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Also, I think there's a clear problem lategame PvT with ghosts. Both snipe and EMP are range 10, while feedback is only range 9. You might say the micro is hard, but with perfect micro from the terran player you end up with this situation where it's literally impossible for the protoss to do anything.
Splitting templar doesn't help when the terran is good enough to double snipe every templar individually (i.e. see SlayerS.taeJa vs ZeNEX.Puzzle game 1 on Katrina AE from the iCCup Nationvoice Korean weekly week 7 semifinals). Since templar feedback range is shorter than the snipe range if the terran micros correctly like we see taeja do, there is literally no way for templar to beat ghosts.
QFT. I mean seriously, EMP out ranges feedback and storm by 3 (!) if used at max range. That's absolutely ridiculous. If the terran plays perfectly, he'll win every mid/late game TvP. That shouldn't have happen.
EMP is difficult to cast at max range and has a very slight cast time, so I think range 8 or even 8.5 would be reasonable, so it still out ranges feedback at maximum range but at perfect skill I think both can go off simultaneously . Snipe might be OK as is because I think feedback/snipe can go off at the same time, otherwise a nerf to 9.5 range would fix it.
Just think about it. Blanket EMPs + no storm will always result in a victory for Terran.
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On August 20 2011 02:23 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 02:15 TimeSpiral wrote:On August 20 2011 01:05 Ballistixz wrote:
im surprised no one has mentioned the cost effectiveness of the terran race yet.
bio+tanks is probally the most cost effective army in the entire game aside from broodlord+infestor.
medivacs DOUBLE as both drops ships and a potent healer spellcaster. medivacs give bio units extreme mobility while doubling as healers. to top it off its not that expensive. marines cost like 50 minerals + the cost of the medivac? a medivac filled with marines can cause so much havoc and to top it off its INSANELY EASY to do.
late game u just shift ur medivacs to expansions and drop ur marines and it causes so much disruption that you will need insanely high APM to keep up with something that only costs like 10 apm for the terran player to perform.
not only that but 3-3 marines are such potent units... they only cost 50 minerals and does so much dmg. marines are so good that its getting to a point where you NEED to hard counter them as zerg.
marines will destroy zerglings. marines will destroy roaches even harder. hydras=lol to marines. marines eat mutalisks for breakfast. and ultralisks are derp. so what are the options for zerg to counter marines?
A) you need banelings
B) you need infestors
or C) you need broodlords
thats pretty much our only options to combat tier 1 marines, the most BASIC of terran units. and at the end of the day, marine medivac tank is still more cost effective till you can get broodlords out.
infestors are honestly the zergs only saving grace. i cant imagine any zerg player beating a terran unless there 10x better then the terran player without infestors or if infestors become nerfed. alot of ppl say "lol make banelings" but they dont realize that its not that cost effective when 1 or 2 tank can take out 10 banelings with 1 shot.
all a GOOD terran needs to do is spread his tanks and marines. It is at least worthy to note that the Medivac cost as much as a Mutalisk, which I'd say is moderately priced at 100/100/2, but is supply in your army that does not attack. Sure, it doubles as a dropship, but I'd hardly say the race that has 100/0/+8 dropships with a speed upgrade, spellcaster morph, and creep spreader have any room to talk about that. The Medivac is not really an optional unit is you research Stim. You actually have to have it. And if you're going to use barracks play, you actually have to have Stim. So, you have to factor in the cost of Medivacs into your Marine cost. It feels like the Terran is derp+clicking dropships all over the map and cleaning up expos in ezsoezmode, but I can guarantee you that the Terran you face feel the same way when you're mass air is rolling all over the map wreaking havoc, and then during the big engagement you just derp+click your lingbling ball and derp+box your mutas over the whole thing, lawling all the way. The siege tank can be cost effective, but it can also be a game-ending liability. It is slow, extremely low health, causes friendly fire damage, and god forbid you get caught out of siege mode (insta-gg). To make the overall argument that Terran is cost effective, and then use medivacs and tank/marine, as the cornerstone of your argument is not very sound. It's an argument to be made, sure, but there are so many counter-arguments with Zergs versatility, and lets face it, mass-muta is one of the most valuable, cost effective plays in the game. It's hard to take your post seriously with all the "herp-derp" terminology, but I'll give it a shot. I agree with a lot of your points. It is extremely difficult (coming from a Random player) to multi-task effectively enough to drop in multiple places while maintaining a map presence and keeping your money low. Probably more difficult than performing a good Mutalisk harass, but the Zerg needs more keystrokes to keep his macro going between spawning larvae, spreading creep, and producing units. My issue then becomes once you are at the absolute pinnacle of play, which at this point is the upper echelon of Korean Terran players, their multitasking ability unlocks a completely different animal from random Master/Grandmaster Terrans. Once you have the APM of MVP or MMA, you are completely capable of doing all those things I mentioned above, and doing them well. It is in these situations that Zerg players look so completely helpless. And don't act like having to get Medivacs/Stim is in some way a liability. The combination makes Marines pretty much the most cost-effective thing in the game. That's why Blizzard has to be careful about any balance adjustments they make to the Infestor. Banelings just don't cut it anymore.
Fair points. And just a nod to your comment about derpmode, I just assumed every single post here is at least 50% trolling anyway, so why not insert a little humor into it 
This notion that Zerg macro is somehow harder, or requires more keystrokes just seems like a self-stroking myth. And if you bring it up to the top levels, like you're saying, spawning larva is a tremendous advantage, not an impediment. Zerg's production capability is gassless, and focused around interval-spellcasting. The production is automatically scaled with the natural process of expanding.
No one is contesting that Infestors fungal growth in regards to marines should be changed. I'm contending that it should not hit air units, or that the mechanic for affecting air units should be significantly altered.
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On August 20 2011 03:00 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 02:23 ZasZ. wrote:On August 20 2011 02:15 TimeSpiral wrote:On August 20 2011 01:05 Ballistixz wrote:
im surprised no one has mentioned the cost effectiveness of the terran race yet.
bio+tanks is probally the most cost effective army in the entire game aside from broodlord+infestor.
medivacs DOUBLE as both drops ships and a potent healer spellcaster. medivacs give bio units extreme mobility while doubling as healers. to top it off its not that expensive. marines cost like 50 minerals + the cost of the medivac? a medivac filled with marines can cause so much havoc and to top it off its INSANELY EASY to do.
late game u just shift ur medivacs to expansions and drop ur marines and it causes so much disruption that you will need insanely high APM to keep up with something that only costs like 10 apm for the terran player to perform.
not only that but 3-3 marines are such potent units... they only cost 50 minerals and does so much dmg. marines are so good that its getting to a point where you NEED to hard counter them as zerg.
marines will destroy zerglings. marines will destroy roaches even harder. hydras=lol to marines. marines eat mutalisks for breakfast. and ultralisks are derp. so what are the options for zerg to counter marines?
