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lullaby
27 Posts
BUT who is losing games due to balance and not because of some low-level-personally-made-mistakes. You better keep on fixing your mistakes instead of writing in a thread about a buff/nerf that has changed the metagame whilst in fact you can't change it. You have to learn to adapt ^^ | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On June 17 2012 23:58 lullaby wrote: In fact it is nice that you guys are arguing that much about different buffs and don't get me wrong most of you are actually having a point BUT who is losing games due to balance and not because of some low-level-personally-made-mistakes. You better keep on fixing your mistakes instead of writing in a thread about a buff/nerf that has changed the metagame whilst in fact you can't change it. You have to learn to adapt ^^ Most of us aren't talking about us bro. We're talking about GSL Terrans not being able to win a TvZ to save their life. | ||
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b0mBerMan
Japan271 Posts
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9-BiT
United States1089 Posts
solution: neutral supply depots at main ramp in ladder maps side effects: none | ||
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
"Why are you trying to use the statistics of top Korean professionals to excuse your own issues in the vs Zerg matchup?" The reason for this question is simple. According to the source you all are trying to use as some sort of proof as your vs Zerg issues, the international winrates are still even. Only the Korean winrate showed any sort of a balance skew and the timing of this statistic being taken is not even being noticed. The update happened right in the middle of the month and thus the stat. So already, the one thing that you guys are touting around as the ultimate proof that "Z is op" "T/P need buffs" is already shown to be a bad example. This is all circumventing the main issue that you are all foreigner ladderers whether you like thinking of yourselves as that or not. You are not top Korean Code S pros and thusly you are NOT included at all in any way in that Korean statistic that showed the skew in TvZ. You can't claim your playstyle is up the par of MKP or the likes of him and you certainly can't claim that the Zergs you are facing are on par with the Code S Zergs either. Before anyone claims "Oh well my MMR puts me against pros sometimes", well then get the top Koreans to start whining like all of you are and maybe we'll be more interested in listening. Otherwise, this is all just speculation from lower level ladder people who aren't even pro trying to use a pro stat that only took top Korean levels of skill into consideration. Do you realize how ridiculous and sad that makes your arguments look? You simply do not face the same levels of skill nor do you possess them so until the entire teams or Prime SlayerS etc come forward with these sorts of "whaaa balance whaaa my race whaaa buffs please", I just don't see the point in all this senseless excuse-making. As for Protoss? Your situation isn't that skewed on the international level either. That same Korean stat shows that T or P have always been #1 in winrates while Z has been forced into #2 or more commonly the #3 spots. Before anyone tries to bring up the current GSTL winrates, that league is not even finished, do not try to use it as any sort of proof until it is. If this month turns up with ridiculous Zerg winrates too, I'll retract my statements that the whining at the pro level is inexcusable but the whining at our level, the "common gamer" level is still ridiculous and its making the game a lot less appealing. I'm running into countless T and P at the freaking top diamond/low-to-mid masters level on the NA server who literally BM me in the middle of games when they realize they're losing or who message me a thousand times after the game telling me my race is "easy" and "overpowered" and "zerg is instant-masters level" so that is why I was able to win. Not that I spend 6+ hours a day gaming. Not that I spend 2+ hours on top of the 6+ trying to watch VODs and learn from things like Belial's guides and memorizing builds. This attitude is beyond annoying and needs to be dealt with. Zerg have always been the underdogs until literally 3.5 weeks ago. We've been constantly having to adapt to Terran and Protoss builds changing because we're the reactionary race that has to react properly or we flat-out die. Perhaps its time you guys learned to change and react instead of trying to excuse your non-pro macro, non-pro decision making and non-pro mistakes. Lastly, I dare anyone to seriously go up to DongRaeGue and tell him he shouldn't feel good at all about winning MLG because "he plays the easy race" and "it was stacked against both his T and P opponents in racial balance" or that he didn't deserve it. Because that is literally the attitude you people who side with this whining are portraying. /rant off | ||
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
