On August 19 2011 12:05 MaestrO_ wrote: Maybe take away infestor burrow movement? idk. Its just so frustrating when 5 infestors sneak into a 3rd or whatever, puke up a bunch of infested terran, kill a mineral like, maybe even the command center itself, and it costed them nothing but energy to do.
Make Turrets/Cannons/PF? As long as you have a PF and turrets or cannons, you should be relatively safe from Infestor harrass
If anything, infested terrans might need a look at, since zerg players have started using them a lot more recently and people are realizing they're quite strong for costing nothing but energy.
On August 19 2011 11:43 MilesTeg wrote: I wonder what people have seen that make them think fungal is OP. I guess it's natural that a unit that was buffed and got from being almost never used to very common is perceived as overpowered.But I don't remember ever seeing engagements that made me think "this is bullshit the zerg should've never won!".
It's not fungal so much as the infestor's utiity in general, and it's not because it creates situations where Z wins retardedly when they shouldn't.
It's just that it's viable, even needed, against just about every composition. Fungal rapes large numbers of small units, while NP counters small numbers of heavy units. Fungal denies harass, decloaks, denies positioning, denies retreat. burrow-move infestors have tremendous harass tools as well as the speed and mobility to do that unsupported, and straight-up IT spam in any situation is surprisingly powerful.
The infestor just does everything, but obviously a blanket nerf is crazy. The unit is strong precisely because it has to be strong for Z to compete in a ton of different situations. I just feel like it's disproportionately important to Z mid/late game. I struggle to think of a situation in which I wouldn't want infestors as Z, and perhaps that suggests the unit - the unit, not the race - is a little broken.
On August 19 2011 11:43 MilesTeg wrote: I wonder what people have seen that make them think fungal is OP. I guess it's natural that a unit that was buffed and got from being almost never used to very common is perceived as overpowered.But I don't remember ever seeing engagements that made me think "this is bullshit the zerg should've never won!".
It's not fungal so much as the infestor's utiity in general, and it's not because it creates situations where Z wins retardedly when they shouldn't.
It's just that it's viable, even needed, against just about every composition. Fungal rapes large numbers of small units, while NP counters small numbers of heavy units. Fungal denies harass, decloaks, denies positioning, denies retreat. IT + burrow or fungal + burrow, has tremendous harass potential as well as the speed and mobility to do that unsupported, and IT spam in any situation is surprisingly powerful.
The infestor just does everything. Obviously a straight-up nerf is crazy, though. The unit is so strong because it has to be so strong for Z to compete in a ton of different situations. But perhaps the unit - the unit, not the race - is a little broken.
It's not that it can't be countered, it's just that I struggle to think of a situation in which I wouldn't want infestors as Z.
I would certainly agree that the infestor is broken.
Infested Terran and NP can attack air. They should have stuck to their guns and nerfed FG being able to attack air. It was ridiculous that they back-peddled on that just because of Zerg tears. They were actually trying to nerf the infestor for several months, then decided a buff was probably better ... lol.
On August 19 2011 10:10 Trealador wrote: My only complaint about Colossi is the fact they are too good at fighting all ground. In my opinion Colossi should do reduced damage to armored but the same against light. That way Protoss can no longer just go colossus blindly to counter practically all other units on the ground when the Immortal is intended for killing armored.
I understand Colossi are tier 3, but they should be much less effective or a rewarding choice against heavy roach or marauder builds. Too many times Protoss blindly make colossi are are greatly effective when no other unit really has this luxury. For example a unit like the Thor. These are rarely produced blindly although they are very good units in a lot of situations. Blindly rushing to it will most of the time end with you being killed because zealots, marauders, and zealots/stalker clean them up so quickly. I understand vikings have a really easy counter which is air, but so do broodlords and I know people don't complain nearly as much about broodlords as they do colossi.
