On June 14 2012 07:16 Shiori wrote: I guarantee good players like DRG weren't taking "massive damage" from Hellions.
You have no idea... Go watch game 3 of blizzard cup finals against MMA. Arena of Legends finals against MKP...
just to name a few. DRG loses to hellions more times than I can count. and I run his damn fanclub!
So because DRG loses to a Code S winner (MMA) and a crazy-good TvZ player (MKP) on certain occasions that they use Hellions, the strategy deserves to be nerfed? Look at how long ago those events were. Look at how recently the Queen was buffed. I don't recall the Hellion making it impossible for DRG to compete with MKP at the last few MLGs, despite the latter opening Hellions almost every game. Hell, I don't even recall DRG coming anywhere close to losing to them.
It's entirely reasonable that an opening should have a small chance of doing a lot of damage if the opposing player screws up. Case in point, PvZ: if I fail to simcity correctly and scout correctly, I leave myself open to Baneling Busts, Roach Rushes, and Ling Runbys. I see no reason why Zerg can't do this against Hellion openers rather than just playing standard and automatically fending them off.
I dont think you understand the point of the buff. Go watch the david kim interview by TL posted yesterday. DK said that hellions were not unbeatable, but they were too strong for their costs. They control too much of the map for basically a very cheap investment. If you don't defend perfectly, you lose the game like DRG did. The risk/reward ratio was too lopsided in Terran's favor.
Also, saying that losing to good players is an acceptable excuse to have an overpowered strategy is a really bad argument....
You're blinded by your Zerg bias, here. Hellions were a safe opener that allowed Terrans to delay (not deny) Creep Spreading and retain mapcontrol until Speedlings were out en masse. That's good because now it's essentially impossible for Terran to get any map control early. It's also the case now that Creep is over halfway across the map by 10 minutes, even if the Terran opens Hellions. If Hellion openers were overpowered, then the current state of ZvT is flat-out broken.
Don't go crying to me. I'm just telling you what David Kim told everyone. You just seem to miss the memo.
I read David Kim's interview. He's wrong. Stop blindly appealing to authority, lol.
lol.... go apply to work for Blizzard. I'm sure you'll do a better job.
lol... david kim looked SO BAKED in that interview.. i really do think thayt sc2 is unbalanced just hope they do something before hots
On June 14 2012 07:16 Shiori wrote: I guarantee good players like DRG weren't taking "massive damage" from Hellions.
You have no idea... Go watch game 3 of blizzard cup finals against MMA. Arena of Legends finals against MKP...
just to name a few. DRG loses to hellions more times than I can count. and I run his damn fanclub!
So because DRG loses to a Code S winner (MMA) and a crazy-good TvZ player (MKP) on certain occasions that they use Hellions, the strategy deserves to be nerfed? Look at how long ago those events were. Look at how recently the Queen was buffed. I don't recall the Hellion making it impossible for DRG to compete with MKP at the last few MLGs, despite the latter opening Hellions almost every game. Hell, I don't even recall DRG coming anywhere close to losing to them.
It's entirely reasonable that an opening should have a small chance of doing a lot of damage if the opposing player screws up. Case in point, PvZ: if I fail to simcity correctly and scout correctly, I leave myself open to Baneling Busts, Roach Rushes, and Ling Runbys. I see no reason why Zerg can't do this against Hellion openers rather than just playing standard and automatically fending them off.
I dont think you understand the point of the buff. Go watch the david kim interview by TL posted yesterday. DK said that hellions were not unbeatable, but they were too strong for their costs. They control too much of the map for basically a very cheap investment. If you don't defend perfectly, you lose the game like DRG did. The risk/reward ratio was too lopsided in Terran's favor.
Also, saying that losing to good players is an acceptable excuse to have an overpowered strategy is a really bad argument....
First off, the MU was considered the most balanced one before the lastest patch. A LOT more people are complaing now, than before. Creep spread is huge in TvZ, and hellions were basically the only way to deny it, even tho it might have been too great of a risk/reward in terran's favor, 4 range queens would have been interesting. Zergs were doing just fine vs reactor hellion builds, before patch it only delayed ur creep for a short period of time tbh.
Problem: Ravens are a really really REALLY good unit, BUT (hear me out, now) they need 5 upgrades that make them really useful. FIVE. That's a lot...let me list them, and the total costs:
Durable Materials (longer duration of the things that ravens cast): 150m/150g/110s Corvid Reactor (increases starting energy by 25): 150m/150g/110s Seeker Missile (allows use of seeker missile): 150m/150g/110s Hi-Sec Auto Tracking ([optional] increases range of autoturrets and PDD): 100m/100g/80s Building Armor (+2 armor to autoturrets and PDD): 150m/150g/140s.
Totals: 700m/700g/550s. So essentially the problem is that this is a LOT of resources, and time (especially if you only have a few tech-labbed starports) to make the raven a good, useful unit. A secondary problem might be that the raven is very slow.
Solutions: Combine a few of the upgrades (for example, Seeker Missiles and Durable Materials). Decrease costs and/or time of upgrades. Slightly buff the raven speed.
Possible outcomes/future problems: Ravens will actually be used. Ravens may become a little too powerful. Ravens will subsequently be nerfed.
On June 14 2012 07:16 Shiori wrote: I guarantee good players like DRG weren't taking "massive damage" from Hellions.
You have no idea... Go watch game 3 of blizzard cup finals against MMA. Arena of Legends finals against MKP...
just to name a few. DRG loses to hellions more times than I can count. and I run his damn fanclub!
So because DRG loses to a Code S winner (MMA) and a crazy-good TvZ player (MKP) on certain occasions that they use Hellions, the strategy deserves to be nerfed? Look at how long ago those events were. Look at how recently the Queen was buffed. I don't recall the Hellion making it impossible for DRG to compete with MKP at the last few MLGs, despite the latter opening Hellions almost every game. Hell, I don't even recall DRG coming anywhere close to losing to them.
It's entirely reasonable that an opening should have a small chance of doing a lot of damage if the opposing player screws up. Case in point, PvZ: if I fail to simcity correctly and scout correctly, I leave myself open to Baneling Busts, Roach Rushes, and Ling Runbys. I see no reason why Zerg can't do this against Hellion openers rather than just playing standard and automatically fending them off.
I dont think you understand the point of the buff. Go watch the david kim interview by TL posted yesterday. DK said that hellions were not unbeatable, but they were too strong for their costs. They control too much of the map for basically a very cheap investment. If you don't defend perfectly, you lose the game like DRG did. The risk/reward ratio was too lopsided in Terran's favor.
Also, saying that losing to good players is an acceptable excuse to have an overpowered strategy is a really bad argument....
First off, the MU was considered the most balanced one before the lastest patch. A LOT more people are complaing now, than before. Creep spread is huge in TvZ, and hellions were basically the only way to deny it, even tho it might have been too great of a risk/reward in terran's favor, 4 range queens would have been interesting. Zergs were doing just fine vs reactor hellion builds, before patch it only delayed ur creep for a short period of time tbh.
And wtf? Making hellions is an OP strat?
Yeaaah, pre-patch the general consensus was that TvZ was balanced. This doesn't mean they shouldn't make changes, however if they're going to improve one race in a relatively balanced matchup, then they shouldn't ignore the other.
In my eyes, I have no issues with the zerg buff. It does indeed help. But if Blizzard were hoping that buffing one race was going to equate to increased balance in a balanced matchup they're crazy haha. So I have no issues with zerg buff, but I'd like some terran lategame buffs since the common issue with all terran matchups is that there's this opinion that damage needs to be done early/mid game to be equal lategame. Though I'm still of the opinion terran can do this damage in the early/mid game, it's still poor design to give them a weak lategame accordingly.
EDIT @above: Yes I would like to see Ravens slightly improved. Literally all the upgrades you listed are hardly touched, ocassionally Hi-Sec Auto-Tracking for PFs. I wouldn't even mind if the upgrade cost is just added together, but with high macro who thinks to upgrade all 5 things to buff their ravens? +3 more if you want air armour. Encouraging Raven use I think is something Blizzard could do with some small buffs like this.
On June 14 2012 07:16 Shiori wrote: I guarantee good players like DRG weren't taking "massive damage" from Hellions.
You have no idea... Go watch game 3 of blizzard cup finals against MMA. Arena of Legends finals against MKP...
just to name a few. DRG loses to hellions more times than I can count. and I run his damn fanclub!
