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Both infestors and queens are pretty messed up at the moment but I think of the two, I'd rather see infestors lose the ability to fungal growth air units. I don't think a single unit should simultaneously counter all bio, any unit requiring any micro, mass air, mass ground, massive and simultaneously be such an insanely effective harassment unit.
Infestors eclipsed the effectiveness of ghosts against protoss quite some time ago. Scaling that back would do an awful lot to help Terran late game vZ which is where the problem really lies - most of the trouble with that queen buff isn't that it makes hellion openings shit, but the fact that hellion openers or the threat of hellion openers was needed to stop zerg just building 70 drones and then teching immediately to hive for their deathball.
With infestors being unable to hit air, a zerg would have to go air in order to control medivacs and banshees and would no longer be able to just a move over a terran army. Probably wouldn't effect ZvP much other than to reintroduce void rays.
Hell under those circumstances skyterran would probably become standard. Banshee viking battlecruiser.
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On June 18 2012 07:52 Evangelist wrote:
Both infestors and queens are pretty messed up at the moment but I think of the two, I'd rather see infestors lose the ability to fungal growth air units. I don't think a single unit should simultaneously counter all bio, any unit requiring any micro, mass air, mass ground, massive and simultaneously be such an insanely effective harassment unit.
Infestors eclipsed the effectiveness of ghosts against protoss quite some time ago. Scaling that back would do an awful lot to help Terran late game vZ which is where the problem really lies - most of the trouble with that queen buff isn't that it makes hellion openings shit, but the fact that hellion openers or the threat of hellion openers was needed to stop zerg just building 70 drones and then teching immediately to hive for their deathball.
With infestors being unable to hit air, a zerg would have to go air in order to control medivacs and banshees and would no longer be able to just a move over a terran army. Probably wouldn't effect ZvP much other than to reintroduce void rays.
Hell under those circumstances skyterran would probably become standard. Banshee viking battlecruiser.
And then ZvZ would be a rush to muta MU. That is the reason it was changed back was because ZvZ would be even more retarded if FG didn't hit air.
Everyone raging against queens against air are stupid, they only got buffed against the ground...and zergs in more match ups were building 4 or 5 anyway. Remember thats 2 supply units, that are a necessity for macro mechanics alone. Can't we all just realise that balance is pretty fine at the moment, there are small problems PvZ which seems to be a bit broken in many areas, but TvZ is greatly balanced and PvT is pretty entertaining.
Perfect balance would be boring, this way with the slight errors in balance it makes it that littl emore interesting
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On June 18 2012 08:07 OptimusYale wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 07:52 Evangelist wrote:
Both infestors and queens are pretty messed up at the moment but I think of the two, I'd rather see infestors lose the ability to fungal growth air units. I don't think a single unit should simultaneously counter all bio, any unit requiring any micro, mass air, mass ground, massive and simultaneously be such an insanely effective harassment unit.
Infestors eclipsed the effectiveness of ghosts against protoss quite some time ago. Scaling that back would do an awful lot to help Terran late game vZ which is where the problem really lies - most of the trouble with that queen buff isn't that it makes hellion openings shit, but the fact that hellion openers or the threat of hellion openers was needed to stop zerg just building 70 drones and then teching immediately to hive for their deathball.
With infestors being unable to hit air, a zerg would have to go air in order to control medivacs and banshees and would no longer be able to just a move over a terran army. Probably wouldn't effect ZvP much other than to reintroduce void rays.
Hell under those circumstances skyterran would probably become standard. Banshee viking battlecruiser. And then ZvZ would be a rush to muta MU. That is the reason it was changed back was because ZvZ would be even more retarded if FG didn't hit air. Everyone raging against queens against air are stupid, they only got buffed against the ground...and zergs in more match ups were building 4 or 5 anyway. Remember thats 2 supply units, that are a necessity for macro mechanics alone. Can't we all just realise that balance is pretty fine at the moment, there are small problems PvZ which seems to be a bit broken in many areas, but TvZ is greatly balanced and PvT is pretty entertaining. Perfect balance would be boring, this way with the slight errors in balance it makes it that littl emore interesting
TvZ "greatly balanced"...
