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On June 18 2012 02:50 denzelz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 01:54 HeroMystic wrote:On June 18 2012 01:31 ZenithM wrote:On June 18 2012 00:48 ETisME wrote:On June 17 2012 23:32 ZenithM wrote:On June 17 2012 23:15 ETisME wrote:On June 17 2012 23:00 ZenithM wrote:On June 17 2012 22:26 sGs.Stregon wrote:On June 17 2012 07:05 neoghaleon55 wrote:On June 17 2012 07:01 TeeTS wrote:
[quote]
And it seems like only this fact was holding zergs back to get their free thirds and dronecounts completely out of control. Yeah, it's pretty fair now. You are right!
Zerg getting a fast third does not mean the end of the game. It kind of does. It kinda does indeed. Only way you can find your way out of this one is to have an early third CC yourself (and not die to roach/banelings, obviously). it doesn't. You can still expand to third during applying a 2 base aggression and hit before broodlords finish. It is when the broodlords are out that win zerg the game, not the third. the reason why zerg can get on a third is easily is largely because of the quick 3CC, rather than needing to build macro hatch and prepare for 2 base aggression No, the reason Zerg can get a third this early is because of the quick SECOND CC, not the quick third CC :D It's not that hard to understand, it's exactly the same in ZvP. P/T makes his 2nd at the same time you make your 2nd as Zerg, you make your 3rd as a response. I'm not saying it's bad, but as Terran you kind of need your own third early too. There is a reason Koreans only do fast 3rd CC nowadays. Or can you give me some examples of effective Terran 2 base timings? And when I say fast 3rd, it's not gasless 3rd either, it may be hellions then third, one banshee then third, something like that, but definitely not "add a complete 2 base production then third", which is completely ineffective currently. As for droning freely, obviously you have to make queens to defend the hellions and banshees (because as it turns out, queens defend both), it's the so called 6 queens build which defends kinda everything, while pushing creep unbelievably quickly. But queens don't come from larvae so you can still SDDDDDDD to your heart's content. You don't have to make larvae units to defend hellions/banshee/raven. That is quite map dependent though, a third is spreading defense extremely thin and there are mobile hyper aggression builds like marauder mass hellion 2 base push could kill off the third really quite easily. 6 queens are good against those quick 3rd CC harassment builds for sure like you said. I do often see revival poking or sacing overlords to check what is the terran going after the quick 2nd CC and reactor hellion before getting the 3rd/macro hatch down. I agree overall, but if an early 3rd is a bet, it still seems like a pretty damn safe one currently. The Terran who would go 2 base all in would take more risks than a Zerg with a blind early third (where blind = you saw that he went fast expand, so not completely blind :D) This is very different from before when Terran was going reactor hellion before expand and Zerg literally couldn't bring his drone to the third base unless he had roaches or like thirty lings, so it was 2 base vs 2 base for a while at least. On June 18 2012 00:55 Noocta wrote:
[...]
And since they don't cost larvaes, it change everything in the way Zerg is meant to be played ( choose between units and drones ) That's exactly what I'm saying. Regardless of balance concerns, there is just no "tough choice" anymore for Zerg. Maek drones, maek queens, defend the little harass Terran can muster up early game, spread your creep like crazy, this is as good of a game plan as any, but it doesn't involve "reading your opponent strategy", "reacting", or whatever was said to be the challenge for Zerg back then. On the other hand, the options for Terran became extremely limited. Really? Because the last time I checked, Terran still has the most units available.
-_______-
face fucking palm.
Do you listen to music or just skim through it?
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^^ that doesnt mean you can use them all. 6 queens basically stop any terran opener right now. Hellions countered, banshee countered, reaper is just a joke,marine push counter by queens and a few spine crawler thanks to having mass heal from 6 queens. If we try for quick 3cc we either get punished for it, or the zerg play EXTRA greedy and everyone knows you cant outmacro zerg.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On June 18 2012 02:48 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 02:38 ysnake wrote:On June 18 2012 00:55 Noocta wrote:
Even if I know Select didn't play well, the NASL match SeleCt vs Ret on Antiga was pretty funny to look at.
Ret basicly opened 6 queens fast third bases, make nothing but 2 lings, drones up to 70 drones.
Seelect did a heavy agression build, 2 factory blue flame hellions, killed 15+ drones,
Ret was basicly making more drones during the time, letting the queens kill everything.
