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On August 19 2011 10:23 beamer159 wrote:
What do people think about the idea of making Fungal Growth only affect ground units? This would nerf the ability that many players see as too strong, and it would encourage more air-based play in ZvX, which could make the Hydralisk more viable as well.
Plus, from a lore perspective, I always thought of Fungal Growth as fungus growing from the ground and tangling units in it, which is why they cannot move. This frame of thought doesn't make as much sense for air units.
Clearly someone doesn't know why Infestors got buffed in the first place. Good luck dealing with Void Ray/Colossus when your hydralisks die instantaneously and your corrupters are hard countered by void rays.
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Fungal is bad, Neural Parasite is even worst.
There's nothing other player can do if they can't stop the infestor. Can't micro or move, NP kill your own army anyway. That's very bad design for the game, one race could have 2 spells that neglect the ability of other opponent to control is terrible.
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On August 19 2011 11:30 tuho12345 wrote:
Fungal is bad, Neural Parasite is even worst.
There's nothing other player can do if they can't stop the infestor. Can't micro or move, NP kill your own army anyway. That's very bad design for the game, one race could have 2 spells that neglect the ability of other opponent to control is terrible.
How often are you going to see players neural parasiting High Templar? HT spells also outrange Fungal Growth so HT are definitely the way to go.
Watch Korean Protoss in PvZ.
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On August 19 2011 11:28 AustinCM wrote:
If fungal can't hit air...idk zerg late game will be ruined and complete shit again...
Late game TvZ is unwinnable right NOW for the Zerg if Terran goes Mech with 10-15 ghosts. If we couldn't even kill vikings with fungal the race would need serious buffs in other aspects.
Also, LOL at the people who say that infestors 'don't let you micro' the thing is, the micro you gota do is not getting hit by the spell. Snare effects exist and the whole point of them is to snare! This race has many melee units and need FG to be effective in many instances.
broodlords are excellent against terran mech, as well with fungals to deal with the ghosts + vikings.
i wouldnt mind if fungal hit only ground in ZvT and ZvP, its just that in ZvZ it would turn into speedlings + banelings into mad mutalisks like in broodwar. however cuz fungal can hit air players can go either mutalisks or infestors, which makes the game much more interesting and deeper (in my opinion).
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On August 19 2011 11:30 tuho12345 wrote:
Fungal is bad, Neural Parasite is even worst.
There's nothing other player can do if they can't stop the infestor. Can't micro or move, NP kill your own army anyway. That's very bad design for the game, one race could have 2 spells that neglect the ability of other opponent to control is terrible.
That's bullshit, NP encourages micro by virtue of being a channeled spell. Snipe the Infestor, get your unit back. Not to mention the zoning that Terran and Protoss get out of Siege Tanks and Colossi almost renders NP unusable anyway in its current form.
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In broodwar PvZ was considered imbalance in the lowest level which is protoss favored but in the highest level hence Bisu/Jaedong it was almost considered Zerg favored. (I think around 2008 or 2009) in the dark ages of protoss. So, If i was to be asked we just need to wait for another evolution of special tactics coming from the high level. (that's TvP)
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On August 19 2011 11:34 Bango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2011 11:28 AustinCM wrote:
If fungal can't hit air...idk zerg late game will be ruined and complete shit again...
Late game TvZ is unwinnable right NOW for the Zerg if Terran goes Mech with 10-15 ghosts. If we couldn't even kill vikings with fungal the race would need serious buffs in other aspects.
Also, LOL at the people who say that infestors 'don't let you micro' the thing is, the micro you gota do is not getting hit by the spell. Snare effects exist and the whole point of them is to snare! This race has many melee units and need FG to be effective in many instances. broodlords are excellent against terran mech, as well with fungals to deal with the ghosts + vikings. i wouldnt mind if fungal hit only ground in ZvT and ZvP, its just that in ZvZ it would turn into speedlings + banelings into mad mutalisks like in broodwar. however cuz fungal can hit air players can go either mutalisks or infestors, which makes the game much more interesting and deeper (in my opinion).
What's snipe? What's EMP?\
Snipe outranges brood lords and EMP could effectively nullify all our infestors
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I wonder what people have seen that make them think fungal is OP. I guess it's natural that a unit that was buffed and got from being almost never used to very common is perceived as overpowered.But I don't remember ever seeing engagements that made me think "this is bullshit the zerg should've never won!".
That being said, I think the 2 ideas of fungal only slowing, or it having a "bloom effect" seem very interesting, not necessarilly for balance but to add more micro and excitement to the game.
