I know this is going to sounds a bit crazy, but hear me out.
Make protoss warp ins at pylons cost energy on the nexus, you can warp in units at a nexus cost free. What would this do you might ask....
1. Fix PvP allowing the defender to have an advantage by being able to chronoboost gateways where the aggressive player cannot.
2. No more forcefields. I believe FF was added to the game because pvp was broken - no defenders advantage. If there is no FF protoss gateway units could actually be good units before upgrades (Stalkers/Zealots) - I think this would help balance PvT making protoss and terran more equal in the early game, and changing the power of warp in pylons dramatically. FF has always been the bane of zerg. No FF we could see a lot more variety of strategy in the matchup because units like banelings, zerglings become more powerful. Also lowers the effectiveness of units like collosus.
3. Great synergy with new unit mothership core (recharge energy on nexus)
- I'm a protoss player so don't tell me this is a balance whine, just tired of people trying to take legitimate wins away from me because i play with the "broken race" . /rant
On June 14 2012 07:16 Shiori wrote: I guarantee good players like DRG weren't taking "massive damage" from Hellions.
You have no idea... Go watch game 3 of blizzard cup finals against MMA. Arena of Legends finals against MKP...
just to name a few. DRG loses to hellions more times than I can count. and I run his damn fanclub!
So because DRG loses to a Code S winner (MMA) and a crazy-good TvZ player (MKP) on certain occasions that they use Hellions, the strategy deserves to be nerfed? Look at how long ago those events were. Look at how recently the Queen was buffed. I don't recall the Hellion making it impossible for DRG to compete with MKP at the last few MLGs, despite the latter opening Hellions almost every game. Hell, I don't even recall DRG coming anywhere close to losing to them.
It's entirely reasonable that an opening should have a small chance of doing a lot of damage if the opposing player screws up. Case in point, PvZ: if I fail to simcity correctly and scout correctly, I leave myself open to Baneling Busts, Roach Rushes, and Ling Runbys. I see no reason why Zerg can't do this against Hellion openers rather than just playing standard and automatically fending them off.
I dont think you understand the point of the buff. Go watch the david kim interview by TL posted yesterday. DK said that hellions were not unbeatable, but they were too strong for their costs. They control too much of the map for basically a very cheap investment. If you don't defend perfectly, you lose the game like DRG did. The risk/reward ratio was too lopsided in Terran's favor.
Also, saying that losing to good players is an acceptable excuse to have an overpowered strategy is a really bad argument....
First off, the MU was considered the most balanced one before the lastest patch. A LOT more people are complaing now, than before. Creep spread is huge in TvZ, and hellions were basically the only way to deny it, even tho it might have been too great of a risk/reward in terran's favor, 4 range queens would have been interesting. Zergs were doing just fine vs reactor hellion builds, before patch it only delayed ur creep for a short period of time tbh.
And wtf? Making hellions is an OP strat?
yet blizzard claims it's the most balanced it's ever been.
On June 14 2012 10:01 Shiori wrote:
On June 14 2012 09:54 neoghaleon55 wrote:
On June 14 2012 09:48 Shiori wrote:
On June 14 2012 09:45 neoghaleon55 wrote:
On June 14 2012 07:16 Shiori wrote: I guarantee good players like DRG weren't taking "massive damage" from Hellions.
You have no idea... Go watch game 3 of blizzard cup finals against MMA. Arena of Legends finals against MKP...
just to name a few. DRG loses to hellions more times than I can count. and I run his damn fanclub!
So because DRG loses to a Code S winner (MMA) and a crazy-good TvZ player (MKP) on certain occasions that they use Hellions, the strategy deserves to be nerfed? Look at how long ago those events were. Look at how recently the Queen was buffed. I don't recall the Hellion making it impossible for DRG to compete with MKP at the last few MLGs, despite the latter opening Hellions almost every game. Hell, I don't even recall DRG coming anywhere close to losing to them.
It's entirely reasonable that an opening should have a small chance of doing a lot of damage if the opposing player screws up. Case in point, PvZ: if I fail to simcity correctly and scout correctly, I leave myself open to Baneling Busts, Roach Rushes, and Ling Runbys. I see no reason why Zerg can't do this against Hellion openers rather than just playing standard and automatically fending them off.
I dont think you understand the point of the buff. Go watch the david kim interview by TL posted yesterday. DK said that hellions were not unbeatable, but they were too strong for their costs. They control too much of the map for basically a very cheap investment. If you don't defend perfectly, you lose the game like DRG did. The risk/reward ratio was too lopsided in Terran's favor.
Also, saying that losing to good players is an acceptable excuse to have an overpowered strategy is a really bad argument....
You're blinded by your Zerg bias, here. Hellions were a safe opener that allowed Terrans to delay (not deny) Creep Spreading and retain mapcontrol until Speedlings were out en masse. That's good because now it's essentially impossible for Terran to get any map control early. It's also the case now that Creep is over halfway across the map by 10 minutes, even if the Terran opens Hellions. If Hellion openers were overpowered, then the current state of ZvT is flat-out broken.
oh so now you speak on the terrans behalf? you don't even play their race, you really hate zerg don't you? But what would you prefer? queen buff or increase the cost of the hellion? because that's what it came down to, the hellion COST for COST had way more reward than risk because they were fast, and a simple mistake like moving your drones away from the mineral line automatically lines them up for the hellions. Also DK stated that they wanted to see more diverse strategies and openings which they started to see after the queen buff. so tell me mr. terran, what was so diverse about TvZ before the queen nerf? virtually nothing, terrans 90% of the time opened reactor hellion.
and like I said before, blizzard has numbers we don't have access to, if a win percentage spikes, we'll know about it.
But realistically, I wouldn't mind a creep nerf, just don't revert the queen range, I don't think blizzard can afford to mess with people by flip flopping.