A) you need banelings
B) you need infestors
or C) you need broodlords
thats pretty much our only options to combat tier 1 marines, the most BASIC of terran units. and at the end of the day, marine medivac tank is still more cost effective till you can get broodlords out.
infestors are honestly the zergs only saving grace. i cant imagine any zerg player beating a terran unless there 10x better then the terran player without infestors or if infestors become nerfed. alot of ppl say "lol make banelings" but they dont realize that its not that cost effective when 1 or 2 tank can take out 10 banelings with 1 shot.
all a GOOD terran needs to do is spread his tanks and marines. It is at least worthy to note that the Medivac cost as much as a Mutalisk, which I'd say is moderately priced at 100/100/2, but is supply in your army that does not attack. Sure, it doubles as a dropship, but I'd hardly say the race that has 100/0/+8 dropships with a speed upgrade, spellcaster morph, and creep spreader have any room to talk about that. The Medivac is not really an optional unit is you research Stim. You actually have to have it. And if you're going to use barracks play, you actually have to have Stim. So, you have to factor in the cost of Medivacs into your Marine cost. It feels like the Terran is derp+clicking dropships all over the map and cleaning up expos in ezsoezmode, but I can guarantee you that the Terran you face feel the same way when you're mass air is rolling all over the map wreaking havoc, and then during the big engagement you just derp+click your lingbling ball and derp+box your mutas over the whole thing, lawling all the way. The siege tank can be cost effective, but it can also be a game-ending liability. It is slow, extremely low health, causes friendly fire damage, and god forbid you get caught out of siege mode (insta-gg). To make the overall argument that Terran is cost effective, and then use medivacs and tank/marine, as the cornerstone of your argument is not very sound. It's an argument to be made, sure, but there are so many counter-arguments with Zergs versatility, and lets face it, mass-muta is one of the most valuable, cost effective plays in the game. It's hard to take your post seriously with all the "herp-derp" terminology, but I'll give it a shot. I agree with a lot of your points. It is extremely difficult (coming from a Random player) to multi-task effectively enough to drop in multiple places while maintaining a map presence and keeping your money low. Probably more difficult than performing a good Mutalisk harass, but the Zerg needs more keystrokes to keep his macro going between spawning larvae, spreading creep, and producing units. My issue then becomes once you are at the absolute pinnacle of play, which at this point is the upper echelon of Korean Terran players, their multitasking ability unlocks a completely different animal from random Master/Grandmaster Terrans. Once you have the APM of MVP or MMA, you are completely capable of doing all those things I mentioned above, and doing them well. It is in these situations that Zerg players look so completely helpless. And don't act like having to get Medivacs/Stim is in some way a liability. The combination makes Marines pretty much the most cost-effective thing in the game. That's why Blizzard has to be careful about any balance adjustments they make to the Infestor. Banelings just don't cut it anymore. Fair points. And just a nod to your comment about derpmode, I just assumed every single post here is at least 50% trolling anyway, so why not insert a little humor into it This notion that Zerg macro is somehow harder, or requires more keystrokes just seems like a self-stroking myth. And if you bring it up to the top levels, like you're saying, spawning larva is a tremendous advantage, not an impediment. Zerg's production capability is gassless, and focused around interval-spellcasting. The production is automatically scaled with the natural process of expanding. No one is contesting that Infestors fungal growth in regards to marines should be changed. I'm contending that it should not hit air units, or that the mechanic for affecting air units should be significantly altered.
I didn't say it was harder. I do however think it requires more keystrokes, although most of it is mindless repitition (injects, creep spread). Terran macro has always been harder for me, probably because it is my worst race, but also because without the inherent game knowledge it is hard to judge what you can support off of the bases you have, especially with the income spikes that are MULEs.
Spawn larvae is definitely a tremendous advantage, but one that requires a significant portion of a players attention in the late-game in order to utilize it. I guess you could say the tip-top zergs (NesTea, LosirA) are the ones whose Queens still have less than 25 energy 30 minutes into a macro game. But that becomes difficult (imposssible?) to do when you're being dropped in multiple places, have to replenish lost Drones, and have to be aware of his main force in case he decides to perform a death push.
I think that Broodlord/Infestor is possibly too hard to stop in the Diamond/Master level, but once you get to players like MMA/MVP with sick Ghost Mech you reach a break point where there is little a Zerg can do in the late-game. I don't think it's good game balance for it to flip like that from Zerg-favored to Terran-favored.
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On August 20 2011 03:09 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 03:00 TimeSpiral wrote:On August 20 2011 02:23 ZasZ. wrote:On August 20 2011 02:15 TimeSpiral wrote:On August 20 2011 01:05 Ballistixz wrote:
im surprised no one has mentioned the cost effectiveness of the terran race yet.
bio+tanks is probally the most cost effective army in the entire game aside from broodlord+infestor.
medivacs DOUBLE as both drops ships and a potent healer spellcaster. medivacs give bio units extreme mobility while doubling as healers. to top it off its not that expensive. marines cost like 50 minerals + the cost of the medivac? a medivac filled with marines can cause so much havoc and to top it off its INSANELY EASY to do.
late game u just shift ur medivacs to expansions and drop ur marines and it causes so much disruption that you will need insanely high APM to keep up with something that only costs like 10 apm for the terran player to perform.
not only that but 3-3 marines are such potent units... they only cost 50 minerals and does so much dmg. marines are so good that its getting to a point where you NEED to hard counter them as zerg.
marines will destroy zerglings. marines will destroy roaches even harder. hydras=lol to marines. marines eat mutalisks for breakfast. and ultralisks are derp. so what are the options for zerg to counter marines?
A) you need banelings
B) you need infestors
or C) you need broodlords
thats pretty much our only options to combat tier 1 marines, the most BASIC of terran units. and at the end of the day, marine medivac tank is still more cost effective till you can get broodlords out.
infestors are honestly the zergs only saving grace. i cant imagine any zerg player beating a terran unless there 10x better then the terran player without infestors or if infestors become nerfed. alot of ppl say "lol make banelings" but they dont realize that its not that cost effective when 1 or 2 tank can take out 10 banelings with 1 shot.
all a GOOD terran needs to do is spread his tanks and marines. It is at least worthy to note that the Medivac cost as much as a Mutalisk, which I'd say is moderately priced at 100/100/2, but is supply in your army that does not attack. Sure, it doubles as a dropship, but I'd hardly say the race that has 100/0/+8 dropships with a speed upgrade, spellcaster morph, and creep spreader have any room to talk about that. The Medivac is not really an optional unit is you research Stim. You actually have to have it. And if you're going to use barracks play, you actually have to have Stim. So, you have to factor in the cost of Medivacs into your Marine cost. It feels like the Terran is derp+clicking dropships all over the map and cleaning up expos in ezsoezmode, but I can guarantee you that the Terran you face feel the same way when you're mass air is rolling all over the map wreaking havoc, and then during the big engagement you just derp+click your lingbling ball and derp+box your mutas over the whole thing, lawling all the way. The siege tank can be cost effective, but it can also be a game-ending liability. It is slow, extremely low health, causes friendly fire damage, and god forbid you get caught out of siege mode (insta-gg). To make the overall argument that Terran is cost effective, and then use medivacs and tank/marine, as the cornerstone of your argument is not very sound. It's an argument to be made, sure, but there are so many counter-arguments with Zergs versatility, and lets face it, mass-muta is one of the most valuable, cost effective plays in the game. It's hard to take your post seriously with all the "herp-derp" terminology, but I'll give it a shot. I agree with a lot of your points. It is extremely difficult (coming from a Random player) to multi-task effectively enough to drop in multiple places while maintaining a map presence and keeping your money low. Probably more difficult than performing a good Mutalisk harass, but the Zerg needs more keystrokes to keep his macro going between spawning larvae, spreading creep, and producing units. My issue then becomes once you are at the absolute pinnacle of play, which at this point is the upper echelon of Korean Terran players, their multitasking ability unlocks a completely different animal from random Master/Grandmaster Terrans. Once you have the APM of MVP or MMA, you are completely capable of doing all those things I mentioned above, and doing them well. It is in these situations that Zerg players look so completely helpless. And don't act like having to get Medivacs/Stim is in some way a liability. The combination makes Marines pretty much the most cost-effective thing in the game. That's why Blizzard has to be careful about any balance adjustments they make to the Infestor. Banelings just don't cut it anymore. Fair points. And just a nod to your comment about derpmode, I just assumed every single post here is at least 50% trolling anyway, so why not insert a little humor into it This notion that Zerg macro is somehow harder, or requires more keystrokes just seems like a self-stroking myth. And if you bring it up to the top levels, like you're saying, spawning larva is a tremendous advantage, not an impediment. Zerg's production capability is gassless, and focused around interval-spellcasting. The production is automatically scaled with the natural process of expanding. No one is contesting that Infestors fungal growth in regards to marines should be changed. I'm contending that it should not hit air units, or that the mechanic for affecting air units should be significantly altered. I didn't say it was harder. I do however think it requires more keystrokes, although most of it is mindless repitition (injects, creep spread). Terran macro has always been harder for me, probably because it is my worst race, but also because without the inherent game knowledge it is hard to judge what you can support off of the bases you have, especially with the income spikes that are MULEs. Spawn larvae is definitely a tremendous advantage, but one that requires a significant portion of a players attention in the late-game in order to utilize it. I guess you could say the tip-top zergs (NesTea, LosirA) are the ones whose Queens still have less than 25 energy 30 minutes into a macro game. But that becomes difficult (imposssible?) to do when you're being dropped in multiple places, have to replenish lost Drones, and have to be aware of his main force in case he decides to perform a death push. I think that Broodlord/Infestor is possibly too hard to stop in the Diamond/Master level, but once you get to players like MMA/MVP with sick Ghost Mech you reach a break point where there is little a Zerg can do in the late-game. I don't think it's good game balance for it to flip like that from Zerg-favored to Terran-favored.
