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On August 19 2011 12:05 MaestrO_ wrote:
Maybe take away infestor burrow movement? idk. Its just so frustrating when 5 infestors sneak into a 3rd or whatever, puke up a bunch of infested terran, kill a mineral like, maybe even the command center itself, and it costed them nothing but energy to do.
I find that I need to have observers everywhere. Well, not everywhere, but in key places where observers are needed to check for that shit, plus they are super useful for scouting. And your third should always have cannons by it also. I don't know for terran though.
I do think, however, that the burrowed movement should be an upgrade, as it is so good there should be a price for it.
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On August 19 2011 12:14 GreatestThreat wrote:
If anything, infested terrans might need a look at, since zerg players have started using them a lot more recently and people are realizing they're quite strong for costing nothing but energy.
Yeah but its a pretty big investment depending on what stage the game is at.
If you get 4-7 infestors in the early mid game and you wait for burrow and full energy so you can spam infested terrans, once the attack is over, zerg are very vulnerable since they wont have anything but say a bunch of lings of a handful of roaches/banes/mutas... whatever other gas unit.
Infested terrans also are extremely slow, even on creep and they dont live very long either.
It is a great tactic for harassing new bases punishing your opponent for not building turrets or cannons and if they use IT to take down the cannons/turrets then its a win for them.
Players like Destiny sing them in a timing attack is kind of a gimmick, and im sure he will agree. Its all about scouting if your opponent has a robo fac but even then cannons with units can shutdown the attack.
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Its not that infestors are op. Its just that Terran doesn't have an adequate answer to infestor / broodlord besides mass ghost.
Against good players vikings get neuraled, Thors get neuraled, BCs get neuraled, so any of these units you use against Zerg become a liability.
If Terran had science vessels, you would only need like 5 of them and you could use them to irradiate (default range is longer than neural) and take out specialised units. Hell I would even trade marauders for them (well I never use them anyway until ultras are out), as they would make mech more viable, and you would be able to take out ultras with them.
Ghosts are simply too immobile (and they can't detect obvs), and cloaked ghosts are easy to stop with fungal or mass lings with an overseer. Science Vessels can go around the back to pick off units, ghosts you have to butt heads from the front so you are left with deciding the game in one engagement.
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On August 19 2011 12:35 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2011 11:43 MilesTeg wrote:
I wonder what people have seen that make them think fungal is OP. I guess it's natural that a unit that was buffed and got from being almost never used to very common is perceived as overpowered.But I don't remember ever seeing engagements that made me think "this is bullshit the zerg should've never won!". It's not fungal so much as the infestor's utiity in general, and it's not because it creates situations where Z wins retardedly when they shouldn't. It's just that it's viable, even needed, against just about every composition. Fungal rapes large numbers of small units, while NP counters small numbers of heavy units. Fungal denies harass, decloaks, denies positioning, denies retreat. burrow-move infestors have tremendous harass tools as well as the speed and mobility to do that unsupported, and straight-up IT spam in any situation is surprisingly powerful. The infestor just does everything, but obviously a blanket nerf is crazy. The unit is strong precisely because it has to be strong for Z to compete in a ton of different situations. I just feel like it's disproportionately important to Z mid/late game. I struggle to think of a situation in which I wouldn't want infestors as Z, and perhaps that suggests the unit - the unit, not the race - is a little broken.
There's nothing wrong with a high tech unit being solid in many situations IMO. It is true that if the game goes long enough, I usually end up making infestors because it is possibly the best zerg unit in an actual fight between armies (most of the time anyway). But it's rarely my first tech choice.
I think a lot of people overrate a lot of these infestor uses. The harrassment is nice in very long games if the opponent spreads out, but it's not that great either. You're risking a lot of gas, and your opponent will most likely have cannons or turrets. The infestor is not that good at defending against harrass, especially after the FG duration change, and since as zerg you usually want to expand everywhere, teching straight to infestors makes you more vulnerable to drops. Finally, neural parasite is just not as good as people think. It easy to snipe the infestor in most scenarios, especially against a protoss deathball.
I think the reason it is so good is that it is the best unit to capitalize on a strong economy, that's why it goes so well with the zerg macro styles. It's the only spellcaster that gets better if you make more of them. You never want to make 12 HTs or ghosts, but you might want to make 12 infestors because it's a relatively short burst of damage that you can spam. But you won't get as much out of a couple infestors compared to the other casters.
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On August 19 2011 14:30 sluggaslamoo wrote:
Its not that infestors are op. Its just that Terran doesn't have an adequate answer to infestor / broodlord besides mass ghost.
Against good players vikings get neuraled, Thors get neuraled, BCs get neuraled, so any of these units you use against Zerg become a liability.