After the attack, the creep ( cross map antiga ) was at the entrance of SeleCt base. SeleCt was unable to take his fourth, even after 3 scans he could not kill all the tumors. :<
Not saying it's a balance problem, but damn Queens are strong as hell. And since they don't cost larvaes, it change everything in the way Zerg is meant to be played ( choose between units and drones ) It was a good response from the Zerg, he builds only Hellions? I'm going to go with what counters Hellions "Be more greedy and expand with Queens" should not be what counters Hellions. No it's not. I don't care how much APM it takes. If you can get Creep halfway across Antiga Shipyard before 10 minutes, it's a problem. Let me just disprove this "it's hard so it's fair" argument right now. If there were a strategy that automatically won the game but required 400 APM, it would still be imbalanced. Why? Because it would be an auto-win. Similarly, while Creep may require some APM, it's certainly very easy for top level players like DRG to do, and the advantage gained is HUGE.
You are talking about imbalance and yet you say Hellion openers cannot hinder a Zerg enough? They can kill so many drones if you catch the Zerg who didn't scout it that is completely imbalanced if you look at it in such way. Let's presume you managed to kill 8 Drones (lower league players just frantically click all their Drones away which puts them in a line, easy snipe for Hellions), that's 8 larvae the Zerg player needs to spend on making Drones to be back where he was at, when that could've been 16 Zerglings.
I saw this on Idra's stream a long time ago and been using it ever since, as soon as I poke with my Zerglings and see Hellions I immediatelly make 4 control groups just for Drones at my Natural, so that I can send them in all directions.
Quite frankly, the only units a Zerg can have at the stage when Hellions come are Zerglings (usually without speed), and Hellions counter them. Zerg needs something to defend against that, remember, Blizzard was opting for either giving Queens range buff or 50 Energy when they spawn, because Hellion openers were so good as easily executed. Don't tell me to put Spine Crawlers(plural), because they cost Drones+stationary defense.
Like I said, Creep Spread is fine, Creep RECEDING is not.
You are basically arguing over mechanics of the game that is similar to people crying about Protoss warp-ins. The Zerg player NEEDS to be on the map, if a Zerg attacks you just straight on, that is not a good engagement, they want to come from all sides, that's the whole design of it, to swarm you.
Should I just say now that I lost to a Terran player who knew how to split his Marines against my Banelings/Infestors and basically negating most of my units? It requires more APM, yes, but MKP can seemingly pull it off with ease.
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On June 18 2012 03:07 ysnake wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 02:48 Shiori wrote:On June 18 2012 02:38 ysnake wrote:On June 18 2012 00:55 Noocta wrote:
Even if I know Select didn't play well, the NASL match SeleCt vs Ret on Antiga was pretty funny to look at.
Ret basicly opened 6 queens fast third bases, make nothing but 2 lings, drones up to 70 drones.
Seelect did a heavy agression build, 2 factory blue flame hellions, killed 15+ drones,
Ret was basicly making more drones during the time, letting the queens kill everything.
After the attack, the creep ( cross map antiga ) was at the entrance of SeleCt base. SeleCt was unable to take his fourth, even after 3 scans he could not kill all the tumors. :<
Not saying it's a balance problem, but damn Queens are strong as hell. And since they don't cost larvaes, it change everything in the way Zerg is meant to be played ( choose between units and drones ) It was a good response from the Zerg, he builds only Hellions? I'm going to go with what counters Hellions "Be more greedy and expand with Queens" should not be what counters Hellions. Creep spread is FINE,
No it's not. I don't care how much APM it takes. If you can get Creep halfway across Antiga Shipyard before 10 minutes, it's a problem. Let me just disprove this "it's hard so it's fair" argument right now. If there were a strategy that automatically won the game but required 400 APM, it would still be imbalanced. Why? Because it would be an auto-win. Similarly, while Creep may require some APM, it's certainly very easy for top level players like DRG to do, and the advantage gained is HUGE. You are talking about imbalance and yet you say Hellion openers cannot hinder a Zerg enough? They can kill so many drones if you catch the Zerg who didn't scout it that is completely imbalanced if you look at it in such way. Let's presume you managed to kill 8 Drones (lower league players just frantically click all their Drones away which puts them in a line, easy snipe for Hellions), that's 8 larvae the Zerg player needs to spend on making Drones to be back where he was at, when that could've been 16 Zerglings. I saw this on Idra's stream a long time ago and been using it ever since, as soon as I poke with my Zerglings and see Hellions I immediatelly make 4 control groups just for Drones at my Natural, so that I can send them in all directions. Quite frankly, the only units a Zerg can have at the stage when Hellions come are Zerglings (usually without speed), and Hellions counter them. Zerg needs something to defend against that, remember, Blizzard was opting for either giving Queens range buff or 50 Energy when they spawn, because Hellion openers were so good as easily executed. Don't tell me to put Spine Crawlers(plural), because they cost Drones+stationary defense. Like I said, Creep Spread is fine, Creep RECEDING is not. You are basically arguing over mechanics of the game that is similar to people crying about Protoss warp-ins. The Zerg player NEEDS to be on the map, if a Zerg attacks you just straight on, that is not a good engagement, they want to come from all sides, that's the whole design of it, to swarm you. Should I just say now that I lost to a Terran player who knew how to split his Marines against my Banelings/Infestors and basically negating most of my units? It requires more APM, yes, but MKP can seemingly pull it off with ease.