What happens below pro level should be a distant second place on the list of balance priorities. If people can't handle certain strats because they're bad it doesn't mean there is a problem with the game.
Case in point: Brood War Zerg. To play Zerg properly you had to micro massive amounts of units that happened to include lurkers and defilers which were two of the most challenging and micro intensive units in the game. Zergs who couldn't properly use these units got terrible results which made the race hell to play for bad players but that doesn't mean that the game wasn't balanced exactly the way it should have been in that respect.
The only concerns that should be addressed are ones that create obvious problems in professional level play.
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On August 20 2011 02:46 Huntz wrote:Show nested quote +Also, I think there's a clear problem lategame PvT with ghosts. Both snipe and EMP are range 10, while feedback is only range 9. You might say the micro is hard, but with perfect micro from the terran player you end up with this situation where it's literally impossible for the protoss to do anything.
Splitting templar doesn't help when the terran is good enough to double snipe every templar individually (i.e. see SlayerS.taeJa vs ZeNEX.Puzzle game 1 on Katrina AE from the iCCup Nationvoice Korean weekly week 7 semifinals). Since templar feedback range is shorter than the snipe range if the terran micros correctly like we see taeja do, there is literally no way for templar to beat ghosts. QFT. I mean seriously, EMP out ranges feedback and storm by 3 (!) if used at max range. That's absolutely ridiculous. If the terran plays perfectly, he'll win every mid/late game TvP. That shouldn't have happen. EMP is difficult to cast at max range and has a very slight cast time, so I think range 8 or even 8.5 would be reasonable, so it still out ranges feedback at maximum range but at perfect skill I think both can go off simultaneously . Snipe might be OK as is because I think feedback/snipe can go off at the same time, otherwise a nerf to 9.5 range would fix it. Just think about it. Blanket EMPs + no storm will always result in a victory for Terran.
In theory emp outranges feedback and so emp always wins. But it will never be the case that pro-gameplay reaches that level because it is impossible. You can't have 100% focus on every ghost of yours 100% of the time. So exactly at the moment you are focused on other stuff protoss player can feedback you. Also army positioning and moving (which is almost non existent even in pro play) can greatly decrease the effectiveness of the emp. 14 emps on 7 high templar doesn't sound that good, right?
Another reason is that feedback can be spammed while emp can't. Ever wondered how MC does so many feedbacks in such a short time, exactly clicking on every ghost in the enemys army? Well you can spam-cast Feeback on the Minimap and it will automatically hit the nearest target. This way you also hit a lot of Medivacs but thats not too bad either, right?
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On August 20 2011 03:09 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 03:00 TimeSpiral wrote:On August 20 2011 02:23 ZasZ. wrote:On August 20 2011 02:15 TimeSpiral wrote:On August 20 2011 01:05 Ballistixz wrote:
im surprised no one has mentioned the cost effectiveness of the terran race yet.
bio+tanks is probally the most cost effective army in the entire game aside from broodlord+infestor.
medivacs DOUBLE as both drops ships and a potent healer spellcaster. medivacs give bio units extreme mobility while doubling as healers. to top it off its not that expensive. marines cost like 50 minerals + the cost of the medivac? a medivac filled with marines can cause so much havoc and to top it off its INSANELY EASY to do.
late game u just shift ur medivacs to expansions and drop ur marines and it causes so much disruption that you will need insanely high APM to keep up with something that only costs like 10 apm for the terran player to perform.
not only that but 3-3 marines are such potent units... they only cost 50 minerals and does so much dmg. marines are so good that its getting to a point where you NEED to hard counter them as zerg.
marines will destroy zerglings. marines will destroy roaches even harder. hydras=lol to marines. marines eat mutalisks for breakfast. and ultralisks are derp. so what are the options for zerg to counter marines?
A) you need banelings
B) you need infestors
or C) you need broodlords
thats pretty much our only options to combat tier 1 marines, the most BASIC of terran units. and at the end of the day, marine medivac tank is still more cost effective till you can get broodlords out.
infestors are honestly the zergs only saving grace. i cant imagine any zerg player beating a terran unless there 10x better then the terran player without infestors or if infestors become nerfed. alot of ppl say "lol make banelings" but they dont realize that its not that cost effective when 1 or 2 tank can take out 10 banelings with 1 shot.
all a GOOD terran needs to do is spread his tanks and marines. It is at least worthy to note that the Medivac cost as much as a Mutalisk, which I'd say is moderately priced at 100/100/2, but is supply in your army that does not attack. Sure, it doubles as a dropship, but I'd hardly say the race that has 100/0/+8 dropships with a speed upgrade, spellcaster morph, and creep spreader have any room to talk about that. The Medivac is not really an optional unit is you research Stim. You actually have to have it. And if you're going to use barracks play, you actually have to have Stim. So, you have to factor in the cost of Medivacs into your Marine cost. It feels like the Terran is derp+clicking dropships all over the map and cleaning up expos in ezsoezmode, but I can guarantee you that the Terran you face feel the same way when you're mass air is rolling all over the map wreaking havoc, and then during the big engagement you just derp+click your lingbling ball and derp+box your mutas over the whole thing, lawling all the way. The siege tank can be cost effective, but it can also be a game-ending liability. It is slow, extremely low health, causes friendly fire damage, and god forbid you get caught out of siege mode (insta-gg). To make the overall argument that Terran is cost effective, and then use medivacs and tank/marine, as the cornerstone of your argument is not very sound. It's an argument to be made, sure, but there are so many counter-arguments with Zergs versatility, and lets face it, mass-muta is one of the most valuable, cost effective plays in the game. It's hard to take your post seriously with all the "herp-derp" terminology, but I'll give it a shot. I agree with a lot of your points. It is extremely difficult (coming from a Random player) to multi-task effectively enough to drop in multiple places while maintaining a map presence and keeping your money low. Probably more difficult than performing a good Mutalisk harass, but the Zerg needs more keystrokes to keep his macro going between spawning larvae, spreading creep, and producing units. My issue then becomes once you are at the absolute pinnacle of play, which at this point is the upper echelon of Korean Terran players, their multitasking ability unlocks a completely different animal from random Master/Grandmaster Terrans. Once you have the APM of MVP or MMA, you are completely capable of doing all those things I mentioned above, and doing them well. It is in these situations that Zerg players look so completely helpless. And don't act like having to get Medivacs/Stim is in some way a liability. The combination makes Marines pretty much the most cost-effective thing in the game. That's why Blizzard has to be careful about any balance adjustments they make to the Infestor. Banelings just don't cut it anymore. Fair points. And just a nod to your comment about derpmode, I just assumed every single post here is at least 50% trolling anyway, so why not insert a little humor into it This notion that Zerg macro is somehow harder, or requires more keystrokes just seems like a self-stroking myth. And if you bring it up to the top levels, like you're saying, spawning larva is a tremendous advantage, not an impediment. Zerg's production capability is gassless, and focused around interval-spellcasting. The production is automatically scaled with the natural process of expanding. No one is contesting that Infestors fungal growth in regards to marines should be changed. I'm contending that it should not hit air units, or that the mechanic for affecting air units should be significantly altered. I didn't say it was harder. I do however think it requires more keystrokes, although most of it is mindless repitition (injects, creep spread). Terran macro has always been harder for me, probably because it is my worst race, but also because without the inherent game knowledge it is hard to judge what you can support off of the bases you have, especially with the income spikes that are MULEs. Spawn larvae is definitely a tremendous advantage, but one that requires a significant portion of a players attention in the late-game in order to utilize it. I guess you could say the tip-top zergs (NesTea, LosirA) are the ones whose Queens still have less than 25 energy 30 minutes into a macro game. But that becomes difficult (imposssible?) to do when you're being dropped in multiple places, have to replenish lost Drones, and have to be aware of his main force in case he decides to perform a death push. I think that Broodlord/Infestor is possibly too hard to stop in the Diamond/Master level, but once you get to players like MMA/MVP with sick Ghost Mech you reach a break point where there is little a Zerg can do in the late-game. I don't think it's good game balance for it to flip like that from Zerg-favored to Terran-favored.