So it's not fine for zerg to make a simple mistake and lose the game because of it, but how about terran or protoss? Terran clumps up marines and a single fungal can end the game, seems like a very simple mistake to lose the game on. How about protoss, one missed forcefield and lings stream in and kill every probe. Why is it ok for them to lose to a simple mistake but not alright if zerg loses because of a simple mistake?
I honestly don't see a game where one fungal actually changes everything cuz marines cost 50 minerals and there is usually a non-stop stream of them. Sure I've seen terran lose his whole army because he wasn't sieged but that's not the same thing as losing your whole mineral line to a few hellions.
The game should be about skill and risk/reward, I definitely thought hellions were too good for their cost and offered more reward than risk. And the thing about hellions is you don't have to do damage, you just have to contain, deny the 3rd base as long as possible and scout any all-ins. Meanwhile, you are sitting on a greedy 3 CC double engi build with nothing but 1 factory and 1 rax which by all standards should be super unsafe but before the queen buff it really wasn't. Yes roach/bane counters that greedy shit, but that's the nature of SC2, shit counters other shit, but for some reason every damn terran in the GSL was doing this reactor hellion 3 CC 2 engi build because it was the fucking best build on the planet, now it's a risky build because hellions don't automatically pay for themselves.
On June 14 2012 07:16 Shiori wrote: I guarantee good players like DRG weren't taking "massive damage" from Hellions.
You have no idea... Go watch game 3 of blizzard cup finals against MMA. Arena of Legends finals against MKP...
just to name a few. DRG loses to hellions more times than I can count. and I run his damn fanclub!
So because DRG loses to a Code S winner (MMA) and a crazy-good TvZ player (MKP) on certain occasions that they use Hellions, the strategy deserves to be nerfed? Look at how long ago those events were. Look at how recently the Queen was buffed. I don't recall the Hellion making it impossible for DRG to compete with MKP at the last few MLGs, despite the latter opening Hellions almost every game. Hell, I don't even recall DRG coming anywhere close to losing to them.
It's entirely reasonable that an opening should have a small chance of doing a lot of damage if the opposing player screws up. Case in point, PvZ: if I fail to simcity correctly and scout correctly, I leave myself open to Baneling Busts, Roach Rushes, and Ling Runbys. I see no reason why Zerg can't do this against Hellion openers rather than just playing standard and automatically fending them off.
I dont think you understand the point of the buff. Go watch the david kim interview by TL posted yesterday. DK said that hellions were not unbeatable, but they were too strong for their costs. They control too much of the map for basically a very cheap investment. If you don't defend perfectly, you lose the game like DRG did. The risk/reward ratio was too lopsided in Terran's favor.
Also, saying that losing to good players is an acceptable excuse to have an overpowered strategy is a really bad argument....
First off, the MU was considered the most balanced one before the lastest patch. A LOT more people are complaing now, than before. Creep spread is huge in TvZ, and hellions were basically the only way to deny it, even tho it might have been too great of a risk/reward in terran's favor, 4 range queens would have been interesting. Zergs were doing just fine vs reactor hellion builds, before patch it only delayed ur creep for a short period of time tbh.
And wtf? Making hellions is an OP strat?
yet blizzard claims it's the most balanced it's ever been.
On June 14 2012 10:01 Shiori wrote:
On June 14 2012 09:54 neoghaleon55 wrote:
On June 14 2012 09:48 Shiori wrote:
On June 14 2012 09:45 neoghaleon55 wrote:
On June 14 2012 07:16 Shiori wrote: I guarantee good players like DRG weren't taking "massive damage" from Hellions.
You have no idea... Go watch game 3 of blizzard cup finals against MMA. Arena of Legends finals against MKP...
just to name a few. DRG loses to hellions more times than I can count. and I run his damn fanclub!
So because DRG loses to a Code S winner (MMA) and a crazy-good TvZ player (MKP) on certain occasions that they use Hellions, the strategy deserves to be nerfed? Look at how long ago those events were. Look at how recently the Queen was buffed. I don't recall the Hellion making it impossible for DRG to compete with MKP at the last few MLGs, despite the latter opening Hellions almost every game. Hell, I don't even recall DRG coming anywhere close to losing to them.
It's entirely reasonable that an opening should have a small chance of doing a lot of damage if the opposing player screws up. Case in point, PvZ: if I fail to simcity correctly and scout correctly, I leave myself open to Baneling Busts, Roach Rushes, and Ling Runbys. I see no reason why Zerg can't do this against Hellion openers rather than just playing standard and automatically fending them off.
I dont think you understand the point of the buff. Go watch the david kim interview by TL posted yesterday. DK said that hellions were not unbeatable, but they were too strong for their costs. They control too much of the map for basically a very cheap investment. If you don't defend perfectly, you lose the game like DRG did. The risk/reward ratio was too lopsided in Terran's favor.
Also, saying that losing to good players is an acceptable excuse to have an overpowered strategy is a really bad argument....
You're blinded by your Zerg bias, here. Hellions were a safe opener that allowed Terrans to delay (not deny) Creep Spreading and retain mapcontrol until Speedlings were out en masse. That's good because now it's essentially impossible for Terran to get any map control early. It's also the case now that Creep is over halfway across the map by 10 minutes, even if the Terran opens Hellions. If Hellion openers were overpowered, then the current state of ZvT is flat-out broken.
oh so now you speak on the terrans behalf? you don't even play their race, you really hate zerg don't you? But what would you prefer? queen buff or increase the cost of the hellion? because that's what it came down to, the hellion COST for COST had way more reward than risk because they were fast, and a simple mistake like moving your drones away from the mineral line automatically lines them up for the hellions. Also DK stated that they wanted to see more diverse strategies and openings which they started to see after the queen buff. so tell me mr. terran, what was so diverse about TvZ before the queen nerf? virtually nothing, terrans 90% of the time opened reactor hellion.
and like I said before, blizzard has numbers we don't have access to, if a win percentage spikes, we'll know about it.