Quoting so that it doesn't get edited away.
You, sir, have just admitted to the fact that this buff only helps Zergs who don't know what they're doing (low leaguers) and Zergs who play overly greedy (Idra).
You also just re-asserted that Creep Spread is fine. It isn't. I see no reason to agree with you that coating over half the map by 10 minutes is fine. Creep Spread in general might be fine, but that speed certainly isn't.
Learn to simcity your base, make a Spine and a Couple of Queens, and you'll be safe against standard Hellion openers, which were so common you barely even needed to scout them. If it was an all-in, so what? It's supposed to be hard to hold; it's an ALL-IN. Besides, you got nitro Overlords now so all-ins are easy to scout. No need to simultaneously buff the Queen.
When Hellion openers cost tech, delay Siege Mode, and imply a lower Marine count, you should have to make a Spine and some units to defend them. WTF? How is this imbalanced? Is zerg just supposed to be allowed to get 80 Drones without fear of anything?
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On June 18 2012 00:37 Probe1 wrote:
Thanks sCCrooked. I agree with you but you could have just cut it short at "The reason for this question is simple. According to the source you all are trying to use as some sort of proof as your vs Zerg issues, the international winrates are still even.
And you would be wrong unless you consider 55% even.
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Blizzard's reason for the Queen buff was PROS having problems with Hellion openers, typically bogstandard 4 from a Reactor Hellion expand. I can't remember a game where that build was ever a problem apart from rare, random flukes. Simple semi-walls like toss does, then either inch spine forward while using it to protect creep tumors or build units to shoo the Hellions away to be able to spread more creep and take the third. In the very same high level play used to justify the stupid buff the Hellion Expand was only ever a speedbump, not a damage build. It just forced Zerg to make something other than drones and not take a ridiculously fast third. That is all.
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they should seriously keep in consideration, a tank buff(60 damage), now that the maps are more bigs
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FG should not hit air and the queen buff was bonkers. Zerg games are becoming ridiculous.
EDIT for clarification: zerg should be forced to make anti air to protect BLs and without it, air P and T would do it's intended job...kill the BL; the queen buff makes what used to be gready droning be standard, making hive tech even stronger.
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I just think they overdid things with the queen range, that's all. Most of current problems can be traced back to it. Can someone explain to me why they went from 3 to 5, and didn't even try 4 range?
The overlord buff was long overdue. The queen buff seemed unnecessary at release and has broken more things than it has fixed. Time to revert, like they did with the thor buff.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On June 18 2012 03:11 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 03:07 ysnake wrote:On June 18 2012 02:48 Shiori wrote:On June 18 2012 02:38 ysnake wrote:On June 18 2012 00:55 Noocta wrote:
Even if I know Select didn't play well, the NASL match SeleCt vs Ret on Antiga was pretty funny to look at.
Ret basicly opened 6 queens fast third bases, make nothing but 2 lings, drones up to 70 drones.
Seelect did a heavy agression build, 2 factory blue flame hellions, killed 15+ drones,
Ret was basicly making more drones during the time, letting the queens kill everything.