As for air units, as far as I can tell, against vikings the problem mostly comes from neural parasite (the one situation where it's very effective). They could change neural parasite to make it affect only ground, making infestor/broodlord much easier to manage with good splitting micro. And it might make units like the mothership or battlecruisers more useful, while not being a huge change that could destroy any matchup. What do you guys think?
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One thing I would like to see is perhaps the inability to warp-in Templars whether they be High Templars or Dark Templar. We can explain this lore wise by their advanced psionic abilities being impeded by the warp-in mechanism. This would help Protoss get rid of that horrible and useless Dark Shrine, and re-institute the Khaydarin Amulet (along with perhaps +50 energy). I'd also like to see Templars and Archons immune to Neural Parasite (certainly HT should be) as, again lore wise, it doesn't make sense that such advanced psionic beings can be so easily mind-controlled by a giant bug (unless you are Kerrigan, of course; she clearly isn't a bug).
The Immortal also needs to be reworked, as I think Blizzard have acknowledged. It is really a Gateway unit (the old Dragoon) being built out of the Robo. If this unit is nerfed in some way and buffed in some way (at least in terms of cost; 250/100 is way too expensive) then it can return to the Gateway, and perhaps form the core of a Gateway army in its original envisaged tanking role. This might also increase the small unit efficiency of Protoss armies with more Zealots, Immortals, Sentries on the fie;d. This would also mean that Protoss can finally use the Robo to blanket the map with observers and free up room for Warp Prism use before the Colossus becomes available.
Just some thoughts regarding Protoss from a Protoss player.
Edit/ Just to clarify, I don't think Infestor NP of HT is a real concern; certainly I've never seen it happen. My comment is more from a game and lore perspective which would, I think, add a nice tweak to the game - although a NP'ed HT which then feedbacked all his fellow templar would be a nightmare for Protoss. Good on Zerg though if he is able to pull it off.
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i think it just needs to go back to how infestors were used as a support caster not the battle mage that it is right now. zerg is supposed to swarm the enemy not fungal, run away, fungal, run away, repeat. people want to play the swarm so i believe in light of that fungal should keep its ability to hold the units but just not deal so much damage. perhaps keep the armor damage and make it significantly weaker against light units? zerg has plenty enough options for dealing with zealots/marines/zerglings i think this would help some.
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On August 19 2011 11:33 Joey Wheeler wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2011 11:30 tuho12345 wrote:
Fungal is bad, Neural Parasite is even worst.
There's nothing other player can do if they can't stop the infestor. Can't micro or move, NP kill your own army anyway. That's very bad design for the game, one race could have 2 spells that neglect the ability of other opponent to control is terrible. How often are you going to see players neural parasiting High Templar? HT spells also outrange Fungal Growth so HT are definitely the way to go. Watch Korean Protoss in PvZ.
sorry bro... HT spells do not out range infestor spells.
feedback, storm, fungal and neural all have a range of 9.
if both side mirco perfectly the HT get fungaled before they are in range of the infestors because fungal has a radius of 2 extending the range.
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On August 19 2011 10:10 Trealador wrote:
My only complaint about Colossi is the fact they are too good at fighting all ground. In my opinion Colossi should do reduced damage to armored but the same against light. That way Protoss can no longer just go colossus blindly to counter practically all other units on the ground when the Immortal is intended for killing armored.
I understand Colossi are tier 3, but they should be much less effective or a rewarding choice against heavy roach or marauder builds. Too many times Protoss blindly make colossi are are greatly effective when no other unit really has this luxury. For example a unit like the Thor. These are rarely produced blindly although they are very good units in a lot of situations. Blindly rushing to it will most of the time end with you being killed because zealots, marauders, and zealots/stalker clean them up so quickly. I understand vikings have a really easy counter which is air, but so do broodlords and I know people don't complain nearly as much about broodlords as they do colossi.
If this takes readjusting the cost of Immortals to compensate that would be fine by me. In all fairness it would probably help with the 1/1/1 all in making them a much more attractive choice early.
Just some thoughts.
Can't agree with this at all unfortunately - this isn't a balance whine but marauders are already way too strong against protoss as is, a cost buff to immortals would make absolutely no difference if marine dps/ghost emp's remain unchanged.
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On August 19 2011 10:10 Trealador wrote:
My only complaint about Colossi is the fact they are too good at fighting all ground. In my opinion Colossi should do reduced damage to armored but the same against light. That way Protoss can no longer just go colossus blindly to counter practically all other units on the ground when the Immortal is intended for killing armored.
