EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 38
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Loodah
335 Posts
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koolaid1990
831 Posts
On August 20 2011 17:38 Loodah wrote: I don't get why people think SC1 is so balanced - is it just because of the fact that it's gone through a decade of metagame changes? Because it sure as hell was not balanced in terms of win rate - Protoss got the short end of the stick in that game... I know right? there were ZERO protoss bonjwas in sc1. Why does everyone think its balanced? | ||
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andiCR
Costa Rica2273 Posts
On August 20 2011 17:38 Loodah wrote: I don't get why people think SC1 is so balanced - is it just because of the fact that it's gone through a decade of metagame changes? Because it sure as hell was not balanced in terms of win rate - Protoss got the short end of the stick in that game... Did you ever watch or play sc1? :/ There were times of times.. times of the seven dragons (all protosses dominating) and times of Flash and Jaedong (I believe Bisu was on par with these two for a LOT of time). Hard times for the Protoss race (like when the only Protoss standing was mantoss Reach) where never a problem after nalra started forge expanding vs zerg, a very hard matchup before. | ||
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Micket
United Kingdom2163 Posts
On August 20 2011 17:43 koolaid1990 wrote: I know right? there were ZERO protoss bonjwas in sc1. Why does everyone think its balanced? Because Protoss still won 50% of their games and to this day, there are many excellent Protoss players. Just look at yesterdays pro league finals, Protoss did extremely well. By your statement, if Protoss was so weak, then surely after 10 years of playing, the race would have been abandoned by now, like undead in wc3. Nope, it's still played 33% of the time, with a 50% win percentage. Does Nesteas dominance mean that Terran and Protoss have the short end of thte stick? No. Outside of Flash and Fantasy, can you name an impressive BW Terran player who could win a Starleague soon? You can't look at bonjwas and say Protoss is incredibly weak. If someone had Storks PvT and Bisus PvZ, that person would be very hard to beat. I dpnt know where you got the statistics for low win rate because it is definitely not true. Edit: Just look at this http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/leagues/710_Shinhan10-11_Proleague Looks close to 50% for me. Tis is not a perfect map pool yet we have the EXACT statistics you would expect to have. Historically, it has always been T>Z>P>T and it is no different here. Where is the Terran dominance you expect? I thought Protoss got the short stick in this game... Why is the person that got the most wins in the season with the best record a Protoss player. Win rates for this years Proleague: Protoss : 51% Zerg: 50% Terran: 49% This game seems quite balanced to me. | ||
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Loodah
335 Posts
On August 20 2011 17:53 Micket wrote: Because Protoss still won 50% of their games and to this day, there are many excellent Protoss players. Just look at yesterdays pro league finals, Protoss did extremely well. By your statement, if Protoss was so weak, then surely after 10 years of playing, the race would have been abandoned by now, like undead in wc3. Nope, it's still played 33% of the time, with a 50% win percentage. Does Nesteas dominance mean that Terran and Protoss have the short end of thte stick? No. Outside of Flash and Fantasy, can you name an impressive BW Terran player who could win a Starleague soon? You can't look at bonjwas and say Protoss is incredibly weak. If someone had Storks PvT and Bisus PvZ, that person would be very hard to beat. I dpnt know where you got the statistics for low win rate because it is definitely not true. I did play SC1 I was B All of the bonjwas does say something about balance. It's not the only reason - look at the proleague statistics - it's not actually 50 percent or even close = / anyways I was just wondering why? I don't want sc2 to ever become like sc1 was. I want it to be different in many many ways including balance. | ||
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Ballistixz
United States1269 Posts
On August 20 2011 03:00 TimeSpiral wrote: This notion that Zerg macro is somehow harder, or requires more keystrokes just seems like a self-stroking myth. And if you bring it up to the top levels, like you're saying, spawning larva is a tremendous advantage, not an impediment. Zerg's production capability is gassless, and focused around interval-spellcasting. The production is automatically scaled with the natural process of expanding. No one is contesting that Infestors fungal growth in regards to marines should be changed. I'm contending that it should not hit air units, or that the mechanic for affecting air units should be significantly altered. its actually not a myth. once you are a master zerg missing injections is game breaking ESPECIALLY when you are doing timing atks/pushes. each injection you miss is a wave of units that have not spawned. for ever extra 25 energy that is on your queen that is +4 units that have not been spawned. if u have 50 energy on a queen then that means u missed 2 injects which also means you have 8 less units then you could have had from that hatchery. this is why sniping queens hurts zergs more then you would think. if you cant keep up with your injects