If this takes readjusting the cost of Immortals to compensate that would be fine by me. In all fairness it would probably help with the 1/1/1 all in making them a much more attractive choice early.
Just some thoughts.
As much as I would love to agree with this statement, I don't. Mass Marauder are so good against Protoss. Which I personally find pretty stupid. To nerf the collosi against Armored(Which i would love since I Mech in TvP) would make Marauders so good. Terran could forget all about vikings and mass pump straight Marauder Medic.
I would only agree to that change if and only if Marauders were made more like a 1 food glass cannon that's good against armored. Kind of like the firebat, but good against Armored.
They could even reduce the size of the marauder and make it a cute little bringer of terrible terrible damage.
What I am hearing is Protoss crying that because Colossus don't carry their entire army with 1 tech they thinks it's underpowered. If you read the post I was saying, why does a unit that does insane damage versus light also do very very well against armored? Isn't that what the Immortal is for?
I think we can all agree that any further comments about EMP vs Feedback/Storm has been beaten to death in this thread and should really no longer be brought up.
Also, we understand the 1/1/1 is fairly broken, so unless you have a strategy that you think will counter it, please keep the uproar to yourself. Again it's been beaten to death and while I agree it may be overpowered I don't like reading it every other post.
What I am hearing is Protoss crying that because Colossus don't carry their entire army with 1 tech they thinks it's underpowered. If you read the post I was saying, why does a unit that does insane damage versus light also do very very well against armored? Isn't that what the Immortal is for?
I think we can all agree that any further comments about EMP vs Feedback/Storm has been beaten to death in this thread and should really no longer be brought up.
Also, we understand the 1/1/1 is fairly broken, so unless you have a strategy that you think will counter it, please keep the uproar to yourself. Again it's been beaten to death and while I agree it may be overpowered I don't like reading it every other post.
Thanks.
One, could your opening sentence be a little more antagonistic? I think there's a couple of protoss left reading this thread who are still sympathetic to your position.
Two, I'm genuinely curious; where do you get the idea that P want colossi to carry their army?
Even when colossi were considered broken (largely thanks to Idra and Artosis), most toss would have welcomed a nerf if they gave us something else as an alternative. Instead they nerfed our templar, and Terrans simultaneously realised how good ghosts were against our entire race, and so we're coming back around to colossus tech as something that does okay against ghosts.
On August 19 2011 11:45 aZealot wrote: The Immortal also needs to be reworked, as I think Blizzard have acknowledged. It is really a Gateway unit (the old Dragoon) being built out of the Robo. If this unit is nerfed in some way and buffed in some way (at least in terms of cost; 250/100 is way too expensive) then it can return to the Gateway, and perhaps form the core of a Gateway army in its original envisaged tanking role. This might also increase the small unit efficiency of Protoss armies with more Zealots, Immortals, Sentries on the fie;d. This would also mean that Protoss can finally use the Robo to blanket the map with observers and free up room for Warp Prism use before the Colossus becomes available.
Just some thoughts regarding Protoss from a Protoss player.
I agree completely, I think Immortals should be moved to the Gateway, heavily readjusted, and made as more of a tanking unit. On the other hand, the Sentry should take its place in the Robo Facility, with a reduced build time to compensate.
THIS^^^
No more ff when i have the bigger army and he is being greedy expanding so I can actually win :D
4. Low tier(mineral heavy) Terran units are too strong?
I feel like this is why because all you need is a bit of gas to go early blue flame helion which gives you full map control and forces zerg to play perfectly or to go roaches which isnt as strong against later game compositions.
OR:
Terran can do a 2 rax or helion opening and possibly cripple the zerg making it almost impossible to deal with the combat/stim push with 1 medivac and 3 tanks later on.
The idea behind it is to not allow zerg to simply drone to 60 and to deny them being as greedy as possible. I have played both sides of the table, and if he goes in with 6-8 bfh and you deny any damage with roaches or spines with great defense you are unbelievably ahead. It works like any other timing, if you don't see it coming and play too greedy is slaps you across the face. Stim pushes can also be very deadly to deal with, doesn't mean it's OP, just means you need to scout better or play safer.