After the attack, the creep ( cross map antiga ) was at the entrance of SeleCt base. SeleCt was unable to take his fourth, even after 3 scans he could not kill all the tumors. :<
Not saying it's a balance problem, but damn Queens are strong as hell. And since they don't cost larvaes, it change everything in the way Zerg is meant to be played ( choose between units and drones ) It was a good response from the Zerg, he builds only Hellions? I'm going to go with what counters Hellions "Be more greedy and expand with Queens" should not be what counters Hellions. Creep spread is FINE,
No it's not. I don't care how much APM it takes. If you can get Creep halfway across Antiga Shipyard before 10 minutes, it's a problem. Let me just disprove this "it's hard so it's fair" argument right now. If there were a strategy that automatically won the game but required 400 APM, it would still be imbalanced. Why? Because it would be an auto-win. Similarly, while Creep may require some APM, it's certainly very easy for top level players like DRG to do, and the advantage gained is HUGE. You are talking about imbalance and yet you say Hellion openers cannot hinder a Zerg enough? They can kill so many drones if you catch the Zerg who didn't scout it that is completely imbalanced if you look at it in such way. Let's presume you managed to kill 8 Drones (lower league players just frantically click all their Drones away which puts them in a line, easy snipe for Hellions), that's 8 larvae the Zerg player needs to spend on making Drones to be back where he was at, when that could've been 16 Zerglings. I saw this on Idra's stream a long time ago and been using it ever since, as soon as I poke with my Zerglings and see Hellions I immediatelly make 4 control groups just for Drones at my Natural, so that I can send them in all directions. Quite frankly, the only units a Zerg can have at the stage when Hellions come are Zerglings (usually without speed), and Hellions counter them. Zerg needs something to defend against that, remember, Blizzard was opting for either giving Queens range buff or 50 Energy when they spawn, because Hellion openers were so good as easily executed. Don't tell me to put Spine Crawlers(plural), because they cost Drones+stationary defense. Like I said, Creep Spread is fine, Creep RECEDING is not. You are basically arguing over mechanics of the game that is similar to people crying about Protoss warp-ins. The Zerg player NEEDS to be on the map, if a Zerg attacks you just straight on, that is not a good engagement, they want to come from all sides, that's the whole design of it, to swarm you. Should I just say now that I lost to a Terran player who knew how to split his Marines against my Banelings/Infestors and basically negating most of my units? It requires more APM, yes, but MKP can seemingly pull it off with ease. Quoting so that it doesn't get edited away. You, sir, have just admitted to the fact that this buff only helps Zergs who don't know what they're doing (low leaguers) and Zergs who play overly greedy (Idra). You also just re-asserted that Creep Spread is fine. It isn't. I see no reason to agree with you that coating over half the map by 10 minutes is fine. Creep Spread in general might be fine, but that speed certainly isn't. Learn to simcity your base, make a Spine and a Couple of Queens, and you'll be safe against standard Hellion openers, which were so common you barely even needed to scout them. If it was an all-in, so what? It's supposed to be hard to hold; it's an ALL-IN. Besides, you got nitro Overlords now so all-ins are easy to scout. No need to simultaneously buff the Queen. When Hellion openers cost tech, delay Siege Mode, and imply a lower Marine count, you should have to make a Spine and some units to defend them. WTF? How is this imbalanced? Is zerg just supposed to be allowed to get 80 Drones without fear of anything?
- I hope this does not make a huge post (due to number of quotes), but yes, Queen spread from 3-4 Queens can be ridiculously fast. Let me say that I have tried playing Terran (Protoss was my main race, later started learning Zerg from scratch), and I hated not being present on the map with either an Observer or Creep+Overlords. I really wanted just to have a normal detection unit instead of Raven/Scans, but I just couldn't cope with it. And the fact that I was not very good at microing Marines. The point why I mentioned that is that I understand where this is coming from, I think if Terran had an Observer of their own, the Creep wouldn't be that much of a problem. When I played Protoss in Diamond league, I was under the impression that a Hatchery can support 1 Queen, Lair 2, etc etc. You get my gist. Of course, that is not the case. And yes, again, Creep spread with 3-4-5 Queens can be ridiculous and annoying to deal with, but overall, Creep spread is fine, creep receding however is not.
- You cannot really simcity as Zerg in the early game(unless you are referring to DPS simcity, 2 Queens and a Spine near a choke point or something), Zerg does not build THAT many buildings before the 10min mark, and when the Hellion opener comes(7-8min, 8 is even super late, but just taking that into consideration since you mentioned the lower leagues), rarely does any Zerg have 2 Evo chambers out, and it takes 3 hits if I recall (or maybe 2) from the Spine Crawler to kill a Hellion, and Terran usually come with 4-6 Hellions nowadays, so I cannot rely on a couple of Spine Crawlers to keep my Drones perfectly safe (remember, your Hellions eat dem Drones).
- And it is a standard for Terran nowadays to be overly greedy. Can't remember if I saw a game without a 3rd OC in the main.
- Indeed, that is the whole point, the Zerg is DEFENDING, they need to have some advantage (talking about range of Queens now), that's the whole point, and Zerg cannot have a wall up by that time (although, walling as Zerg is really stabbing yourself in the back).
Overall, I enjoy the discussion as I come from WoW forums and the arguments there are "omg, tsg s9 hero noob, omg heroic gear rmp so easy, triple dps scum - which I agree with, omg l2p noob" etc. No hard feelings, and let me rephrase my statement: Creep spread is fine, creep receding is not, creep spread with 3-5 Queens can get out of hand easily, but so does anything in this game once a certain unit reaches critical amount (Siege Tank lines, Mutalisks, Stalkers, etc).
- Again, it might be a good time to start thinking other openers other than Hellion ones (hence we are getting the new expansion in the somewhat near future, new meta game). I am not a professional, but I believe everyone could see how much trouble Hellion openers were giving to pro players (it is much easier to see something rather than to play it obviously).