or your queens get constantly sniped that puts the zergs macro further and further behind. and guess what? u cant recover from it. keeping up with injects is easy early game when nothing is going on and you only have 2 or 3 hatches to deal with, but try it mid-late game where u have 5-7 hatches on the map + trying to harass with ur units + trying to manage ur infestors + trying and fungal+trying to defend agains the enemies harass + trying to keep all of ur injections up to par. you need to keep up with injects or toss/terran will just out macro u. mules and chrono is much more forgiving. its not as easy as ppl think it is. people like idra only make it look easy because idra has INSANE multitasking abilities. also as far as the marine issue, they are obviously the most potent tier 1 units in game. i think that combat shields should either get nerfed or it should be removed entirely and replaced with a marine range upgrade. (this nerf would be in response to any kind of infestor nerf btw) i honestly find it kinda silly that on certain maps or in close spawns a 2-4 racks pure marine push is insanely strong and it takes almost everything from both toss and zerg to fend it off. and it only cost 50 minerals from terran so they can happily expand while spamming pure marines. and this will go on untill zerg/toss makes a unit to hard counter marines. its honestly stupid strong for the cost. and once combat shields finishes it gets even more stupidly strong. | ||
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Sotamursu
Finland612 Posts
On August 20 2011 22:39 Ballistixz wrote: + Show Spoiler + On August 20 2011 03:00 TimeSpiral wrote: This notion that Zerg macro is somehow harder, or requires more keystrokes just seems like a self-stroking myth. And if you bring it up to the top levels, like you're saying, spawning larva is a tremendous advantage, not an impediment. Zerg's production capability is gassless, and focused around interval-spellcasting. The production is automatically scaled with the natural process of expanding. No one is contesting that Infestors fungal growth in regards to marines should be changed. I'm contending that it should not hit air units, or that the mechanic for affecting air units should be significantly altered. its actually not a myth. once you are a master zerg missing injections is game breaking ESPECIALLY when you are doing timing atks/pushes. each injection you miss is a wave of units that have not spawned. for ever extra 25 energy that is on your queen that is +4 units that have not been spawned. if u have 50 energy on a queen then that means u missed 2 injects which also means you have 8 less units then you could have had from that hatchery. this is why sniping queens hurts zergs more then you would think. if you cant keep up with your injects or your queens get constantly sniped that puts the zergs macro further and further behind. and guess what? u cant recover from it. keeping up with injects is easy early game when nothing is going on and you only have 2 or 3 hatches to deal with, but try it mid-late game where u have 5-7 hatches on the map + trying to harass with ur units + trying to manage ur infestors + trying and fungal+trying to defend agains the enemies harass + trying to keep all of ur injections up to par. you need to keep up with injects or toss/terran will just out macro u. mules and chrono is much more forgiving. its not as easy as ppl think it is. people like idra only make it look easy because idra has INSANE multitasking abilities. also as far as the marine issue, they are obviously the most potent tier 1 units in game. i think that combat shields should either get nerfed or it should be removed entirely and replaced with a marine range upgrade. (this nerf would be in response to any kind of infestor nerf btw) i honestly find it kinda silly that on certain maps or in close spawns a 2-4 racks pure marine push is insanely strong and it takes almost everything from both toss and zerg to fend it off. and it only cost 50 minerals from terran so they can happily expand while spamming pure marines. and this will go on untill zerg/toss makes a unit to hard counter marines. its honestly stupid strong for the cost. and once combat shields finishes it gets even more stupidly strong Your post sounds extremely biased. You can't compared larva inject only to chronoboost and mules when talking about production waves. Missing a production wave as T or P is going to hurt you just as much. You can snipe add-ons or pylons from the other races just as you can snipe queens from Zerg. Marines might be strong, but they are also a unit that can be cost-effectively killed by a lot different things. Changing marines would mean changing the whole game. | ||
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Salteador Neo
Andorra5591 Posts