What I am hearing is Protoss crying that because Colossus don't carry their entire army with 1 tech they thinks it's underpowered. If you read the post I was saying, why does a unit that does insane damage versus light also do very very well against armored? Isn't that what the Immortal is for?
I think we can all agree that any further comments about EMP vs Feedback/Storm has been beaten to death in this thread and should really no longer be brought up.
Also, we understand the 1/1/1 is fairly broken, so unless you have a strategy that you think will counter it, please keep the uproar to yourself. Again it's been beaten to death and while I agree it may be overpowered I don't like reading it every other post.
Thanks.
One, could your opening sentence be a little more antagonistic? I think there's a couple of protoss left reading this thread who are still sympathetic to your position.
Two, I'm genuinely curious; where do you get the idea that P want colossi to carry their army?
Even when colossi were considered broken (largely thanks to Idra and Artosis), most toss would have welcomed a nerf if they gave us something else as an alternative. Instead they nerfed our templar, and Terrans simultaneously realised how good ghosts were against our entire race, and so we're coming back around to colossus tech as something that does okay against ghosts.
Firstly, I feel that no strategy is overpowered/broken. It is just how it is executed/stopped.
Secondly, I strongly think that all protoss needs is a fast, small and relatively cheap harrassing unit. With such a unit, it makes drop play available for toss, which will also open up many more possibilities for toss to play. People always complain that toss is ez and non-micro heavy. However, I feel otherwise. Toss have not known much tactics involving micro, therefore the lack of micro. What happens when you load template in warp prism and use it as a mobile pylon to immediately reinforce your units? What happens when you warp dts right in the middle of your opponent's units? These opens up sooo many ways to engage the Terran army easily. I am sure once people start involving carrier strategies into the metagame, the game will change more.
Lastly, I believe the cause of whines from brotosses are the lack of easier way to switch tech. Terran switch tech with tech labs while zerg's tech comes from its tech structures with a wide techtree. However, toss's tech tree is very complicated, with little chance for tech change without sacrificing the current tech. Just my two cents.
On August 19 2011 12:59 Trealador wrote: Also, we understand the 1/1/1 is fairly broken, so unless you have a strategy that you think will counter it, please keep the uproar to yourself. Again it's been beaten to death and while I agree it may be overpowered I don't like reading it every other post.
Thanks.
I saw ogsHero stomp some variant with fast charge. Stomp hard.
I'm really glad I haven't wandered into this thread before, geez...
For one thing, if a Z is able to purely fungal you to death, you either have like 10 zealots and that's it, or something is wrong with your micro. Learn to spread out? Infestors die so easily, all you have to do is hit them and they die (or feedback them).
Fungal isn't a spell like emp, storm, or force field that you can set and forget from long ass range. Only in rare cases do you only want to fungal once, which means the infestor is always in danger of dying.
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For another thing, learn to defend yourself against invis units. It would be ridiculous to say that infestors burrowing is imbalanced because they can kill a building if you skimp on your detection/defense. 5 Dark Templars (using your example of 5 infestors) can kill a CC just as fast, 2 (or 1 depending on energy) High Templer can kill a mineral like just as fast, 2 Blue Flame Hellions can kill a mineral line just as fast, same with a few banshees (5? Kill buildings AND the harvestors) OR with a few medivacs of bio (Stimmed marauders anyone?).
None of those cost the player anything. Only Nukes and Banelings cost actual resources to kill something. Every other unit in the game attacks for free. Killing a building or unit that doesn't attack back for the cost of energy is actually worse than most units in the game that can auto attack forever...
On August 19 2011 12:59 Trealador wrote: Also, we understand the 1/1/1 is fairly broken, so unless you have a strategy that you think will counter it, please keep the uproar to yourself. Again it's been beaten to death and while I agree it may be overpowered I don't like reading it every other post.
