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On August 21 2011 01:26 icarly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 00:55 SeaSwift wrote:On August 21 2011 00:49 Lordwar wrote:
Feedback should have same range as EMP
I dont understand why this was not implemented at the first place. Agreed, actually. no, Blizzard is right on this one. If you feedback a ghost it's probably dead, and even if it's not you're left with a worthless unit. emp'd ht's can still warp into Archons, which are still very good units.
On the other hand, EMP also affects other units, and EMPed Zealots die astoundingly quickly. Zealot/Immortal/Archon/HT seems to be the money mixture these days for PvT, and Ghosts obliterate all of those with the possible exception of Archons, as they are so big the AoE does very little.
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On August 21 2011 01:13 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 01:01 harhar! wrote:
wait a sec. ppl are complaining, that terrans at low master cant step up the micro they need to do and you consider debuffing the ghostrange as a response? that will make everything worse lol.
also: if a ghosts snipes a templar and a templar feedbacks ghost, the templar wins! thats a fact. and even if the ghost gets one snipe of, the templer isnt dead and has all its energie, while the feedbacked ghost has no more energie. so terrans are forced to waste their empfs on the templar in order tp make it work. On the other hand, if a Ghost EMPs a Templar before it can Feedback it, which is to be expected considering the increased range and maneouvrability of the Ghost, the Templar can do literally nothing to the Ghost. The only times I've ever seen a Templar beat a Ghost has been when Terran has made a micro mistake, whereas I've seen Ghosts EMP Templars when the Protoss player could have done nothing about it.
like i said one emp on one templar is kinda wasted. he can also just morph into archon then.
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On August 21 2011 01:26 icarly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 00:55 SeaSwift wrote:On August 21 2011 00:49 Lordwar wrote:
Feedback should have same range as EMP
I dont understand why this was not implemented at the first place. Agreed, actually. no, Blizzard is right on this one. If you feedback a ghost it's probably dead, and even if it's not you're left with a worthless unit. emp'd ht's can still warp into Archons, which are still very good units.
even if EMP range was lowered to 9, EMP is an AOE spell so you still have an effective range of 11. So good micro will still prevent feedback, it would just make the battle a little more interesting for both sides.
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On August 21 2011 00:55 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 00:49 Lordwar wrote:
Feedback should have same range as EMP
I dont understand why this was not implemented at the first place. Agreed, actually.
feedback should have 1 more range than emp due to the fact that emp is AoE meaning that it can reach roughly 1 space farther unlike feedback which is single target
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On August 21 2011 01:10 beute wrote:
I think removing the Amulet was a terrible decision.
Im not talking about balance here, Im not here discuss if HT were too strong or whatever.
I simply think it's a bad decision gameplay wise.
It's incredible stupid that you can warp in a unit that practically does NOTHING for like 40seconds.
you cant use them to reinforce your army in a reactive way.
It's painful to see and to play, you lose an engagement and suddenly you cant even produce them anymore, if the enemy is attacking you or pressuring you, you dont have a choice but to reinforce with zealots/stalker, since warping in 5 shitty units that help to defend are better than 5 units dont do anything or need an additional 12 seconds of vulnerable morphing.
meanwhile you can see zerg or terran players scare off an enemy from an engagement simply because a infestor/ghost popped out and threaten you with a possibly deadly fungal/emp if you're not extremely careful.
Ur argument is invaild. Zerg can make a unit(infestor) that's in a cacoon and practically does NOTHING for like 50 seconds.
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On August 21 2011 00:49 Lordwar wrote:
Feedback should have same range as EMP
I dont understand why this was not implemented at the first place.
feedback should only damage/drain a maximum of 100
I don't understand why this was not implemented when emp was nerfed
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How about make feedback 10 range and EMP 9 range? Then EMP STILL out ranges feedback if the Terran micro's well, but protoss doesn't just lose because the terran can micro (as it is now where a ghost EMP out ranges feedback by 3 [lolwut]).
I mean if feedback was 15 range and think we'd all agree it's imbalanced, so why do ghosts need to out range by 3? What's the protoss counter to ghost?