The only reason I haven't spent more time dispelling Terran whine is it is incredible to see Terran tears for a change instead of Zerg/Protoss. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On June 18 2012 00:37 Probe1 wrote: Thanks sCCrooked. I agree with you but you could have just cut it short at "The reason for this question is simple. According to the source you all are trying to use as some sort of proof as your vs Zerg issues, the international winrates are still even. Only the Korean winrate showed any sort of a balance skew and the timing of this statistic being taken is not even being noticed. The update happened right in the middle of the month and thus the stat." The only reason I haven't spent more time dispelling Terran whine is it is incredible to see Terran tears for a change instead of Zerg/Protoss. I don't play Terran, and even I can see that there's something wrong when Zerg can coat the map in Creep by 10 minutes all the while taking an early third with essentially no vulnerability to standard Terran play. I don't need statistics to know this. It's just bad for the matchup when one side basically gets free reign, barring some sort of Terran all-in or metagame push like Polt did against Stephano. | ||
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ETisME
12276 Posts
On June 17 2012 23:32 ZenithM wrote: No, the reason Zerg can get a third this early is because of the quick SECOND CC, not the quick third CC :D It's not that hard to understand, it's exactly the same in ZvP. P/T makes his 2nd at the same time you make your 2nd as Zerg, you make your 3rd as a response. I'm not saying it's bad, but as Terran you kind of need your own third early too. There is a reason Koreans only do fast 3rd CC nowadays. Or can you give me some examples of effective Terran 2 base timings? And when I say fast 3rd, it's not gasless 3rd either, it may be hellions then third, one banshee then third, something like that, but definitely not "add a complete 2 base production then third", which is completely ineffective currently. As for droning freely, obviously you have to make queens to defend the hellions and banshees (because as it turns out, queens defend both), it's the so called 6 queens build which defends kinda everything, while pushing creep unbelievably quickly. But queens don't come from larvae so you can still SDDDDDDD to your heart's content. You don't have to make larvae units to defend hellions/banshee/raven. That is quite map dependent though, a third is spreading defense extremely thin and there are mobile hyper aggression builds like marauder mass hellion 2 base push could kill off the third really quite easily. 6 queens are good against those quick 3rd CC harassment builds for sure like you said. I do often see revival poking or sacing overlords to check what is the terran going after the quick 2nd CC and reactor hellion before getting the 3rd/macro hatch down. | ||
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Account252508
3454 Posts
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
Ret basicly opened 6 queens fast third bases, make nothing but 2 lings, drones up to 70 drones. Seelect did a heavy agression build, 2 factory blue flame hellions, killed 15+ drones, Ret was basicly making more drones during the time, letting the queens kill everything. After the attack, the creep ( cross map antiga ) was at the entrance of SeleCt base. SeleCt was unable to take his fourth, even after 3 scans he could not kill all the tumors. :< Not saying it's a balance problem, but damn Queens are strong as hell. And since they don't cost larvaes, it change everything in the way Zerg is meant to be played ( choose between units and drones ) | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On June 18 2012 00:55 monkybone wrote: Not a good comparison, the Zerg can always make a macro hatchery anyway. The problem isn't the production, it's the fact that they can defend their early third without difficulty. Yes, that's a problem, but the other problem is to do with the fact that you can't out-greed a Zerg. That's precisely why them getting an early third is so catastrophic. | ||
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tronix
United States95 Posts
On June 18 2012 00:32 sCCrooked wrote: So now its 2 threads being filled with this useless whining against Z? I still have one question that has not been answered in the least and is in fact the single most important thing anyone should be focusing on. "Why are you trying to use the statistics of top Korean professionals to excuse your own issues in the vs Zerg matchup?" The reason for this question is simple. According to the source you all are trying to use as some sort of proof as your vs Zerg issues, the international winrates are still even. Only the Korean winrate showed any sort of a balance skew and the timing of this statistic being taken is not even being noticed. The update happened right in the middle of the month and thus the stat. So already, the one thing that you guys are touting around as the ultimate proof that "Z is op" "T/P need buffs" is already shown to be a bad example. This is all circumventing the main issue that you are all foreigner ladderers whether you like thinking of yourselves as that or not. You are not top Korean Code S pros and thusly you are NOT included at all in any way in that Korean statistic that showed the skew in TvZ. You can't claim your playstyle is up the par of MKP or the likes of him and you