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On August 20 2011 23:59 Arnovic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 23:56 Josealtron wrote:On August 20 2011 23:50 Arnovic wrote:
I've got some questions about the removal of Khaydarin Amulet.
Protoss units are able to be warped in when a gateway is transformed into a warpgate. It's how the game works. After that warp-in the warpgate has a cooldown (So essentially they have to wait the same ammount of time for a new unit). With Zerg and Terran units firsthave to be 'built', 'trained' or 'created'. After a period of time they are ready to fight in battle. This all sounds reasonable, right?
If you research the Pathogen Glands upgrade for infestors as Zerg, they recieve extra mana / energy when they spawn in or 'are ready for battle'. Same with Terran, when the Moebius Reactor is researched ghost spawn with more energy.
Now I ask, based on the game's mechanics, why in the hell is the Khaydarin Amulet upgrade removed from the game?
Edit: Typos Because the Protoss warp in mechanic would basically mean that you can have instant storms pretty much anywhere, as long as you had gas, and storm would come out much faster, and the templar additionally have the ability to turn into archons. So you could just warp in 4 templar at the battle, storm 4 times, and have 2 archons instantly. It was rather broken Disagreed, if a player was always warping in when his warpgates where on cooldown he has to get 'lucky' with the cooldown timing or just wait. Infestors have instant fungal when they spawn too, same as ghost.
Yes, but Terran and Zerg units don't spawn just anywhere on the map. They spawn at production buildings. HTs spawn wherever there's a power field.
There's also another benefit from warpgates. When you have a clash of 200/200 armies, as soon as one unit dies, you can warp in HT with storm to replace them from the nearest pylon/warp prism. Terran and Zerg units still have to be built and then travel to the site of battle. In some respects, you can look at warpgate tech itself as an energy upgrade.
In any case, none of that proves that khaydarin amulet was imbalanced.
Personally, I think it made Protoss lategame that much stronger and was a bit too much.
I believe Protoss is having problems nowadays a bit earlier than that (not convinced about imbalances there, yet). If they actually get to lategame in decent shape, they're fine as is, I'd say.
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On August 20 2011 23:50 Arnovic wrote:
If you research the Pathogen Glands upgrade for infestors as Zerg, they recieve extra mana / energy when they spawn in or 'are ready for battle'. Same with Terran, when the Moebius Reactor is researched ghost spawn with more energy.
Now I ask, based on the game's mechanics, why in the hell is the Khaydarin Amulet upgrade removed from the game?
High templars need 5s to warp, infestors need 50s to morph.
In 45s, the high templar regenerate slighly more than 25 mp.
So it makes perfect sense to have things exactly like they are now, both get the spell ready roughly 50s after spending the ressource & supply.
Well, actually templar have the advantage to be able to morph into archons and make a good use of the spent money in case of emergency. Plus, templars don't need an upgrade.
Ghosts only take 40s to build, so based on this reasonning they should start with 70 energy.
But, I don't think taht comparing the starting energy of casters make sense to begin with.
You argument is completely flawed.
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On August 20 2011 17:09 PPTouch wrote:
problem with phoenix only using 25 to lift up light owuld be the only counter zerg would have to phoenix would be infestor, seeing as phoenix would rape hydras even harder than they already do
and i guess corruptors but if you make corruptors to counter phoenix youre doing it wrong i m o
some spore crawlers deny harrass, and corruptors are really an exelent counter to mass phoenix, hydras would still be good, cuz the hydras x phoenix almost always end before the phoenix run out of energy. energy is not that big of a deal against hydras, it is just the numbers that really matter.
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On August 21 2011 00:25 Arnovic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 00:21 XD_Melchior wrote:
Then a smart player would realize it's worth the 300 min investment to build an extra two gateways to keep on CD, in case of drops or surprise counter attacks.
Sorry guys, I'm a random player whose favorite race is protoss, and I do believe HT energy upgrade is completely different from ghost/inf energy upgrade. I _do_ honestly believe that HTs do have the short end of the stick compared to ghost/infs. This is because they're roughly the same strength as ghost/inf, even though they're higher tier and require the psi storm upgrade. They should be a little stronger than the other two just because of that. But KA is not the way to do it. To me, it's just a "get-out-of-jail" card that just encourages short-sighted play. Ghost and Infestors both have 3 abbilities, HTs have 2. I quite agree with you on that one.