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mmmm add the amulet again and change the warpin time to 45 seconds ! problem solved ... i personally like how hts are now, though i think its a bit mean that ghosts need 2 skills and are more expensiv. Feedback 1 use caster gone .. snipe 2-3 . Emp might be spammable now but it if the ht had enough time, 1 emp does nothing and the still can feedback or storm. And unless you have gosu marine micro, 1 storm is enough to mess up your army. So if marines fall out of the line you are left with marauders and maybe hellions (which are hard to position against zealots, but you need something against zealots as they poke marauders even without shields with charge ).
But i guess there still have to be experimented alot. But from my point of view on ht/ghost. Ghosts can't do anything against hts. Emp they still storm ... snipe feedback (ghost dead heh) templar goes archon. But marauders do good work at stopping suicide hts. And if you get sneaky with the ghost cloak you can get the hts and if you went for marines the toss army is screwed heh. But for me the terran is at an disadvantage just because the templar is a bit cheaper then the ghost and because obs have range 10 detectors.
What i would like to see is that tanks would only do their 35 weepy damage on light. and not only extra damage vs armored.(stares over to queens and archons ), Zealots atleast don't swallow the splash of tanks like archons do. But the archon hallus vs the strong tank banshee push works quiet well.
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On August 21 2011 01:30 harhar! wrote:
like i said one emp on one templar is kinda wasted. he can also just morph into archon then.
BUT that's a very superficial way of looking at it.
Most of the time, standard Gateway units (read: Sentry/Stalker/Zealot) cannot fight Barracks units head on and win. This is why people go fast Colossus, why Terran goes for drops etc - to either avoid that scenario or to force it. Protoss needs the Storms to kill the bioball, and perhaps Feedback for Medivacs to a lesser extent.
If there is an engagement ready to take place between a Gateway + HT army and a MMM+Ghost army, Ghosts can EMP the Templars, lets say worst case scenario for Terran: Protoss has spread his Templars out quite well, so the Ghosts only get about a 1:1 ratio of Emps:HT. UNLESS Terran has made a pretty bad micro error (like letting really slow HTs get in range of his fast Ghosts with an effective +3 range) then that is the worst it can go.
Protoss then morphs them all into Archons, maybe losing a couple while they drift towards each other to snipes but that's pretty minor so I'll ignore that.
Assuming Terran still has energy left, the Ghosts then get off at least a couple of EMPs on the rest of the Gateway army.
For 12 seconds, you then end up with an MMM + Ghosts with little energy vs a purely Gateway army with little shields.
This is WORSE than the bad case scenario of Gateway units vs Barracks units - you have more firepower for the Barracks units (Ghosts' DPS is nothing to be sniffed at) and less effective health for the Protoss army.
I don't see any other relevant factors here, so someone please enlighten me, but at this point it doesn't look great for Protoss, so either Protoss needs to purely outplay their opponent or find a different way to play.
On August 21 2011 01:48 Quotidian wrote:
feedback should only damage/drain a maximum of 100
I don't understand why this was not implemented when emp was nerfed
Derp-di-derp, Feedback should have AoE. You could play this stupid game all day. Refer to what I wrote above for why it isn't that simple.
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On August 21 2011 01:25 Fig wrote:
Contrary to popular belief, terrans don't "waste" EMPs when they hit a single high templar. Think about it, 75 energy for EMP, which removes 100 energy from the enemy unit. That is beneficial for terran, especially since ghosts are able to start with more energy. If you say that they would rather EMP the whole army, then yes, that is true, but as terran you should have just as many ghosts as the toss has HTs, maybe more since they cost less gas. And you know that no toss can separate their units so much that only one unit gets hit by each EMP, so you get even more of an advantage.
As for your other point, yes 1 snipe from a single ghost will not kill a HT, and two snipes from that single won't happen before a feedback goes off. But multiple ghosts on the other hand...If you have 2 ghosts each use snipe once, they kill the HT before it gets in range. And for only 50 energy total.
to be even with the toss in a normal battle you just have to use emp on the army, thats why im calling it wasted. i'd still obviously use is, cause i dont want a ht killing all my ghosts.
i think feedback gets even faster off then the first snipe.