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Now that we're seeing bigger maps they can also revert that "5 second build time increase to barracks". And yeah the Queen buff was probably the dumbest buff Blizzard ever gave to a race thus far.
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On June 18 2012 03:07 ysnake wrote:
Don't tell me to put Spine Crawlers(plural), because they cost Drones+stationary defense.
Yes, I believe a zerg should be left making drones till minute twelve untouched. Of course, the zerg shouldn't do anything to be left alone, no spine crawlers, no zerglings should be needed to counter hellions. God forbid you made a roach and chase d the 4 hellions away.
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On June 18 2012 03:48 sieksdekciw wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 03:07 ysnake wrote:
Don't tell me to put Spine Crawlers(plural), because they cost Drones+stationary defense.
Yes, I believe a zerg should be left making drones till minute twelve untouched. Of course, the zerg shouldn't do anything to be left alone, no spine crawlers, no zerglings should be needed to counter hellions. God forbid you made a roach and chase d the 4 hellions away.
How do I stop 4gate aggression after we both FE as terran?
You better not tell me to build bunkers...
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On June 18 2012 03:54 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 03:48 sieksdekciw wrote:On June 18 2012 03:07 ysnake wrote:
Don't tell me to put Spine Crawlers(plural), because they cost Drones+stationary defense.
Yes, I believe a zerg should be left making drones till minute twelve untouched. Of course, the zerg shouldn't do anything to be left alone, no spine crawlers, no zerglings should be needed to counter hellions. God forbid you made a roach and chase d the 4 hellions away. How do I stop 4gate aggression after we both FE as terran? You better not tell me to build bunkers...
It's not like you need more than one Crawler against the old Reactor Hellion expand anyway. Evo that you would build anyway near the choke, two Queens you're absolutely going to build ASAP just for production anyway, one spine. Perhaps a couple sets of lings. Due diligence done. Total larva "wasted" solely on defense: 2. Then it's all a matter of inching that spine forward.
Easy enough. Then again, it's not pressing sdddddd so I guess it's imbalanced as hell. Heaven forbid neutering a fast tech build requires some investment -_-'
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On June 18 2012 03:54 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 03:48 sieksdekciw wrote:On June 18 2012 03:07 ysnake wrote:
Don't tell me to put Spine Crawlers(plural), because they cost Drones+stationary defense.
Yes, I believe a zerg should be left making drones till minute twelve untouched. Of course, the zerg shouldn't do anything to be left alone, no spine crawlers, no zerglings should be needed to counter hellions. God forbid you made a roach and chase d the 4 hellions away. How do I stop 4gate aggression after we both FE as terran? You better not tell me to build bunkers...
Sad thing is that we see lately in games, tosses 7-8-9-11 gate, and there is NO amount of bunkers that can stop this. AND you have to surround your bunkers with scvs, AND you are 10 scvs behind anyway because of chronoboost, AND there is no way to scout it but dumb luck cause stalkers should and will stop any scout, so you have to scan, but he could be hiding buildings. But that's how the game is, I guess. Zergs demanded to be left alone to drone, Blizz listened, now the basic economics unit of zerg is also an inpenetrable defense fortress with crazy amount of hp, anti air, vision spreader, can heal buildings/units, and boosts production. Sounds legit.
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IMO, keep queen range and ovie buff. Make ghosts 150/75. The snipe change was already so outrageous that it completely removed any semblance of ghost play before the late mid-game. Ghost openings are sorely needed in all of T's matchups, and should be more prevalent in mid game compositions. Snipes would work wonders against mass queen gasless expanding, but they are just too damn expensive.
Oh and nerf the fungal growth root length (not damage). Removing the option to retreat after a single fungal (and subsequent chain) is redonkulous.
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On June 18 2012 03:46 ysnake wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 03:11 Shiori wrote:On June 18 2012 03:07 ysnake wrote:On June 18 2012 02:48 Shiori wrote:On June 18 2012 02:38 ysnake wrote:On June 18 2012 00:55 Noocta wrote:
Even if I know Select didn't play well, the NASL match SeleCt vs Ret on Antiga was pretty funny to look at.
Ret basicly opened 6 queens fast third bases, make nothing but 2 lings, drones up to 70 drones.
Seelect did a heavy agression build, 2 factory blue flame hellions, killed 15+ drones,
Ret was basicly making more drones during the time, letting the queens kill everything.