Yes dropping at multiple places in the late game is hard to do and it is even harder to defend. But this is just stuff you have to include into your gameplay. At the moment far too many zergs die to good drop plays because almost no zerg is defending their bases. Of course 1-2 spine crawlers will not defend a base. Just like many protoss players have to leave some stalkers/zealots behind zerg players have to start doing the same thing (e.g. 2-3 banes + spines)
Spawn larvae ist not an advantage and not a disadvantage it is just another mechanic. Is has many pros but also many cons.
Ghost-Mech in ZvP is far too less explored to call it imbalanced. We'll have to see in the future how the dynamics of this composition in the late game of tvz works out.
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On August 19 2011 22:48 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2011 13:54 Supamang wrote:On August 19 2011 12:39 TimeSpiral wrote:On August 19 2011 12:35 Belisarius wrote:On August 19 2011 11:43 MilesTeg wrote:
I wonder what people have seen that make them think fungal is OP. I guess it's natural that a unit that was buffed and got from being almost never used to very common is perceived as overpowered.But I don't remember ever seeing engagements that made me think "this is bullshit the zerg should've never won!". It's not fungal so much as the infestor's utiity in general, and it's not because it creates situations where Z wins retardedly when they shouldn't. It's just that it's viable, even needed, against just about every composition. Fungal rapes large numbers of small units, while NP counters small numbers of heavy units. Fungal denies harass, decloaks, denies positioning, denies retreat. IT + burrow or fungal + burrow, has tremendous harass potential as well as the speed and mobility to do that unsupported, and IT spam in any situation is surprisingly powerful. The infestor just does everything. Obviously a straight-up nerf is crazy, though. The unit is so strong because it has to be so strong for Z to compete in a ton of different situations. But perhaps the unit - the unit, not the race - is a little broken. It's not that it can't be countered, it's just that I struggle to think of a situation in which I wouldn't want infestors as Z. I would certainly agree that the infestor is broken. Infested Terran and NP can attack air. They should have stuck to their guns and nerfed FG being able to attack air. It was ridiculous that they back-peddled on that just because of Zerg tears. They were actually trying to nerf the infestor for several months, then decided a buff was probably better ... lol. Infestors are the only good anti air that Zerg really have. Terrans have cost efficient and powerful AA with marines and vikings. Protoss have very mobile AA with high utility with their blink stalks and phoenix. What do zerg have? Corruptors, whos corruption ability is hardly comparable to graviton beam and being able to land. They have hydras, who are expensive and un-stimmable versions of marines AND cant get medivac support. Queens too, but they are even more immobile than the hydras. Infested Terrans are only good AA in conjuction with Fungal. Any opponent will see the eggs and be lightyears away by the time they hatch. While making them run has its merits, its nothing compared to killing ability. Fix Zerg AA and I would be completely fine with FG not being able to hit air Concerning Zerg's AA. In your analysis, did you forget the Mutalisk? The Mutalisk is far and away the best all-purpose flyer: It's super fast, moderately priced, mass-produceable from a gassless production structure, attacks multiple units with each attack, attack upgrades are 3 times as effective, and Zerg is the only race where mass air is considered standard play. I'd hardly say claiming Zerg has weak AA in defense of Fungal hitting air units is a viable argument. And not that it is a big deal, really, but the hydra already does more DPS than a stimmed marine. It's just a different unit altogether. It's a little bigger, gets a better range, can burrow, has more health, buts its a little slower than usual off creep and is obviously more expensive than a Marine. Even if you want to make that whacky comparison, you have to factor in the costs of Medivacs with a Barracks army that is going to use Stim (the only ability in the game that costs health to use). I do not think you can defend Fungal Growth's anti-air ability with a "Zerg has weak AA in general" argument without including the Muta, which essentially beats every air unit in the game cost for cost besides the Phoenix (maybe not BCs or Carriers, but, rofl, come on now ...). Am I wrong in requiring the inclusion of the Muta in this argument?
Just as a smaller point, the DPS of a single Hydralisk is less than that of two stimmed marines, but the mineral cost and supply cost are equal. You pay more as a Zerg for less effective AA DPS, just thought I'd throw that out there.
In addition, I'm reading a lot of crying about Infestors being OP, but they aren't really. They provide benefits and capabilities to a Zerg player that the other two races (more or less) already have. Infested Terrans sniping buildings shouldn't be a problem - get some detection. Really. If Zergs need detection in case of Cloaked Banshee, Nukes and Dark Templars, I THINK the other two races can afford to invest some into detection of their own.
So, then people look to the DPS of the infested terran and say it's too much: But stimmed marines do as much and are equally spammable AND dropable. They harass just as easily. And Dark Templars do some massive DPS too, four can snipe a hatchery in a short, short time. Equal harass capacity for different races.
So now we have to look at Fungal, which people also say is OP, as holding units in place is bad. By that metric, Forcefield is gone and needs to go. You can trap units in a bubble of forcefields, and AoE down the bubble (Or better yet, anyone remember Minigun vs Idra? Forcefields = goodbye ling/bling army). Terran has no such ability, but this is mitigated by their ability to control space using Siege Tanks. Siege tanks prevent you from moving in, preventing micro, etc. It's silly, every race needs these units to turn the tide of a fight in their favor.
So what's left, Neural Parasite? Controlling enemy units keeps the game interesting, in my opinion. But top Zergs have already made known that the real use of this ability is to prevent the OPPONENT from using them, not so much to use them yourself (Thanks Destiny for that argument). Similar skills exist elsewhere - Point Defense Drone prevents Stalkers from being used, forcefield prevents lings and banelings from being used, what have you. Enemy unit control/Management is available to all three races, some just use them more than others.
The last argument I've seen is that infestor's spells are fine, but it's too much for just one unit, it should be split up. Personally, I'd be fine with this if it weren't for the massive gas cost of infestors, and the supply cap. Splitting it into two casters requires more gas and more supply for a unit that's (in my opinion) already fine where it is. It isn't blatantly breaking any matchups (July TLPD stats say Zerg is just under 50% overall), so leave it be. The infestor is a unit Zerg needs in order to mitigate and solve other problems prevalent within the race.
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On August 19 2011 15:53 Kingqway wrote:
What I believe is fucking up the match-up is the infested terran from the infestor, not the fungal growth. I believe fungal growth is an immensely powerful, but immensely needed tool for zerg. However, the infested terrans damage output for a 25 energy unit, is absolutely insane. I mean, it does slightly less than the marine unstimmed, but the fact that it has higher direct damage, makes it a much more viable unit for sniping structures. When you're going for ranged upgrades, this makes the ranged attack even stronger, making it snipe bases at a really fast rate. I don't believe casters should have the ability to destroy buildings the way infestors with infested terrans do. For comparison's sake, the raven's auto turret costs 50 energy, takes 4 blocks (so it needs open space to be casted), for the same damage. Of course, I'm not comparing the auto turret to try and say the auto turret should do more, but I'm trying to say the infested terran should do similar damage. Unlike the auto turret, the infested terran is an infantry/bio unit so it can deal way more damage in groups, since you can have much more firing at the same targets. Their slow-move ability also allows them to spread their damage once their target is destroyed. While you won't generally see this at the top level of plays, a few infestors dropped in the back of a base can do a serious amount of damage with the proper amount of energy. Not with fungal growth, but with shift-casting infested terrans so that you can have each infestor throw down all their energy's worth of infested terrans instantly, destroying structures before reinforcements can arrive. Unlike drop-based attacks from other races, infestors take only 6 supply, so the zerg army can be positioned elsewhere, while a main-army level threat is being posed in wherever the infestors were dropped. Protoss currently has a counter to this with Psionic storms, but terrans do not, other than "dont let them in, in the first place". Of course I guess a proper counter to that would be to seriously "not let them in" since a current problem may be that terrans need to improve upon proper detection mechanics, but I seriously think the infested terran does too much damage.