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people seem to forget that emp is a projectile while feedback is instant... that more than makes up the really, really minor range difference in most cases. Most protoss players who complain about emp now will still complain and lose to emp if the ranges of the spells were changed. What emp vs feedback/ghost vs ht really comes down to is battlefield awareness (or lack there of), not range.
On August 21 2011 01:53 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 01:48 Quotidian wrote:
feedback should only damage/drain a maximum of 100
I don't understand why this was not implemented when emp was nerfed Derp-di-derp, Feedback should have AoE. You could play this stupid game all day. Refer to what I wrote above for why it isn't that simple.
hey, you're the one that derped first. It really IS that simple. Feedback isn't supposed to be equal to emp and the same goes for the reverse. But I guarantee you, most terran players find feedback just as unforgiving and aggravating as protos does emp.
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people seem to forget that emp is a projectile while feedback is instant... that more than makes up the really, really minor range difference in most cases. Most protoss players who complain about emp now will still complain and lose to emp if the ranges of the spells were changed. What emp vs feedback/ghost vs ht really comes down to is battlefield awareness (or lack there of), not range.
That's why snipe is fine and a 8 or 8.5 range EMP (or 10 range feedback, 11 range snipe and 9/9.5 range EMP to avoid ghosts getting killed by stalker/collo when trying to blanket EMP) would be fine. That extra 1/1.5 range makes up for the projectile vs. instant of EMP/feedback.
EDIT: to be clear there's no reason Terran needs an extra THREE range + speed advantage to make up for that; that's just guaranteeing the protoss loses the feedback vs. EMP battle
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On August 21 2011 01:57 Quotidian wrote:
people seem to forget that emp is a projectile while feedback is instant... that more than makes up the really, really minor range difference in most cases. Most protoss players who complain about emp now will still complain and lose to emp if the ranges of the spells were changed. What emp vs feedback/ghost vs ht really comes down to is battlefield awareness (or lack there of), not range.
Where is the evidence for EMP being a projectile? I keep hearing people say this, but just because it was a projectile in BW that you could dodge doesn't mean it is the same in SC2. I have NEVER seen a protoss dodge an EMP after it has been cast.
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Screw the range. What I want to know, is why HTs are the squishiest of the casters, the least mobile (Battlecruiser speed, in fact), the most expensive to tech to in both time and resources, and they need to research their primary spell, while not being strictly superior to Ghosts and Infestors when deployed on the field.
KA was removed in the name of equivalence of casters? Fine, buff HT speed to 2.25, make them have Storm by default, and knock Templar Archive cost down to 100/50.
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On iPad-
High Templars can morph into archons,whereas other spell casters are useless for a few minutes. That is just a point, but even I thin HTs are underpowered too.
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On August 21 2011 02:02 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 01:57 Quotidian wrote:
people seem to forget that emp is a projectile while feedback is instant... that more than makes up the really, really minor range difference in most cases. Most protoss players who complain about emp now will still complain and lose to emp if the ranges of the spells were changed. What emp vs feedback/ghost vs ht really comes down to is battlefield awareness (or lack there of), not range. Where is the evidence for EMP being a projectile? I keep hearing people say this, but just because it was a projectile in BW that you could dodge doesn't mean it is the same in SC2. I have NEVER seen a protoss dodge an EMP after it has been cast.
Is that a serious question? Just make a ghost in a custom game and fire an emp to somewhere on the map. The projectile is pretty fucking evident
just because something is a projectile doesn't mean it should be easily dodged. EMP has travel time, feedback does not. What it usually results in is that the terran misses an EMP more than protoss actively dodging it. I've missed EMPs and fungals plenty of times, but if the templar is within range, feedback will hit no matter what. Also, the fact that EMP is a missilie, while feedback is instant means that feedback will often get off before EMP does - there are plenty of games where MC, for instance, has shown this to be true. Or they'll go off at the same time..
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On August 21 2011 01:57 Quotidian wrote:
people seem to forget that emp is a projectile while feedback is instant... that more than makes up the really, really minor range difference in most cases. Most protoss players who complain about emp now will still complain and lose to emp if the ranges of the spells were changed. What emp vs feedback/ghost vs ht really comes down to is battlefield awareness (or lack there of), not range.