After the attack, the creep ( cross map antiga ) was at the entrance of SeleCt base. SeleCt was unable to take his fourth, even after 3 scans he could not kill all the tumors. :<
Not saying it's a balance problem, but damn Queens are strong as hell. And since they don't cost larvaes, it change everything in the way Zerg is meant to be played ( choose between units and drones ) It was a good response from the Zerg, he builds only Hellions? I'm going to go with what counters Hellions "Be more greedy and expand with Queens" should not be what counters Hellions. Creep spread is FINE,
No it's not. I don't care how much APM it takes. If you can get Creep halfway across Antiga Shipyard before 10 minutes, it's a problem. Let me just disprove this "it's hard so it's fair" argument right now. If there were a strategy that automatically won the game but required 400 APM, it would still be imbalanced. Why? Because it would be an auto-win. Similarly, while Creep may require some APM, it's certainly very easy for top level players like DRG to do, and the advantage gained is HUGE. You are talking about imbalance and yet you say Hellion openers cannot hinder a Zerg enough? They can kill so many drones if you catch the Zerg who didn't scout it that is completely imbalanced if you look at it in such way. Let's presume you managed to kill 8 Drones (lower league players just frantically click all their Drones away which puts them in a line, easy snipe for Hellions), that's 8 larvae the Zerg player needs to spend on making Drones to be back where he was at, when that could've been 16 Zerglings. I saw this on Idra's stream a long time ago and been using it ever since, as soon as I poke with my Zerglings and see Hellions I immediatelly make 4 control groups just for Drones at my Natural, so that I can send them in all directions. Quite frankly, the only units a Zerg can have at the stage when Hellions come are Zerglings (usually without speed), and Hellions counter them. Zerg needs something to defend against that, remember, Blizzard was opting for either giving Queens range buff or 50 Energy when they spawn, because Hellion openers were so good as easily executed. Don't tell me to put Spine Crawlers(plural), because they cost Drones+stationary defense. Like I said, Creep Spread is fine, Creep RECEDING is not. You are basically arguing over mechanics of the game that is similar to people crying about Protoss warp-ins. The Zerg player NEEDS to be on the map, if a Zerg attacks you just straight on, that is not a good engagement, they want to come from all sides, that's the whole design of it, to swarm you. Should I just say now that I lost to a Terran player who knew how to split his Marines against my Banelings/Infestors and basically negating most of my units? It requires more APM, yes, but MKP can seemingly pull it off with ease. Quoting so that it doesn't get edited away. You, sir, have just admitted to the fact that this buff only helps Zergs who don't know what they're doing (low leaguers) and Zergs who play overly greedy (Idra). You also just re-asserted that Creep Spread is fine. It isn't. I see no reason to agree with you that coating over half the map by 10 minutes is fine. Creep Spread in general might be fine, but that speed certainly isn't. Learn to simcity your base, make a Spine and a Couple of Queens, and you'll be safe against standard Hellion openers, which were so common you barely even needed to scout them. If it was an all-in, so what? It's supposed to be hard to hold; it's an ALL-IN. Besides, you got nitro Overlords now so all-ins are easy to scout. No need to simultaneously buff the Queen. When Hellion openers cost tech, delay Siege Mode, and imply a lower Marine count, you should have to make a Spine and some units to defend them. WTF? How is this imbalanced? Is zerg just supposed to be allowed to get 80 Drones without fear of anything? - I hope this does not make a huge post (due to number of quotes), but yes, Queen spread from 3-4 Queens can be ridiculously fast. Let me say that I have tried playing Terran (Protoss was my main race, later started learning Zerg from scratch), and I hated not being present on the map with either an Observer or Creep+Overlords. I really wanted just to have a normal detection unit instead of Raven/Scans, but I just couldn't cope with it. And the fact that I was not very good at microing Marines. The point why I mentioned that is that I understand where this is coming from, I think if Terran had an Observer of their own, the Creep wouldn't be that much of a problem. When I played Protoss in Diamond league, I was under the impression that a Hatchery can support 1 Queen, Lair 2, etc etc. You get my gist. Of course, that is not the case. And yes, again, Creep spread with 3-4-5 Queens can be ridiculous and annoying to deal with, but overall, Creep spread is fine, creep receding however is not. - You cannot really simcity as Zerg in the early game(unless you are referring to DPS simcity, 2 Queens and a Spine near a choke point or something), Zerg does not build THAT many buildings before the 10min mark, and when the Hellion opener comes(7-8min, 8 is even super late, but just taking that into consideration since you mentioned the lower leagues), rarely does any Zerg have 2 Evo chambers out, and it takes 3 hits if I recall (or maybe 2) from the Spine Crawler to kill a Hellion, and Terran usually come with 4-6 Hellions nowadays, so I cannot rely on a couple of Spine Crawlers to keep my Drones perfectly safe (remember, your Hellions eat dem Drones). - And it is a standard for Terran nowadays to be overly greedy. Can't remember if I saw a game without a 3rd OC in the main. - Indeed, that is the whole point, the Zerg is DEFENDING, they need to have some advantage (talking about range of Queens now), that's the whole point, and Zerg cannot have a wall up by that time (although, walling as Zerg is really stabbing yourself in the back). Overall, I enjoy the discussion as I come from WoW forums and the arguments there are "omg, tsg s9 hero noob, omg heroic gear rmp so easy, triple dps scum - which I agree with, omg l2p noob" etc. No hard feelings, and let me rephrase my statement: Creep spread is fine, creep receding is not, creep spread with 3-5 Queens can get out of hand easily, but so does anything in this game once a certain unit reaches critical amount (Siege Tank lines, Mutalisks, Stalkers, etc). - Again, it might be a good time to start thinking other openers other than Hellion ones (hence we are getting the new expansion in the somewhat near future, new meta game). I am not a professional, but I believe everyone could see how much trouble Hellion openers were giving to pro players (it is much easier to see something rather than to play it obviously).