So because DRG loses to a Code S winner (MMA) and a crazy-good TvZ player (MKP) on certain occasions that they use Hellions, the strategy deserves to be nerfed? Look at how long ago those events were. Look at how recently the Queen was buffed. I don't recall the Hellion making it impossible for DRG to compete with MKP at the last few MLGs, despite the latter opening Hellions almost every game. Hell, I don't even recall DRG coming anywhere close to losing to them.
It's entirely reasonable that an opening should have a small chance of doing a lot of damage if the opposing player screws up. Case in point, PvZ: if I fail to simcity correctly and scout correctly, I leave myself open to Baneling Busts, Roach Rushes, and Ling Runbys. I see no reason why Zerg can't do this against Hellion openers rather than just playing standard and automatically fending them off.
I dont think you understand the point of the buff. Go watch the david kim interview by TL posted yesterday. DK said that hellions were not unbeatable, but they were too strong for their costs. They control too much of the map for basically a very cheap investment. If you don't defend perfectly, you lose the game like DRG did. The risk/reward ratio was too lopsided in Terran's favor.
Also, saying that losing to good players is an acceptable excuse to have an overpowered strategy is a really bad argument....
First off, the MU was considered the most balanced one before the lastest patch. A LOT more people are complaing now, than before. Creep spread is huge in TvZ, and hellions were basically the only way to deny it, even tho it might have been too great of a risk/reward in terran's favor, 4 range queens would have been interesting. Zergs were doing just fine vs reactor hellion builds, before patch it only delayed ur creep for a short period of time tbh.
And wtf? Making hellions is an OP strat?
yet blizzard claims it's the most balanced it's ever been.
On June 14 2012 07:16 Shiori wrote: I guarantee good players like DRG weren't taking "massive damage" from Hellions.
You have no idea... Go watch game 3 of blizzard cup finals against MMA. Arena of Legends finals against MKP...
just to name a few. DRG loses to hellions more times than I can count. and I run his damn fanclub!
So because DRG loses to a Code S winner (MMA) and a crazy-good TvZ player (MKP) on certain occasions that they use Hellions, the strategy deserves to be nerfed? Look at how long ago those events were. Look at how recently the Queen was buffed. I don't recall the Hellion making it impossible for DRG to compete with MKP at the last few MLGs, despite the latter opening Hellions almost every game. Hell, I don't even recall DRG coming anywhere close to losing to them.
It's entirely reasonable that an opening should have a small chance of doing a lot of damage if the opposing player screws up. Case in point, PvZ: if I fail to simcity correctly and scout correctly, I leave myself open to Baneling Busts, Roach Rushes, and Ling Runbys. I see no reason why Zerg can't do this against Hellion openers rather than just playing standard and automatically fending them off.
I dont think you understand the point of the buff. Go watch the david kim interview by TL posted yesterday. DK said that hellions were not unbeatable, but they were too strong for their costs. They control too much of the map for basically a very cheap investment. If you don't defend perfectly, you lose the game like DRG did. The risk/reward ratio was too lopsided in Terran's favor.
Also, saying that losing to good players is an acceptable excuse to have an overpowered strategy is a really bad argument....
You're blinded by your Zerg bias, here. Hellions were a safe opener that allowed Terrans to delay (not deny) Creep Spreading and retain mapcontrol until Speedlings were out en masse. That's good because now it's essentially impossible for Terran to get any map control early. It's also the case now that Creep is over halfway across the map by 10 minutes, even if the Terran opens Hellions. If Hellion openers were overpowered, then the current state of ZvT is flat-out broken.
oh so now you speak on the terrans behalf? you don't even play their race, you really hate zerg don't you? But what would you prefer? queen buff or increase the cost of the hellion? because that's what it came down to, the hellion COST for COST had way more reward than risk because they were fast, and a simple mistake like moving your drones away from the mineral line automatically lines them up for the hellions. Also DK stated that they wanted to see more diverse strategies and openings which they started to see after the queen buff. so tell me mr. terran, what was so diverse about TvZ before the queen nerf? virtually nothing, terrans 90% of the time opened reactor hellion.
and like I said before, blizzard has numbers we don't have access to, if a win percentage spikes, we'll know about it.
But realistically, I wouldn't mind a creep nerf, just don't revert the queen range, I don't think blizzard can afford to mess with people by flip flopping.
On June 14 2012 07:16 Shiori wrote: I guarantee good players like DRG weren't taking "massive damage" from Hellions.
You have no idea... Go watch game 3 of blizzard cup finals against MMA. Arena of Legends finals against MKP...
just to name a few. DRG loses to hellions more times than I can count. and I run his damn fanclub!
So because DRG loses to a Code S winner (MMA) and a crazy-good TvZ player (MKP) on certain occasions that they use Hellions, the strategy deserves to be nerfed? Look at how long ago those events were. Look at how recently the Queen was buffed. I don't recall the Hellion making it impossible for DRG to compete with MKP at the last few MLGs, despite the latter opening Hellions almost every game. Hell, I don't even recall DRG coming anywhere close to losing to them.
It's entirely reasonable that an opening should have a small chance of doing a lot of damage if the opposing player screws up. Case in point, PvZ: if I fail to simcity correctly and scout correctly, I leave myself open to Baneling Busts, Roach Rushes, and Ling Runbys. I see no reason why Zerg can't do this against Hellion openers rather than just playing standard and automatically fending them off.
I dont think you understand the point of the buff. Go watch the david kim interview by TL posted yesterday. DK said that hellions were not unbeatable, but they were too strong for their costs. They control too much of the map for basically a very cheap investment. If you don't defend perfectly, you lose the game like DRG did. The risk/reward ratio was too lopsided in Terran's favor.
Also, saying that losing to good players is an acceptable excuse to have an overpowered strategy is a really bad argument....
First off, the MU was considered the most balanced one before the lastest patch. A LOT more people are complaing now, than before. Creep spread is huge in TvZ, and hellions were basically the only way to deny it, even tho it might have been too great of a risk/reward in terran's favor, 4 range queens would have been interesting. Zergs were doing just fine vs reactor hellion builds, before patch it only delayed ur creep for a short period of time tbh.
And wtf? Making hellions is an OP strat?
yet blizzard claims it's the most balanced it's ever been.
On June 14 2012 07:16 Shiori wrote: I guarantee good players like DRG weren't taking "massive damage" from Hellions.
You have no idea... Go watch game 3 of blizzard cup finals against MMA. Arena of Legends finals against MKP...
just to name a few. DRG loses to hellions more times than I can count. and I run his damn fanclub!
So because DRG loses to a Code S winner (MMA) and a crazy-good TvZ player (MKP) on certain occasions that they use Hellions, the strategy deserves to be nerfed? Look at how long ago those events were. Look at how recently the Queen was buffed. I don't recall the Hellion making it impossible for DRG to compete with MKP at the last few MLGs, despite the latter opening Hellions almost every game. Hell, I don't even recall DRG coming anywhere close to losing to them.
It's entirely reasonable that an opening should have a small chance of doing a lot of damage if the opposing player screws up. Case in point, PvZ: if I fail to simcity correctly and scout correctly, I leave myself open to Baneling Busts, Roach Rushes, and Ling Runbys. I see no reason why Zerg can't do this against Hellion openers rather than just playing standard and automatically fending them off.
I dont think you understand the point of the buff. Go watch the david kim interview by TL posted yesterday. DK said that hellions were not unbeatable, but they were too strong for their costs. They control too much of the map for basically a very cheap investment. If you don't defend perfectly, you lose the game like DRG did. The risk/reward ratio was too lopsided in Terran's favor.
Also, saying that losing to good players is an acceptable excuse to have an overpowered strategy is a really bad argument....
You're blinded by your Zerg bias, here. Hellions were a safe opener that allowed Terrans to delay (not deny) Creep Spreading and retain mapcontrol until Speedlings were out en masse. That's good because now it's essentially impossible for Terran to get any map control early. It's also the case now that Creep is over halfway across the map by 10 minutes, even if the Terran opens Hellions. If Hellion openers were overpowered, then the current state of ZvT is flat-out broken.
oh so now you speak on the terrans behalf? you don't even play their race, you really hate zerg don't you? But what would you prefer? queen buff or increase the cost of the hellion? because that's what it came down to, the hellion COST for COST had way more reward than risk because they were fast, and a simple mistake like moving your drones away from the mineral line automatically lines them up for the hellions. Also DK stated that they wanted to see more diverse strategies and openings which they started to see after the queen buff. so tell me mr. terran, what was so diverse about TvZ before the queen nerf? virtually nothing, terrans 90% of the time opened reactor hellion.
and like I said before, blizzard has numbers we don't have access to, if a win percentage spikes, we'll know about it.