I didn't realize Ghost and Infestors could change into different units. Not only are you wrong about the number of abilities but then you will use purely the amount of abilities to determine balance? How about actually looking at what those abilities do.
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On August 21 2011 00:39 fraktoasters wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 00:25 Arnovic wrote:On August 21 2011 00:21 XD_Melchior wrote:
Then a smart player would realize it's worth the 300 min investment to build an extra two gateways to keep on CD, in case of drops or surprise counter attacks.
Sorry guys, I'm a random player whose favorite race is protoss, and I do believe HT energy upgrade is completely different from ghost/inf energy upgrade. I _do_ honestly believe that HTs do have the short end of the stick compared to ghost/infs. This is because they're roughly the same strength as ghost/inf, even though they're higher tier and require the psi storm upgrade. They should be a little stronger than the other two just because of that. But KA is not the way to do it. To me, it's just a "get-out-of-jail" card that just encourages short-sighted play. Ghost and Infestors both have 3 abbilities, HTs have 2. I quite agree with you on that one. I didn't realize Ghost and Infestors could change into different units. Not only are you wrong about the number of abilities but then you will use purely the amount of abilities to determine balance? How about actually looking at what those abilities do.
Because when you do, you find out that their abilities are much better than templar as well. Storm does about as much dmg as fungal on average and less than EMP, which makes it so you'll rarely get off a storm vs a good player anyway.
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On August 21 2011 00:39 fraktoasters wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 00:25 Arnovic wrote:On August 21 2011 00:21 XD_Melchior wrote:
Then a smart player would realize it's worth the 300 min investment to build an extra two gateways to keep on CD, in case of drops or surprise counter attacks.
Sorry guys, I'm a random player whose favorite race is protoss, and I do believe HT energy upgrade is completely different from ghost/inf energy upgrade. I _do_ honestly believe that HTs do have the short end of the stick compared to ghost/infs. This is because they're roughly the same strength as ghost/inf, even though they're higher tier and require the psi storm upgrade. They should be a little stronger than the other two just because of that. But KA is not the way to do it. To me, it's just a "get-out-of-jail" card that just encourages short-sighted play. Ghost and Infestors both have 3 abbilities, HTs have 2. I quite agree with you on that one. I didn't realize Ghost and Infestors could change into different units. Not only are you wrong about the number of abilities but then you will use purely the amount of abilities to determine balance? How about actually looking at what those abilities do.
Ghost: EMP, Snipe, Cloak.
Infestor: Fungal, Neural parasite, Infested terrans.
Just to point it out.
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Feedback should have same range as EMP
I dont understand why this was not implemented at the first place.
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On August 21 2011 00:49 Lordwar wrote:
Feedback should have same range as EMP
I dont understand why this was not implemented at the first place.
Agreed, actually.
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On August 21 2011 00:32 Elean wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 23:50 Arnovic wrote:
If you research the Pathogen Glands upgrade for infestors as Zerg, they recieve extra mana / energy when they spawn in or 'are ready for battle'. Same with Terran, when the Moebius Reactor is researched ghost spawn with more energy.
Now I ask, based on the game's mechanics, why in the hell is the Khaydarin Amulet upgrade removed from the game?
High templars need 5s to warp, infestors need 50s to morph. In 45s, the high templar regenerate slighly more than 25 mp. So it makes perfect sense to have things exactly like they are now, both get the spell ready roughly 50s after spending the ressource & supply. Well, actually templar have the advantage to be able to morph into archons and make a good use of the spent money in case of emergency. Plus, templars don't need an upgrade. Ghosts only take 40s to build, so based on this reasonning they should start with 70 energy. But, I don't think taht comparing the starting energy of casters make sense to begin with. You argument is completely flawed.
yeah, templars don't need an upgrade.... yeah, templars run the same speed as ghost and infestors... yeah, templars can cloak or burrow like ghosts and infestors.... yeah, emp and fungal growth can kill your own fucking units.... yeah, cuz killing 2 HT and getting an archon after 12 seconds into the battle is that amazing...., yeah, storm have the same AoE area that emp and fungal have...
they clearly have the edge
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On August 21 2011 00:32 Elean wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 23:50 Arnovic wrote:
If you research the Pathogen Glands upgrade for infestors as Zerg, they recieve extra mana / energy when they spawn in or 'are ready for battle'. Same with Terran, when the Moebius Reactor is researched ghost spawn with more energy.