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHA.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On June 18 2012 08:07 OptimusYale wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 07:52 Evangelist wrote:
Both infestors and queens are pretty messed up at the moment but I think of the two, I'd rather see infestors lose the ability to fungal growth air units. I don't think a single unit should simultaneously counter all bio, any unit requiring any micro, mass air, mass ground, massive and simultaneously be such an insanely effective harassment unit.
Infestors eclipsed the effectiveness of ghosts against protoss quite some time ago. Scaling that back would do an awful lot to help Terran late game vZ which is where the problem really lies - most of the trouble with that queen buff isn't that it makes hellion openings shit, but the fact that hellion openers or the threat of hellion openers was needed to stop zerg just building 70 drones and then teching immediately to hive for their deathball.
With infestors being unable to hit air, a zerg would have to go air in order to control medivacs and banshees and would no longer be able to just a move over a terran army. Probably wouldn't effect ZvP much other than to reintroduce void rays.
Hell under those circumstances skyterran would probably become standard. Banshee viking battlecruiser. And then ZvZ would be a rush to muta MU. That is the reason it was changed back was because ZvZ would be even more retarded if FG didn't hit air. Everyone raging against queens against air are stupid, they only got buffed against the ground...and zergs in more match ups were building 4 or 5 anyway. Remember thats 2 supply units, that are a necessity for macro mechanics alone. Can't we all just realise that balance is pretty fine at the moment, there are small problems PvZ which seems to be a bit broken in many areas, but TvZ is greatly balanced and PvT is pretty entertaining. Perfect balance would be boring, this way with the slight errors in balance it makes it that littl emore interesting
TvZ is not greatly balanced anymore ( Either nerf the Zerg deathball or make it harder to creepspread half the map and saturate 3 bases ) and PvT is not entertaining when there's a counter on one race where they have to win since games that go one just become insane drags .
Zerg and Toss most of the games rush to deathballs these days and Terrans has to try and stop it or probably lose. Once in a while someone does something else but it has become very rare these days.
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On June 18 2012 08:07 OptimusYale wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 07:52 Evangelist wrote:
Both infestors and queens are pretty messed up at the moment but I think of the two, I'd rather see infestors lose the ability to fungal growth air units. I don't think a single unit should simultaneously counter all bio, any unit requiring any micro, mass air, mass ground, massive and simultaneously be such an insanely effective harassment unit.
Infestors eclipsed the effectiveness of ghosts against protoss quite some time ago. Scaling that back would do an awful lot to help Terran late game vZ which is where the problem really lies - most of the trouble with that queen buff isn't that it makes hellion openings shit, but the fact that hellion openers or the threat of hellion openers was needed to stop zerg just building 70 drones and then teching immediately to hive for their deathball.
With infestors being unable to hit air, a zerg would have to go air in order to control medivacs and banshees and would no longer be able to just a move over a terran army. Probably wouldn't effect ZvP much other than to reintroduce void rays.
Hell under those circumstances skyterran would probably become standard. Banshee viking battlecruiser. And then ZvZ would be a rush to muta MU. That is the reason it was changed back was because ZvZ would be even more retarded if FG didn't hit air. Everyone raging against queens against air are stupid, they only got buffed against the ground...and zergs in more match ups were building 4 or 5 anyway. Remember thats 2 supply units, that are a necessity for macro mechanics alone. Can't we all just realise that balance is pretty fine at the moment, there are small problems PvZ which seems to be a bit broken in many areas, but TvZ is greatly balanced and PvT is pretty entertaining. Perfect balance would be boring, this way with the slight errors in balance it makes it that littl emore interesting
I severely disagree. TvZ was greatly balanced before the patch. Now that Blizzard messed up with it, we now have to deal with the #1 issue with the design of Terran that Blizzard and many players have decided to ignore: Terran's lategame is absolutely terrible.
The way how Terran works vs Z/P, as well as T v Mech is you do early/mid game damage to either be even or ahead of the opponent when lategame arises. Blizzard fucked this up vs Z with the Queen buff and TvP has been a massive complaint because Protoss has naturally stopped sucking.
So the natural answer is to get a lategame comp right? Well, we don't have a lategame composition. We have COUNTERS to a lategame composition.