But realistically, I wouldn't mind a creep nerf, just don't revert the queen range, I don't think blizzard can afford to mess with people by flip flopping.
Blizzard is wrong. It's that simple. I don't care about their ladder statistics which include shitty low Masters players that do nothing but all-in; I care about the top level. They overnerfed the Ghost and they overbuffed the Queen. If you want "diversity" in a balanced matchup, then you add options, you don't remove them. There was nothing wrong with the Hellion opener. Want to know why? Because the matchup as a whole was balanced. If, as you say, the Hellion was too rewarding, then the fact that TvZ was still balanced statistically means that some other part of the game was equally Zerg favoured. In buffing the Queen, you've only trimmed one side of the tree, so to speak.
And like I said, a slight mistake losing you the game is completely fine. Try playing a PvT or PvP, or hell, even ZvZ. One misstep loses you the game for most of the entire matchup. That's not a problem. It means that players who don't make mistakes win games, like DRG did against Terran. Didn't see him losing too often to Hellion runbys, because he's not an idiot and he actually pays attention 99% of the time.
What "diverse strategies" have been working out for Terran since the Queen buff? Marauder/Hellion all-ins? Blind 3OC? Losing in general?
I don't speak on anyone's behalf (but apparently I really touched a nerve of yours in that other thread) but I'm not sure how me thinking the Queen buff was retarded means I hate Zerg. Why would I mindlessly hate a fictional race? Plus, the Queen buff barely affects PvZ, except by making scouting more difficult (which is stupid, but manageable). It literally turned TvZ from being one of my favourite matchups to watch into being the least balanced matchup in the entire game. It's boring seeing Zergs take an early third every single game, because it's passive play. You say you hated Terrans not having diversity? Fine, but at least their sameness made things happen and forced reactions. Zergs taking a fast third is boring as fuck because it's just passive play. Seeing Creep over halfway across the map at 10 minutes is another embarrassment that should tell you right away how crucial the viability of Hellions was to the stability of the matchup.
I'm not going to just take Blizzard's word for it. They're made tonnes of retarded choices over the years, and they've consistently refused to address real issues until long overdue.
On June 14 2012 07:16 Shiori wrote: I guarantee good players like DRG weren't taking "massive damage" from Hellions.
You have no idea... Go watch game 3 of blizzard cup finals against MMA. Arena of Legends finals against MKP...
just to name a few. DRG loses to hellions more times than I can count. and I run his damn fanclub!
So because DRG loses to a Code S winner (MMA) and a crazy-good TvZ player (MKP) on certain occasions that they use Hellions, the strategy deserves to be nerfed? Look at how long ago those events were. Look at how recently the Queen was buffed. I don't recall the Hellion making it impossible for DRG to compete with MKP at the last few MLGs, despite the latter opening Hellions almost every game. Hell, I don't even recall DRG coming anywhere close to losing to them.
It's entirely reasonable that an opening should have a small chance of doing a lot of damage if the opposing player screws up. Case in point, PvZ: if I fail to simcity correctly and scout correctly, I leave myself open to Baneling Busts, Roach Rushes, and Ling Runbys. I see no reason why Zerg can't do this against Hellion openers rather than just playing standard and automatically fending them off.
I dont think you understand the point of the buff. Go watch the david kim interview by TL posted yesterday. DK said that hellions were not unbeatable, but they were too strong for their costs. They control too much of the map for basically a very cheap investment. If you don't defend perfectly, you lose the game like DRG did. The risk/reward ratio was too lopsided in Terran's favor.
Also, saying that losing to good players is an acceptable excuse to have an overpowered strategy is a really bad argument....
First off, the MU was considered the most balanced one before the lastest patch. A LOT more people are complaing now, than before. Creep spread is huge in TvZ, and hellions were basically the only way to deny it, even tho it might have been too great of a risk/reward in terran's favor, 4 range queens would have been interesting. Zergs were doing just fine vs reactor hellion builds, before patch it only delayed ur creep for a short period of time tbh.
And wtf? Making hellions is an OP strat?
yet blizzard claims it's the most balanced it's ever been.
On June 14 2012 10:01 Shiori wrote:
On June 14 2012 09:54 neoghaleon55 wrote:
On June 14 2012 09:48 Shiori wrote:
On June 14 2012 09:45 neoghaleon55 wrote:
On June 14 2012 07:16 Shiori wrote: I guarantee good players like DRG weren't taking "massive damage" from Hellions.
You have no idea... Go watch game 3 of blizzard cup finals against MMA. Arena of Legends finals against MKP...
just to name a few. DRG loses to hellions more times than I can count. and I run his damn fanclub!
So because DRG loses to a Code S winner (MMA) and a crazy-good TvZ player (MKP) on certain occasions that they use Hellions, the strategy deserves to be nerfed? Look at how long ago those events were. Look at how recently the Queen was buffed. I don't recall the Hellion making it impossible for DRG to compete with MKP at the last few MLGs, despite the latter opening Hellions almost every game. Hell, I don't even recall DRG coming anywhere close to losing to them.
It's entirely reasonable that an opening should have a small chance of doing a lot of damage if the opposing player screws up. Case in point, PvZ: if I fail to simcity correctly and scout correctly, I leave myself open to Baneling Busts, Roach Rushes, and Ling Runbys. I see no reason why Zerg can't do this against Hellion openers rather than just playing standard and automatically fending them off.
I dont think you understand the point of the buff. Go watch the david kim interview by TL posted yesterday. DK said that hellions were not unbeatable, but they were too strong for their costs. They control too much of the map for basically a very cheap investment. If you don't defend perfectly, you lose the game like DRG did. The risk/reward ratio was too lopsided in Terran's favor.
Also, saying that losing to good players is an acceptable excuse to have an overpowered strategy is a really bad argument....
You're blinded by your Zerg bias, here. Hellions were a safe opener that allowed Terrans to delay (not deny) Creep Spreading and retain mapcontrol until Speedlings were out en masse. That's good because now it's essentially impossible for Terran to get any map control early. It's also the case now that Creep is over halfway across the map by 10 minutes, even if the Terran opens Hellions. If Hellion openers were overpowered, then the current state of ZvT is flat-out broken.
oh so now you speak on the terrans behalf? you don't even play their race, you really hate zerg don't you? But what would you prefer? queen buff or increase the cost of the hellion? because that's what it came down to, the hellion COST for COST had way more reward than risk because they were fast, and a simple mistake like moving your drones away from the mineral line automatically lines them up for the hellions. Also DK stated that they wanted to see more diverse strategies and openings which they started to see after the queen buff. so tell me mr. terran, what was so diverse about TvZ before the queen nerf? virtually nothing, terrans 90% of the time opened reactor hellion.
and like I said before, blizzard has numbers we don't have access to, if a win percentage spikes, we'll know about it.
But realistically, I wouldn't mind a creep nerf, just don't revert the queen range, I don't think blizzard can afford to mess with people by flip flopping.
Blizzard is wrong. It's that simple. I don't care about their ladder statistics which include shitty low Masters players that do nothing but all-in; I care about the top level. They overnerfed the Ghost and they overbuffed the Queen. If you want "diversity" in a balanced matchup, then you add options, you don't remove them. There was nothing wrong with the Hellion opener. Want to know why? Because the matchup as a whole was balanced. If, as you say, the Hellion was too rewarding, then the fact that TvZ was still balanced statistically means that some other part of the game was equally Zerg favoured. In buffing the Queen, you've only trimmed one side of the tree, so to speak.
And like I said, a slight mistake losing you the game is completely fine. Try playing a PvT or PvP, or hell, even ZvZ. One misstep loses you the game for most of the entire matchup. That's not a problem. It means that players who don't make mistakes win games, like DRG did against Terran. Didn't see him losing too often to Hellion runbys, because he's not an idiot and he actually pays attention 99% of the time.
What "diverse strategies" have been working out for Terran since the Queen buff? Marauder/Hellion all-ins? Blind 3OC? Losing in general?
I don't speak on anyone's behalf (but apparently I really touched a nerve of yours in that other thread) but I'm not sure how me thinking the Queen buff was retarded means I hate Zerg. Why would I mindlessly hate a fictional race? Plus, the Queen buff barely affects PvZ, except by making scouting more difficult (which is stupid, but manageable). It literally turned TvZ from being one of my favourite matchups to watch into being the least balanced matchup in the entire game. It's boring seeing Zergs take an early third every single game, because it's passive play. You say you hated Terrans not having diversity? Fine, but at least their sameness made things happen and forced reactions. Zergs taking a fast third is boring as fuck because it's just passive play. Seeing Creep over halfway across the map at 10 minutes is another embarrassment that should tell you right away how crucial the viability of Hellions was to the stability of the matchup.