I have to agree with this guy, also with the part of the mentality of people posting in this thread. Denying Creep is like denying a whole macro mechanic, why cant zerg deny scans or mules? Queens arent faster than hellions so you still get map control with your safe build. When you want an advantage play more risky with 3 oc's or pressure builds, zerg has to do it too. Long time ago since I saw a Zerg win with 14/14.
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On June 18 2012 04:45 D4V3Z02 wrote:
I have to agree with this guy, also with the part of the mentality of people posting in this thread. Denying Creep is like denying a whole macro mechanic, why cant zerg deny scans or mules? Queens arent faster than hellions so you still get map control with your safe build. When you want an advantage play more risky with 3 oc's or pressure builds, zerg has to do it too. Long time ago since I saw a Zerg win with 14/14.
You realize the 4 reactor hellion expand WAS a pressure build? One that involved going into gas? It's purpose just happened to be "slowdown" not damage as such. It's not like Hellions or (especially) early Factories are free. It stands to reason you'd have to invest in troops to shake off a light contain.
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On June 18 2012 04:45 D4V3Z02 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 03:46 ysnake wrote:On June 18 2012 03:11 Shiori wrote:On June 18 2012 03:07 ysnake wrote:On June 18 2012 02:48 Shiori wrote:On June 18 2012 02:38 ysnake wrote:On June 18 2012 00:55 Noocta wrote:
Even if I know Select didn't play well, the NASL match SeleCt vs Ret on Antiga was pretty funny to look at.
Ret basicly opened 6 queens fast third bases, make nothing but 2 lings, drones up to 70 drones.
Seelect did a heavy agression build, 2 factory blue flame hellions, killed 15+ drones,
Ret was basicly making more drones during the time, letting the queens kill everything.
After the attack, the creep ( cross map antiga ) was at the entrance of SeleCt base. SeleCt was unable to take his fourth, even after 3 scans he could not kill all the tumors. :<
Not saying it's a balance problem, but damn Queens are strong as hell. And since they don't cost larvaes, it change everything in the way Zerg is meant to be played ( choose between units and drones ) It was a good response from the Zerg, he builds only Hellions? I'm going to go with what counters Hellions "Be more greedy and expand with Queens" should not be what counters Hellions. Creep spread is FINE,
No it's not. I don't care how much APM it takes. If you can get Creep halfway across Antiga Shipyard before 10 minutes, it's a problem. Let me just disprove this "it's hard so it's fair" argument right now. If there were a strategy that automatically won the game but required 400 APM, it would still be imbalanced. Why? Because it would be an auto-win. Similarly, while Creep may require some APM, it's certainly very easy for top level players like DRG to do, and the advantage gained is HUGE. You are talking about imbalance and yet you say Hellion openers cannot hinder a Zerg enough? They can kill so many drones if you catch the Zerg who didn't scout it that is completely imbalanced if you look at it in such way. Let's presume you managed to kill 8 Drones (lower league players just frantically click all their Drones away which puts them in a line, easy snipe for Hellions), that's 8 larvae the Zerg player needs to spend on making Drones to be back where he was at, when that could've been 16 Zerglings. I saw this on Idra's stream a long time ago and been using it ever since, as soon as I poke with my Zerglings and see Hellions I immediatelly make 4 control groups just for Drones at my Natural, so that I can send them in all directions. Quite frankly, the only units a Zerg can have at the stage when Hellions come are Zerglings (usually without speed), and Hellions counter them. Zerg needs something to defend against that, remember, Blizzard was opting for either giving Queens range buff or 50 Energy when they spawn, because Hellion openers were so good as easily executed. Don't tell me to put Spine Crawlers(plural), because they cost Drones+stationary defense. Like I said, Creep Spread is fine, Creep RECEDING is not. You are basically arguing over mechanics of the game that is similar to people crying about Protoss warp-ins. The Zerg player NEEDS to be on the map, if a Zerg attacks you just straight on, that is not a good engagement, they want to come from all sides, that's the whole design of it, to swarm you. Should I just say now that I lost to a Terran player who knew how to split his Marines against my Banelings/Infestors and basically negating most of my units? It requires more APM, yes, but MKP can seemingly pull it off with ease. Quoting so that it doesn't get edited away. You, sir, have just admitted to