If Terran had science vessels, you would only need like 5 of them and you could use them to irradiate (default range is longer than neural) and take out specialised units. Hell I would even trade marauders for them (well I never use them anyway until ultras are out), as they would make mech more viable, and you would be able to take out ultras with them.
Ghosts are simply too immobile (and they can't detect obvs), and cloaked ghosts are easy to stop with fungal or mass lings with an overseer. Science Vessels can go around the back to pick off units, ghosts you have to butt heads from the front so you are left with deciding the game in one engagement.
Kill infestors with cloaked ghosts, if hes morphing overseers, snipe them. Have you played Zerg?
What you gonna do without infestors/fungal against a good Terran armycompostion, building masszerglings because you have no gas/infestors? I ve read your post and i think you never really used ghosts against infestors, like this guy who is loosing the game after his first push failed horribly and then after the first fungal hit he starts flaming about how OP fungal is.
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Infestors are proving to be central to every z match up. Once you get like 8+ of them you can delay a fight indefinately while dealing significant damage, and you can neural any key units. Ideally we could move away from having armies centered around a small number of expensive units as this sort of composition is inherently unstable.
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On August 19 2011 14:38 MilesTeg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2011 12:35 Belisarius wrote:On August 19 2011 11:43 MilesTeg wrote:
I wonder what people have seen that make them think fungal is OP. I guess it's natural that a unit that was buffed and got from being almost never used to very common is perceived as overpowered.But I don't remember ever seeing engagements that made me think "this is bullshit the zerg should've never won!". It's not fungal so much as the infestor's utiity in general, and it's not because it creates situations where Z wins retardedly when they shouldn't. It's just that it's viable, even needed, against just about every composition. Fungal rapes large numbers of small units, while NP counters small numbers of heavy units. Fungal denies harass, decloaks, denies positioning, denies retreat. burrow-move infestors have tremendous harass tools as well as the speed and mobility to do that unsupported, and straight-up IT spam in any situation is surprisingly powerful. The infestor just does everything, but obviously a blanket nerf is crazy. The unit is strong precisely because it has to be strong for Z to compete in a ton of different situations. I just feel like it's disproportionately important to Z mid/late game. I struggle to think of a situation in which I wouldn't want infestors as Z, and perhaps that suggests the unit - the unit, not the race - is a little broken. There's nothing wrong with a high tech unit being solid in many situations IMO. It is true that if the game goes long enough, I usually end up making infestors because it is possibly the best zerg unit in an actual fight between armies (most of the time anyway). But it's rarely my first tech choice. I think a lot of people overrate a lot of these infestor uses. The harrassment is nice in very long games if the opponent spreads out, but it's not that great either. You're risking a lot of gas, and your opponent will most likely have cannons or turrets. The infestor is not that good at defending against harrass, especially after the FG duration change, and since as zerg you usually want to expand everywhere, teching straight to infestors makes you more vulnerable to drops. Finally, neural parasite is just not as good as people think. It easy to snipe the infestor in most scenarios, especially against a protoss deathball. I think the reason it is so good is that it is the best unit to capitalize on a strong economy, that's why it goes so well with the zerg macro styles. It's the only spellcaster that gets better if you make more of them. You never want to make 12 HTs or ghosts, but you might want to make 12 infestors because it's a relatively short burst of damage that you can spam. But you won't get as much out of a couple infestors compared to the other casters.
Why dont you wanna make 12 HT or ghosts if you can afford the gas? Its no difference, ghosts make good dps and HT morph to archons....
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On August 19 2011 09:04 Mr.X wrote:
- Marine: Changes in the Marines are often rejected in full, since it is a very basic unit and practically the core of the Terran. The changes have drastic effects, but here's my idea.
The Marines micromanaging seems very easy compared to other units of the game, even more if we go back to the original StarCraft. Blizzard included a patch in the past where changing attack speed and damage Ultralisks. This change was not nearly a nerf nor a buff, because mathematically the DPS of Ultralisks don't decreased or increased. My idea is to make a similar change in the Marines. Increase the damage, but slow down the attack. Thus the micromanagement would be a little more difficult. This would prevent some Marine vs. X being so easily avoided by the less skilled Terran players.
I don't really agree with this, solely because the Marine mechanic works quite cleverly. If you're too fast on kiting the Marine does less damage. Increasing the attack time and damage would make it EASIER to kite with them as it'd require less skillful timings.
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On August 19 2011 12:59 Trealador wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2011 11:24 GinDo wrote:On August 19 2011 10:10 Trealador wrote:
My only complaint about Colossi is the fact they are too good at fighting all ground. In my opinion Colossi should do reduced damage to armored but the same against light. That way Protoss can no longer just go colossus blindly to counter practically all other units on the ground when the Immortal is intended for killing armored.