Ultras? Get Marauders.
Broodlord? Get Viking/Raven
Broodlord/Infestor? Get Viking/Raven and pray to Dustin Browder that you don't get Fungal'd.
Ultra into Broodlord transition? Better hope your economy didn't get totally fucked.
Broodlord into Ultra transition? Hahahaha, good luck.
Lets see what we can consider as lategame units for Terran vs Z.
-Raven: The ONLY unit worthy to be called a "Lategame" unit. Hunter Seeker Missile is a fucking awesome spell and shits all over Corrupters and Broodlords. This is until Zerg finally learns how to split their shit. PDD is great vs Corrupters too and Auto-Turret spam is a great defense for Tank lines.
-Viking: The On-paper counter to Broodlords. However Infestors are so freaken good that they end up sucking. And now that we have no effective away to slow down Zerg without going for a 3 OC build and streaming in Marine/Marauder/Tank squads till the end of time, Vikings only got worse.
-Ghost: Sucked ever since the Snipe nerf. EMP vs Infestor is kinda viable but the radius is so small and Zerg gets so many infestors anyway that it doesn't matter. Nuking expansions is very cost efficient late game but Ghosts are unable to close out a game because unlike an Infestor, Ghosts can't Fungal an entire army to death because they mispositioned their units.
-Battlecrusier: lol.
Out of all the lategame units, Raven is the only unit that deserves the title. However, fully upgrading a Raven is the equivalent to getting good service at McDonalds. It's damn near impossible, and when it does happen it's because the stars aligned and Browder graced you with his blessing.
So yeah, bottomline, if the Queen buff stays, Raven needs a buff. Lower the cost of HSM to 100, Make Auto Turrets cost 25 energy, increase Raven speed, whatever. But the Raven needs some love and it's the perfect unit to have a viable lategame for all match-ups.
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On June 18 2012 08:55 HeroMystic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 08:07 OptimusYale wrote:On June 18 2012 07:52 Evangelist wrote:
Both infestors and queens are pretty messed up at the moment but I think of the two, I'd rather see infestors lose the ability to fungal growth air units. I don't think a single unit should simultaneously counter all bio, any unit requiring any micro, mass air, mass ground, massive and simultaneously be such an insanely effective harassment unit.
Infestors eclipsed the effectiveness of ghosts against protoss quite some time ago. Scaling that back would do an awful lot to help Terran late game vZ which is where the problem really lies - most of the trouble with that queen buff isn't that it makes hellion openings shit, but the fact that hellion openers or the threat of hellion openers was needed to stop zerg just building 70 drones and then teching immediately to hive for their deathball.
With infestors being unable to hit air, a zerg would have to go air in order to control medivacs and banshees and would no longer be able to just a move over a terran army. Probably wouldn't effect ZvP much other than to reintroduce void rays.
Hell under those circumstances skyterran would probably become standard. Banshee viking battlecruiser. And then ZvZ would be a rush to muta MU. That is the reason it was changed back was because ZvZ would be even more retarded if FG didn't hit air. Everyone raging against queens against air are stupid, they only got buffed against the ground...and zergs in more match ups were building 4 or 5 anyway. Remember thats 2 supply units, that are a necessity for macro mechanics alone. Can't we all just realise that balance is pretty fine at the moment, there are small problems PvZ which seems to be a bit broken in many areas, but TvZ is greatly balanced and PvT is pretty entertaining. Perfect balance would be boring, this way with the slight errors in balance it makes it that littl emore interesting I severely disagree. TvZ was greatly balanced before the patch. Now that Blizzard messed up with it, we now have to deal with the #1 issue with the design of Terran that Blizzard and many players have decided to ignore: Terran's lategame is absolutely terrible. The way how Terran works vs Z/P, as well as T v Mech is you do early/mid game damage to either be even or ahead of the opponent when lategame arises. Blizzard fucked this up vs Z with the Queen buff and TvP has been a massive complaint because Protoss has naturally stopped sucking. So the natural answer is to get a lategame comp right? Well, we don't have a lategame composition. We have COUNTERS to a lategame composition. Ultras? Get Marauders. Broodlord? Get Viking/Raven Broodlord/Infestor? Get Viking/Raven and pray to Dustin Browder that you don't get Fungal'd. Ultra