I don't bring this up very often, but has anyone(mod) gone to the EU Battle.net forums to see some of the trolling this guy does, pretending to be balance whining? This is an ad hominem attack, but I don't want to waste my time responding to a troll.
I'll say it simply: an effective 3 range difference (due to the radius of EMP) is in no way equal to projectile. The projectile speed is almost instantaneous.
On August 21 2011 01:48 Quotidian wrote:
hey, you're the one that derped first. It really IS that simple. Feedback isn't supposed to be equal to emp and the same goes for the reverse. But I guarantee you, most terran players find feedback just as unforgiving and aggravating as protos does emp.
Ignoring this, as you make assertions (MOST terran players) that you have no source for, and I never claimed Feedback is supposed to be identical to EMP, just balanced compared to it.
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On August 21 2011 02:19 Quotidian wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2011 02:02 Fig wrote:On August 21 2011 01:57 Quotidian wrote:
people seem to forget that emp is a projectile while feedback is instant... that more than makes up the really, really minor range difference in most cases. Most protoss players who complain about emp now will still complain and lose to emp if the ranges of the spells were changed. What emp vs feedback/ghost vs ht really comes down to is battlefield awareness (or lack there of), not range. Where is the evidence for EMP being a projectile? I keep hearing people say this, but just because it was a projectile in BW that you could dodge doesn't mean it is the same in SC2. I have NEVER seen a protoss dodge an EMP after it has been cast. Is that a serious question? Just make a ghost in a custom game and fire an emp to somewhere on the map. The projectile is pretty fucking evident just because something is a projectile doesn't mean it should be easily dodged. EMP has travel time, feedback does not. What it usually results in is that the terran misses an EMP more than protoss actively dodging it. I've missed EMPs and fungals plenty of times, but if the templar is within range, feedback will hit no matter what. Also, the fact that EMP is a missilie, while feedback is instant means that feedback will often get off before EMP does - there are plenty of games where MC, for instance, has shown this to be true. Or they'll go off at the same time..
So just because YOU miss with EMP and fungal, they are both projectiles? They have changed fungal back and forth from being a projectile, but it is certainly not one at the moment. So if you are saying those two are the same, then it is obvious neither is a projectile.
And you use MC as your example of feedbacks getting off........ MC, the best protoss in the world. He is a better player than the people he is feedbacking, so that does not prove your point either.
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I didn't say fungal is a projectile (it should be, but never mind) .. I knew it was a mistake to mention fungal, but it was just an offhand comment. Fungal can easily miss because it has to be cast on the map - it doesn't use a target unit like feedback. EMP is a projectile though.. it'll take you 2 minutes to try it out in a unit tester for yourself if you don't believe me. But it's the fact that EMP has travel time that balances it agains the instant hit of feedback's lower range, not that EMP can or should be easily dodged.
The fact that MC gets off feedback vs EMP (against players like Thorzain) proves that it's more a skill thing than a balance thing.
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Somewhat more on topic:
I believe that the immortal should be an actual contender for robo time even after the robotics bay is out. The colossus is a boring unit that owns up nearly everything on the ground (ultras and maybe thors being an exception) as shown by the fact that every race tries to counter colossi with air instead of other ground units. So buffing the immortal and nerfing the colossi would hopefully lead to a more flexible playstyle.
The immortal should get an upgrade in the robotics support bay. This upgrade changes his range and attack cooldown. Currently the immortal fires at range 5 every 1.45sec. With the upgrade, he can fire up to range 7. At that range, his attack CD is doubled. If he fires at range 3 or lower, his attack CD is lowered to 0.8. So essentially it allows the immortal to trade range for DPS and vice versa and the CD is calculated after each attack depending on the distance of the target hit.
With this ability, the immortal would be viable within the main army firing either over the stalkers in front of them and even at max range they would pack very nice burst damage, once you get 4+ of them. Also dropping them from a warp prism, you could pick of buildings quickly. Two immortals dropped next to a pylon take it down within 3 seconds.
WIth that, you could nerf the colossus. I would personally nerf the range to 8 and/or the movespeed to 2 and/or dmg to half dmg to armored.
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EPT