You say the infested terran does too much damage for just 25 energy? I think some theorycraft math would suggest otherwise.
Both the infestor and the orbital regain energy at 0.5625 energy/second. This means an infestor can spawn a "free" IT every 44 seconds. An orbital can call down a mule every 89 seconds, which yields ~275 minerals, or 5 and 1/2 marines. This means an orbital can spawn a "free" marine every 17 seconds. So one orbital can make marines about 2 and 1/2 times faster. While an orbital costs 450 minerals and an infestor is only 100/150, I feel like that's a fair price comparison for the rate at which they can make marines. While 8 infestors dropping ITs in your base is frustrating, nothing stops you from investing in extra orbitals to have the same midgame capability.
You do have to make an investment in medivacs to base snipe, but the big gas cost of infestors kind of balances that out. You get to keep your "free" marines if they survive. We don't. You can stim yours for better cost efficiency. Our marines can barely move. The only advantage I can concede for the IT is that it doesn't cost supply, giving Zerg the possibility of making an army past the 200/200 cap. But I think the problem is base sniping, not 250 supply IT deathballs. You may argue that the infestor allows you to make free marines even after resources have been exhausted (obviously not the case for orbitals), but again I don't think late game no-money IT base sniping is the predominant issue.
I think overall the IT ability is fair, but the timing attack zergs have discovered brings up the issue of whether infestors should have the energy upgrade. As a Zerg player myself, I feel energy upgraded infestors can be a bit too convenient at times in defending, but then again I don't think they have the same potency as insta-storms. If anything should be nerfed, I think the first thing should be the energy upgrade, which would stop the timing attack.
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I think it's invalid to try to compare Fungal Growth with Forcefields. Rather it should be looked at as both a Forcefield/Storm in one convenient package.
Forcefields hinder movement and can split armies. But the units are still very much alive.
Siege Tanks do not Stop movement in either sense.
Fungals on the other hand do not hinder movement, they outright stop it. They also have the added benefit of doing damage.
For those that say Ghosts have great DPS. ..Really? They do 10/20 to light at 1.5 Attack Rate for a unit that costs 200/100. I can't think of any other unit in the game that does that little DPS of Non-AOE damage for that amount of cost.
In a real situation engagement, if you're chain-sniping, you're not kiting/splitting your Marines as efficiently. Tanks aren't target firing as well as they could be.
Many of you just say that EMP them = Win. The same counter that every other race has been saying to each other applies here. Micro and split your Units. It's silly to think that people can deathball units.
Not to mention the fact that EMP does not kill. These units are not dead, they can run away and regenerate.
As I have posted above, the Infestors has been a catch-all unit to address some of Zerg's inadequacies. Zerg's tech tree needs to be looked at in-conjunction with the Infestors role.
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On August 20 2011 04:40 TheDraken wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2011 15:53 Kingqway wrote:
What I believe is fucking up the match-up is the infested terran from the infestor, not the fungal growth. I believe fungal growth is an immensely powerful, but immensely needed tool for zerg. However, the infested terrans damage output for a 25 energy unit, is absolutely insane. I mean, it does slightly less than the marine unstimmed, but the fact that it has higher direct damage, makes it a much more viable unit for sniping structures. When you're going for ranged upgrades, this makes the ranged attack even stronger, making it snipe bases at a really fast rate. I don't believe casters should have the ability to destroy buildings the way infestors with infested terrans do. For comparison's sake, the raven's auto turret costs 50 energy, takes 4 blocks (so it needs open space to be casted), for the same damage. Of course, I'm not comparing the auto turret to try and say the auto turret should do more, but I'm trying to say the infested terran should do similar damage. Unlike the auto turret, the infested terran is an infantry/bio unit so it can deal way more damage in groups, since you can have much more firing at the same targets. Their slow-move ability also allows them to spread their damage once their target is destroyed. While you won't generally see this at the top level of plays, a few infestors dropped in the back of a base can do a serious amount of damage with the proper amount of energy. Not with fungal growth, but with shift-casting infested terrans so that you can have each infestor throw down all their energy's worth of infested terrans instantly, destroying structures before reinforcements can arrive. Unlike drop-based attacks from other races, infestors take only 6 supply, so the zerg army can be positioned elsewhere, while a main-army level threat is being posed in wherever the infestors were dropped. Protoss currently has a counter to this with Psionic storms, but terrans do not, other than "dont let them in, in the first place". Of course I guess a proper counter to that would be to seriously "not let them in" since a current problem may be that terrans need to improve upon proper detection mechanics, but I seriously think the infested terran does too much damage.
You say the infested terran does too much damage for just 25 energy? I think some theorycraft math would suggest otherwise. Both the infestor and the orbital regain energy at 0.5625 energy/second. This means an infestor can spawn a "free" IT every 44 seconds. An orbital can call down a mule every 89 seconds, which yields ~275 minerals, or 5 and 1/2 marines. This means an orbital can spawn a "free" marine every 17 seconds. So one orbital can make marines about 2 and 1/2 times faster. While an orbital costs 450 minerals and an infestor is only 100/150, I feel like that's a fair price comparison for the rate at which they can make marines. While 8 infestors dropping ITs in your base is frustrating, nothing stops you from investing in extra orbitals to have the same midgame capability. You do have to make an investment in medivacs to base snipe, but the big gas cost of infestors kind of balances that out. You get to keep your "free" marines if they survive. We don't. You can stim yours for better cost efficiency. Our marines can barely move. The only advantage I can concede for the IT is that it doesn't cost supply, giving Zerg the possibility of making an army past the 200/200 cap. But I think the problem is base sniping, not 250 supply IT deathballs. You may argue that the infestor allows you to make free marines even after resources have been exhausted (obviously not the case for orbitals), but again I don't think late game no-money IT base sniping is the predominant issue. I think overall the IT ability is fair, but the timing attack zergs have discovered brings up the issue of whether infestors should have the energy upgrade. As a Zerg player myself, I feel energy upgraded infestors can be a bit too convenient at times in defending, but then again I don't think they have the same potency as insta-storms. If anything should be nerfed, I think the first thing should be the energy upgrade, which would stop the timing attack.
Leave it to a Zerg to try and bash the MULE at any chance they can possibly get, lawl (s+ddddddddddddddddddd). Your theorycrafting about the IT versus the Calldown MULE is ultra-fail, sorry.
Being able to Summon +2 Attack Marines while invisible is pretty nice, but I don't think it's a huge problem. It gets exponentially worse with mass-infestor play, where the potential for like an additional 50-75+ (+2) marines can hit the field out of nowhere. But, I think this is somewhat leveled out by the fact that the mass-infestor takes up supply and does not have a non-energy attack. So, an infestor with Max Energy (happens all the time) can spawn 8 supply, while consuming 2 itself, but that 8 supply is temporary (30 seconds). IT seems pretty okay to me.
I'm not familiar with the IT timing attack. Maybe ITs are a problem and I just don't know it yet.
Fungal Growth attacking air is overkill. Remove that and that will go a long way.
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On August 20 2011 04:46 Eps wrote:
I think it's invalid to try to compare Fungal Growth with Forcefields. Rather it should be looked at as both a Forcefield/Storm in one convenient package.