On August 20 2011 15:56 reneg wrote: I feel like you're lacking a general theory through your thread. Not to attack your ideas, but let's think about them constructively? 1. I don't know if it's necessarily the marines that are the overpowered unit. What could be done instead of just moving the HP around (while discussed earlier in the thread, and possibly a good idea), it might be good to consider something like the u-15 upgrade in BW (increased the range of the marine). I feel like drastically reducing the HP of the marine by 1 whole ling hit would also drastically change the state of the game in TvZ. Throw in fungals, and you stim, and you literally kill all your marines (if you don't have the HP upgrade). 2. Banshees - are we trying to pigeonhole them into a harass unit too much? they already move pretty slowly (in comparison to other harass units), and while they can cloak, they still cost a lot of gas, and build comparatively very slowly. People often say that "DTs are countered by spore crawlers / turrets." and that's why they "suck" as a harass unit. Just because they can be seen, doesn't mean they still don't 1shot workers. So if you can catch a player off guard, you can make out with a fair few worker kills. A similar vein with the banshee, 1 photon cannon / spore / turret shuts down harass at a particular mineral line. 3. I'm unconvinced that the infestor needs a lot of work. Yes, it is an extremely powerful caster unit, but ghosts and templar are equally powerful. Feedback and EMP can do massive amounts of 'damage' even if it's just depleting the energy in the infestor. (As for the VR comment, i don't know what to say to that, I feel like VRs can deal massive amounts of damage i certain situations, esp PvZ). I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything, i'm just trying to provide counter arguments to the ideas you've put forward, so we can flush them out and come up with something actually good. Yeah I also thought about the range upgrade to marines from BW, but I feel that would be too many uogrades already in one building (4 in the tech lab), and making marines a bag of "must-have" upgrades. Problem with Banshees is that they are just too good at a-moving over a marine swarm against protoss IMO. They are already a sick harass unit that ends TvPs and TvTs by itself if not hard-countered fast. Static defense isn't that great either because of their range. Infestors are just nonsense IMO. Most cost-effective unit in the game in the macro race that FE's with no risk. Counters everything in the protoss arsenal but HT, and comes into the play with energy to fungal. They were already decent before the buff but they were overlooked since everyone focused in the early game because of stim and 4gate timings (and the imba QQ). The infestor and some terran stuff might be needing a nerf in the near future for the sake of balance IMO, just like a lot other stuff has been drastically changed over the past year. Apparently Blizz doesn't like to go "gently" and delicate in their balance changes. Like the nerfs to reapers, VR, WG timing... etc. Killing flies with cannon shots. Wrong way to go for sure IMO. They overdid it a few times and broke the game in different ways. Btw nice answers and forgive my not-so-good english  | ||
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Fig
United States1324 Posts
EDIT: In fact, I think that the longer that SC2 is out, the easier it will be to learn zerg. Think about it. At the dawn of the game, everyone was experimenting. Each player had their own strategy and unit composition, so even playing 10 ZvPs in a row, the zerg would experience completely different games each time. Now that people have found some things to be more optimal than others, builds have become more "standard." Zergs can now better expect what will be coming their way, and therefore only have a few things for which to prepare. For example, DT or stargate = need some spores/queens. 6 gate = need to pump out lings/roaches. There is less for the zerg to worry about so they can better craft their counter strategies. I think that is a huge part of why zergs had so much trouble when the game first came out. And I believe some aggression from the other races might have been nerfed due to zergs not being able to deal with the endless possibilities. Now that zergs can expect things, I know tosses feel that their remaining harass abilities are very weak, and that they have to go "all-in" to deal damage. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
For me, personally, macroing while harassing with Mutas in ZvT is a lot easier than executing my build correctly while doing Stargate/Zealot harass in PvZ. It's just a question of how much time you have to spend looking away from your units. | ||
Arnovic
Netherlands49 Posts
Protoss units are able to be warped in when a gateway is transformed into a warpgate. It's how the game works. After that warp-in the warpgate has a cooldown (So essentially they have to wait the same ammount of time for a new unit). With Zerg and Terran units firsthave to be 'built', 'trained' or 'created'. After a period of time they are ready to fight in battle. This all sounds reasonable, right? If you research the Pathogen Glands upgrade for infestors as Zerg, they recieve extra mana / energy when they spawn in or 'are ready for battle'. Same with Terran, when the Moebius Reactor is researched ghost spawn with more energy. Now I ask, based on the game's mechanics, why in the hell is the Khaydarin Amulet upgrade removed from the game? Edit: Typos | ||
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Josealtron
United States219 Posts