into Broodlord transition? Better hope your economy didn't get totally fucked. Broodlord into Ultra transition? Hahahaha, good luck. Lets see what we can consider as lategame units for Terran vs Z. -Raven: The ONLY unit worthy to be called a "Lategame" unit. Hunter Seeker Missile is a fucking awesome spell and shits all over Corrupters and Broodlords. This is until Zerg finally learns how to split their shit. PDD is great vs Corrupters too and Auto-Turret spam is a great defense for Tank lines. -Viking: The On-paper counter to Broodlords. However Infestors are so freaken good that they end up sucking. And now that we have no effective away to slow down Zerg without going for a 3 OC build and streaming in Marine/Marauder/Tank squads till the end of time, Vikings only got worse. -Ghost: Sucked ever since the Snipe nerf. EMP vs Infestor is kinda viable but the radius is so small and Zerg gets so many infestors anyway that it doesn't matter. Nuking expansions is very cost efficient late game but Ghosts are unable to close out a game because unlike an Infestor, Ghosts can't Fungal an entire army to death because they mispositioned their units. -Battlecrusier: lol. Out of all the lategame units, Raven is the only unit that deserves the title. However, fully upgrading a Raven is the equivalent to getting good service at McDonalds. It's damn near impossible, and when it does happen it's because the stars aligned and Browder graced you with his blessing. So yeah, bottomline, if the Queen buff stays, Raven needs a buff. Lower the cost of HSM to 100, Make Auto Turrets cost 25 energy, increase Raven speed, whatever. But the Raven needs some love and it's the perfect unit to have a viable lategame for all match-ups.
And none of the HOTS updates to Terran are to address Terran's late-game problem. Widow mine is as early as hellion. Battle hellion is a Tier 2 unit. And warhound at most can be a late-game unit, which is a unit designed to address TvP problem but completely irrelevant in TvZ. The only thing I can think of it's the battlecruiser's speed boost ability of which I can't see the potential in addressing Terran's late-game problem.
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And none of the HOTS updates to Terran are to address Terran's late-game problem. Widow mine is as early as hellion. Battle hellion is a Tier 2 unit. And warhound at most can be a late-game unit, which is a unit designed to address TvP problem but completely irrelevant in TvZ. The only thing I can think of it's the battlecruiser's speed boost ability of which I can't see the potential in addressing Terran's late-game problem.
To bring BC to life - energy must be removed from it(to avoid stupid FB), it's the first. And second - infestor's NP must be changed to only hit ground units.
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Regardless of balance, ghost nerf was a huge mistake to pigeonhole the unit as anti-caster only.
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Speaking as a fan of the game, not as a player (I do play, but I play Protoss) I cannot fathom why they made such a huge change to a relatively stable matchup in TvZ. It has made watching the matchup completely different and far less interesting.
I can understand making tweaks, but taking a matchup with relatively close winrates and then making a huge change to the most important and useful Zerg unit is just bizarre honestly.
Blizzard doesn't seem to understand you can fix things with little changes. This queen buff and the snipe nerf that affected snipe not just in TvZ, but also TvT and TvP where it wasn't a problem are great examples of this.
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I like what Frodan and Gretorp said during this night NASL broadcast.
Zerg just ain't afraid anymore in ZvT.
They are so confident in the matchup, nothing can really make them worry. No timings are scary, no composition is scary.
ZvT is just really relaxing to play because you know you're in a pretty good spot from the start.
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Problem: Terrans feel hopeless when pushing in the midgame because of overwhelming creep spread.
(Potential) solution: Keep marines group around with a quick medivac. Allows you to kill / zone queens while picking in medivac if things get hairy. Also forces Zerg to make units.
Side effects: Lose some marine production / gas with early medivac (specific tech)
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On June 18 2012 12:08 Noocta wrote:
I like what Frodan and Gretorp said during this night NASL broadcast.
Zerg just ain't afraid anymore in ZvT.
They are so confident in the matchup, nothing can really make them worry. No timings are scary, no composition is scary.