Forcefields hinder movement and can split armies. But the units are still very much alive.
Siege Tanks do not Stop movement in either sense.
Fungals on the other hand do not hinder movement, they outright stop it. They also have the added benefit of doing damage.
For those that say Ghosts have great DPS. ..Really? They do 10/20 to light at 1.5 Attack Rate for a unit that costs 200/100. I can't think of any other unit in the game that does that little DPS of Non-AOE damage for that amount of cost.
In a real situation engagement, if you're chain-sniping, you're not kiting/splitting your Marines as efficiently. Tanks aren't target firing as well as they could be.
Many of you just say that EMP them = Win. The same counter that every other race has been saying to each other applies here. Micro and split your Units. It's silly to think that people can deathball units.
Not to mention the fact that EMP does not kill. These units are not dead, they can run away and regenerate.
As I have posted above, the Infestors has been a catch-all unit to address some of Zerg's inadequacies. Zerg's tech tree needs to be looked at in-conjunction with the Infestors role.
Well regarding the ghost dps, it beats out stalkers by a bit lol. I know they're cheaper, but they're not spellcasters, I'm just pointing it out because the lower dps units of other races are usually higher than the core unit for Protoss.
Regarding the EMP thing, the radius and range is so ridiculous that if I split, I die to 3 EMPs instead of 1. People most likely aren't saying it because they suck, they just feel helpless against it because they're trying what you're saying and still losing.
And EMP does pretty much kill, you cannot run away without losing all your hts and most likely many zealots and sentries, but you can't win the engagement (at least not close to cost effieciently).
I agree with everything you said about fungals though, well put.
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On August 20 2011 05:01 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 04:40 TheDraken wrote:On August 19 2011 15:53 Kingqway wrote:
What I believe is fucking up the match-up is the infested terran from the infestor, not the fungal growth. I believe fungal growth is an immensely powerful, but immensely needed tool for zerg. However, the infested terrans damage output for a 25 energy unit, is absolutely insane. I mean, it does slightly less than the marine unstimmed, but the fact that it has higher direct damage, makes it a much more viable unit for sniping structures. When you're going for ranged upgrades, this makes the ranged attack even stronger, making it snipe bases at a really fast rate. I don't believe casters should have the ability to destroy buildings the way infestors with infested terrans do. For comparison's sake, the raven's auto turret costs 50 energy, takes 4 blocks (so it needs open space to be casted), for the same damage. Of course, I'm not comparing the auto turret to try and say the auto turret should do more, but I'm trying to say the infested terran should do similar damage. Unlike the auto turret, the infested terran is an infantry/bio unit so it can deal way more damage in groups, since you can have much more firing at the same targets. Their slow-move ability also allows them to spread their damage once their target is destroyed. While you won't generally see this at the top level of plays, a few infestors dropped in the back of a base can do a serious amount of damage with the proper amount of energy. Not with fungal growth, but with shift-casting infested terrans so that you can have each infestor throw down all their energy's worth of infested terrans instantly, destroying structures before reinforcements can arrive. Unlike drop-based attacks from other races, infestors take only 6 supply, so the zerg army can be positioned elsewhere, while a main-army level threat is being posed in wherever the infestors were dropped. Protoss currently has a counter to this with Psionic storms, but terrans do not, other than "dont let them in, in the first place". Of course I guess a proper counter to that would be to seriously "not let them in" since a current problem may be that terrans need to improve upon proper detection mechanics, but I seriously think the infested terran does too much damage.
You say the infested terran does too much damage for just 25 energy? I think some theorycraft math would suggest otherwise. Both the infestor and the orbital regain energy at 0.5625 energy/second. This means an infestor can spawn a "free" IT every 44 seconds. An orbital can call down a mule every 89 seconds, which yields ~275 minerals, or 5 and 1/2 marines. This means an orbital can spawn a "free" marine every 17 seconds. So one orbital can make marines about 2 and 1/2 times faster. While an orbital costs 450 minerals and an infestor is only 100/150, I feel like that's a fair price comparison for the rate at which they can make marines. While 8 infestors dropping ITs in your base is frustrating, nothing stops you from investing in extra orbitals to have the same midgame capability. You do have to make an investment in medivacs to base snipe, but the big gas cost of infestors kind of balances that out. You get to keep your "free" marines if they survive. We don't. You can stim yours for better cost efficiency. Our marines can barely move. The only advantage I can concede for the IT is that it doesn't cost supply, giving Zerg the possibility of making an army past the 200/200 cap. But I think the problem is base sniping, not 250 supply IT deathballs. You may argue that the infestor allows you to make free marines even after resources have been exhausted (obviously not the case for orbitals), but again I don't think late game no-money IT base sniping is the predominant issue. I think overall the IT ability is fair, but the timing attack zergs have discovered brings up the issue of whether infestors should have the energy upgrade. As a Zerg player myself, I feel energy upgraded infestors can be a bit too convenient at times in defending, but then again I don't think they have the same potency as insta-storms. If anything should be nerfed, I think the first thing should be the energy upgrade, which would stop the timing attack. Leave it to a Zerg to try and bash the MULE at any chance they can possibly get, lawl (s+ddddddddddddddddddd). Your theorycrafting about the IT versus the Calldown MULE is ultra-fail, sorry. Being able to Summon +2 Attack Marines while invisible is pretty nice, but I don't think it's a huge problem. It gets exponentially worse with mass-infestor play, where the potential for like an additional 50-75+ (+2) marines can hit the field out of nowhere. But, I think this is somewhat leveled out by the fact that the mass-infestor takes up supply and does not have a non-energy attack. So, an infestor with Max Energy (happens all the time) can spawn 8 supply, while consuming 2 itself, but that 8 supply is temporary (30 seconds). IT seems pretty okay to me. I'm not familiar with the IT timing attack. Maybe ITs are a problem and I just don't know it yet. Fungal Growth attacking air is overkill. Remove that and that will go a long way.
Funny thing you mention that, the patch that removed VR speed was also supposed to make Fungal not hit air as compensation. However, a huge eruption of Zerg whine made Blizzard revert the Fungal change, but go through with the VR change anyway. Fun times.
And all that happened while speedrays didn't appear in high-profile games at all. So many changes that make no sense from today's perspective, but will probably never get reverted. 
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I thought the removal of VR speed was to help terran against mass void rays. Since you couldn't kite them with vikings anymore.
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On August 20 2011 05:38 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 05:01 TimeSpiral wrote:On August 20 2011 04:40 TheDraken wrote:On August 19 2011 15:53 Kingqway wrote:
What I believe is fucking up the match-up is the infested terran from the infestor, not the fungal growth. I believe fungal growth is an immensely powerful, but immensely needed tool for zerg. However, the infested terrans damage output for a 25 energy unit, is absolutely insane. I mean, it does slightly less than the marine unstimmed, but the fact that it has higher direct damage, makes it a much more viable unit for sniping structures. When you're going for ranged upgrades, this makes the ranged attack even stronger, making it snipe bases at a really fast rate. I don't believe casters should have the ability to destroy buildings the way infestors with infested terrans do. For comparison's sake, the raven's auto turret costs 50 energy, takes 4 blocks (so it needs open space to be casted), for the same damage. Of course, I'm not comparing the auto turret to try and say the auto turret should do more, but I'm trying to say the infested terran should do similar damage. Unlike the auto turret, the infested terran is an infantry/bio unit so it can deal way more damage in groups, since you can have much more firing at the same targets. Their slow-move ability also allows them to spread their damage once their target is destroyed. While you won't generally see this at the top level of plays, a few infestors dropped in the back of a base can do a serious amount of damage with the proper amount of energy. Not with fungal growth, but with shift-casting infested terrans so that you can have each infestor throw down all their energy's worth of infested terrans instantly, destroying structures before reinforcements can arrive. Unlike drop-based attacks from other races, infestors take only 6 supply, so the zerg army can be positioned elsewhere, while a main-army level threat is being posed in wherever the infestors were dropped. Protoss currently has a counter to this with Psionic storms, but terrans do not, other than "dont let them in, in the first place". Of course I guess a proper counter to that would be to seriously "not let them in" since a current problem may be that terrans need to improve upon proper detection mechanics, but I seriously think the infested terran does too much damage.