But realistically, I wouldn't mind a creep nerf, just don't revert the queen range, I don't think blizzard can afford to mess with people by flip flopping.
So it's not fine for zerg to make a simple mistake and lose the game because of it, but how about terran or protoss? Terran clumps up marines and a single fungal can end the game, seems like a very simple mistake to lose the game on. How about protoss, one missed forcefield and lings stream in and kill every probe. Why is it ok for them to lose to a simple mistake but not alright if zerg loses because of a simple mistake?
I honestly don't see a game where one fungal actually changes everything cuz marines cost 50 minerals and there is usually a non-stop stream of them. Sure I've seen terran lose his whole army because he wasn't sieged but that's not the same thing as losing your whole mineral line to a few hellions.
The game should be about skill and risk/reward, I definitely thought hellions were too good for their cost and offered more reward than risk. And the thing about hellions is you don't have to do damage, you just have to contain, deny the 3rd base as long as possible and scout any all-ins. Meanwhile, you are sitting on a greedy 3 CC double engi build with nothing but 1 factory and 1 rax which by all standards should be super unsafe but before the queen buff it really wasn't. Yes roach/bane counters that greedy shit, but that's the nature of SC2, shit counters other shit, but for some reason every damn terran in the GSL was doing this reactor hellion 3 CC 2 engi build because it was the fucking best build on the planet, now it's a risky build because hellions don't automatically pay for themselves.
Excellent post, emc. Before the patch, I really hated how terrans could option select the following off reactor hellions, with Zerg having to absolutely guess what build it was or auto die.
This has been a problem since last year at MLG anaheim, but blizzard took its sweet time to collect the necessary data before the use the nerf/buff hammer.
emc, your arguments changed from "hellion opening OP" to "hellion opening unforgiving" to "hellion opening OP in bronze" to "force terrans to be creative" to "blizzard does balance changes the wrong way" just so you can continue justifing a patch change.
No offence mate, but you sound like Zerg bias is all that is driving you in this discussion.
On June 14 2012 07:16 Shiori wrote: I guarantee good players like DRG weren't taking "massive damage" from Hellions.
You have no idea... Go watch game 3 of blizzard cup finals against MMA. Arena of Legends finals against MKP...
just to name a few. DRG loses to hellions more times than I can count. and I run his damn fanclub!
So because DRG loses to a Code S winner (MMA) and a crazy-good TvZ player (MKP) on certain occasions that they use Hellions, the strategy deserves to be nerfed? Look at how long ago those events were. Look at how recently the Queen was buffed. I don't recall the Hellion making it impossible for DRG to compete with MKP at the last few MLGs, despite the latter opening Hellions almost every game. Hell, I don't even recall DRG coming anywhere close to losing to them.
It's entirely reasonable that an opening should have a small chance of doing a lot of damage if the opposing player screws up. Case in point, PvZ: if I fail to simcity correctly and scout correctly, I leave myself open to Baneling Busts, Roach Rushes, and Ling Runbys. I see no reason why Zerg can't do this against Hellion openers rather than just playing standard and automatically fending them off.
I dont think you understand the point of the buff. Go watch the david kim interview by TL posted yesterday. DK said that hellions were not unbeatable, but they were too strong for their costs. They control too much of the map for basically a very cheap investment. If you don't defend perfectly, you lose the game like DRG did. The risk/reward ratio was too lopsided in Terran's favor.
Also, saying that losing to good players is an acceptable excuse to have an overpowered strategy is a really bad argument....
First off, the MU was considered the most balanced one before the lastest patch. A LOT more people are complaing now, than before. Creep spread is huge in TvZ, and hellions were basically the only way to deny it, even tho it might have been too great of a risk/reward in terran's favor, 4 range queens would have been interesting. Zergs were doing just fine vs reactor hellion builds, before patch it only delayed ur creep for a short period of time tbh.
And wtf? Making hellions is an OP strat?
yet blizzard claims it's the most balanced it's ever been.
On June 14 2012 10:01 Shiori wrote:
On June 14 2012 09:54 neoghaleon55 wrote:
On June 14 2012 09:48 Shiori wrote:
On June 14 2012 09:45 neoghaleon55 wrote:
On June 14 2012 07:16 Shiori wrote: I guarantee good players like DRG weren't taking "massive damage" from Hellions.
You have no idea... Go watch game 3 of blizzard cup finals against MMA. Arena of Legends finals against MKP...
just to name a few. DRG loses to hellions more times than I can count. and I run his damn fanclub!
So because DRG loses to a Code S winner (MMA) and a crazy-good TvZ player (MKP) on certain occasions that they use Hellions, the strategy deserves to be nerfed? Look at how long ago those events were. Look at how recently the Queen was buffed. I don't recall the Hellion making it impossible for DRG to compete with MKP at the last few MLGs, despite the latter opening Hellions almost every game. Hell, I don't even recall DRG coming anywhere close to losing to them.
It's entirely reasonable that an opening should have a small chance of doing a lot of damage if the opposing player screws up. Case in point, PvZ: if I fail to simcity correctly and scout correctly, I leave myself open to Baneling Busts, Roach Rushes, and Ling Runbys. I see no reason why Zerg can't do this against Hellion openers rather than just playing standard and automatically fending them off.
I dont think you understand the point of the buff. Go watch the david kim interview by TL posted yesterday. DK said that hellions were not unbeatable, but they were too strong for their costs. They control too much of the map for basically a very cheap investment. If you don't defend perfectly, you lose the game like DRG did. The risk/reward ratio was too lopsided in Terran's favor.
Also, saying that losing to good players is an acceptable excuse to have an overpowered strategy is a really bad argument....