ZvT is just really relaxing to play because you know you're in a pretty good spot from the start.
Actually you don't have to be a pro or whatsoever... It's enough to just watch a few tournaments over the past 2-3 month.
TvZ is a challenge for T regardless of what actually T does.
Mass lings, banelings with infestors counter everything. If it's late game then just switch from BL to ultra.
And then again: "we are looking closely to our statistics... blah, blah, blah..."
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On June 18 2012 11:30 larse wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 08:55 HeroMystic wrote:On June 18 2012 08:07 OptimusYale wrote:On June 18 2012 07:52 Evangelist wrote:
Both infestors and queens are pretty messed up at the moment but I think of the two, I'd rather see infestors lose the ability to fungal growth air units. I don't think a single unit should simultaneously counter all bio, any unit requiring any micro, mass air, mass ground, massive and simultaneously be such an insanely effective harassment unit.
Infestors eclipsed the effectiveness of ghosts against protoss quite some time ago. Scaling that back would do an awful lot to help Terran late game vZ which is where the problem really lies - most of the trouble with that queen buff isn't that it makes hellion openings shit, but the fact that hellion openers or the threat of hellion openers was needed to stop zerg just building 70 drones and then teching immediately to hive for their deathball.
With infestors being unable to hit air, a zerg would have to go air in order to control medivacs and banshees and would no longer be able to just a move over a terran army. Probably wouldn't effect ZvP much other than to reintroduce void rays.
Hell under those circumstances skyterran would probably become standard. Banshee viking battlecruiser. And then ZvZ would be a rush to muta MU. That is the reason it was changed back was because ZvZ would be even more retarded if FG didn't hit air. Everyone raging against queens against air are stupid, they only got buffed against the ground...and zergs in more match ups were building 4 or 5 anyway. Remember thats 2 supply units, that are a necessity for macro mechanics alone. Can't we all just realise that balance is pretty fine at the moment, there are small problems PvZ which seems to be a bit broken in many areas, but TvZ is greatly balanced and PvT is pretty entertaining. Perfect balance would be boring, this way with the slight errors in balance it makes it that littl emore interesting I severely disagree. TvZ was greatly balanced before the patch. Now that Blizzard messed up with it, we now have to deal with the #1 issue with the design of Terran that Blizzard and many players have decided to ignore: Terran's lategame is absolutely terrible. The way how Terran works vs Z/P, as well as T v Mech is you do early/mid game damage to either be even or ahead of the opponent when lategame arises. Blizzard fucked this up vs Z with the Queen buff and TvP has been a massive complaint because Protoss has naturally stopped sucking. So the natural answer is to get a lategame comp right? Well, we don't have a lategame composition. We have COUNTERS to a lategame composition. Ultras? Get Marauders. Broodlord? Get Viking/Raven Broodlord/Infestor? Get Viking/Raven and pray to Dustin Browder that you don't get Fungal'd. Ultra into Broodlord transition? Better hope your economy didn't get totally fucked. Broodlord into Ultra transition? Hahahaha, good luck. Lets see what we can consider as lategame units for Terran vs Z. -Raven: The ONLY unit worthy to be called a "Lategame" unit. Hunter Seeker Missile is a fucking awesome spell and shits all over Corrupters and Broodlords. This is until Zerg finally learns how to split their shit. PDD is great vs Corrupters too and Auto-Turret spam is a great defense for Tank lines. -Viking: The On-paper counter to Broodlords. However Infestors are so freaken good that they end up sucking. And now that we have no effective away to slow down Zerg without going for a 3 OC build and streaming in Marine/Marauder/Tank squads till the end of time, Vikings only got worse. -Ghost: Sucked ever since the Snipe nerf. EMP vs Infestor is kinda viable but the radius is so small and Zerg gets so many infestors anyway that it doesn't matter. Nuking expansions is very cost efficient late game but Ghosts are unable to close out a game because unlike an Infestor, Ghosts can't Fungal an entire army to death because they mispositioned their units. -Battlecrusier: lol. Out of all the lategame units, Raven is the only unit that deserves the title. However, fully upgrading a Raven is the equivalent to getting good service at McDonalds. It's damn near impossible, and when it does happen it's because the stars aligned and Browder graced you with his blessing. So yeah, bottomline, if the Queen buff stays, Raven needs a buff. Lower the cost of HSM to 100, Make Auto Turrets cost 25 energy, increase Raven speed, whatever. But the Raven needs some love and it's the perfect unit to have a viable lategame for all match-ups. And none of the HOTS updates to Terran are to address Terran's late-game problem. Widow mine is as early as hellion. Battle hellion is a Tier 2 unit. And warhound at most can be a late-game unit, which is a unit designed to address TvP problem but completely irrelevant in TvZ. The only thing I can think of it's the battlecruiser's speed boost ability of which I can't see the potential in addressing Terran's late-game problem.