I understand Colossi are tier 3, but they should be much less effective or a rewarding choice against heavy roach or marauder builds. Too many times Protoss blindly make colossi are are greatly effective when no other unit really has this luxury. For example a unit like the Thor. These are rarely produced blindly although they are very good units in a lot of situations. Blindly rushing to it will most of the time end with you being killed because zealots, marauders, and zealots/stalker clean them up so quickly. I understand vikings have a really easy counter which is air, but so do broodlords and I know people don't complain nearly as much about broodlords as they do colossi.
If this takes readjusting the cost of Immortals to compensate that would be fine by me. In all fairness it would probably help with the 1/1/1 all in making them a much more attractive choice early.
Just some thoughts. As much as I would love to agree with this statement, I don't. Mass Marauder are so good against Protoss. Which I personally find pretty stupid. To nerf the collosi against Armored(Which i would love since I Mech in TvP) would make Marauders so good. Terran could forget all about vikings and mass pump straight Marauder Medic. I would only agree to that change if and only if Marauders were made more like a 1 food glass cannon that's good against armored. Kind of like the firebat, but good against Armored. They could even reduce the size of the marauder and make it a cute little bringer of terrible terrible damage. What I am hearing is Protoss crying that because Colossus don't carry their entire army with 1 tech they thinks it's underpowered. If you read the post I was saying, why does a unit that does insane damage versus light also do very very well against armored? Isn't that what the Immortal is for? I think we can all agree that any further comments about EMP vs Feedback/Storm has been beaten to death in this thread and should really no longer be brought up. Also, we understand the 1/1/1 is fairly broken, so unless you have a strategy that you think will counter it, please keep the uproar to yourself. Again it's been beaten to death and while I agree it may be overpowered I don't like reading it every other post. Thanks.
No need to get so angry about it. No one's crying, we're just pointing out that Protoss would get rolled by marauder/roach without the colossus. The immortal is all well and good in small engagements but it's God-awful in large engagements due to its terrible range and movement speed. If you nerfed the colossus against armoured units, all we'd see in TvP is pre-emptive MMG spam.
Also, as a Protoss, I disagree that 1/1/1 is overpowered. It may require a disproportionate amount of effort on the Protoss to hold off - but that, in itself is not grounds for crying 'imbalance'.
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On August 19 2011 11:46 JiYan wrote:
i think it just needs to go back to how infestors were used as a support caster not the battle mage that it is right now. zerg is supposed to swarm the enemy not fungal, run away, fungal, run away, repeat. people want to play the swarm so i believe in light of that fungal should keep its ability to hold the units but just not deal so much damage. perhaps keep the armor damage and make it significantly weaker against light units? zerg has plenty enough options for dealing with zealots/marines/zerglings i think this would help some.
Yeah, except swarm style becomes useless at a certain point when T and P armies get too cost effective. Zerg needs infestors (especially against toss) in order to be on par with the strength of late-game deathball armies. To be honest, I don't even like using infestors, as they always seemed so slow and expensive, and I'd like to play zerg swarm style as well, but the way the other units are now this is impossible.
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Right now, I believe it's still a little too early to say something about the infestor and fungal growth. This is the same concept with Day[9] about the Cruncher upset in the TSL where he beat both Mondragon & Idra.
From my own perspective, as playing a terran in master league 1v1, and master league random in team games, fungal as a spell is easier to manage than EMP. Now don't take my words out of context, I mean managing, not necessarily casting and getting off the "money" shots. The reason Terrans complain about the TvP matchup as well is because of the fact that late-game TvP is all about damage control especially if you're going for the standard bioball + ghost + Viking.
The protoss army contains 2 major damage dealers: Colossus & High Templar. In response to this, terran has to cut away from DPS M&M for viking which reduces overall damage output, just to mitigate the damage colossus do. Likewise, ghosts will further cut away from this damage dealing centre to mitigate high templar damage. Regardless, these two will deal their damage (this is a false theory however, since ghosts do shield damage, which is often neglected by terran players). Medivacs can only do so much, especially since there is undoubtedly zealots, stalkers, and sentries dealing more damage on top of that. All protoss needs to do is make sure they get off one or two storms, which are damage outputs, and not something like ghosts, which prevent damage being dealt. Even on the offensive, terran is playing defensive.
The whole point of the protoss argument is that it reflects on the Zerg side with infestors and fungal growth vs ghost + emp. You get brood lords, again, terran must go vikings to take away from marine/tank. You get infestors, same concept, terran must take away from marine/tank just to mitigate the damage done to their own army. You can see why terrans complain; I'm not giving an excuse to myself, I am simply saying that the tunnel vision is on the fact that damage output from marine/tank is being mitigated nonetheless just to mitigate damage being dealt to the already "Fragile" & "weakened" numbers left from the originally desired marine-tank numbers.