Now I ask, based on the game's mechanics, why in the hell is the Khaydarin Amulet upgrade removed from the game?
High templars need 5s to warp, infestors need 50s to morph. In 45s, the high templar regenerate slighly more than 25 mp. So it makes perfect sense to have things exactly like they are now, both get the spell ready roughly 50s after spending the ressource & supply. Well, actually templar have the advantage to be able to morph into archons and make a good use of the spent money in case of emergency. Plus, templars don't need an upgrade. Ghosts only take 40s to build, so based on this reasonning they should start with 70 energy. But, I don't think taht comparing the starting energy of casters make sense to begin with. You argument is completely flawed.
Please read my post again will you.
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On August 16 2011 07:18 Fig wrote:
Yeah I have wondered about this for a long time myself. It seems like all the micro is in the terran's hands during the late game. Which admittedly makes it hard for the terran player, but it is nice to know that they do have the tools to win even engagements if they have strong enough micro. I wish there was more micro potential for toss to even it out.
One big example of this is the ghost design.
EMP = 10 range
Snipe = 10 range
Now we look at the HT
Storm = 9 range
Feedback = 9 range
This shows that if both players have the same skills, the terran player will get off an EMP before a storm can occur. But this puts a lot of pressure on the terran to land them. If instead each spell had 9 range, then the toss would be required to micro just as much, making the engagement much more interesting and fair for all levels.
wait a sec. ppl are complaining, that terrans at low master cant step up the micro they need to do and you consider debuffing the ghostrange as a response? that will make everything worse lol.
also: if a ghosts snipes a templar and a templar feedbacks ghost, the templar wins! thats a fact. and even if the ghost gets one snipe of, the templer isnt dead and has all its energie, while the feedbacked ghost has no more energie. so terrans are forced to waste their empfs on the templar in order tp make it work.
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I think Thors should be 8+4 instead of 6+6 to make them better against huge Viking clumps in TvT, make BC transitions easier
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I think removing the Amulet was a terrible decision.
Im not talking about balance here, Im not here discuss if HT were too strong or whatever.
I simply think it's a bad decision gameplay wise.
It's incredible stupid that you can warp in a unit that practically does NOTHING for like 40seconds.
you cant use them to reinforce your army in a reactive way.
It's painful to see and to play, you lose an engagement and suddenly you cant even produce them anymore, if the enemy is attacking you or pressuring you, you dont have a choice but to reinforce with zealots/stalker, since warping in 5 shitty units that help to defend are better than 5 units dont do anything or need an additional 12 seconds of vulnerable morphing.
meanwhile you can see zerg or terran players scare off an enemy from an engagement simply because a infestor/ghost popped out and threaten you with a possibly deadly fungal/emp if you're not extremely careful.
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I think the game would be much better if blue flames and banelings didn't do damage to workers. Sound arbitrary? Spider mines in BW weren't triggered by workers either because Blizzard recognized how ridiculous that would be.
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On August 21 2011 01:01 harhar! wrote:
wait a sec. ppl are complaining, that terrans at low master cant step up the micro they need to do and you consider debuffing the ghostrange as a response? that will make everything worse lol.
also: if a ghosts snipes a templar and a templar feedbacks ghost, the templar wins! thats a fact. and even if the ghost gets one snipe of, the templer isnt dead and has all its energie, while the feedbacked ghost has no more energie. so terrans are forced to waste their empfs on the templar in order tp make it work.
On the other hand, if a Ghost EMPs a Templar before it can Feedback it, which is to be expected considering the increased range and maneouvrability of the Ghost, the Templar can do literally nothing to the Ghost.
The only times I've ever seen a Templar beat a Ghost has been when Terran has made a micro mistake, whereas I've seen Ghosts EMP Templars when the Protoss player could have done nothing about it.