A lot of this is because Blizzard looks at the win rates and go "hay guiz win rates is even lolz".
I would initially call out BS, especially when you look at GSTL and Dreamhack as evidence, but then I realize Terran are relying on their 3-base aggression (MMM or Marine/Tank) to pull out wins that would be impossible otherwise.
So Terrans are essentially avoiding the lategame vs Z to get their wins. This makes Blizzard turn a blind eye to Terran's lategame problem and just high five each other all day.
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On June 18 2012 12:19 LowEloPlayer wrote:
Problem: Terrans feel hopeless when pushing in the midgame because of overwhelming creep spread.
(Potential) solution: Keep marines group around with a quick medivac. Allows you to kill / zone queens while picking in medivac if things get hairy. Also forces Zerg to make units.
Side effects: Lose some marine production / gas with early medivac (specific tech)
Somewhat related to that... Would making a single raven for the main purpose of acting as a detector- so that the Terran doesn't have to keep wasting scans/ energy- be a good option for clearing out creep tumors? It would be the equivalent of the Protoss's observer, and it couldn't hurt to have a raven out that early with its other abilities anyway.
I understand that the starports are usually used for quick medivac production but I don't really see ravens ever coming out early on and I'm curious why.
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On June 18 2012 12:37 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 12:19 LowEloPlayer wrote:
Problem: Terrans feel hopeless when pushing in the midgame because of overwhelming creep spread.
(Potential) solution: Keep marines group around with a quick medivac. Allows you to kill / zone queens while picking in medivac if things get hairy. Also forces Zerg to make units.
Side effects: Lose some marine production / gas with early medivac (specific tech) Somewhat related to that... Would making a single raven for the main purpose of acting as a detector- so that the Terran doesn't have to keep wasting scans/ energy- be a good option for clearing out creep tumors? It would be the equivalent of the Protoss's observer, and it couldn't hurt to have a raven out that early with its other abilities anyway. I understand that the starports are usually used for quick medivac production but I don't really see ravens ever coming out early on and I'm curious why.
It can be done, but to get the ravens out early you usually need to open something related to banshee.
And you will scan anyway, for burrow units / in front of your army so you don't get caught.
The other thing, 1 raven early is like completly useless outside of detection.
No zerg units are affected by PPD beside Queens ( can be good for banshees+ ravbens opening ) and Muta ( havent seen one in weeks ).
So in the end, slowing down your build by making a Raven when you didn't plan to get a techlab starport is not really worth it.
The problem right now is the early creep spread ( what the 4 hellions used to be able to deny )
2 Banshees + 1 Raven opening are starting to show up to handle this a little better, but they have the opening have flaws.
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Supply before Barracks
Barracks build time increased
Reaper nerfed
Battlecruiser nerfed
Thor nerfed
Ghost nerfed ((emp and snipe))
Siege Tank nerfed
Blue Flame nerfed
Viking nerfed
Bunker build time increased
**note I might have missed something, but im not sure**
((on top of the other two races recieving buffs in some aspect to help counter said nerfed units^))
But hey, at Least Terran has Marines+stim right? apperantly Marine+stim is equal to or greater than the most rounded out list of units to choose to build from. I dont see what all the hub-bub is about. Zerg is strong in all aspects of the game, Protoss is strong late game, Terran has Marines+stim, that they have to do damage with early game ((in the form of an all-in)) to stand a chance later in the game ((by winning with their initial all-in)). Sounds like some legit balancing too me.