You're blinded by your Zerg bias, here. Hellions were a safe opener that allowed Terrans to delay (not deny) Creep Spreading and retain mapcontrol until Speedlings were out en masse. That's good because now it's essentially impossible for Terran to get any map control early. It's also the case now that Creep is over halfway across the map by 10 minutes, even if the Terran opens Hellions. If Hellion openers were overpowered, then the current state of ZvT is flat-out broken.
oh so now you speak on the terrans behalf? you don't even play their race, you really hate zerg don't you? But what would you prefer? queen buff or increase the cost of the hellion? because that's what it came down to, the hellion COST for COST had way more reward than risk because they were fast, and a simple mistake like moving your drones away from the mineral line automatically lines them up for the hellions. Also DK stated that they wanted to see more diverse strategies and openings which they started to see after the queen buff. so tell me mr. terran, what was so diverse about TvZ before the queen nerf? virtually nothing, terrans 90% of the time opened reactor hellion.
and like I said before, blizzard has numbers we don't have access to, if a win percentage spikes, we'll know about it.
But realistically, I wouldn't mind a creep nerf, just don't revert the queen range, I don't think blizzard can afford to mess with people by flip flopping.
So it's not fine for zerg to make a simple mistake and lose the game because of it, but how about terran or protoss? Terran clumps up marines and a single fungal can end the game, seems like a very simple mistake to lose the game on. How about protoss, one missed forcefield and lings stream in and kill every probe. Why is it ok for them to lose to a simple mistake but not alright if zerg loses because of a simple mistake?
I honestly don't see a game where one fungal actually changes everything cuz marines cost 50 minerals and there is usually a non-stop stream of them. Sure I've seen terran lose his whole army because he wasn't sieged but that's not the same thing as losing your whole mineral line to a few hellions.
The game should be about skill and risk/reward, I definitely thought hellions were too good for their cost and offered more reward than risk. And the thing about hellions is you don't have to do damage, you just have to contain, deny the 3rd base as long as possible and scout any all-ins. Meanwhile, you are sitting on a greedy 3 CC double engi build with nothing but 1 factory and 1 rax which by all standards should be super unsafe but before the queen buff it really wasn't. Yes roach/bane counters that greedy shit, but that's the nature of SC2, shit counters other shit, but for some reason every damn terran in the GSL was doing this reactor hellion 3 CC 2 engi build because it was the fucking best build on the planet, now it's a risky build because hellions don't automatically pay for themselves.
Excellent post, emc. Before the patch, I really hated how terrans could option select the following off reactor hellions, with Zerg having to absolutely guess what build it was or auto die.
This has been a problem since last year at MLG anaheim, but blizzard took its sweet time to collect the necessary data before the use the nerf/buff hammer.
And it seems like only this fact was holding zergs back to get their free thirds and dronecounts completely out of control. Yeah, it's pretty fair now. You are right!
On June 14 2012 07:16 Shiori wrote: I guarantee good players like DRG weren't taking "massive damage" from Hellions.
You have no idea... Go watch game 3 of blizzard cup finals against MMA. Arena of Legends finals against MKP...
just to name a few. DRG loses to hellions more times than I can count. and I run his damn fanclub!
So because DRG loses to a Code S winner (MMA) and a crazy-good TvZ player (MKP) on certain occasions that they use Hellions, the strategy deserves to be nerfed? Look at how long ago those events were. Look at how recently the Queen was buffed. I don't recall the Hellion making it impossible for DRG to compete with MKP at the last few MLGs, despite the latter opening Hellions almost every game. Hell, I don't even recall DRG coming anywhere close to losing to them.
It's entirely reasonable that an opening should have a small chance of doing a lot of damage if the opposing player screws up. Case in point, PvZ: if I fail to simcity correctly and scout correctly, I leave myself open to Baneling Busts, Roach Rushes, and Ling Runbys. I see no reason why Zerg can't do this against Hellion openers rather than just playing standard and automatically fending them off.
I dont think you understand the point of the buff. Go watch the david kim interview by TL posted yesterday. DK said that hellions were not unbeatable, but they were too strong for their costs. They control too much of the map for basically a very cheap investment. If you don't defend perfectly, you lose the game like DRG did. The risk/reward ratio was too lopsided in Terran's favor.
Also, saying that losing to good players is an acceptable excuse to have an overpowered strategy is a really bad argument....
First off, the MU was considered the most balanced one before the lastest patch. A LOT more people are complaing now, than before. Creep spread is huge in TvZ, and hellions were basically the only way to deny it, even tho it might have been too great of a risk/reward in terran's favor, 4 range queens would have been interesting. Zergs were doing just fine vs reactor hellion builds, before patch it only delayed ur creep for a short period of time tbh.
And wtf? Making hellions is an OP strat?
yet blizzard claims it's the most balanced it's ever been.
On June 14 2012 10:01 Shiori wrote:
On June 14 2012 09:54 neoghaleon55 wrote:
On June 14 2012 09:48 Shiori wrote:
On June 14 2012 09:45 neoghaleon55 wrote:
On June 14 2012 07:16 Shiori wrote: I guarantee good players like DRG weren't taking "massive damage" from Hellions.
You have no idea... Go watch game 3 of blizzard cup finals against MMA. Arena of Legends finals against MKP...
just to name a few. DRG loses to hellions more times than I can count. and I run his damn fanclub!
So because DRG loses to a Code S winner (MMA) and a crazy-good TvZ player (MKP) on certain occasions that they use Hellions, the strategy deserves to be nerfed? Look at how long ago those events were. Look at how recently the Queen was buffed. I don't recall the Hellion making it impossible for DRG to compete with MKP at the last few MLGs, despite the latter opening Hellions almost every game. Hell, I don't even recall DRG coming anywhere close to losing to them.
It's entirely reasonable that an opening should have a small chance of doing a lot of damage if the opposing player screws up. Case in point, PvZ: if I fail to simcity correctly and scout correctly, I leave myself open to Baneling Busts, Roach Rushes, and Ling Runbys. I see no reason why Zerg can't do this against Hellion openers rather than just playing standard and automatically fending them off.