Again, this isn't me making an excuse as to not build ghosts. I clearly think ghosts are the counter, but with the current matchups, standard marine-tank is such a solidified BO, that its hard for players to deviate and implement ghosts into the BO. There's no need to call these players noobs, reactors are the sought add-on for barracks, except for maybe the couple tech labs for shield & stim. However, I agree, terran players are jumping to conclusions way too fast. Infestors are a very big investment, especially with the heavy harass options terran has. It is also very easy for terran to force compositions on the zerg as well, however this is a very well known concept to zerg, as it is viewed as the reactionary race.
What I believe is fucking up the match-up is the infested terran from the infestor, not the fungal growth. I believe fungal growth is an immensely powerful, but immensely needed tool for zerg. However, the infested terrans damage output for a 25 energy unit, is absolutely insane. I mean, it does slightly less than the marine unstimmed, but the fact that it has higher direct damage, makes it a much more viable unit for sniping structures. When you're going for ranged upgrades, this makes the ranged attack even stronger, making it snipe bases at a really fast rate. I don't believe casters should have the ability to destroy buildings the way infestors with infested terrans do. For comparison's sake, the raven's auto turret costs 50 energy, takes 4 blocks (so it needs open space to be casted), for the same damage. Of course, I'm not comparing the auto turret to try and say the auto turret should do more, but I'm trying to say the infested terran should do similar damage. Unlike the auto turret, the infested terran is an infantry/bio unit so it can deal way more damage in groups, since you can have much more firing at the same targets. Their slow-move ability also allows them to spread their damage once their target is destroyed. While you won't generally see this at the top level of plays, a few infestors dropped in the back of a base can do a serious amount of damage with the proper amount of energy. Not with fungal growth, but with shift-casting infested terrans so that you can have each infestor throw down all their energy's worth of infested terrans instantly, destroying structures before reinforcements can arrive. Unlike drop-based attacks from other races, infestors take only 6 supply, so the zerg army can be positioned elsewhere, while a main-army level threat is being posed in wherever the infestors were dropped. Protoss currently has a counter to this with Psionic storms, but terrans do not, other than "dont let them in, in the first place". Of course I guess a proper counter to that would be to seriously "not let them in" since a current problem may be that terrans need to improve upon proper detection mechanics, but I seriously think the infested terran does too much damage.
A good example of this would be Destiny's infestor use. While this may be a another eye-roller moment since im referring to this player, I seriously don't think top level koreans know how to use infestors as well as Destiny does (not saying Destiny > Korean or Korean < Destiny). While I am a Destiny fan, I am not one of his biggest followers, I just enjoy watching his games occasionally (thus calling myself a fan). He really knows how to use every spell of the infestor to its up-most potential.
Now, I think a proper change to this would be to reduce the infested terrans damage to 5, still allowing upgrades from the ranged weapons. This way, the proper IMMEDIATe counter to the infested terran would be to invest in the building armor upgrade from terran, while the zerg could counter that with improved ranged weapon upgrades. This way, the infested terrans could still pose a threat, requiring terrans to invest in zoning off entrances with detection, but not causing unpreventable damage. In terms of the infestor as a damage dealer against air, I believe fungal growths dmg. vs. armored buff combined with 5 dmg is sufficient enough to be the same.
Another suggestion I would make is to keep the damage the same, but reduce the time infested terrans have to stay alive drastically, so that it can still deal spike-damage, but not on the level of HQ sniping.
I personally see infested terrans as a loophole against tanks in the TvZ matchup, but they do much more than just that.
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On August 19 2011 15:53 Kingqway wrote:
Right now, I believe it's still a little too early to say something about the infestor and fungal growth. This is the same concept with Day[9] about the Cruncher upset in the TSL where he beat both Mondragon & Idra.
From my own perspective, as playing a terran in master league 1v1, and master league random in team games, fungal as a spell is easier to manage than EMP. Now don't take my words out of context, I mean managing, not necessarily casting and getting off the "money" shots. The reason Terrans complain about the TvP matchup as well is because of the fact that late-game TvP is all about damage control especially if you're going for the standard bioball + ghost + Viking.
The protoss army contains 2 major damage dealers: Colossus & High Templar. In response to this, terran has to cut away from DPS M&M for viking which reduces overall damage output, just to mitigate the damage colossus do. Likewise, ghosts will further cut away from this damage dealing centre to mitigate high templar damage. Regardless, these two will deal their damage (this is a false theory however, since ghosts do shield damage, which is often neglected by terran players). Medivacs can only do so much, especially since there is undoubtedly zealots, stalkers, and sentries dealing more damage on top of that. All protoss needs to do is make sure they get off one or two storms, which are damage outputs, and not something like ghosts, which prevent damage being dealt. Even on the offensive, terran is playing defensive.