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On June 18 2012 12:19 LowEloPlayer wrote:
Problem: Terrans feel hopeless when pushing in the midgame because of overwhelming creep spread.
(Potential) solution: Keep marines group around with a quick medivac. Allows you to kill / zone queens while picking in medivac if things get hairy. Also forces Zerg to make units.
Side effects: Lose some marine production / gas with early medivac (specific tech)
Stimless Marines can't contain creep or zone Queens unless the Zerg only has like 1-2 out on the Map and/or doesn't build any Lings. And if you wait for Stim to begin your creep contain its already too late he's already halfway across most maps at that point.
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On June 18 2012 12:37 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 12:19 LowEloPlayer wrote:
Problem: Terrans feel hopeless when pushing in the midgame because of overwhelming creep spread.
(Potential) solution: Keep marines group around with a quick medivac. Allows you to kill / zone queens while picking in medivac if things get hairy. Also forces Zerg to make units.
Side effects: Lose some marine production / gas with early medivac (specific tech) Somewhat related to that... Would making a single raven for the main purpose of acting as a detector- so that the Terran doesn't have to keep wasting scans/ energy- be a good option for clearing out creep tumors? It would be the equivalent of the Protoss's observer, and it couldn't hurt to have a raven out that early with its other abilities anyway. I understand that the starports are usually used for quick medivac production but I don't really see ravens ever coming out early on and I'm curious why.
Ravens literally do nothing early/midgame other than detecting unless he has mutas or corruptors and they're very fragile , slow and clunky. They just aren't good units early on. Would you spend 200 Gas early on for an Observer that isn't even invisible ? Because thats all Ravens do against anything but Zerg Air. Autoturrets are a gigantic joke , PDD with its stationary defense is not that great against Queens considering they shooting fast with low damage and HSM well you don't have at that point.
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On June 18 2012 12:37 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 12:19 LowEloPlayer wrote:
Problem: Terrans feel hopeless when pushing in the midgame because of overwhelming creep spread.
(Potential) solution: Keep marines group around with a quick medivac. Allows you to kill / zone queens while picking in medivac if things get hairy. Also forces Zerg to make units.
Side effects: Lose some marine production / gas with early medivac (specific tech) Somewhat related to that... Would making a single raven for the main purpose of acting as a detector- so that the Terran doesn't have to keep wasting scans/ energy- be a good option for clearing out creep tumors? It would be the equivalent of the Protoss's observer, and it couldn't hurt to have a raven out that early with its other abilities anyway. I understand that the starports are usually used for quick medivac production but I don't really see ravens ever coming out early on and I'm curious why.
Remember a raven costs a minute, then you have to factor in the cost of a minute of another building (lost 2 marauders or 1tank).
I figure it's because the time it takes to swap starport and a tech lab barracks/factory is the time it takes for two or three larva cycles to kick in for zerg (every 25 seconds), which means your eventual pre-lategame push is severely weakened. When Code S Terrans do a build it's often to hit good timings that don't want to be over a minute late.
At around 10 minutes, that's 3 hatcheries, 3x4=12, or 24 more lings or 24 banelings to deal with, or 12 more roaches, you get the idea. It's a big delay for the sake of getting creep out of the way - you might think it's worth it but I suppose Code S terrans do not when you can drop 300 minerals on an instant scan at the time and place of your choosing, it won't get in the way of army management (Do ravens outprioritize Marines/marauders like ghosts do? That's very annoying).
On a general note, Zerg has played against Terran long enough to get a better feel of these timings, and know how to react based on the now easier scouting they do. This was becoming more apparent even before the Ov/Queen patch (May TvZ win rates, etc) With no way to scare the zerg into not building drones at times they don't want to it's hard to get a lead.
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I like the games I saw in some tournament a few days ago, don't remember which one it was, but one of them was the banshee raven hellions go deny creep, the other was 2 medivacs 10 marines 2 tanks in groups, but its not really a viable thing, since on small maps zerg creep is already out of hand.
the most bizarre thing about the queen buff, is that they tested it for 5 days on a custom map, then role it out right away. That to me sounds so strange.
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EPT