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On August 20 2011 05:01 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 04:40 TheDraken wrote:On August 19 2011 15:53 Kingqway wrote:
What I believe is fucking up the match-up is the infested terran from the infestor, not the fungal growth. I believe fungal growth is an immensely powerful, but immensely needed tool for zerg. However, the infested terrans damage output for a 25 energy unit, is absolutely insane. I mean, it does slightly less than the marine unstimmed, but the fact that it has higher direct damage, makes it a much more viable unit for sniping structures. When you're going for ranged upgrades, this makes the ranged attack even stronger, making it snipe bases at a really fast rate. I don't believe casters should have the ability to destroy buildings the way infestors with infested terrans do. For comparison's sake, the raven's auto turret costs 50 energy, takes 4 blocks (so it needs open space to be casted), for the same damage. Of course, I'm not comparing the auto turret to try and say the auto turret should do more, but I'm trying to say the infested terran should do similar damage. Unlike the auto turret, the infested terran is an infantry/bio unit so it can deal way more damage in groups, since you can have much more firing at the same targets. Their slow-move ability also allows them to spread their damage once their target is destroyed. While you won't generally see this at the top level of plays, a few infestors dropped in the back of a base can do a serious amount of damage with the proper amount of energy. Not with fungal growth, but with shift-casting infested terrans so that you can have each infestor throw down all their energy's worth of infested terrans instantly, destroying structures before reinforcements can arrive. Unlike drop-based attacks from other races, infestors take only 6 supply, so the zerg army can be positioned elsewhere, while a main-army level threat is being posed in wherever the infestors were dropped. Protoss currently has a counter to this with Psionic storms, but terrans do not, other than "dont let them in, in the first place". Of course I guess a proper counter to that would be to seriously "not let them in" since a current problem may be that terrans need to improve upon proper detection mechanics, but I seriously think the infested terran does too much damage.
You say the infested terran does too much damage for just 25 energy? I think some theorycraft math would suggest otherwise. Both the infestor and the orbital regain energy at 0.5625 energy/second. This means an infestor can spawn a "free" IT every 44 seconds. An orbital can call down a mule every 89 seconds, which yields ~275 minerals, or 5 and 1/2 marines. This means an orbital can spawn a "free" marine every 17 seconds. So one orbital can make marines about 2 and 1/2 times faster. While an orbital costs 450 minerals and an infestor is only 100/150, I feel like that's a fair price comparison for the rate at which they can make marines. While 8 infestors dropping ITs in your base is frustrating, nothing stops you from investing in extra orbitals to have the same midgame capability. You do have to make an investment in medivacs to base snipe, but the big gas cost of infestors kind of balances that out. You get to keep your "free" marines if they survive. We don't. You can stim yours for better cost efficiency. Our marines can barely move. The only advantage I can concede for the IT is that it doesn't cost supply, giving Zerg the possibility of making an army past the 200/200 cap. But I think the problem is base sniping, not 250 supply IT deathballs. You may argue that the infestor allows you to make free marines even after resources have been exhausted (obviously not the case for orbitals), but again I don't think late game no-money IT base sniping is the predominant issue. I think overall the IT ability is fair, but the timing attack zergs have discovered brings up the issue of whether infestors should have the energy upgrade. As a Zerg player myself, I feel energy upgraded infestors can be a bit too convenient at times in defending, but then again I don't think they have the same potency as insta-storms. If anything should be nerfed, I think the first thing should be the energy upgrade, which would stop the timing attack. Leave it to a Zerg to try and bash the MULE at any chance they can possibly get, lawl (s+ddddddddddddddddddd). Your theorycrafting about the IT versus the Calldown MULE is ultra-fail, sorry. Being able to Summon +2 Attack Marines while invisible is pretty nice, but I don't think it's a huge problem. It gets exponentially worse with mass-infestor play, where the potential for like an additional 50-75+ (+2) marines can hit the field out of nowhere. But, I think this is somewhat leveled out by the fact that the mass-infestor takes up supply and does not have a non-energy attack. So, an infestor with Max Energy (happens all the time) can spawn 8 supply, while consuming 2 itself, but that 8 supply is temporary (30 seconds). IT seems pretty okay to me. I'm not familiar with the IT timing attack. Maybe ITs are a problem and I just don't know it yet. Fungal Growth attacking air is overkill. Remove that and that will go a long way.