The whole point of the protoss argument is that it reflects on the Zerg side with infestors and fungal growth vs ghost + emp. You get brood lords, again, terran must go vikings to take away from marine/tank. You get infestors, same concept, terran must take away from marine/tank just to mitigate the damage done to their own army. You can see why terrans complain; I'm not giving an excuse to myself, I am simply saying that the tunnel vision is on the fact that damage output from marine/tank is being mitigated nonetheless just to mitigate damage being dealt to the already "Fragile" & "weakened" numbers left from the originally desired marine-tank numbers.
Again, this isn't me making an excuse as to not build ghosts. I clearly think ghosts are the counter, but with the current matchups, standard marine-tank is such a solidified BO, that its hard for players to deviate and implement ghosts into the BO. There's no need to call these players noobs, reactors are the sought add-on for barracks, except for maybe the couple tech labs for shield & stim. However, I agree, terran players are jumping to conclusions way too fast. Infestors are a very big investment, especially with the heavy harass options terran has. It is also very easy for terran to force compositions on the zerg as well, however this is a very well known concept to zerg, as it is viewed as the reactionary race.
What I believe is fucking up the match-up is the infested terran from the infestor, not the fungal growth. I believe fungal growth is an immensely powerful, but immensely needed tool for zerg. However, the infested terrans damage output for a 25 energy unit, is absolutely insane. I mean, it does slightly less than the marine unstimmed, but the fact that it has higher direct damage, makes it a much more viable unit for sniping structures. When you're going for ranged upgrades, this makes the ranged attack even stronger, making it snipe bases at a really fast rate. I don't believe casters should have the ability to destroy buildings the way infestors with infested terrans do. For comparison's sake, the raven's auto turret costs 50 energy, takes 4 blocks (so it needs open space to be casted), for the same damage. Of course, I'm not comparing the auto turret to try and say the auto turret should do more, but I'm trying to say the infested terran should do similar damage. Unlike the auto turret, the infested terran is an infantry/bio unit so it can deal way more damage in groups, since you can have much more firing at the same targets. Their slow-move ability also allows them to spread their damage once their target is destroyed. While you won't generally see this at the top level of plays, a few infestors dropped in the back of a base can do a serious amount of damage with the proper amount of energy. Not with fungal growth, but with shift-casting infested terrans so that you can have each infestor throw down all their energy's worth of infested terrans instantly, destroying structures before reinforcements can arrive. Unlike drop-based attacks from other races, infestors take only 6 supply, so the zerg army can be positioned elsewhere, while a main-army level threat is being posed in wherever the infestors were dropped. Protoss currently has a counter to this with Psionic storms, but terrans do not, other than "dont let them in, in the first place". Of course I guess a proper counter to that would be to seriously "not let them in" since a current problem may be that terrans need to improve upon proper detection mechanics, but I seriously think the infested terran does too much damage.
A good example of this would be Destiny's infestor use. While this may be a another eye-roller moment since im referring to this player, I seriously don't think top level koreans know how to use infestors as well as Destiny does (not saying Destiny > Korean or Korean < Destiny). While I am a Destiny fan, I am not one of his biggest followers, I just enjoy watching his games occasionally (thus calling myself a fan). He really knows how to use every spell of the infestor to its up-most potential.
Now, I think a proper change to this would be to reduce the infested terrans damage to 5, still allowing upgrades from the ranged weapons. This way, the proper IMMEDIATe counter to the infested terran would be to invest in the building armor upgrade from terran, while the zerg could counter that with improved ranged weapon upgrades. This way, the infested terrans could still pose a threat, requiring terrans to invest in zoning off entrances with detection, but not causing unpreventable damage. In terms of the infestor as a damage dealer against air, I believe fungal growths dmg. vs. armored buff combined with 5 dmg is sufficient enough to be the same.
Another suggestion I would make is to keep the damage the same, but reduce the time infested terrans have to stay alive drastically, so that it can still deal spike-damage, but not on the level of HQ sniping.
I personally see infested terrans as a loophole against tanks in the TvZ matchup, but they do much more than just that.
I find infestors fun to watch and play. They are made of glass, so you have to be very carefull. But if you use them well, you can do a lot of good stuff. Isn't that what we wanted, isn't it better than ball-to-ball fight? I find infestors one of the best unit in the game and we need more of that.
Got problem with infested terrans?place cannon, pf, spine crawlers.
Got problem with fungal? spread your army.
Colossi, corruptors, marauders are the ones that we need to discuss.
