the time when Protoss started to decline rapidly) and this is what I found:
8 PvP
9 PvZ
12 PvT
6 PvX
ROFL that's already 35/75, so about 50%
6 TvT
8 TvZ
5 TvP
5 TvX
So less innovation in every matchup, but 24's not an embarrassing amount, now Zerg:
5 ZvZ
3 ZvP
3 ZvT
5 ZvX
16, nice innovation Zergs!
Maybe it's because of the kind of play the zerg players are forced into. The protoss and terran players do kinda dictate how the game goes and the zerg player reacts accordingly. It's pretty hard to create a guide for a build for zerg players that is not for an all-in.
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On August 19 2011 11:03 Luppy1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2011 10:54 Darclite wrote:
But second, the reason I find this so ironic is that I tallied up the [G] posts in the strategy section (75 posts to be exact, about a month and a half back, around the time when Protoss started to decline rapidly) and this is what I found:
8 PvP
9 PvZ
12 PvT
6 PvX
ROFL that's already 35/75, so about 50%
6 TvT
8 TvZ
5 TvP
5 TvX
So less innovation in every matchup, but 24's not an embarrassing amount, now Zerg:
5 ZvZ
3 ZvP
3 ZvT
5 ZvX
16, nice innovation Zergs!
Maybe it's because of the kind of play the zerg players are forced into. The protoss and terran players do kinda dictate how the game goes and the zerg player reacts accordingly. It's pretty hard to create a guide for a build for zerg players that is not for an all-in.
Also, almost every zerg guide post is like 10 times longer and more well-written than anything I've seen out of the other two races. 
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On August 19 2011 10:10 Trealador wrote:
My only complaint about Colossi is the fact they are too good at fighting all ground. In my opinion Colossi should do reduced damage to armored but the same against light. That way Protoss can no longer just go colossus blindly to counter practically all other units on the ground when the Immortal is intended for killing armored.
I understand Colossi are tier 3, but they should be much less effective or a rewarding choice against heavy roach or marauder builds. Too many times Protoss blindly make colossi are are greatly effective when no other unit really has this luxury. For example a unit like the Thor. These are rarely produced blindly although they are very good units in a lot of situations. Blindly rushing to it will most of the time end with you being killed because zealots, marauders, and zealots/stalker clean them up so quickly. I understand vikings have a really easy counter which is air, but so do broodlords and I know people don't complain nearly as much about broodlords as they do colossi.
If this takes readjusting the cost of Immortals to compensate that would be fine by me. In all fairness it would probably help with the 1/1/1 all in making them a much more attractive choice early.
Just some thoughts.
As much as I would love to agree with this statement, I don't. Mass Marauder are so good against Protoss. Which I personally find pretty stupid. To nerf the collosi against Armored(Which i would love since I Mech in TvP) would make Marauders so good. Terran could forget all about vikings and mass pump straight Marauder Medic.
I would only agree to that change if and only if Marauders were made more like a 1 food glass cannon that's good against armored. Kind of like the firebat, but good against Armored.
They could even reduce the size of the marauder and make it a cute little bringer of terrible terrible damage.
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If fungal can't hit air...idk zerg late game will be ruined and complete shit again...
Late game TvZ is unwinnable right NOW for the Zerg if Terran goes Mech with 10-15 ghosts. If we couldn't even kill vikings with fungal the race would need serious buffs in other aspects.
Also, LOL at the people who say that infestors 'don't let you micro' the thing is, the micro you gota do is not getting hit by the spell. Snare effects exist and the whole point of them is to snare! This race has many melee units and need FG to be effective in many instances.
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EPT