On August 20 2011 23:50 Arnovic wrote: I've got some questions about the removal of Khaydarin Amulet. Protoss units are able to be warped in when a gateway is transformed into a warpgate. It's how the game works. After that warp-in the warpgate has a cooldown (So essentially they have to wait the same ammount of time for a new unit). With Zerg and Terran units firsthave to be 'built', 'trained' or 'created'. After a period of time they are ready to fight in battle. This all sounds reasonable, right? If you research the Pathogen Glands upgrade for infestors as Zerg, they recieve extra mana / energy when they spawn in or 'are ready for battle'. Same with Terran, when the Moebius Reactor is researched ghost spawn with more energy. Now I ask, based on the game's mechanics, why in the hell is the Khaydarin Amulet upgrade removed from the game? Edit: Typos Because the Protoss warp in mechanic would basically mean that you can have instant storms pretty much anywhere, as long as you had gas, and storm would come out much faster, and the templar additionally have the ability to turn into archons. So you could just warp in 4 templar at the battle, storm 4 times, and have 2 archons instantly. It was rather broken | ||
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Arnovic
Netherlands49 Posts
On August 20 2011 23:56 Josealtron wrote: Because the Protoss warp in mechanic would basically mean that you can have instant storms pretty much anywhere, as long as you had gas, and storm would come out much faster, and the templar additionally have the ability to turn into archons. So you could just warp in 4 templar at the battle, storm 4 times, and have 2 archons instantly. It was rather broken Disagreed, if a player was always warping in when his warpgates where on cooldown he has to get 'lucky' with the cooldown timing or just wait. Infestors have instant fungal when they spawn too, same as ghost. | ||
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Resistentialism
Canada688 Posts
That said, I'd love to see a 70 energy amulet or a BW style 63/250 ammy. | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
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Arnovic
Netherlands49 Posts
On August 21 2011 00:17 SeaSwift wrote: Even Day9 said he didn't get why Blizzard completely removed Amulet - it should have been 65 energy instead of 75, in my opinion. Then you don't get warp-in storms, but Protoss isn't forced to wait 25energy's worth of time to get Storm. Either that or the whole warp-in mechanic should be removed. Then it would be perfectly balanced... | ||
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XD_Melchior
31 Posts
Sorry guys, I'm a random player whose favorite race is protoss, and I do believe HT energy upgrade is completely different from ghost/inf energy upgrade. I _do_ honestly believe that HTs do have the short end of the stick compared to ghost/infs. This is because they're roughly the same strength as ghost/inf, even though they're higher tier and require the psi storm upgrade. They should be a little stronger than the other two just because of that. But KA is not the way to do it. To me, it's just a "get-out-of-jail" card that just encourages short-sighted play. | ||
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Arnovic
Netherlands49 Posts
On August 21 2011 00:21 XD_Melchior wrote: Then a smart player would realize it's worth the 300 min investment to build an extra two gateways to keep on CD, in case of drops or surprise counter attacks. Sorry guys, I'm a random player whose favorite race is protoss, and I do believe HT energy upgrade is completely different from ghost/inf energy upgrade. I _do_ honestly believe that HTs do have the short end of the stick compared to ghost/infs. This is because they're roughly the same strength as ghost/inf, even though they're higher tier and require the psi storm upgrade. They should be a little stronger than the other two just because of that. But KA is not the way to do it. To me, it's just a "get-out-of-jail" card that just encourages short-sighted play. Ghost and Infestors both have 3 abbilities, HTs have 2. I quite agree with you on that one. | ||
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Jojo131
Brazil1631 Posts
On August 20 2011 23:59 Arnovic wrote: Disagreed, if a player was always warping in when his warpgates where on cooldown he has to get 'lucky' with the cooldown timing or just wait. Infestors have instant fungal when they spawn too, same as ghost. Tbh, I dont think anyone is ever constantly warping in units the moment warpgates come off cooldown to warrant the assumption that someone "has to get lucky or wait", plus you can chronoboost warpgates in that situation. Even so, waiting for warpgate cool down is comparable to waiting for ghosts/infestors to spawn, both races have to wait. The difference is, is that HTs can be warped anywhere while the other two have to walk to wherever they're needed. Imagine if HTs had to walk as well, then by the time they reach wherever they're needed then they might have the energy to storm: all of a sudden they're not that different from infestors and ghosts, then you can justify removing KA was bad since it's un-even. But fact is that HTs dont need to do the same walking that ghosts/infestors do. If you have a pylon placed where you need HTs to be, they dont need to travel. This is why I feel they nerfed KA. Things like planting proxy pylons in people's expansions to instant storm SCVs then turn into archons seemed really imba to me, since I can't really spot it without having every inch of the map revealed. | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On August 21 2011 00:19 Arnovic wrote: Either that or the whole warp-in mechanic should be removed. Then it would be perfectly balanced... Except Blizzard clearly doesn't want to remove a unique race mechanic. This isn't BW, and more importantly Blizzard wants to show the world that this isn't BW. Warp in is a cool idea, and almost all the flaws in it can be fixed with just a little bit of clever thinking. | ||
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