I dont think you understand the point of the buff. Go watch the david kim interview by TL posted yesterday. DK said that hellions were not unbeatable, but they were too strong for their costs. They control too much of the map for basically a very cheap investment. If you don't defend perfectly, you lose the game like DRG did. The risk/reward ratio was too lopsided in Terran's favor.
Also, saying that losing to good players is an acceptable excuse to have an overpowered strategy is a really bad argument....
You're blinded by your Zerg bias, here. Hellions were a safe opener that allowed Terrans to delay (not deny) Creep Spreading and retain mapcontrol until Speedlings were out en masse. That's good because now it's essentially impossible for Terran to get any map control early. It's also the case now that Creep is over halfway across the map by 10 minutes, even if the Terran opens Hellions. If Hellion openers were overpowered, then the current state of ZvT is flat-out broken.
oh so now you speak on the terrans behalf? you don't even play their race, you really hate zerg don't you? But what would you prefer? queen buff or increase the cost of the hellion? because that's what it came down to, the hellion COST for COST had way more reward than risk because they were fast, and a simple mistake like moving your drones away from the mineral line automatically lines them up for the hellions. Also DK stated that they wanted to see more diverse strategies and openings which they started to see after the queen buff. so tell me mr. terran, what was so diverse about TvZ before the queen nerf? virtually nothing, terrans 90% of the time opened reactor hellion.
and like I said before, blizzard has numbers we don't have access to, if a win percentage spikes, we'll know about it.
But realistically, I wouldn't mind a creep nerf, just don't revert the queen range, I don't think blizzard can afford to mess with people by flip flopping.
Blizzard is wrong. It's that simple. I don't care about their ladder statistics which include shitty low Masters players that do nothing but all-in; I care about the top level. They overnerfed the Ghost and they overbuffed the Queen. If you want "diversity" in a balanced matchup, then you add options, you don't remove them. There was nothing wrong with the Hellion opener. Want to know why? Because the matchup as a whole was balanced. If, as you say, the Hellion was too rewarding, then the fact that TvZ was still balanced statistically means that some other part of the game was equally Zerg favoured. In buffing the Queen, you've only trimmed one side of the tree, so to speak.
And like I said, a slight mistake losing you the game is completely fine. Try playing a PvT or PvP, or hell, even ZvZ. One misstep loses you the game for most of the entire matchup. That's not a problem. It means that players who don't make mistakes win games, like DRG did against Terran. Didn't see him losing too often to Hellion runbys, because he's not an idiot and he actually pays attention 99% of the time.
What "diverse strategies" have been working out for Terran since the Queen buff? Marauder/Hellion all-ins? Blind 3OC? Losing in general?
I don't speak on anyone's behalf (but apparently I really touched a nerve of yours in that other thread) but I'm not sure how me thinking the Queen buff was retarded means I hate Zerg. Why would I mindlessly hate a fictional race? Plus, the Queen buff barely affects PvZ, except by making scouting more difficult (which is stupid, but manageable). It literally turned TvZ from being one of my favourite matchups to watch into being the least balanced matchup in the entire game. It's boring seeing Zergs take an early third every single game, because it's passive play. You say you hated Terrans not having diversity? Fine, but at least their sameness made things happen and forced reactions. Zergs taking a fast third is boring as fuck because it's just passive play. Seeing Creep over halfway across the map at 10 minutes is another embarrassment that should tell you right away how crucial the viability of Hellions was to the stability of the matchup.
I'm not going to just take Blizzard's word for it. They're made tonnes of retarded choices over the years, and they've consistently refused to address real issues until long overdue.
problem is you believe that the game is balanced for the highest level but it's not, it's balanced for all levels. So those stats where shitty masters players all-in, is TAKEN into account. Whether you like it or not, blizzard HAS to do this, it's their imperative that the game isn't impossible to play at a bronze level all the way to GM. Blizzard does their balancing when they feel that there is an imbalance on ALL levels.
maybe DRG can handle hellions with 3 range queens, but obviously not everyone is DRG, even GM's and GSL level players couldn't handle 2 reactor hellion all-ins if the terran stopped scouting perfectly and the zerg didn't blindly make roaches, so how would a bronze player stop it?
Look I know you don't like it, but it's their method, and can't change it, won't happen.
Because players in Bronze are literally fucking irrelevant to balance. Do you know what's overpowered in Bronze? Skill. Building workers. Making units. Not getting supply blocked. I could make any build look overpowered in Bronze. Do you think any Bronze player is going to think reactored Hellions are OP, or are they just going to think whatever popular strategy they meet is overpowered?
The game was never impossible to play at any level. Zerg is always going to be the hardest at Platinum and lower just because of macro mechanics, but you're acting like pre-Hellion nerf Zerg was never winning on the ladder. How about 3base Roach? Do you advocate a nerf to that just because any Protoss without perfect FFs is going to die to it?
There was no imbalance with Hellions at the pro level, so your first premise is flawed anyways.
PS. QXC bunker strat was a gimmick and wont work against top players anymore, Raven is a new opening I'll grant you that, but Hellion openers were transitioning into standard bio, Banshees, mech, and all kinds of stuff. Not sure how that isn't diverse.
that was kind of the problem, hellion openers allowed ANY style to be used after and the thing with hellions is they are so fast that they catch any zergling scouts if you are skilled enough, and you have marines to deny overlord scouting, so a perfect playing terran can catch a zerg off guard with any unit combination.
I never said it was impossible, when did I say that? I said if the terran was good enough they can deny scouts and make it very hard to see whats coming, making any multi-factory hellion all-in very strong.
you are right, bronze players are zero indicator of balance but I never said I liked blizzards method, I was simply explaining to you because you seem to have forgotten that blizzard is a company that needs to make money and making money means selling your game to customers which means you must sell to the lowest common denominator. As I said before, I'M SORRY IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE WAY BLIZZARD BALANCES THE GAME, but that's how they do it son.
but you have to admit it's pretty impressive that blizzard is seeing 50% win rates across the board, bronze - GM, I mean how is that even possible right? well apparently it is, so kudos to them.