I'm not going to just take Blizzard's word for it. They're made tonnes of retarded choices over the years, and they've consistently refused to address real issues until long overdue.
I love your posts shiori... you're so passionate! <3
Actually, I think Terran could use a late game buff. I would love to see either battle cruiser buff or raven buff. Hunter Seeker right now costs too much energy at 125. I'd be fine with 100. That should deal with infestor brood combination.
A buff to Cruisers by lowering costs or build time would be helpful against protoss zealot archon stuff.
On June 14 2012 07:16 Shiori wrote: I guarantee good players like DRG weren't taking "massive damage" from Hellions.
You have no idea... Go watch game 3 of blizzard cup finals against MMA. Arena of Legends finals against MKP...
just to name a few. DRG loses to hellions more times than I can count. and I run his damn fanclub!
So because DRG loses to a Code S winner (MMA) and a crazy-good TvZ player (MKP) on certain occasions that they use Hellions, the strategy deserves to be nerfed? Look at how long ago those events were. Look at how recently the Queen was buffed. I don't recall the Hellion making it impossible for DRG to compete with MKP at the last few MLGs, despite the latter opening Hellions almost every game. Hell, I don't even recall DRG coming anywhere close to losing to them.
It's entirely reasonable that an opening should have a small chance of doing a lot of damage if the opposing player screws up. Case in point, PvZ: if I fail to simcity correctly and scout correctly, I leave myself open to Baneling Busts, Roach Rushes, and Ling Runbys. I see no reason why Zerg can't do this against Hellion openers rather than just playing standard and automatically fending them off.
I dont think you understand the point of the buff. Go watch the david kim interview by TL posted yesterday. DK said that hellions were not unbeatable, but they were too strong for their costs. They control too much of the map for basically a very cheap investment. If you don't defend perfectly, you lose the game like DRG did. The risk/reward ratio was too lopsided in Terran's favor.
Also, saying that losing to good players is an acceptable excuse to have an overpowered strategy is a really bad argument....
First off, the MU was considered the most balanced one before the lastest patch. A LOT more people are complaing now, than before. Creep spread is huge in TvZ, and hellions were basically the only way to deny it, even tho it might have been too great of a risk/reward in terran's favor, 4 range queens would have been interesting. Zergs were doing just fine vs reactor hellion builds, before patch it only delayed ur creep for a short period of time tbh.
And wtf? Making hellions is an OP strat?
yet blizzard claims it's the most balanced it's ever been.
On June 14 2012 10:01 Shiori wrote:
On June 14 2012 09:54 neoghaleon55 wrote:
On June 14 2012 09:48 Shiori wrote:
On June 14 2012 09:45 neoghaleon55 wrote:
On June 14 2012 07:16 Shiori wrote: I guarantee good players like DRG weren't taking "massive damage" from Hellions.
You have no idea... Go watch game 3 of blizzard cup finals against MMA. Arena of Legends finals against MKP...
just to name a few. DRG loses to hellions more times than I can count. and I run his damn fanclub!
So because DRG loses to a Code S winner (MMA) and a crazy-good TvZ player (MKP) on certain occasions that they use Hellions, the strategy deserves to be nerfed? Look at how long ago those events were. Look at how recently the Queen was buffed. I don't recall the Hellion making it impossible for DRG to compete with MKP at the last few MLGs, despite the latter opening Hellions almost every game. Hell, I don't even recall DRG coming anywhere close to losing to them.
It's entirely reasonable that an opening should have a small chance of doing a lot of damage if the opposing player screws up. Case in point, PvZ: if I fail to simcity correctly and scout correctly, I leave myself open to Baneling Busts, Roach Rushes, and Ling Runbys. I see no reason why Zerg can't do this against Hellion openers rather than just playing standard and automatically fending them off.
I dont think you understand the point of the buff. Go watch the david kim interview by TL posted yesterday. DK said that hellions were not unbeatable, but they were too strong for their costs. They control too much of the map for basically a very cheap investment. If you don't defend perfectly, you lose the game like DRG did. The risk/reward ratio was too lopsided in Terran's favor.
Also, saying that losing to good players is an acceptable excuse to have an overpowered strategy is a really bad argument....
You're blinded by your Zerg bias, here. Hellions were a safe opener that allowed Terrans to delay (not deny) Creep Spreading and retain mapcontrol until Speedlings were out en masse. That's good because now it's essentially impossible for Terran to get any map control early. It's also the case now that Creep is over halfway across the map by 10 minutes, even if the Terran opens Hellions. If Hellion openers were overpowered, then the current state of ZvT is flat-out broken.
oh so now you speak on the terrans behalf? you don't even play their race, you really hate zerg don't you? But what would you prefer? queen buff or increase the cost of the hellion? because that's what it came down to, the hellion COST for COST had way more reward than risk because they were fast, and a simple mistake like moving your drones away from the mineral line automatically lines them up for the hellions. Also DK stated that they wanted to see more diverse strategies and openings which they started to see after the queen buff. so tell me mr. terran, what was so diverse about TvZ before the queen nerf? virtually nothing, terrans 90% of the time opened reactor hellion.
and like I said before, blizzard has numbers we don't have access to, if a win percentage spikes, we'll know about it.
But realistically, I wouldn't mind a creep nerf, just don't revert the queen range, I don't think blizzard can afford to mess with people by flip flopping.
Blizzard is wrong. It's that simple. I don't care about their ladder statistics which include shitty low Masters players that do nothing but all-in; I care about the top level. They overnerfed the Ghost and they overbuffed the Queen. If you want "diversity" in a balanced matchup, then you add options, you don't remove them. There was nothing wrong with the Hellion opener. Want to know why? Because the matchup as a whole was balanced. If, as you say, the Hellion was too rewarding, then the fact that TvZ was still balanced statistically means that some other part of the game was equally Zerg favoured. In buffing the Queen, you've only trimmed one side of the tree, so to speak.
And like I said, a slight mistake losing you the game is completely fine. Try playing a PvT or PvP, or hell, even ZvZ. One misstep loses you the game for most of the entire matchup. That's not a problem. It means that players who don't make mistakes win games, like DRG did against Terran. Didn't see him losing too often to Hellion runbys, because he's not an idiot and he actually pays attention 99% of the time.
What "diverse strategies" have been working out for Terran since the Queen buff? Marauder/Hellion all-ins? Blind 3OC? Losing in general?
I don't speak on anyone's behalf (but apparently I really touched a nerve of yours in that other thread) but I'm not sure how me thinking the Queen buff was retarded means I hate Zerg. Why would I mindlessly hate a fictional race? Plus, the Queen buff barely affects PvZ, except by making scouting more difficult (which is stupid, but manageable). It literally turned TvZ from being one of my favourite matchups to watch into being the least balanced matchup in the entire game. It's boring seeing Zergs take an early third every single game, because it's passive play. You say you hated Terrans not having diversity? Fine, but at least their sameness made things happen and forced reactions. Zergs taking a fast third is boring as fuck because it's just passive play. Seeing Creep over halfway across the map at 10 minutes is another embarrassment that should tell you right away how crucial the viability of Hellions was to the stability of the matchup.
I'm not going to just take Blizzard's word for it. They're made tonnes of retarded choices over the years, and they've consistently refused to address real issues until long overdue.
I love your posts shiori... you're so passionate! <3
Actually, I think Terran could use a late game buff. I would love to see either battle cruiser buff or raven buff. Hunter Seeker right now costs too much energy at 125. I'd be fine with 100. That should deal with infestor brood combination.
A buff to Cruisers by lowering costs or build time would be helpful against protoss zealot archon stuff.
Haha. I wouldn't even be upset if there had been some buffs given to the other races to deal with Infestor/BL. I don't even really fault Blizzard if the buff doesn't work. I just want them to acknowledge that there's an actual problem and at least try to fix it.
On June 14 2012 07:16 Shiori wrote: I guarantee good players like DRG weren't taking "massive damage" from Hellions.
You have no idea... Go watch game 3 of blizzard cup finals against MMA. Arena of Legends finals against MKP...
just to name a few. DRG loses to hellions more times than I can count. and I run his damn fanclub!