the fact that this buff only helps Zergs who don't know what they're doing (low leaguers) and Zergs who play overly greedy (Idra). You also just re-asserted that Creep Spread is fine. It isn't. I see no reason to agree with you that coating over half the map by 10 minutes is fine. Creep Spread in general might be fine, but that speed certainly isn't. Learn to simcity your base, make a Spine and a Couple of Queens, and you'll be safe against standard Hellion openers, which were so common you barely even needed to scout them. If it was an all-in, so what? It's supposed to be hard to hold; it's an ALL-IN. Besides, you got nitro Overlords now so all-ins are easy to scout. No need to simultaneously buff the Queen. When Hellion openers cost tech, delay Siege Mode, and imply a lower Marine count, you should have to make a Spine and some units to defend them. WTF? How is this imbalanced? Is zerg just supposed to be allowed to get 80 Drones without fear of anything? - I hope this does not make a huge post (due to number of quotes), but yes, Queen spread from 3-4 Queens can be ridiculously fast. Let me say that I have tried playing Terran (Protoss was my main race, later started learning Zerg from scratch), and I hated not being present on the map with either an Observer or Creep+Overlords. I really wanted just to have a normal detection unit instead of Raven/Scans, but I just couldn't cope with it. And the fact that I was not very good at microing Marines. The point why I mentioned that is that I understand where this is coming from, I think if Terran had an Observer of their own, the Creep wouldn't be that much of a problem. When I played Protoss in Diamond league, I was under the impression that a Hatchery can support 1 Queen, Lair 2, etc etc. You get my gist. Of course, that is not the case. And yes, again, Creep spread with 3-4-5 Queens can be ridiculous and annoying to deal with, but overall, Creep spread is fine, creep receding however is not. - You cannot really simcity as Zerg in the early game(unless you are referring to DPS simcity, 2 Queens and a Spine near a choke point or something), Zerg does not build THAT many buildings before the 10min mark, and when the Hellion opener comes(7-8min, 8 is even super late, but just taking that into consideration since you mentioned the lower leagues), rarely does any Zerg have 2 Evo chambers out, and it takes 3 hits if I recall (or maybe 2) from the Spine Crawler to kill a Hellion, and Terran usually come with 4-6 Hellions nowadays, so I cannot rely on a couple of Spine Crawlers to keep my Drones perfectly safe (remember, your Hellions eat dem Drones). - And it is a standard for Terran nowadays to be overly greedy. Can't remember if I saw a game without a 3rd OC in the main. - Indeed, that is the whole point, the Zerg is DEFENDING, they need to have some advantage (talking about range of Queens now), that's the whole point, and Zerg cannot have a wall up by that time (although, walling as Zerg is really stabbing yourself in the back). Overall, I enjoy the discussion as I come from WoW forums and the arguments there are "omg, tsg s9 hero noob, omg heroic gear rmp so easy, triple dps scum - which I agree with, omg l2p noob" etc. No hard feelings, and let me rephrase my statement: Creep spread is fine, creep receding is not, creep spread with 3-5 Queens can get out of hand easily, but so does anything in this game once a certain unit reaches critical amount (Siege Tank lines, Mutalisks, Stalkers, etc). - Again, it might be a good time to start thinking other openers other than Hellion ones (hence we are getting the new expansion in the somewhat near future, new meta game). I am not a professional, but I believe everyone could see how much trouble Hellion openers were giving to pro players (it is much easier to see something rather than to play it obviously). I have to agree with this guy, also with the part of the mentality of people posting in this thread. Denying Creep is like denying a whole macro mechanic, why cant zerg deny scans or mules? Queens arent faster than hellions so you still get map control with your safe build. When you want an advantage play more risky with 3 oc's or pressure builds, zerg has to do it too. Long time ago since I saw a Zerg win with 14/14.
Well, unless I don't understand TvZ at all, denying creep spread early on is a major part of what we call map control in this matchup. Zerg spreads creep freely past the middle of the map, and Terran still has map control with hellions? I beg to differ...
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Nononono. You have it totally wrong. Map control is keeping track of the creep as it comes knocking on your front door while I press qqqqqq sdddd srrrrr.
(This is incidentally also the definition of a balanced and healthy matchup.)
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EPT