I'm gonna first start off by saying that in of itself, I'm fine with the Zerg buff. Overlord speed is fine, Queen range is fine. I'm even fine with the Zerg creep even though it gets fucking ridiculous if Zerg really focuses on it.
The problem -I- have with this buff is I, as a Terran player, have limited options. The Banshee/Raven opening is nice (and I looooove the Raven), but it's likely just a gimmick at this point. I don't see it being a mainstay especially since it's so vulnerable to a Mutalisk or even Infestor tech switch.
So as of now, I have two options: Push out early to harass the economy via Marine/Tank or Marine/Hellion, or sit back in my base and go for a 3OC build for a 2/2 timing push before Hive tech becomes prevalent.
In other words, I have to take on Zerg's lategame and pray to Dustin Browder that Zerg is going Broodlords because I'm going blind Viking/Raven to counter that, because Ghosts got super nerfed for the TvZ match-up so Terran no longer has a unit that allows Terran to hold a position if they fail to guess correctly what Zerg is teching for.
There's no longer any diversity vs Zerg (or Protoss for that matter) for Terrans anymore while Zerg can play roulette with what unit composition they can have.
I honestly don't see a game where one fungal actually changes everything cuz marines cost 50 minerals and there is usually a non-stop stream of them. Sure I've seen terran lose his whole army because he wasn't sieged but that's not the same thing as losing your whole mineral line to a few hellions.
The game should be about skill and risk/reward, I definitely thought hellions were too good for their cost and offered more reward than risk. And the thing about hellions is you don't have to do damage, you just have to contain, deny the 3rd base as long as possible and scout any all-ins. Meanwhile, you are sitting on a greedy 3 CC double engi build with nothing but 1 factory and 1 rax which by all standards should be super unsafe but before the queen buff it really wasn't. Yes roach/bane counters that greedy shit, but that's the nature of SC2, shit counters other shit, but for some reason every damn terran in the GSL was doing this reactor hellion 3 CC 2 engi build because it was the fucking best build on the planet, now it's a risky build because hellions don't automatically pay for themselves.
Excellent post, emc. Before the patch, I really hated how terrans could option select the following off reactor hellions, with Zerg having to absolutely guess what build it was or auto die.
This has been a problem since last year at MLG anaheim, but blizzard took its sweet time to collect the necessary data before the use the nerf/buff hammer.
And it seems like only this fact was holding zergs back to get their free thirds and dronecounts completely out of control. Yeah, it's pretty fair now. You are right!
Zerg getting a third does not mean the end of the game.
On August 16 2011 07:09 Buzzo wrote: i don't see the problem,
a terran need good emps to win against a late game Protoss army a protoss need good force fields to survive terran early aggression etc...
and yes balance only matter for the highest level of play.
Not strictly true......
I know games where my resource and unit counts were both higher and my engagements were pretty fine (I know how to stutter step, I hit all my emp, my vikings were always in combat) but I still lost just due to it being close position entombed valley...possibly the worst possible thing that could ever happen in tvp.
yet blizzard claims it's the most balanced it's ever been.
Where exactly di they say that. Since you know june tournaments results showed TvZ at 45%(worse results since July last year) and it looks even worse this month right now (MLG, TSL Korean qualifier wit 40 % TvZ)
On June 17 2012 05:32 emc wrote:
oh so now you speak on the terrans behalf? you don't even play their race, you really hate zerg don't you? But what would you prefer? queen buff or increase the cost of the hellion? because that's what it came down to, the hellion COST for COST had way more reward than risk because they were fast, and a simple mistake like moving your drones away from the mineral line automatically lines them up for the hellions. Also DK stated that they wanted to see more diverse strategies and openings which they started to see after the queen buff. so tell me mr. terran, what was so diverse about TvZ before the queen nerf? virtually nothing, terrans 90% of the time opened reactor hellion.
Or they had possibility to change nothing since tvZ was considered balanced and best matchup in the game
On June 17 2012 05:32 emc wrote: and like I said before, blizzard has numbers we don't have access to, if a win percentage spikes, we'll know about it.
How exactly we will know? They published ladder stats twice in almost two years
in every single one of their MLG interviews, they've claimed that SC2 is the most balanced it's been, this isn't just ladder either, they are talking tournaments. They are taking win rates globally, not just one region, sure it might be skewed in Z favor but how many matches total was that in comparison to how many matches total were played globally?
I think they've been busy with other things, probably a reason why we haven't seen any official blue post
sure, numbers are numbers, metagame is something entirely different, but numbers DO mean something and if the numbers look ok, then it's probably ok. Blizzard DOES watch tournaments as well, so even 50/50 on paper looks nice, they still pay attention to the actual games and see what pros are doing. Browder mentioned that David Kims job is to watch every major tournament, that's his job, I think he knows his shit.
btw I heard all that from this:
Sorry but Blizzard can say that ladder stats are ok(these were alos ok when last time they published them - TvZ was at 50% in 2 regions and 52 in one), but for tournament results we see these worldwide numbers and the they are worst for TvZ since almost year.
We always talk about how Zerg has to choose between making drones and making units, how it is one of the main difficulty of the race, how it balances out their strength, etc.. Now that in two of their matchups (the third is balanced by default anyway, as it's their mirror), they can drone up to at least 60 drones without any danger before having to decide wether they need more of these or need to build units, doesn't it remove an interesting component of their gameplay?
The main problem here is a zerg's units speed, zlings and muta basically. Speedlings speed must be decreased 20-30%. Muta acceleration and speed must be decreased also. INfested terrans energy cost must be increased to 50. As of now zerg is just 1a move race.
On June 17 2012 20:53 Jimbo77 wrote: The main problem here is a zerg's units speed, zlings and muta basically. Speedlings speed must be decreased 20-30%. Muta acceleration and speed must be decreased also. INfested terrans energy cost must be increased to 50. As of now zerg is just 1a move race.