So because DRG loses to a Code S winner (MMA) and a crazy-good TvZ player (MKP) on certain occasions that they use Hellions, the strategy deserves to be nerfed? Look at how long ago those events were. Look at how recently the Queen was buffed. I don't recall the Hellion making it impossible for DRG to compete with MKP at the last few MLGs, despite the latter opening Hellions almost every game. Hell, I don't even recall DRG coming anywhere close to losing to them.
It's entirely reasonable that an opening should have a small chance of doing a lot of damage if the opposing player screws up. Case in point, PvZ: if I fail to simcity correctly and scout correctly, I leave myself open to Baneling Busts, Roach Rushes, and Ling Runbys. I see no reason why Zerg can't do this against Hellion openers rather than just playing standard and automatically fending them off.
I dont think you understand the point of the buff. Go watch the david kim interview by TL posted yesterday. DK said that hellions were not unbeatable, but they were too strong for their costs. They control too much of the map for basically a very cheap investment. If you don't defend perfectly, you lose the game like DRG did. The risk/reward ratio was too lopsided in Terran's favor.
Also, saying that losing to good players is an acceptable excuse to have an overpowered strategy is a really bad argument....
First off, the MU was considered the most balanced one before the lastest patch. A LOT more people are complaing now, than before. Creep spread is huge in TvZ, and hellions were basically the only way to deny it, even tho it might have been too great of a risk/reward in terran's favor, 4 range queens would have been interesting. Zergs were doing just fine vs reactor hellion builds, before patch it only delayed ur creep for a short period of time tbh.
And wtf? Making hellions is an OP strat?
yet blizzard claims it's the most balanced it's ever been.
On June 14 2012 10:01 Shiori wrote:
On June 14 2012 09:54 neoghaleon55 wrote:
On June 14 2012 09:48 Shiori wrote:
On June 14 2012 09:45 neoghaleon55 wrote:
On June 14 2012 07:16 Shiori wrote: I guarantee good players like DRG weren't taking "massive damage" from Hellions.
You have no idea... Go watch game 3 of blizzard cup finals against MMA. Arena of Legends finals against MKP...
just to name a few. DRG loses to hellions more times than I can count. and I run his damn fanclub!
So because DRG loses to a Code S winner (MMA) and a crazy-good TvZ player (MKP) on certain occasions that they use Hellions, the strategy deserves to be nerfed? Look at how long ago those events were. Look at how recently the Queen was buffed. I don't recall the Hellion making it impossible for DRG to compete with MKP at the last few MLGs, despite the latter opening Hellions almost every game. Hell, I don't even recall DRG coming anywhere close to losing to them.
It's entirely reasonable that an opening should have a small chance of doing a lot of damage if the opposing player screws up. Case in point, PvZ: if I fail to simcity correctly and scout correctly, I leave myself open to Baneling Busts, Roach Rushes, and Ling Runbys. I see no reason why Zerg can't do this against Hellion openers rather than just playing standard and automatically fending them off.
I dont think you understand the point of the buff. Go watch the david kim interview by TL posted yesterday. DK said that hellions were not unbeatable, but they were too strong for their costs. They control too much of the map for basically a very cheap investment. If you don't defend perfectly, you lose the game like DRG did. The risk/reward ratio was too lopsided in Terran's favor.
Also, saying that losing to good players is an acceptable excuse to have an overpowered strategy is a really bad argument....
You're blinded by your Zerg bias, here. Hellions were a safe opener that allowed Terrans to delay (not deny) Creep Spreading and retain mapcontrol until Speedlings were out en masse. That's good because now it's essentially impossible for Terran to get any map control early. It's also the case now that Creep is over halfway across the map by 10 minutes, even if the Terran opens Hellions. If Hellion openers were overpowered, then the current state of ZvT is flat-out broken.
oh so now you speak on the terrans behalf? you don't even play their race, you really hate zerg don't you? But what would you prefer? queen buff or increase the cost of the hellion? because that's what it came down to, the hellion COST for COST had way more reward than risk because they were fast, and a simple mistake like moving your drones away from the mineral line automatically lines them up for the hellions. Also DK stated that they wanted to see more diverse strategies and openings which they started to see after the queen buff. so tell me mr. terran, what was so diverse about TvZ before the queen nerf? virtually nothing, terrans 90% of the time opened reactor hellion.
and like I said before, blizzard has numbers we don't have access to, if a win percentage spikes, we'll know about it.
But realistically, I wouldn't mind a creep nerf, just don't revert the queen range, I don't think blizzard can afford to mess with people by flip flopping.
Blizzard is wrong. It's that simple. I don't care about their ladder statistics which include shitty low Masters players that do nothing but all-in; I care about the top level. They overnerfed the Ghost and they overbuffed the Queen. If you want "diversity" in a balanced matchup, then you add options, you don't remove them. There was nothing wrong with the Hellion opener. Want to know why? Because the matchup as a whole was balanced. If, as you say, the Hellion was too rewarding, then the fact that TvZ was still balanced statistically means that some other part of the game was equally Zerg favoured. In buffing the Queen, you've only trimmed one side of the tree, so to speak.
And like I said, a slight mistake losing you the game is completely fine. Try playing a PvT or PvP, or hell, even ZvZ. One misstep loses you the game for most of the entire matchup. That's not a problem. It means that players who don't make mistakes win games, like DRG did against Terran. Didn't see him losing too often to Hellion runbys, because he's not an idiot and he actually pays attention 99% of the time.
What "diverse strategies" have been working out for Terran since the Queen buff? Marauder/Hellion all-ins? Blind 3OC? Losing in general?
I don't speak on anyone's behalf (but apparently I really touched a nerve of yours in that other thread) but I'm not sure how me thinking the Queen buff was retarded means I hate Zerg. Why would I mindlessly hate a fictional race? Plus, the Queen buff barely affects PvZ, except by making scouting more difficult (which is stupid, but manageable). It literally turned TvZ from being one of my favourite matchups to watch into being the least balanced matchup in the entire game. It's boring seeing Zergs take an early third every single game, because it's passive play. You say you hated Terrans not having diversity? Fine, but at least their sameness made things happen and forced reactions. Zergs taking a fast third is boring as fuck because it's just passive play. Seeing Creep over halfway across the map at 10 minutes is another embarrassment that should tell you right away how crucial the viability of Hellions was to the stability of the matchup.
I'm not going to just take Blizzard's word for it. They're made tonnes of retarded choices over the years, and they've consistently refused to address real issues until long overdue.
problem is you believe that the game is balanced for the highest level but it's not, it's balanced for all levels. So those stats where shitty masters players all-in, is TAKEN into account. Whether you like it or not, blizzard HAS to do this, it's their imperative that the game isn't impossible to play at a bronze level all the way to GM. Blizzard does their balancing when they feel that there is an imbalance on ALL levels.
maybe DRG can handle hellions with 3 range queens, but obviously not everyone is DRG, even GM's and GSL level players couldn't handle 2 reactor hellion all-ins if the terran stopped scouting perfectly and the zerg didn't blindly make roaches, so how would a bronze player stop it?
Look I know you don't like it, but it's their method, and it won't change, it just won't happen.
the diverse strategies I was thinking of were GSL players recently using banshee/raven as an opener, sounds pretty fucking diverse to me, never heard of an opener like that before 5 range. OR qxc's unique bunker at the bottom of the ramp with hellions just to stop creep spread. Yeah, terrans got creative... well, some did, the ones who don't get left in the dust.
The problem with infestor/brood vs Terran is that it's very hard to respond to it. As a Zerg, if I see Terrans pre-emptively making vikings, I won't make any broodlords and go full ultralisk/baneling first and there's really nothing the Terran can do.
QXC stated that late game terran forces terran to blindly counter, if Terran guesses wrong, then they're screwed. I really don't like this dynamic either.
My favorite Terran response to infestor/broodlord has been MMA's mass drop harass style like DRG vs MMA game 7 Blizzard Cup.If you abuse the mobility of infestor/broods, you can take out most of the zerg's expansions so they cannot reinforce.
Of course, that can still backfire just like DRG vs. Gumiho GSL S1 semifinals game 3, where DRG literally lost everything in his main base to drops, but the broodlords still killed Gumiho....
On June 14 2012 07:16 Shiori wrote: I guarantee good players like DRG weren't taking "massive damage" from Hellions.
You have no idea... Go watch game 3 of blizzard cup finals against MMA. Arena of Legends finals against MKP...
just to name a few. DRG loses to hellions more times than I can count. and I run his damn fanclub!