Thanks.
I saw ogsHero stomp some variant with fast charge. Stomp hard.
Let's hope protoss tech charge faster and we can never see talk of the 1/1/1 being OP again. So we can get back to people bitching about storm vs EMP.
For the record, if storms get off you win, if EMP gets off they have a chance. And when you feedback a ghost they can't make archons.
On August 19 2011 13:42 fant0m wrote: I'm really glad I haven't wandered into this thread before, geez...
For one thing, if a Z is able to purely fungal you to death, you either have like 10 zealots and that's it, or something is wrong with your micro. Learn to spread out? Infestors die so easily, all you have to do is hit them and they die (or feedback them).
Fungal isn't a spell like emp, storm, or force field that you can set and forget from long ass range. Only in rare cases do you only want to fungal once, which means the infestor is always in danger of dying.
----------
For another thing, learn to defend yourself against invis units. It would be ridiculous to say that infestors burrowing is imbalanced because they can kill a building if you skimp on your detection/defense. 5 Dark Templars (using your example of 5 infestors) can kill a CC just as fast, 2 (or 1 depending on energy) High Templer can kill a mineral like just as fast, 2 Blue Flame Hellions can kill a mineral line just as fast, same with a few banshees (5? Kill buildings AND the harvestors) OR with a few medivacs of bio (Stimmed marauders anyone?).
None of those cost the player anything. Only Nukes and Banelings cost actual resources to kill something. Every other unit in the game attacks for free. Killing a building or unit that doesn't attack back for the cost of energy is actually worse than most units in the game that can auto attack forever...
You don't literally lose from getting hit by fungal, you lose 20 or so marines because of 1 seconds fungal. If they storm you can run out of it to try and stop the damage. With fungal once you are caught your dead is the point. It's the same thing though for storms in a way, EMP hits max 6-8 units depending on what it is. Storms hit 10-20 units depending on what it is. Not to mention feedback is useful against ghosts, banshees, medivacs, thors, BCs, and ravens.
I want to begin by saying this is not a Infestor whine post, but since we're on the topic of Infestors.
I believe they've become the catch all unit to all of Zerg's issues do the the inefficiency of some of their Tier 2 tech.
Zerg needed a unit to deal with Mass Tier1's. Fungal. Zerg needed a unit to help with Siege Tanks - Burrow move-Infested Terrans. Zerg needed something to deal with Blink Stalkers, Fungal. Zerg needs to a unit to help with the Protoss Death balls, +% Against Armoured. Zerg needed a unit to help with Anti-Air, Fungal. Zerg needed some help to deal with Tier 3 of other races, Neural Parasite.
This was a taken from a post that I read on Bnet a while back that I think summarizes the utility of Infestors. I can't find the source right now. I believe Infestors have become an essential support unit that helps in all of Zerg's engagements.
I want to make it clear that I'm not complaining about the Infestor. As a Terran player I have found ways to deal with them myself. Usually involving a very slow and meticulous Siege Tank-Leap Frog/Crawl and spread out Marines and A LOT of saved up scans.
I don't think Infestors are not units that instant win the game. They force Terrans to micro and position well, but that is part of the game. But when I do see them come out, I know it's time to push before I see Brood-Ultra Techswitch going on.
On August 19 2011 11:45 aZealot wrote: The Immortal also needs to be reworked, as I think Blizzard have acknowledged. It is really a Gateway unit (the old Dragoon) being built out of the Robo. If this unit is nerfed in some way and buffed in some way (at least in terms of cost; 250/100 is way too expensive) then it can return to the Gateway, and perhaps form the core of a Gateway army in its original envisaged tanking role. This might also increase the small unit efficiency of Protoss armies with more Zealots, Immortals, Sentries on the fie;d. This would also mean that Protoss can finally use the Robo to blanket the map with observers and free up room for Warp Prism use before the Colossus becomes available.