I understand Colossi are tier 3, but they should be much less effective or a rewarding choice against heavy roach or marauder builds. Too many times Protoss blindly make colossi are are greatly effective when no other unit really has this luxury. For example a unit like the Thor. These are rarely produced blindly although they are very good units in a lot of situations. Blindly rushing to it will most of the time end with you being killed because zealots, marauders, and zealots/stalker clean them up so quickly. I understand vikings have a really easy counter which is air, but so do broodlords and I know people don't complain nearly as much about broodlords as they do colossi.
If this takes readjusting the cost of Immortals to compensate that would be fine by me. In all fairness it would probably help with the 1/1/1 all in making them a much more attractive choice early.
Just some thoughts.
Honestly, I haven't seen anyone complain about colossi since the deathball era earlier this year. In any case, I couldn't disagree with you more. There is a reason why Protosses get colossi against marauders/roaches rather than immortals - it's because immortals are complete garbage in anything other than small engagements. Even with a reduced cost their application would remain highly limited due to their slow speed and poor range. Gimping the colossus would leave Protosses with no recourse to challenge marauder/roach balls.
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On August 19 2011 11:35 Licmyobelisk wrote:
In broodwar PvZ was considered imbalance in the lowest level which is protoss favored but in the highest level hence Bisu/Jaedong it was almost considered Zerg favored. (I think around 2008 or 2009) in the dark ages of protoss. So, If i was to be asked we just need to wait for another evolution of special tactics coming from the high level. (that's TvP)
I liked the way Mc played against Bomber in Dreamhack and against Terrans at Mlg. This new templar tech style can work but Terrans are just rolling it with ghost.
He would do a 1 gate/3 gate sentry heavy expand. Get a robo just for observers Then go forge/twilight for blink. Used observer and blink to deal with drops and get map control. Went up to 6 gates and started getting colossus/charge. After that it was just spending minerals on zealot warp ins and saving gas for templar tech/upgrades.
His style was so good because he would get like 2 colossus and have charge/blink/storm/range done way before max.. Nowadays P just max at 200-200 zealots and die because the terran rolls the low tech army and kills you before colossus pop.
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Maybe take away infestor burrow movement? idk. Its just so frustrating when 5 infestors sneak into a 3rd or whatever, puke up a bunch of infested terran, kill a mineral like, maybe even the command center itself, and it costed them nothing but energy to do.
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On August 19 2011 12:05 MaestrO_ wrote:
Maybe take away infestor burrow movement? idk. Its just so frustrating when 5 infestors sneak into a 3rd or whatever, puke up a bunch of infested terran, kill a mineral like, maybe even the command center itself, and it costed them nothing but energy to do.
Just because something is frustrating does not mean it's imbalanced. What justification is there for taking away infestor burrow movement that doesn't also apply to cloaked banshees or other forms of harass?
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On August 19 2011 12:05 MaestrO_ wrote:
Maybe take away infestor burrow movement? idk. Its just so frustrating when 5 infestors sneak into a 3rd or whatever, puke up a bunch of infested terran, kill a mineral like, maybe even the command center itself, and it costed them nothing but energy to do.
I have no issue with this. If you have no detection in your mineral line then, frankly speaking, you deserve to lose all of your workers. The same thing will happen if you let a DT in, or burrowed roaches, or a banshee.
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On August 19 2011 11:45 aZealot wrote:
The Immortal also needs to be reworked, as I think Blizzard have acknowledged. It is really a Gateway unit (the old Dragoon) being built out of the Robo. If this unit is nerfed in some way and buffed in some way (at least in terms of cost; 250/100 is way too expensive) then it can return to the Gateway, and perhaps form the core of a Gateway army in its original envisaged tanking role. This might also increase the small unit efficiency of Protoss armies with more Zealots, Immortals, Sentries on the fie;d. This would also mean that Protoss can finally use the Robo to blanket the map with observers and free up room for Warp Prism use before the Colossus becomes available.
Just some thoughts regarding Protoss from a Protoss player.
I agree completely, I think Immortals should be moved to the Gateway, heavily readjusted, and made as more of a tanking unit. On the other hand, the Sentry should take its place in the Robo Facility, with a reduced build time to compensate.
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Im not complaining about infestor balance but i saw it was being discussed so i was just mentioning something, i dont think they're overpowered
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On August 19 2011 12:08 GreatestThreat wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2011 12:05 MaestrO_ wrote:
Maybe take away infestor burrow movement? idk. Its just so frustrating when 5 infestors sneak into a 3rd or whatever, puke up a bunch of infested terran, kill a mineral like, maybe even the command center itself, and it costed them nothing but energy to do. Just because something is frustrating does not mean it's imbalanced. What justification is there for taking away infestor burrow movement that doesn't also apply to cloaked banshees or other forms of harass?
Im not complaining about infestor balance but i saw it was being discussed so i was just mentioning something, i dont think they're overpowered
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EPT