So because DRG loses to a Code S winner (MMA) and a crazy-good TvZ player (MKP) on certain occasions that they use Hellions, the strategy deserves to be nerfed? Look at how long ago those events were. Look at how recently the Queen was buffed. I don't recall the Hellion making it impossible for DRG to compete with MKP at the last few MLGs, despite the latter opening Hellions almost every game. Hell, I don't even recall DRG coming anywhere close to losing to them.
It's entirely reasonable that an opening should have a small chance of doing a lot of damage if the opposing player screws up. Case in point, PvZ: if I fail to simcity correctly and scout correctly, I leave myself open to Baneling Busts, Roach Rushes, and Ling Runbys. I see no reason why Zerg can't do this against Hellion openers rather than just playing standard and automatically fending them off.
I dont think you understand the point of the buff. Go watch the david kim interview by TL posted yesterday. DK said that hellions were not unbeatable, but they were too strong for their costs. They control too much of the map for basically a very cheap investment. If you don't defend perfectly, you lose the game like DRG did. The risk/reward ratio was too lopsided in Terran's favor.
Also, saying that losing to good players is an acceptable excuse to have an overpowered strategy is a really bad argument....
First off, the MU was considered the most balanced one before the lastest patch. A LOT more people are complaing now, than before. Creep spread is huge in TvZ, and hellions were basically the only way to deny it, even tho it might have been too great of a risk/reward in terran's favor, 4 range queens would have been interesting. Zergs were doing just fine vs reactor hellion builds, before patch it only delayed ur creep for a short period of time tbh.
And wtf? Making hellions is an OP strat?
yet blizzard claims it's the most balanced it's ever been.
On June 14 2012 10:01 Shiori wrote:
On June 14 2012 09:54 neoghaleon55 wrote:
On June 14 2012 09:48 Shiori wrote:
On June 14 2012 09:45 neoghaleon55 wrote:
On June 14 2012 07:16 Shiori wrote: I guarantee good players like DRG weren't taking "massive damage" from Hellions.
You have no idea... Go watch game 3 of blizzard cup finals against MMA. Arena of Legends finals against MKP...
just to name a few. DRG loses to hellions more times than I can count. and I run his damn fanclub!
So because DRG loses to a Code S winner (MMA) and a crazy-good TvZ player (MKP) on certain occasions that they use Hellions, the strategy deserves to be nerfed? Look at how long ago those events were. Look at how recently the Queen was buffed. I don't recall the Hellion making it impossible for DRG to compete with MKP at the last few MLGs, despite the latter opening Hellions almost every game. Hell, I don't even recall DRG coming anywhere close to losing to them.
It's entirely reasonable that an opening should have a small chance of doing a lot of damage if the opposing player screws up. Case in point, PvZ: if I fail to simcity correctly and scout correctly, I leave myself open to Baneling Busts, Roach Rushes, and Ling Runbys. I see no reason why Zerg can't do this against Hellion openers rather than just playing standard and automatically fending them off.
I dont think you understand the point of the buff. Go watch the david kim interview by TL posted yesterday. DK said that hellions were not unbeatable, but they were too strong for their costs. They control too much of the map for basically a very cheap investment. If you don't defend perfectly, you lose the game like DRG did. The risk/reward ratio was too lopsided in Terran's favor.
Also, saying that losing to good players is an acceptable excuse to have an overpowered strategy is a really bad argument....
You're blinded by your Zerg bias, here. Hellions were a safe opener that allowed Terrans to delay (not deny) Creep Spreading and retain mapcontrol until Speedlings were out en masse. That's good because now it's essentially impossible for Terran to get any map control early. It's also the case now that Creep is over halfway across the map by 10 minutes, even if the Terran opens Hellions. If Hellion openers were overpowered, then the current state of ZvT is flat-out broken.
oh so now you speak on the terrans behalf? you don't even play their race, you really hate zerg don't you? But what would you prefer? queen buff or increase the cost of the hellion? because that's what it came down to, the hellion COST for COST had way more reward than risk because they were fast, and a simple mistake like moving your drones away from the mineral line automatically lines them up for the hellions. Also DK stated that they wanted to see more diverse strategies and openings which they started to see after the queen buff. so tell me mr. terran, what was so diverse about TvZ before the queen nerf? virtually nothing, terrans 90% of the time opened reactor hellion.
and like I said before, blizzard has numbers we don't have access to, if a win percentage spikes, we'll know about it.
But realistically, I wouldn't mind a creep nerf, just don't revert the queen range, I don't think blizzard can afford to mess with people by flip flopping.
Blizzard is wrong. It's that simple. I don't care about their ladder statistics which include shitty low Masters players that do nothing but all-in; I care about the top level. They overnerfed the Ghost and they overbuffed the Queen. If you want "diversity" in a balanced matchup, then you add options, you don't remove them. There was nothing wrong with the Hellion opener. Want to know why? Because the matchup as a whole was balanced. If, as you say, the Hellion was too rewarding, then the fact that TvZ was still balanced statistically means that some other part of the game was equally Zerg favoured. In buffing the Queen, you've only trimmed one side of the tree, so to speak.
And like I said, a slight mistake losing you the game is completely fine. Try playing a PvT or PvP, or hell, even ZvZ. One misstep loses you the game for most of the entire matchup. That's not a problem. It means that players who don't make mistakes win games, like DRG did against Terran. Didn't see him losing too often to Hellion runbys, because he's not an idiot and he actually pays attention 99% of the time.
What "diverse strategies" have been working out for Terran since the Queen buff? Marauder/Hellion all-ins? Blind 3OC? Losing in general?
I don't speak on anyone's behalf (but apparently I really touched a nerve of yours in that other thread) but I'm not sure how me thinking the Queen buff was retarded means I hate Zerg. Why would I mindlessly hate a fictional race? Plus, the Queen buff barely affects PvZ, except by making scouting more difficult (which is stupid, but manageable). It literally turned TvZ from being one of my favourite matchups to watch into being the least balanced matchup in the entire game. It's boring seeing Zergs take an early third every single game, because it's passive play. You say you hated Terrans not having diversity? Fine, but at least their sameness made things happen and forced reactions. Zergs taking a fast third is boring as fuck because it's just passive play. Seeing Creep over halfway across the map at 10 minutes is another embarrassment that should tell you right away how crucial the viability of Hellions was to the stability of the matchup.
I'm not going to just take Blizzard's word for it. They're made tonnes of retarded choices over the years, and they've consistently refused to address real issues until long overdue.
problem is you believe that the game is balanced for the highest level but it's not, it's balanced for all levels. So those stats where shitty masters players all-in, is TAKEN into account. Whether you like it or not, blizzard HAS to do this, it's their imperative that the game isn't impossible to play at a bronze level all the way to GM. Blizzard does their balancing when they feel that there is an imbalance on ALL levels.
maybe DRG can handle hellions with 3 range queens, but obviously not everyone is DRG, even GM's and GSL level players couldn't handle 2 reactor hellion all-ins if the terran stopped scouting perfectly and the zerg didn't blindly make roaches, so how would a bronze player stop it?
Look I know you don't like it, but it's their method, and can't change it, won't happen.
Because players in Bronze are literally fucking irrelevant to balance. Do you know what's overpowered in Bronze? Skill. Building workers. Making units. Not getting supply blocked. I could make any build look overpowered in Bronze. Do you think any Bronze player is going to think reactored Hellions are OP, or are they just going to think whatever popular strategy they meet is overpowered?
The game was never impossible to play at any level. Zerg is always going to be the hardest at Platinum and lower just because of macro mechanics, but you're acting like pre-Hellion nerf Zerg was never winning on the ladder. How about 3base Roach? Do you advocate a nerf to that just because any Protoss without perfect FFs is going to die to it?
There was no imbalance with Hellions at the pro level, so your first premise is flawed anyways.
PS. QXC bunker strat was a gimmick and wont work against top players anymore, Raven is a new opening I'll grant you that, but Hellion openers were transitioning into standard bio, Banshees, mech, and all kinds of stuff. Not sure how that isn't diverse.
On June 17 2012 06:06 neoghaleon55 wrote: The problem with infestor/brood vs Terran is that it's very hard to respond to it. As a Zerg, if I see Terrans pre-emptively making vikings, I won't make any broodlords and go full ultralisk/baneling first and there's really nothing the Terran can do.
QXC stated that late game terran forces terran to blindly counter, if Terran guesses wrong, then they're screwed. I really don't like this dynamic either.