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What I believe is fucking up the match-up is the infested terran from the infestor, not the fungal growth. I believe fungal growth is an immensely powerful, but immensely needed tool for zerg. However, the infested terrans damage output for a 25 energy unit, is absolutely insane. I mean, it does slightly less than the marine unstimmed, but the fact that it has higher direct damage, makes it a much more viable unit for sniping structures.
I'd strongly disagree with this. Given how slow they move, even with high dps they can only nuke a building or two, and they have to get to the target building to do so. They can nuke an expo fast, sure. But so can stimmed marines/marauders in a medivac. It's frustrating, but I just don't see how it is at all imbalanced.
EDIT: Also, does the infested egg have the light armor type, or is it just the terran after it hatches? Just wondering if BF hellions would ever be useful against them.
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On August 19 2011 17:22 Haydin wrote: Show nested quote +What I believe is fucking up the match-up is the infested terran from the infestor, not the fungal growth. I believe fungal growth is an immensely powerful, but immensely needed tool for zerg. However, the infested terrans damage output for a 25 energy unit, is absolutely insane. I mean, it does slightly less than the marine unstimmed, but the fact that it has higher direct damage, makes it a much more viable unit for sniping structures. I'd strongly disagree with this. Given how slow they move, even with high dps they can only nuke a building or two, and they have to get to the target building to do so. They can nuke an expo fast, sure. But so can stimmed marines/marauders in a medivac. It's frustrating, but I just don't see how it is at all imbalanced. EDIT: Also, does the infested egg have the light armor type, or is it just the terran after it hatches? Just wondering if BF hellions would ever be useful against them.
Eggs are not light, only the hatched IT are.
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On August 19 2011 13:54 Supamang wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2011 12:39 TimeSpiral wrote:On August 19 2011 12:35 Belisarius wrote:On August 19 2011 11:43 MilesTeg wrote:
I wonder what people have seen that make them think fungal is OP. I guess it's natural that a unit that was buffed and got from being almost never used to very common is perceived as overpowered.But I don't remember ever seeing engagements that made me think "this is bullshit the zerg should've never won!". It's not fungal so much as the infestor's utiity in general, and it's not because it creates situations where Z wins retardedly when they shouldn't. It's just that it's viable, even needed, against just about every composition. Fungal rapes large numbers of small units, while NP counters small numbers of heavy units. Fungal denies harass, decloaks, denies positioning, denies retreat. IT + burrow or fungal + burrow, has tremendous harass potential as well as the speed and mobility to do that unsupported, and IT spam in any situation is surprisingly powerful. The infestor just does everything. Obviously a straight-up nerf is crazy, though. The unit is so strong because it has to be so strong for Z to compete in a ton of different situations. But perhaps the unit - the unit, not the race - is a little broken. It's not that it can't be countered, it's just that I struggle to think of a situation in which I wouldn't want infestors as Z. I would certainly agree that the infestor is broken. Infested Terran and NP can attack air. They should have stuck to their guns and nerfed FG being able to attack air. It was ridiculous that they back-peddled on that just because of Zerg tears. They were actually trying to nerf the infestor for several months, then decided a buff was probably better ... lol. Infestors are the only good anti air that Zerg really have. Terrans have cost efficient and powerful AA with marines and vikings. Protoss have very mobile AA with high utility with their blink stalks and phoenix. What do zerg have? Corruptors, whos corruption ability is hardly comparable to graviton beam and being able to land. They have hydras, who are expensive and un-stimmable versions of marines AND cant get medivac support. Queens too, but they are even more immobile than the hydras. Infested Terrans are only good AA in conjuction with Fungal. Any opponent will see the eggs and be lightyears away by the time they hatch. While making them run has its merits, its nothing compared to killing ability. Fix Zerg AA and I would be completely fine with FG not being able to hit air
Concerning Zerg's AA. In your analysis, did you forget the Mutalisk? The Mutalisk is far and away the best all-purpose flyer: It's super fast, moderately priced, mass-produceable from a gassless production structure, attacks multiple units with each attack, attack upgrades are 3 times as effective, and Zerg is the only race where mass air is considered standard play.
I'd hardly say claiming Zerg has weak AA in defense of Fungal hitting air units is a viable argument.
And not that it is a big deal, really, but the hydra already does more DPS than a stimmed marine. It's just a different unit altogether. It's a little bigger, gets a better range, can burrow, has more health, buts its a little slower than usual off creep and is obviously more expensive than a Marine. Even if you want to make that whacky comparison, you have to factor in the costs of Medivacs with a Barracks army that is going to use Stim (the only ability in the game that costs health to use).
I do not think you can defend Fungal Growth's anti-air ability with a "Zerg has weak AA in general" argument without including the Muta, which essentially beats every air unit in the game cost for cost besides the Phoenix (maybe not BCs or Carriers, but, rofl, come on now ...). Am I wrong in requiring the inclusion of the Muta in this argument?