I don't really agree with all of that. I think speedlings "are" a bit too fast on creep, but I'm happy with muta speeds. I think the best counter to infested terran issues is making a raven or two and keeping it alive.
Only thing I'd really like to see done to the game is a nerf of all of the macro mechanics. A quick write-up would be something along the lines of: -Terran Mule mining capabilities decreased from about 270 minerals to about 180 and cooldown introduced -Zerg inject larvae reduced from 4 larvae to 3, creep speed increase reduced from 30% to 20% -Protoss Chronoboost length reduced, or cost increased to 50 depending on the power of the mothership core in HotS.
Granted, this would throw the whole game for a loop, like Zerglings needing to be buffed/marines needing to be nerfed, and Protoss warpgate research time reduced, but I think it would do a lot to make the game better with bigger maps and more bases. Kind of like the 6min 1hi-gas experiment. It would also make playing Terran a little less of a race against time, and make Zergs less droning and passive. However as you can probably tell I'm not a big Protoss player so I can't really say too much for what the change would do for them.
I honestly don't see a game where one fungal actually changes everything cuz marines cost 50 minerals and there is usually a non-stop stream of them. Sure I've seen terran lose his whole army because he wasn't sieged but that's not the same thing as losing your whole mineral line to a few hellions.
The game should be about skill and risk/reward, I definitely thought hellions were too good for their cost and offered more reward than risk. And the thing about hellions is you don't have to do damage, you just have to contain, deny the 3rd base as long as possible and scout any all-ins. Meanwhile, you are sitting on a greedy 3 CC double engi build with nothing but 1 factory and 1 rax which by all standards should be super unsafe but before the queen buff it really wasn't. Yes roach/bane counters that greedy shit, but that's the nature of SC2, shit counters other shit, but for some reason every damn terran in the GSL was doing this reactor hellion 3 CC 2 engi build because it was the fucking best build on the planet, now it's a risky build because hellions don't automatically pay for themselves.
Excellent post, emc. Before the patch, I really hated how terrans could option select the following off reactor hellions, with Zerg having to absolutely guess what build it was or auto die.
This has been a problem since last year at MLG anaheim, but blizzard took its sweet time to collect the necessary data before the use the nerf/buff hammer.
And it seems like only this fact was holding zergs back to get their free thirds and dronecounts completely out of control. Yeah, it's pretty fair now. You are right!
Zerg getting a fast third does not mean the end of the game.
I honestly don't see a game where one fungal actually changes everything cuz marines cost 50 minerals and there is usually a non-stop stream of them. Sure I've seen terran lose his whole army because he wasn't sieged but that's not the same thing as losing your whole mineral line to a few hellions.
The game should be about skill and risk/reward, I definitely thought hellions were too good for their cost and offered more reward than risk. And the thing about hellions is you don't have to do damage, you just have to contain, deny the 3rd base as long as possible and scout any all-ins. Meanwhile, you are sitting on a greedy 3 CC double engi build with nothing but 1 factory and 1 rax which by all standards should be super unsafe but before the queen buff it really wasn't. Yes roach/bane counters that greedy shit, but that's the nature of SC2, shit counters other shit, but for some reason every damn terran in the GSL was doing this reactor hellion 3 CC 2 engi build because it was the fucking best build on the planet, now it's a risky build because hellions don't automatically pay for themselves.
Excellent post, emc. Before the patch, I really hated how terrans could option select the following off reactor hellions, with Zerg having to absolutely guess what build it was or auto die.
This has been a problem since last year at MLG anaheim, but blizzard took its sweet time to collect the necessary data before the use the nerf/buff hammer.
And it seems like only this fact was holding zergs back to get their free thirds and dronecounts completely out of control. Yeah, it's pretty fair now. You are right!
Zerg getting a fast third does not mean the end of the game.
It kind of does.
It kinda does indeed. Only way you can find your way out of this one is to have an early third CC yourself (and not die to roach/banelings, obviously).
On June 17 2012 20:39 ZenithM wrote: Now that in two of their matchups (the third is balanced by default anyway, as it's their mirror), they can drone up to at least 60 drones without any danger before having to decide wether they need more of these or need to build units, doesn't it remove an interesting component of their gameplay?
I think that point can't be discussed like "while Zerg can make 60 Drones, T/P can't". Just go into the Zerg's point of view. If you are able to make like 60 Drones why should you make Units?
You have to be aggressive as Terran or as Protoss, no matter how. If you do some Hellion opening with a Raven for instance just to snipe some Tumors, that will make the Zerg to defend with like a lot Lings or Queens, he won't be able to drone that much.
That's at least my point of view, even when I can't handle Zerg as well. :D
The problem with fast Zerg thirds is that they're not like fast Protoss/Terran thirds, which grant the immense economic advantage if they're allowed to get up. Zerg thirds also do this, but they carry with them a production capacity that means you can't just match their greed or you're going to get run over by units. When I make a Nexus, Zerg players don't tremble that I'd be able to warp in an army and kill them, because they know I'm investing in a Nexus rather than production. Hatcheries are Zerg production, which means that if I see a Zerg take a fast third, I can't respond by taking a fast third of my own off of one Rax/Gate without fearing an couple of injects worth of Lings/Roach barrelling down my front door.
I honestly don't see a game where one fungal actually changes everything cuz marines cost 50 minerals and there is usually a non-stop stream of them. Sure I've seen terran lose his whole army because he wasn't sieged but that's not the same thing as losing your whole mineral line to a few hellions.
The game should be about skill and risk/reward, I definitely thought hellions were too good for their cost and offered more reward than risk. And the thing about hellions is you don't have to do damage, you just have to contain, deny the 3rd base as long as possible and scout any all-ins. Meanwhile, you are sitting on a greedy 3 CC double engi build with nothing but 1 factory and 1 rax which by all standards should be super unsafe but before the queen buff it really wasn't. Yes roach/bane counters that greedy shit, but that's the nature of SC2, shit counters other shit, but for some reason every damn terran in the GSL was doing this reactor hellion 3 CC 2 engi build because it was the fucking best build on the planet, now it's a risky build because hellions don't automatically pay for themselves.