My favorite Terran response to infestor/broodlord has been MMA's mass drop harass style like DRG vs MMA game 7 Blizzard Cup.If you abuse the mobility of infestor/broods, you can take out most of the zerg's expansions so they cannot reinforce.
Of course, that can still backfire just like DRG vs. Gumiho GSL S1 semifinals game 3, where DRG literally lost everything in his main base to drops, but the broodlords still killed Gumiho....
It's very weird.
so there is a method of circumventing the army and defeating the zerg from within, that means the late game isn't impossible, it's hard sure, but not impossible. I've seen terrans try this in TvT when they have bio going against a pure mech army, or zerg base trading against a superior protoss death ball, circumventing an army by abusing your mobility is nothing new and is a legitimate way to play the game.
I also think DRG is a much much more superior player than Gumiho though, Gumiho hasn't really been up to par since his 4th place finish a few GSLs ago, where as DRG has been much more consistent at a high level, so I think Gumi's loss could be attributed to not to just the unit composition, but the decisions he made before and after that phase of the game.
yet blizzard claims it's the most balanced it's ever been.
Where exactly di they say that. Since you know june tournaments results showed TvZ at 45%(worse results since July last year) and it looks even worse this month right now (MLG, TSL Korean qualifier wit 40 % TvZ)
On June 17 2012 05:32 emc wrote:
oh so now you speak on the terrans behalf? you don't even play their race, you really hate zerg don't you? But what would you prefer? queen buff or increase the cost of the hellion? because that's what it came down to, the hellion COST for COST had way more reward than risk because they were fast, and a simple mistake like moving your drones away from the mineral line automatically lines them up for the hellions. Also DK stated that they wanted to see more diverse strategies and openings which they started to see after the queen buff. so tell me mr. terran, what was so diverse about TvZ before the queen nerf? virtually nothing, terrans 90% of the time opened reactor hellion.
Or they had possibility to change nothing since tvZ was considered balanced and best matchup in the game
On June 17 2012 05:32 emc wrote: and like I said before, blizzard has numbers we don't have access to, if a win percentage spikes, we'll know about it.
How exactly we will know? They published ladder stats twice in almost two years
On June 14 2012 07:16 Shiori wrote: I guarantee good players like DRG weren't taking "massive damage" from Hellions.
You have no idea... Go watch game 3 of blizzard cup finals against MMA. Arena of Legends finals against MKP...
just to name a few. DRG loses to hellions more times than I can count. and I run his damn fanclub!
So because DRG loses to a Code S winner (MMA) and a crazy-good TvZ player (MKP) on certain occasions that they use Hellions, the strategy deserves to be nerfed? Look at how long ago those events were. Look at how recently the Queen was buffed. I don't recall the Hellion making it impossible for DRG to compete with MKP at the last few MLGs, despite the latter opening Hellions almost every game. Hell, I don't even recall DRG coming anywhere close to losing to them.
It's entirely reasonable that an opening should have a small chance of doing a lot of damage if the opposing player screws up. Case in point, PvZ: if I fail to simcity correctly and scout correctly, I leave myself open to Baneling Busts, Roach Rushes, and Ling Runbys. I see no reason why Zerg can't do this against Hellion openers rather than just playing standard and automatically fending them off.
I dont think you understand the point of the buff. Go watch the david kim interview by TL posted yesterday. DK said that hellions were not unbeatable, but they were too strong for their costs. They control too much of the map for basically a very cheap investment. If you don't defend perfectly, you lose the game like DRG did. The risk/reward ratio was too lopsided in Terran's favor.
Also, saying that losing to good players is an acceptable excuse to have an overpowered strategy is a really bad argument....
First off, the MU was considered the most balanced one before the lastest patch. A LOT more people are complaing now, than before. Creep spread is huge in TvZ, and hellions were basically the only way to deny it, even tho it might have been too great of a risk/reward in terran's favor, 4 range queens would have been interesting. Zergs were doing just fine vs reactor hellion builds, before patch it only delayed ur creep for a short period of time tbh.
And wtf? Making hellions is an OP strat?
yet blizzard claims it's the most balanced it's ever been.
On June 14 2012 10:01 Shiori wrote:
On June 14 2012 09:54 neoghaleon55 wrote:
On June 14 2012 09:48 Shiori wrote:
On June 14 2012 09:45 neoghaleon55 wrote:
On June 14 2012 07:16 Shiori wrote: I guarantee good players like DRG weren't taking "massive damage" from Hellions.
You have no idea... Go watch game 3 of blizzard cup finals against MMA. Arena of Legends finals against MKP...
just to name a few. DRG loses to hellions more times than I can count. and I run his damn fanclub!
So because DRG loses to a Code S winner (MMA) and a crazy-good TvZ player (MKP) on certain occasions that they use Hellions, the strategy deserves to be nerfed? Look at how long ago those events were. Look at how recently the Queen was buffed. I don't recall the Hellion making it impossible for DRG to compete with MKP at the last few MLGs, despite the latter opening Hellions almost every game. Hell, I don't even recall DRG coming anywhere close to losing to them.
It's entirely reasonable that an opening should have a small chance of doing a lot of damage if the opposing player screws up. Case in point, PvZ: if I fail to simcity correctly and scout correctly, I leave myself open to Baneling Busts, Roach Rushes, and Ling Runbys. I see no reason why Zerg can't do this against Hellion openers rather than just playing standard and automatically fending them off.
I dont think you understand the point of the buff. Go watch the david kim interview by TL posted yesterday. DK said that hellions were not unbeatable, but they were too strong for their costs. They control too much of the map for basically a very cheap investment. If you don't defend perfectly, you lose the game like DRG did. The risk/reward ratio was too lopsided in Terran's favor.
Also, saying that losing to good players is an acceptable excuse to have an overpowered strategy is a really bad argument....
You're blinded by your Zerg bias, here. Hellions were a safe opener that allowed Terrans to delay (not deny) Creep Spreading and retain mapcontrol until Speedlings were out en masse. That's good because now it's essentially impossible for Terran to get any map control early. It's also the case now that Creep is over halfway across the map by 10 minutes, even if the Terran opens Hellions. If Hellion openers were overpowered, then the current state of ZvT is flat-out broken.
oh so now you speak on the terrans behalf? you don't even play their race, you really hate zerg don't you? But what would you prefer? queen buff or increase the cost of the hellion? because that's what it came down to, the hellion COST for COST had way more reward than risk because they were fast, and a simple mistake like moving your drones away from the mineral line automatically lines them up for the hellions. Also DK stated that they wanted to see more diverse strategies and openings which they started to see after the queen buff. so tell me mr. terran, what was so diverse about TvZ before the queen nerf? virtually nothing, terrans 90% of the time opened reactor hellion.
and like I said before, blizzard has numbers we don't have access to, if a win percentage spikes, we'll know about it.
But realistically, I wouldn't mind a creep nerf, just don't revert the queen range, I don't think blizzard can afford to mess with people by flip flopping.
Blizzard is wrong. It's that simple. I don't care about their ladder statistics which include shitty low Masters players that do nothing but all-in; I care about the top level. They overnerfed the Ghost and they overbuffed the Queen. If you want "diversity" in a balanced matchup, then you add options, you don't remove them. There was nothing wrong with the Hellion opener. Want to know why? Because the matchup as a whole was balanced. If, as you say, the Hellion was too rewarding, then the fact that TvZ was still balanced statistically means that some other part of the game was equally Zerg favoured. In buffing the Queen, you've only trimmed one side of the tree, so to speak.
And like I said, a slight mistake losing you the game is completely fine. Try playing a PvT or PvP, or hell, even ZvZ. One misstep loses you the game for most of the entire matchup. That's not a problem. It means that players who don't make mistakes win games, like DRG did against Terran. Didn't see him losing too often to Hellion runbys, because he's not an idiot and he actually pays attention 99% of the time.
What "diverse strategies" have been working out for Terran since the Queen buff? Marauder/Hellion all-ins? Blind 3OC? Losing in general?
I don't speak on anyone's behalf (but apparently I really touched a nerve of yours in that other thread) but I'm not sure how me thinking the Queen buff was retarded means I hate Zerg. Why would I mindlessly hate a fictional race? Plus, the Queen buff barely affects PvZ, except by making scouting more difficult (which is stupid, but manageable). It literally turned TvZ from being one of my favourite matchups to watch into being the least balanced matchup in the entire game. It's boring seeing Zergs take an early third every single game, because it's passive play. You say you hated Terrans not having diversity? Fine, but at least their sameness made things happen and forced reactions. Zergs taking a fast third is boring as fuck because it's just passive play. Seeing Creep over halfway across the map at 10 minutes is another embarrassment that should tell you right away how crucial the viability of Hellions was to the stability of the matchup.