You say the infested terran does too much damage for just 25 energy? I think some theorycraft math would suggest otherwise. Both the infestor and the orbital regain energy at 0.5625 energy/second. This means an infestor can spawn a "free" IT every 44 seconds. An orbital can call down a mule every 89 seconds, which yields ~275 minerals, or 5 and 1/2 marines. This means an orbital can spawn a "free" marine every 17 seconds. So one orbital can make marines about 2 and 1/2 times faster. While an orbital costs 450 minerals and an infestor is only 100/150, I feel like that's a fair price comparison for the rate at which they can make marines. While 8 infestors dropping ITs in your base is frustrating, nothing stops you from investing in extra orbitals to have the same midgame capability. You do have to make an investment in medivacs to base snipe, but the big gas cost of infestors kind of balances that out. You get to keep your "free" marines if they survive. We don't. You can stim yours for better cost efficiency. Our marines can barely move. The only advantage I can concede for the IT is that it doesn't cost supply, giving Zerg the possibility of making an army past the 200/200 cap. But I think the problem is base sniping, not 250 supply IT deathballs. You may argue that the infestor allows you to make free marines even after resources have been exhausted (obviously not the case for orbitals), but again I don't think late game no-money IT base sniping is the predominant issue. I think overall the IT ability is fair, but the timing attack zergs have discovered brings up the issue of whether infestors should have the energy upgrade. As a Zerg player myself, I feel energy upgraded infestors can be a bit too convenient at times in defending, but then again I don't think they have the same potency as insta-storms. If anything should be nerfed, I think the first thing should be the energy upgrade, which would stop the timing attack. Leave it to a Zerg to try and bash the MULE at any chance they can possibly get, lawl (s+ddddddddddddddddddd). Your theorycrafting about the IT versus the Calldown MULE is ultra-fail, sorry. Being able to Summon +2 Attack Marines while invisible is pretty nice, but I don't think it's a huge problem. It gets exponentially worse with mass-infestor play, where the potential for like an additional 50-75+ (+2) marines can hit the field out of nowhere. But, I think this is somewhat leveled out by the fact that the mass-infestor takes up supply and does not have a non-energy attack. So, an infestor with Max Energy (happens all the time) can spawn 8 supply, while consuming 2 itself, but that 8 supply is temporary (30 seconds). IT seems pretty okay to me. I'm not familiar with the IT timing attack. Maybe ITs are a problem and I just don't know it yet. Fungal Growth attacking air is overkill. Remove that and that will go a long way. Funny thing you mention that, the patch that removed VR speed was also supposed to make Fungal not hit air as compensation. However, a huge eruption of Zerg whine made Blizzard revert the Fungal change, but go through with the VR change anyway. Fun times. And all that happened while speedrays didn't appear in high-profile games at all. So many changes that make no sense from today's perspective, but will probably never get reverted.
Remember, Blizzard also balances for team games. VR speed was removed because they were too good in team games.
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On August 20 2011 05:43 Sotamursu wrote:
I thought the removal of VR speed was to help terran against mass void rays. Since you couldn't kite them with vikings anymore.
Nope, it was supposed to fix lategame PvZ, because Kiwikaki kept beating Catz with mass speedray.
I wish I was actually joking, but I've never seen anyone except Kiwi use them in actual high-profile games. :/
On August 20 2011 05:46 Apolo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 05:38 Toadvine wrote:On August 20 2011 05:01 TimeSpiral wrote:On August 20 2011 04:40 TheDraken wrote:On August 19 2011 15:53 Kingqway wrote:
What I believe is fucking up the match-up is the infested terran from the infestor, not the fungal growth. I believe fungal growth is an immensely powerful, but immensely needed tool for zerg. However, the infested terrans damage output for a 25 energy unit, is absolutely insane. I mean, it does slightly less than the marine unstimmed, but the fact that it has higher direct damage, makes it a much more viable unit for sniping structures. When you're going for ranged upgrades, this makes the ranged attack even stronger, making it snipe bases at a really fast rate. I don't believe casters should have the ability to destroy buildings the way infestors with infested terrans do. For comparison's sake, the raven's auto turret costs 50 energy, takes 4 blocks (so it needs open space to be casted), for the same damage. Of course, I'm not comparing the auto turret to try and say the auto turret should do more, but I'm trying to say the infested terran should do similar damage. Unlike the auto turret, the infested terran is an infantry/bio unit so it can deal way more damage in groups, since you can have much more firing at the same targets. Their slow-move ability also allows them to spread their damage once their target is destroyed. While you won't generally see this at the top level of plays, a few infestors dropped in the back of a base can do a serious amount of damage with the proper amount of energy. Not with fungal growth, but with shift-casting infested terrans so that you can have each infestor throw down all their energy's worth of infested terrans instantly, destroying structures before reinforcements can arrive. Unlike drop-based attacks from other races, infestors take only 6 supply, so the zerg army can be positioned elsewhere, while a main-army level threat is being posed in wherever the infestors were dropped. Protoss currently has a counter to this with Psionic storms, but terrans do not, other than "dont let them in, in the first place". Of course I guess a proper counter to that would be to seriously "not let them in" since a current problem may be that terrans need to improve upon proper detection mechanics, but I seriously think the infested terran does too much damage.
You say the infested terran does too much damage for just 25 energy? I think some theorycraft math would suggest otherwise. Both the infestor and the orbital regain energy at 0.5625 energy/second. This means an infestor can spawn a "free" IT every 44 seconds. An orbital can call down a mule every 89 seconds, which yields ~275 minerals, or 5 and 1/2 marines. This means an orbital can spawn a "free" marine every 17 seconds. So one orbital can make marines about 2 and 1/2 times faster. While an orbital costs 450 minerals and an infestor is only 100/150, I feel like that's a fair price comparison for the rate at which they can make marines. While 8 infestors dropping ITs in your base is frustrating, nothing stops you from investing in extra orbitals to have the same midgame capability. You do have to make an investment in medivacs to base snipe, but the big gas cost of infestors kind of balances that out. You get to keep your "free" marines if they survive. We don't. You can stim yours for better cost efficiency. Our marines can barely move. The only advantage I can concede for the IT is that it doesn't cost supply, giving Zerg the possibility of making an army past the 200/200 cap. But I think the problem is base sniping, not 250 supply IT deathballs. You may argue that the infestor allows you to make free marines even after resources have been exhausted (obviously not the case for orbitals), but again I don't think late game no-money IT base sniping is the predominant issue. I think overall the IT ability is fair, but the timing attack zergs have discovered brings up the issue of whether infestors should have the energy upgrade. As a Zerg player myself, I feel energy upgraded infestors can be a bit too convenient at times in defending, but then again I don't think they have the same potency as insta-storms. If anything should be nerfed, I think the first thing should be the energy upgrade, which would stop the timing attack. Leave it to a Zerg to try and bash the MULE at any chance they can possibly get, lawl (s+ddddddddddddddddddd). Your theorycrafting about the IT versus the Calldown MULE is ultra-fail, sorry. Being able to Summon +2 Attack Marines while invisible is pretty nice, but I don't think it's a huge problem. It gets exponentially worse with mass-infestor play, where the potential for like an additional 50-75+ (+2) marines can hit the field out of nowhere. But, I think this is somewhat leveled out by the fact that the mass-infestor takes up supply and does not have a non-energy attack. So, an infestor with Max Energy (happens all the time) can spawn 8 supply, while consuming 2 itself, but that 8 supply is temporary (30 seconds). IT seems pretty okay to me. I'm not familiar with the IT timing attack. Maybe ITs are a problem and I just don't know it yet. Fungal Growth attacking air is overkill. Remove that and that will go a long way. Funny thing you mention that, the patch that removed VR speed was also supposed to make Fungal not hit air as compensation. However, a huge eruption of Zerg whine made Blizzard revert the Fungal change, but go through with the VR change anyway. Fun times. And all that happened while speedrays didn't appear in high-profile games at all. So many changes that make no sense from today's perspective, but will probably never get reverted. Remember, Blizzard also balances for team games. VR speed was removed because they were too good in team games.