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I am currently stuck in diamond and cant get up to masters because every PvT of mine my opponent 1-1-1 allin or mass mech, which is too hard to deal with for protoss at this level.
Im quitting till someone finds a solution because i cant find one.
and its not fun to just autolose every PvT
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The reason protoss gets so much hate is because you hold the pace and aggression of the game. Protoss has the tech pace as a general rule. If you have storms and terran doesn't have EMP they lose. If you have colossus and there are no vikings generally you will roll the terran army. Terran have early timings protoss have mid-late timings. You have a standard unit you get from a gateway to counter early pressure, we have to tech to get it. Partly the reason why many say protoss takes no skill, you can blindly counter things because your gateway units are so versatile and only get better with blink/charge.
I am talking about the sentry as the unit paired with zealot/stalker.
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im surprised no one has mentioned the cost effectiveness of the terran race yet.
bio+tanks is probally the most cost effective army in the entire game aside from broodlord+infestor.
medivacs DOUBLE as both drops ships and a potent healer spellcaster. medivacs give bio units extreme mobility while doubling as healers. to top it off its not that expensive. marines cost like 50 minerals + the cost of the medivac? a medivac filled with marines can cause so much havoc and to top it off its INSANELY EASY to do.
late game u just shift ur medivacs to expansions and drop ur marines and it causes so much disruption that you will need insanely high APM to keep up with something that only costs like 10 apm for the terran player to perform.
not only that but 3-3 marines are such potent units... they only cost 50 minerals and does so much dmg. marines are so good that its getting to a point where you NEED to hard counter them as zerg.
marines will destroy zerglings. marines will destroy roaches even harder. hydras=lol to marines. marines eat mutalisks for breakfast. and ultralisks are derp. so what are the options for zerg to counter marines?
A) you need banelings
B) you need infestors
or C) you need broodlords
thats pretty much our only options to combat tier 1 marines, the most BASIC of terran units. and at the end of the day, marine medivac tank is still more cost effective till you can get broodlords out.
infestors are honestly the zergs only saving grace. i cant imagine any zerg player beating a terran unless there 10x better then the terran player without infestors or if infestors become nerfed. alot of ppl say "lol make banelings" but they dont realize that its not that cost effective when 1 or 2 tank can take out 10 banelings with 1 shot.
all a GOOD terran needs to do is spread his tanks and marines.
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On August 20 2011 01:05 Ballistixz wrote:
im surprised no one has mentioned the cost effectiveness of the terran race yet.
bio+tanks is probally the most cost effective army in the entire game aside from broodlord+infestor.
medivacs DOUBLE as both drops ships and a potent healer spellcaster. medivacs give bio units extreme mobility while doubling as healers. to top it off its not that expensive. marines cost like 50 minerals + the cost of the medivac? a medivac filled with marines can cause so much havoc and to top it off its INSANELY EASY to do.
late game u just shift ur medivacs to expansions and drop ur marines and it causes so much disruption that you will need insanely high APM to keep up with something that only costs like 10 apm for the terran player to perform.
not only that but 3-3 marines are such potent units... they only cost 50 minerals and does so much dmg. marines are so good that its getting to a point where you NEED to hard counter them as zerg.
marines will destroy zerglings. marines will destroy roaches even harder. hydras=lol to marines. marines eat mutalisks for breakfast. and ultralisks are derp. so what are the options for zerg to counter marines?
A) you need banelings
B) you need infestors
or C) you need broodlords
thats pretty much our only options to combat tier 1 marines, the most BASIC of terran units. and at the end of the day, marine medivac tank is still more cost effective till you can get broodlords out.
infestors are honestly the zergs only saving grace. i cant imagine any zerg player beating a terran unless there 10x better then the terran player without infestors or if infestors become nerfed. alot of ppl say "lol make banelings" but they dont realize that its not that cost effective when 1 or 2 tank can take out 10 banelings with 1 shot.
all a GOOD terran needs to do is spread his tanks and marines.
It is at least worthy to note that the Medivac cost as much as a Mutalisk, which I'd say is moderately priced at 100/100/2, but is supply in your army that does not attack. Sure, it doubles as a dropship, but I'd hardly say the race that has 100/0/+8 dropships with a speed upgrade, spellcaster morph, and creep spreader have any room to talk about that.
The Medivac is not really an optional unit if you research Stim. You actually have to have it. And if you're going to use barracks play, you actually have to have Stim. So, you have to factor in the cost of Medivacs into your Marine cost. Plus, the speed nerf was a huge deal. You essentially cannot retreat now without losing all your Medivacs. Sure, it adds mobility from a terrain perspective, but they are god awfully slow now.