certainly can't claim that the Zergs you are facing are on par with the Code S Zergs either. Before anyone claims "Oh well my MMR puts me against pros sometimes", well then get the top Koreans to start whining like all of you are and maybe we'll be more interested in listening. Otherwise, this is all just speculation from lower level ladder people who aren't even pro trying to use a pro stat that only took top Korean levels of skill into consideration. Do you realize how ridiculous and sad that makes your arguments look? You simply do not face the same levels of skill nor do you possess them so until the entire teams or Prime SlayerS etc come forward with these sorts of "whaaa balance whaaa my race whaaa buffs please", I just don't see the point in all this senseless excuse-making. As for Protoss? Your situation isn't that skewed on the international level either. That same Korean stat shows that T or P have always been #1 in winrates while Z has been forced into #2 or more commonly the #3 spots. Before anyone tries to bring up the current GSTL winrates, that league is not even finished, do not try to use it as any sort of proof until it is. If this month turns up with ridiculous Zerg winrates too, I'll retract my statements that the whining at the pro level is inexcusable but the whining at our level, the "common gamer" level is still ridiculous and its making the game a lot less appealing. I'm running into countless T and P at the freaking top diamond/low-to-mid masters level on the NA server who literally BM me in the middle of games when they realize they're losing or who message me a thousand times after the game telling me my race is "easy" and "overpowered" and "zerg is instant-masters level" so that is why I was able to win. Not that I spend 6+ hours a day gaming. Not that I spend 2+ hours on top of the 6+ trying to watch VODs and learn from things like Belial's guides and memorizing builds. This attitude is beyond annoying and needs to be dealt with. Zerg have always been the underdogs until literally 3.5 weeks ago. We've been constantly having to adapt to Terran and Protoss builds changing because we're the reactionary race that has to react properly or we flat-out die. Perhaps its time you guys learned to change and react instead of trying to excuse your non-pro macro, non-pro decision making and non-pro mistakes. Lastly, I dare anyone to seriously go up to DongRaeGue and tell him he shouldn't feel good at all about winning MLG because "he plays the easy race" and "it was stacked against both his T and P opponents in racial balance" or that he didn't deserve it. Because that is literally the attitude you people who side with this whining are portraying. /rant off Quite the verbose ad hominem. Don't attack the skill of the players saying these things and focus on the argument. By what you are saying; no one should be saying anything about balance ever, not even you. Balance is relative to the player. For example: there is a platinum player who happens to excel at tvz. He wins maybe 65% of the time. The new Z changes come along and he now feels he wins 50% of the time. There is still a perceived shift in balance. This is not really a detailed example, but it gets my point across. Everyone, even pro players, can improve their play and matchups by simply improving mechanics. However, this does not change the fact that there may be in-game mechanics that offset their own. Anywho; I just like to play devil's advocate and rebuking your form of argument. I personally don't think the change was that big. However, it did make one of tvz's most popular openings less effective by a large margin, which I think can account for the skewed winrates. That example I gave was about myself. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On June 18 2012 00:48 ETisME wrote: That is quite map dependent though, a third is spreading defense extremely thin and there are mobile hyper aggression builds like marauder mass hellion 2 base push could kill off the third really quite easily. 6 queens are good against those quick 3rd CC harassment builds for sure like you said. I do often see revival poking or sacing overlords to check what is the terran going after the quick 2nd CC and reactor hellion before getting the 3rd/macro hatch down. I agree overall, but if an early 3rd is a bet, it still seems like a pretty damn safe one currently. The Terran who would go 2 base all in would take more risks than a Zerg with a blind early third (where blind = you saw that he went fast expand, so not completely blind :D) This is very different from before when Terran was going reactor hellion before expand and Zerg literally couldn't bring his drone to the third base unless he had roaches or like thirty lings, so it was 2 base vs 2 base for a while at least. On June 18 2012 00:55 Noocta wrote: [...] And since they don't cost larvaes, it change everything in the way Zerg is meant to be played ( choose between units and drones ) That's exactly what I'm saying. Regardless of balance concerns, there is just no "tough choice" anymore for Zerg. Maek drones, maek queens, defend the little harass Terran can muster up early game, spread your creep like crazy, this is as good of a game plan as any, but it doesn't involve "reading your opponent strategy", "reacting", or whatever was said to be the challenge for Zerg back then. | ||