And that is how much they support e-sports, I guess. I think like half the balance changes they've made have nothing to do with competitive gameplay.
Besides, do team games even normally get to a point where you can mass VRs? They might as well nerf Carriers or Battlecruisers, or Ravens. :/
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Yeah, the removal of the VR speed upgrade didn't and still doesn't make much sense.
I really dislike how Toss seem to have so few upgrades relative to Zerg and Terran.
Edit/ At above, yeah in some team games mass VR is still used (although perhaps not as much as before the nerf). It still is tremendously effective as a critical mass of VR just destroy bases (even with all the damage tweaking Blizzard have done to the unit).
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On August 20 2011 02:15 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 01:05 Ballistixz wrote:
im surprised no one has mentioned the cost effectiveness of the terran race yet.
bio+tanks is probally the most cost effective army in the entire game aside from broodlord+infestor.
medivacs DOUBLE as both drops ships and a potent healer spellcaster. medivacs give bio units extreme mobility while doubling as healers. to top it off its not that expensive. marines cost like 50 minerals + the cost of the medivac? a medivac filled with marines can cause so much havoc and to top it off its INSANELY EASY to do.
late game u just shift ur medivacs to expansions and drop ur marines and it causes so much disruption that you will need insanely high APM to keep up with something that only costs like 10 apm for the terran player to perform.
not only that but 3-3 marines are such potent units... they only cost 50 minerals and does so much dmg. marines are so good that its getting to a point where you NEED to hard counter them as zerg.
marines will destroy zerglings. marines will destroy roaches even harder. hydras=lol to marines. marines eat mutalisks for breakfast. and ultralisks are derp. so what are the options for zerg to counter marines?
A) you need banelings
B) you need infestors
or C) you need broodlords
thats pretty much our only options to combat tier 1 marines, the most BASIC of terran units. and at the end of the day, marine medivac tank is still more cost effective till you can get broodlords out.
infestors are honestly the zergs only saving grace. i cant imagine any zerg player beating a terran unless there 10x better then the terran player without infestors or if infestors become nerfed. alot of ppl say "lol make banelings" but they dont realize that its not that cost effective when 1 or 2 tank can take out 10 banelings with 1 shot.
all a GOOD terran needs to do is spread his tanks and marines. It is at least worthy to note that the Medivac cost as much as a Mutalisk, which I'd say is moderately priced at 100/100/2, but is supply in your army that does not attack. Sure, it doubles as a dropship, but I'd hardly say the race that has 100/0/+8 dropships with a speed upgrade, spellcaster morph, and creep spreader have any room to talk about that. The Medivac is not really an optional unit if you research Stim. You actually have to have it. And if you're going to use barracks play, you actually have to have Stim. So, you have to factor in the cost of Medivacs into your Marine cost. Plus, the speed nerf was a huge deal. You essentially cannot retreat now without losing all your Medivacs. Sure, it adds mobility from a terrain perspective, but they are god awfully slow now. It feels like the Terran is derp+clicking dropships all over the map and cleaning up expos in ezsoezmode, with 10 apm, but I can guarantee you that the Terran you face feel the same way when you're mass air is rolling all over the map wreaking havoc, and then during the big engagement you just derp+click your lingbling ball and derp+box your mutas over the whole thing, lawling all the way. Multi-tasking multiple drops while maintaining a steady push and fending off muta harass takes way more then 10 APM, tbh. It's very challenging to do well. The siege tank can be cost effective, but it can also be a game-ending liability. It is slow, extremely low health, causes friendly fire damage, and god forbid you get caught out of siege mode (insta-gg). To make the overall argument that Terran is cost effective, and then use medivacs and tank/marine, as the cornerstone of your argument is not very sound. It's an argument to be made, sure, but there are so many counter-arguments with Zergs versatility, and lets face it, mass-muta is one of the most valuable, cost effective plays in the game.
I don't think so. Terran is my worst off-race, but it's ridiculously easy to shift click two drop ships to separate locations, and feign a push with the main army. I have next to no experience as terran, but I can beat low diamond zergs pretty handily. With mutalisks, a few seconds worth of inattention can mean death, since marine dps/thor volley/missile turret is fearsome aa damage. I'll agree with you that a-moving a ling/bling ball is much easier than positioning tank/marine, but at higher levels, better players probably flank and micro their ground much better than I do.
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If your Nexus/CC is destroyed by infested terrans, the exact same thing would have hapenned if you were dropped by 16 marines, which is a much smaller investment and is far more efficient. People complaining about burrowed infestors are like people that say DTs are imbalanced because they require you to get detection wtf? If you spot the burrowed infestors, they are DEAD.
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I don't think anybody will debate that there has been a recent shift in the meta towards blueflame hellions. And anybody with half a brain can tell you that shifts in the meta only occur when people discover something imbalanced. So why weren't people using blueflame hellions before? What's changed that made them imbalanced?
The answer is obvious.
Blizzard needs to nerf the infernal preigniter upgrade icon back to its previous red flame. It's the only way to fix the game.
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On August 20 2011 03:22 TehForce wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 02:46 Huntz wrote:Also, I think there's a clear problem lategame PvT with ghosts. Both snipe and EMP are range 10, while feedback is only range 9. You might say the micro is hard, but with perfect micro from the terran player you end up with this situation where it's literally impossible for the protoss to do anything.
Splitting templar doesn't help when the terran is good enough to double snipe every templar individually (i.e. see SlayerS.taeJa vs ZeNEX.Puzzle game 1 on Katrina AE from the iCCup Nationvoice Korean weekly week 7 semifinals). Since templar feedback range is shorter than the snipe range if the terran micros correctly like we see taeja do, there is literally no way for templar to beat ghosts. QFT. I mean seriously, EMP out ranges feedback and storm by 3 (!) if used at max range. That's absolutely ridiculous. If the terran plays perfectly, he'll win every mid/late game TvP. That shouldn't have happen. EMP is difficult to cast at max range and has a very slight cast time, so I think range 8 or even 8.5 would be reasonable, so it still out ranges feedback at maximum range but at perfect skill I think both can go off simultaneously . Snipe might be OK as is because I think feedback/snipe can go off at the same time, otherwise a nerf to 9.5 range would fix it. Just think about it. Blanket EMPs + no storm will always result in a victory for Terran. In theory emp outranges feedback and so emp always wins. But it will never be the case that pro-gameplay reaches that level because it is impossible. You can't have 100% focus on every ghost of yours 100% of the time. So exactly at the moment you are focused on other stuff protoss player can feedback you. Also army positioning and moving (which is almost non existent even in pro play) can greatly decrease the effectiveness of the emp. 14 emps on 7 high templar doesn't sound that good, right?
What you're essentially saying is, "EMP in theory always beats Feedback, but to do that, Terran players actually have to always pay attention to their micro, and if they ever stop paying attention, a Protoss who is always paying attention to his micro will win".
Yeah. The guy that pays attention to micro should win the engagement >_> I don't see how that's relevant. The real problem here is that no matter how well the Protoss micros, if the Terran micros well, HTs cannot come out on top against Ghosts, but Ghosts can come out on top against HTs.
Of course, this is all under the assumption that HTs and Ghosts are supposed to fight on even ground to begin with. Perhaps Protoss is meant to deal with Ghosts through other means.
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Stop comparing FF and fungal. Thats not even remotely a fair comparison, even if you disregard the fact that YOU CANT MAKE DIRECT COMPARISONS. If you have a problem with that, go play WC2.
Having said that, fungal I believe isn't too bad at lair tech. You can deal with it if you are competent. The problem is the synergy of Hive with infestors. Specifically, not only is this composition quite good, by using ling/infestor, the zerg can save up a lot of gas to explode in hive units.
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EPT