Excellent post, emc. Before the patch, I really hated how terrans could option select the following off reactor hellions, with Zerg having to absolutely guess what build it was or auto die.
This has been a problem since last year at MLG anaheim, but blizzard took its sweet time to collect the necessary data before the use the nerf/buff hammer.
And it seems like only this fact was holding zergs back to get their free thirds and dronecounts completely out of control. Yeah, it's pretty fair now. You are right!
Zerg getting a fast third does not mean the end of the game.
It kind of does.
It kinda does indeed. Only way you can find your way out of this one is to have an early third CC yourself (and not die to roach/banelings, obviously).
it doesn't. You can still expand to third during applying a 2 base aggression and hit before broodlords finish. It is when the broodlords are out that win zerg the game, not the third.
the reason why zerg can get on a third is easily is largely because of the quick 3CC, rather than needing to build macro hatch and prepare for 2 base aggression
I honestly don't see a game where one fungal actually changes everything cuz marines cost 50 minerals and there is usually a non-stop stream of them. Sure I've seen terran lose his whole army because he wasn't sieged but that's not the same thing as losing your whole mineral line to a few hellions.
The game should be about skill and risk/reward, I definitely thought hellions were too good for their cost and offered more reward than risk. And the thing about hellions is you don't have to do damage, you just have to contain, deny the 3rd base as long as possible and scout any all-ins. Meanwhile, you are sitting on a greedy 3 CC double engi build with nothing but 1 factory and 1 rax which by all standards should be super unsafe but before the queen buff it really wasn't. Yes roach/bane counters that greedy shit, but that's the nature of SC2, shit counters other shit, but for some reason every damn terran in the GSL was doing this reactor hellion 3 CC 2 engi build because it was the fucking best build on the planet, now it's a risky build because hellions don't automatically pay for themselves.
Excellent post, emc. Before the patch, I really hated how terrans could option select the following off reactor hellions, with Zerg having to absolutely guess what build it was or auto die.
This has been a problem since last year at MLG anaheim, but blizzard took its sweet time to collect the necessary data before the use the nerf/buff hammer.
And it seems like only this fact was holding zergs back to get their free thirds and dronecounts completely out of control. Yeah, it's pretty fair now. You are right!
Zerg getting a fast third does not mean the end of the game.
It kind of does.
It kinda does indeed. Only way you can find your way out of this one is to have an early third CC yourself (and not die to roach/banelings, obviously).
it doesn't. You can still expand to third during applying a 2 base aggression and hit before broodlords finish. It is when the broodlords are out that win zerg the game, not the third.
the reason why zerg can get on a third is easily is largely because of the quick 3CC, rather than needing to build macro hatch and prepare for 2 base aggression
2 base aggression can very easily be held with 3 bases, especially since Zerg thirds get connected to Creep extremely quickly on most maps. The only 2 base aggression pushes that guarantee damage tend to be all-ins. The fast third means fast Brood Lords because it means faster gas. Terran shouldn't need to all-in every game because Zerg has the option of taking a fast third.
I honestly don't see a game where one fungal actually changes everything cuz marines cost 50 minerals and there is usually a non-stop stream of them. Sure I've seen terran lose his whole army because he wasn't sieged but that's not the same thing as losing your whole mineral line to a few hellions.
The game should be about skill and risk/reward, I definitely thought hellions were too good for their cost and offered more reward than risk. And the thing about hellions is you don't have to do damage, you just have to contain, deny the 3rd base as long as possible and scout any all-ins. Meanwhile, you are sitting on a greedy 3 CC double engi build with nothing but 1 factory and 1 rax which by all standards should be super unsafe but before the queen buff it really wasn't. Yes roach/bane counters that greedy shit, but that's the nature of SC2, shit counters other shit, but for some reason every damn terran in the GSL was doing this reactor hellion 3 CC 2 engi build because it was the fucking best build on the planet, now it's a risky build because hellions don't automatically pay for themselves.
Excellent post, emc. Before the patch, I really hated how terrans could option select the following off reactor hellions, with Zerg having to absolutely guess what build it was or auto die.
This has been a problem since last year at MLG anaheim, but blizzard took its sweet time to collect the necessary data before the use the nerf/buff hammer.
And it seems like only this fact was holding zergs back to get their free thirds and dronecounts completely out of control. Yeah, it's pretty fair now. You are right!
Zerg getting a fast third does not mean the end of the game.
It kind of does.
It kinda does indeed. Only way you can find your way out of this one is to have an early third CC yourself (and not die to roach/banelings, obviously).
it doesn't. You can still expand to third during applying a 2 base aggression and hit before broodlords finish. It is when the broodlords are out that win zerg the game, not the third.
the reason why zerg can get on a third is easily is largely because of the quick 3CC, rather than needing to build macro hatch and prepare for 2 base aggression
No, the reason Zerg can get a third this early is because of the quick SECOND CC, not the quick third CC :D It's not that hard to understand, it's exactly the same in ZvP. P/T makes his 2nd at the same time you make your 2nd as Zerg, you make your 3rd as a response. I'm not saying it's bad, but as Terran you kind of need your own third early too. There is a reason Koreans only do fast 3rd CC nowadays. Or can you give me some examples of effective Terran 2 base timings? And when I say fast 3rd, it's not gasless 3rd either, it may be hellions then third, one banshee then third, something like that, but definitely not "add a complete 2 base production then third", which is completely ineffective currently.
As for droning freely, obviously you have to make queens to defend the hellions and banshees (because as it turns out, queens defend both), it's the so called 6 queens build which defends kinda everything, while pushing creep unbelievably quickly. But queens don't come from larvae so you can still SDDDDDDD to your heart's content. You don't have to make larvae units to defend hellions/banshee/raven.
EPT