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On June 18 2012 01:32 sCCrooked wrote: The argument was in no way fallacious, as the argument was against the players using the TLPD and GSTL winrate charts as proof of some imbalances in the vs Z matchup for T. P apparenly just felt left out or something and started complaining about us using fast expansion in response to their fast expansion. It is important that I stated and pointed out that they are not top Korean pros and are not facing 100% top Korean pros and therefore their argument is inefficacious. It is not attacking them FOR not being pros, it is attacking their argument of using a Korean pro-only chart and a Korean-pro-dominated tournament that is not even finished yet as some sort of clincher that in some way proves they are facing extreme racial imbalance. What? Nobody is complaining about what they face on ladder, although I'd say ZvT is pretty mechanically simple for Zerg in the sense that the imbalance is something anyone can take advantage of. | ||
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HeroMystic
United States1217 Posts
On June 18 2012 01:31 ZenithM wrote: I agree overall, but if an early 3rd is a bet, it still seems like a pretty damn safe one currently. The Terran who would go 2 base all in would take more risks than a Zerg with a blind early third (where blind = you saw that he went fast expand, so not completely blind :D) This is very different from before when Terran was going reactor hellion before expand and Zerg literally couldn't bring his drone to the third base unless he had roaches or like thirty lings, so it was 2 base vs 2 base for a while at least. That's exactly what I'm saying. Regardless of balance concerns, there is just no "tough choice" anymore for Zerg. Maek drones, maek queens, defend the little harass Terran can muster up early game, spread your creep like crazy, this is as good of a game plan as any, but it doesn't involve "reading your opponent strategy", "reacting", or whatever was said to be the challenge for Zerg back then. On the other hand, the options for Terran became extremely limited. | ||
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ysnake
Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On June 18 2012 00:55 Noocta wrote: Even if I know Select didn't play well, the NASL match SeleCt vs Ret on Antiga was pretty funny to look at. Ret basicly opened 6 queens fast third bases, make nothing but 2 lings, drones up to 70 drones. Seelect did a heavy agression build, 2 factory blue flame hellions, killed 15+ drones, Ret was basicly making more drones during the time, letting the queens kill everything. After the attack, the creep ( cross map antiga ) was at the entrance of SeleCt base. SeleCt was unable to take his fourth, even after 3 scans he could not kill all the tumors. :< Not saying it's a balance problem, but damn Queens are strong as hell. And since they don't cost larvaes, it change everything in the way Zerg is meant to be played ( choose between units and drones ) It was a good response from the Zerg, he builds only Hellions? I'm going to go with what counters Hellions, sure he could've made Roaches and whatnot (if I saw early Blue Flame Hellions, I'd freak out and go Roach instantly). Creep spread is FINE, creep receding is what is troublesome. Zerg has to spend quite a lot of time just focusing on the creep, and the Queens can always get sniped. Queens don't cost larvae? Their build time is 50 seconds. No one makes more than 5-6 Queens anyhow, and by that time, 5-6 larvae wouldn't be THAT big of a deal, so I do not see how that even stands as a point. I'd love if my Queens were built from larvae, so I can upgrade the Hatchery or use upgrades instead of waiting 50 seconds for the Queen to finish. This thread reminds me of official WoW forums, which is quite bad. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On June 18 2012 02:38 ysnake wrote: It was a good response from the Zerg, he builds only Hellions? I'm going to go with what counters Hellions "Be more greedy and expand with Queens" should not be what counters Hellions. Creep spread is FINE, No it's not. I don't care how much APM it takes. If you can get Creep halfway across Antiga Shipyard before 10 minutes, it's a problem. Let me just disprove this "it's hard so it's fair" argument right now. If there were a strategy that automatically won the game but required 400 APM, it would still be imbalanced. Why? Because it would be an auto-win. Similarly, while Creep may require some APM, it's certainly very easy for top level players like DRG to do, and the advantage gained is HUGE. | ||
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denzelz
United States604 Posts
On June 18 2012 01:54 HeroMystic wrote: On the other hand, the options for Terran became extremely limited. Really? Because the last time I checked, Terran still has the most units available. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On June 18 2012 02:50 denzelz wrote: Really? Because the last time I checked, Terran still has the most units available. Unit != viable builds. | ||
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