Just some thoughts regarding Protoss from a Protoss player.
I agree completely, I think Immortals should be moved to the Gateway, heavily readjusted, and made as more of a tanking unit. On the other hand, the Sentry should take its place in the Robo Facility, with a reduced build time to compensate.
I don't agree, dude. That would weaken the Protoss early fame far too much. We need the sentry as a gateway unit, and we need FF and GS. Otherwise, Protoss Gateway units will just die.
On August 19 2011 11:43 MilesTeg wrote: I wonder what people have seen that make them think fungal is OP. I guess it's natural that a unit that was buffed and got from being almost never used to very common is perceived as overpowered.But I don't remember ever seeing engagements that made me think "this is bullshit the zerg should've never won!".
It's not fungal so much as the infestor's utiity in general, and it's not because it creates situations where Z wins retardedly when they shouldn't.
It's just that it's viable, even needed, against just about every composition. Fungal rapes large numbers of small units, while NP counters small numbers of heavy units. Fungal denies harass, decloaks, denies positioning, denies retreat. IT + burrow or fungal + burrow, has tremendous harass potential as well as the speed and mobility to do that unsupported, and IT spam in any situation is surprisingly powerful.
The infestor just does everything. Obviously a straight-up nerf is crazy, though. The unit is so strong because it has to be so strong for Z to compete in a ton of different situations. But perhaps the unit - the unit, not the race - is a little broken.
It's not that it can't be countered, it's just that I struggle to think of a situation in which I wouldn't want infestors as Z.
I would certainly agree that the infestor is broken.
Infested Terran and NP can attack air. They should have stuck to their guns and nerfed FG being able to attack air. It was ridiculous that they back-peddled on that just because of Zerg tears. They were actually trying to nerf the infestor for several months, then decided a buff was probably better ... lol.
Infestors are the only good anti air that Zerg really have. Terrans have cost efficient and powerful AA with marines and vikings. Protoss have very mobile AA with high utility with their blink stalks and phoenix. What do zerg have? Corruptors, whos corruption ability is hardly comparable to graviton beam and being able to land. They have hydras, who are expensive and un-stimmable versions of marines AND cant get medivac support. Queens too, but they are even more immobile than the hydras.
Infested Terrans are only good AA in conjuction with Fungal. Any opponent will see the eggs and be lightyears away by the time they hatch. While making them run has its merits, its nothing compared to killing ability. Fix Zerg AA and I would be completely fine with FG not being able to hit air
On August 19 2011 11:43 MilesTeg wrote: I wonder what people have seen that make them think fungal is OP. I guess it's natural that a unit that was buffed and got from being almost never used to very common is perceived as overpowered.But I don't remember ever seeing engagements that made me think "this is bullshit the zerg should've never won!".
It's not fungal so much as the infestor's utiity in general, and it's not because it creates situations where Z wins retardedly when they shouldn't.
It's just that it's viable, even needed, against just about every composition. Fungal rapes large numbers of small units, while NP counters small numbers of heavy units. Fungal denies harass, decloaks, denies positioning, denies retreat. burrow-move infestors have tremendous harass tools as well as the speed and mobility to do that unsupported, and straight-up IT spam in any situation is surprisingly powerful.
The infestor just does everything, but obviously a blanket nerf is crazy. The unit is strong precisely because it has to be strong for Z to compete in a ton of different situations. I just feel like it's disproportionately important to Z mid/late game. I struggle to think of a situation in which I wouldn't want infestors as Z, and perhaps that suggests the unit - the unit, not the race - is a little broken.
Fungal rapes large numbers of small units, such as what? Marines? They are easily spread out and mass produced.
Stalkers? They need to learn to not deathball as much. Problem is, people complain about constant fungal growth when they pump out like 1k gas of infestors......its 1k gas, suppose to not be easy to beat.
EPT