I don't understand how you think you can bash someone's input, make an easymode comment, generalize, ultimately agree with my point, and then admit you had no knowledge of what I'm talking about with the timing attack.
Don't even bother replying then. You added absolutely nothing to this thread and only polluted it with negativity.
Not even going to respond to your actual post. That just needed to be said.
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On August 21 2011 01:10 iamke55 wrote:
I think the game would be much better if blue flames and banelings didn't do damage to workers. Sound arbitrary? Spider mines in BW weren't triggered by workers either because Blizzard recognized how ridiculous that would be.
As nice as that sounds, baneling bombs and blue flame hellion attacks are exciting for viewers/casters. Theyre trying to promote a spectator sport so they wont just remove the exciting elements.
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On August 21 2011 01:10 iamke55 wrote:
I think the game would be much better if blue flames and banelings didn't do damage to workers. Sound arbitrary? Spider mines in BW weren't triggered by workers either because Blizzard recognized how ridiculous that would be.
U werent able to place mines between 2 bases to detonate them if there is a transfer going on ? well it sounds reasonable given Protoss being the only race wich has the biggest impact if they get harassed same as in Sc2 i guess .. , its pretty impossible to stop harass while ur mainarmy is in danger and at 2 - 3 points get helions or banes droped
But you have to see the other side of the medal if both units would be unable to do large amounts of damage how to get rid of a worker line that is hold positioned to let your melee units not attack properly .
Tbh still same headline argument , " A discussion wont help aslong flaws arent pointed out and solutions are be able to presented for Blizzard balance team , preferable new utilitys over removing or nerfing certain stuff."
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On August 21 2011 01:01 harhar! wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 07:18 Fig wrote:
Yeah I have wondered about this for a long time myself. It seems like all the micro is in the terran's hands during the late game. Which admittedly makes it hard for the terran player, but it is nice to know that they do have the tools to win even engagements if they have strong enough micro. I wish there was more micro potential for toss to even it out.
One big example of this is the ghost design.
EMP = 10 range
Snipe = 10 range
Now we look at the HT
Storm = 9 range
Feedback = 9 range
This shows that if both players have the same skills, the terran player will get off an EMP before a storm can occur. But this puts a lot of pressure on the terran to land them. If instead each spell had 9 range, then the toss would be required to micro just as much, making the engagement much more interesting and fair for all levels. wait a sec. ppl are complaining, that terrans at low master cant step up the micro they need to do and you consider debuffing the ghostrange as a response? that will make everything worse lol. also: if a ghosts snipes a templar and a templar feedbacks ghost, the templar wins! thats a fact. and even if the ghost gets one snipe of, the templer isnt dead and has all its energie, while the feedbacked ghost has no more energie. so terrans are forced to waste their empfs on the templar in order tp make it work.
Contrary to popular belief, terrans don't "waste" EMPs when they hit a single high templar. Think about it, 75 energy for EMP, which removes 100 energy from the enemy unit. That is beneficial for terran, especially since ghosts are able to start with more energy. If you say that they would rather EMP the whole army, then yes, that is true, but as terran you should have just as many ghosts as the toss has HTs, maybe more since they cost less gas. And you know that no toss can separate their units so much that only one unit gets hit by each EMP, so you get even more of an advantage.
As for your other point, yes 1 snipe from a single ghost will not kill a HT, and two snipes from that single won't happen before a feedback goes off. But multiple ghosts on the other hand...If you have 2 ghosts each use snipe once, they kill the HT before it gets in range. And for only 50 energy total.
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On August 21 2011 00:55 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 00:49 Lordwar wrote:
Feedback should have same range as EMP
I dont understand why this was not implemented at the first place. Agreed, actually.
no, Blizzard is right on this one.
If you feedback a ghost it's probably dead, and even if it's not you're left with a worthless unit.
emp'd ht's can still warp into Archons, which are still very good units.
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EPT