It feels like the Terran is derp+clicking dropships all over the map and cleaning up expos in ezsoezmode, with 10 apm, but I can guarantee you that the Terran you face feel the same way when you're mass air is rolling all over the map wreaking havoc, and then during the big engagement you just derp+click your lingbling ball and derp+box your mutas over the whole thing, lawling all the way. Multi-tasking multiple drops while maintaining a steady push and fending off muta harass takes way more then 10 APM, tbh. It's very challenging to do well.
The siege tank can be cost effective, but it can also be a game-ending liability. It is slow, extremely low health, causes friendly fire damage, and god forbid you get caught out of siege mode (insta-gg).
To make the overall argument that Terran is cost effective, and then use medivacs and tank/marine, as the cornerstone of your argument is not very sound. It's an argument to be made, sure, but there are so many counter-arguments with Zergs versatility, and lets face it, mass-muta is one of the most valuable, cost effective plays in the game.
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On August 20 2011 02:15 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 01:05 Ballistixz wrote:
im surprised no one has mentioned the cost effectiveness of the terran race yet.
bio+tanks is probally the most cost effective army in the entire game aside from broodlord+infestor.
medivacs DOUBLE as both drops ships and a potent healer spellcaster. medivacs give bio units extreme mobility while doubling as healers. to top it off its not that expensive. marines cost like 50 minerals + the cost of the medivac? a medivac filled with marines can cause so much havoc and to top it off its INSANELY EASY to do.
late game u just shift ur medivacs to expansions and drop ur marines and it causes so much disruption that you will need insanely high APM to keep up with something that only costs like 10 apm for the terran player to perform.
not only that but 3-3 marines are such potent units... they only cost 50 minerals and does so much dmg. marines are so good that its getting to a point where you NEED to hard counter them as zerg.
marines will destroy zerglings. marines will destroy roaches even harder. hydras=lol to marines. marines eat mutalisks for breakfast. and ultralisks are derp. so what are the options for zerg to counter marines?
A) you need banelings
B) you need infestors
or C) you need broodlords
thats pretty much our only options to combat tier 1 marines, the most BASIC of terran units. and at the end of the day, marine medivac tank is still more cost effective till you can get broodlords out.
infestors are honestly the zergs only saving grace. i cant imagine any zerg player beating a terran unless there 10x better then the terran player without infestors or if infestors become nerfed. alot of ppl say "lol make banelings" but they dont realize that its not that cost effective when 1 or 2 tank can take out 10 banelings with 1 shot.
all a GOOD terran needs to do is spread his tanks and marines. It is at least worthy to note that the Medivac cost as much as a Mutalisk, which I'd say is moderately priced at 100/100/2, but is supply in your army that does not attack. Sure, it doubles as a dropship, but I'd hardly say the race that has 100/0/+8 dropships with a speed upgrade, spellcaster morph, and creep spreader have any room to talk about that. The Medivac is not really an optional unit is you research Stim. You actually have to have it. And if you're going to use barracks play, you actually have to have Stim. So, you have to factor in the cost of Medivacs into your Marine cost. It feels like the Terran is derp+clicking dropships all over the map and cleaning up expos in ezsoezmode, but I can guarantee you that the Terran you face feel the same way when you're mass air is rolling all over the map wreaking havoc, and then during the big engagement you just derp+click your lingbling ball and derp+box your mutas over the whole thing, lawling all the way. The siege tank can be cost effective, but it can also be a game-ending liability. It is slow, extremely low health, causes friendly fire damage, and god forbid you get caught out of siege mode (insta-gg). To make the overall argument that Terran is cost effective, and then use medivacs and tank/marine, as the cornerstone of your argument is not very sound. It's an argument to be made, sure, but there are so many counter-arguments with Zergs versatility, and lets face it, mass-muta is one of the most valuable, cost effective plays in the game.
It's hard to take your post seriously with all the "herp-derp" terminology, but I'll give it a shot.
I agree with a lot of your points. It is extremely difficult (coming from a Random player) to multi-task effectively enough to drop in multiple places while maintaining a map presence and keeping your money low. Probably more difficult than performing a good Mutalisk harass, but the Zerg needs more keystrokes to keep his macro going between spawning larvae, spreading creep, and producing units.
My issue then becomes once you are at the absolute pinnacle of play, which at this point is the upper echelon of Korean Terran players, their multitasking ability unlocks a completely different animal from random Master/Grandmaster Terrans. Once you have the APM of MVP or MMA, you are completely capable of doing all those things I mentioned above, and doing them well. It is in these situations that Zerg players look so completely helpless.
And don't act like having to get Medivacs/Stim is in some way a liability. The combination makes Marines pretty much the most cost-effective thing in the game. That's why Blizzard has to be careful about any balance adjustments they make to the Infestor. Banelings just don't cut it anymore.
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EPT