I'm not going to just take Blizzard's word for it. They're made tonnes of retarded choices over the years, and they've consistently refused to address real issues until long overdue.
problem is you believe that the game is balanced for the highest level but it's not, it's balanced for all levels. So those stats where shitty masters players all-in, is TAKEN into account. Whether you like it or not, blizzard HAS to do this, it's their imperative that the game isn't impossible to play at a bronze level all the way to GM. Blizzard does their balancing when they feel that there is an imbalance on ALL levels.
maybe DRG can handle hellions with 3 range queens, but obviously not everyone is DRG, even GM's and GSL level players couldn't handle 2 reactor hellion all-ins if the terran stopped scouting perfectly and the zerg didn't blindly make roaches, so how would a bronze player stop it?
Look I know you don't like it, but it's their method, and can't change it, won't happen.
Because players in Bronze are literally fucking irrelevant to balance. Do you know what's overpowered in Bronze? Skill. Building workers. Making units. Not getting supply blocked. I could make any build look overpowered in Bronze. Do you think any Bronze player is going to think reactored Hellions are OP, or are they just going to think whatever popular strategy they meet is overpowered?
The game was never impossible to play at any level. Zerg is always going to be the hardest at Platinum and lower just because of macro mechanics, but you're acting like pre-Hellion nerf Zerg was never winning on the ladder. How about 3base Roach? Do you advocate a nerf to that just because any Protoss without perfect FFs is going to die to it?
There was no imbalance with Hellions at the pro level, so your first premise is flawed anyways.
PS. QXC bunker strat was a gimmick and wont work against top players anymore, Raven is a new opening I'll grant you that, but Hellion openers were transitioning into standard bio, Banshees, mech, and all kinds of stuff. Not sure how that isn't diverse.
that was kind of the problem, hellion openers allowed ANY style to be used after and the thing with hellions is they are so fast that they catch any zergling scouts if you are skilled enough, and you have marines to deny overlord scouting, so a perfect playing terran can catch a zerg off guard with any unit combination.
I never said it was impossible, when did I say that? I said if the terran was good enough they can deny scouts and make it very hard to see whats coming, making any multi-factory hellion all-in very strong.
you are right, bronze players are zero indicator of balance but I never said I liked blizzards method, I was simply explaining to you because you seem to have forgotten that blizzard is a company that needs to make money and making money means selling your game to customers which means you must sell to the lowest common denominator. As I said before, I'M SORRY IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE WAY BLIZZARD BALANCES THE GAME, but that's how they do it son.
but you have to admit it's pretty impressive that blizzard is seeing 50% win rates across the board, bronze - GM, I mean how is that even possible right? well apparently it is, so kudos to them.
problem is you believe that the game is balanced for the highest level but it's not, it's balanced for all levels. So those stats where shitty masters players all-in, is TAKEN into account. Whether you like it or not, blizzard HAS to do this, it's their imperative that the game isn't impossible to play at a bronze level all the way to GM. Blizzard does their balancing when they feel that there is an imbalance on ALL levels.
maybe DRG can handle hellions with 3 range queens, but obviously not everyone is DRG, even GM's and GSL level players couldn't handle 2 reactor hellion all-ins if the terran stopped scouting perfectly and the zerg didn't blindly make roaches, so how would a bronze player stop it?
Look I know you don't like it, but it's their method, and it won't change, it just won't happen.
the diverse strategies I was thinking of were GSL players recently using banshee/raven as an opener, sounds pretty fucking diverse to me, never heard of an opener like that before 5 range. OR qxc's unique bunker at the bottom of the ramp with hellions just to stop creep spread. Yeah, terrans got creative... well, some did, the ones who don't get left in the dust.
You really sugesting that Zerg nedded help againts Terran on lower levels? This is why higher ladder leagues are recently swarmed with Zergs and Terran numbers are as low as ever?
What help do you suggest for ladder Terrans who cant split marines againts banelgings like MKP, banegling speed nerf?
I also think DRG is a much much more superior player than Gumiho though, Gumiho hasn't really been up to par since his 4th place finish a few GSLs ago, where as DRG has been much more consistent at a high level, so I think Gumi's loss could be attributed to not to just the unit composition, but the decisions he made before and after that phase of the game.
Oh you don't need to tell me how good DRG is...I run his fan club.
On June 14 2012 07:16 Shiori wrote: I guarantee good players like DRG weren't taking "massive damage" from Hellions.
You have no idea... Go watch game 3 of blizzard cup finals against MMA. Arena of Legends finals against MKP...
just to name a few. DRG loses to hellions more times than I can count. and I run his damn fanclub!
So because DRG loses to a Code S winner (MMA) and a crazy-good TvZ player (MKP) on certain occasions that they use Hellions, the strategy deserves to be nerfed? Look at how long ago those events were. Look at how recently the Queen was buffed. I don't recall the Hellion making it impossible for DRG to compete with MKP at the last few MLGs, despite the latter opening Hellions almost every game. Hell, I don't even recall DRG coming anywhere close to losing to them.
It's entirely reasonable that an opening should have a small chance of doing a lot of damage if the opposing player screws up. Case in point, PvZ: if I fail to simcity correctly and scout correctly, I leave myself open to Baneling Busts, Roach Rushes, and Ling Runbys. I see no reason why Zerg can't do this against Hellion openers rather than just playing standard and automatically fending them off.
I dont think you understand the point of the buff. Go watch the david kim interview by TL posted yesterday. DK said that hellions were not unbeatable, but they were too strong for their costs. They control too much of the map for basically a very cheap investment. If you don't defend perfectly, you lose the game like DRG did. The risk/reward ratio was too lopsided in Terran's favor.
Also, saying that losing to good players is an acceptable excuse to have an overpowered strategy is a really bad argument....
First off, the MU was considered the most balanced one before the lastest patch. A LOT more people are complaing now, than before. Creep spread is huge in TvZ, and hellions were basically the only way to deny it, even tho it might have been too great of a risk/reward in terran's favor, 4 range queens would have been interesting. Zergs were doing just fine vs reactor hellion builds, before patch it only delayed ur creep for a short period of time tbh.
And wtf? Making hellions is an OP strat?
yet blizzard claims it's the most balanced it's ever been.
On June 14 2012 10:01 Shiori wrote:
On June 14 2012 09:54 neoghaleon55 wrote:
On June 14 2012 09:48 Shiori wrote:
On June 14 2012 09:45 neoghaleon55 wrote:
On June 14 2012 07:16 Shiori wrote: I guarantee good players like DRG weren't taking "massive damage" from Hellions.
You have no idea... Go watch game 3 of blizzard cup finals against MMA. Arena of Legends finals against MKP...
just to name a few. DRG loses to hellions more times than I can count. and I run his damn fanclub!
So because DRG loses to a Code S winner (MMA) and a crazy-good TvZ player (MKP) on certain occasions that they use Hellions, the strategy deserves to be nerfed? Look at how long ago those events were. Look at how recently the Queen was buffed. I don't recall the Hellion making it impossible for DRG to compete with MKP at the last few MLGs, despite the latter opening Hellions almost every game. Hell, I don't even recall DRG coming anywhere close to losing to them.
It's entirely reasonable that an opening should have a small chance of doing a lot of damage if the opposing player screws up. Case in point, PvZ: if I fail to simcity correctly and scout correctly, I leave myself open to Baneling Busts, Roach Rushes, and Ling Runbys. I see no reason why Zerg can't do this against Hellion openers rather than just playing standard and automatically fending them off.
I dont think you understand the point of the buff. Go watch the david kim interview by TL posted yesterday. DK said that hellions were not unbeatable, but they were too strong for their costs. They control too much of the map for basically a very cheap investment. If you don't defend perfectly, you lose the game like DRG did. The risk/reward ratio was too lopsided in Terran's favor.
Also, saying that losing to good players is an acceptable excuse to have an overpowered strategy is a really bad argument....
You're blinded by your Zerg bias, here. Hellions were a safe opener that allowed Terrans to delay (not deny) Creep Spreading and retain mapcontrol until Speedlings were out en masse. That's good because now it's essentially impossible for Terran to get any map control early. It's also the case now that Creep is over halfway across the map by 10 minutes, even if the Terran opens Hellions. If Hellion openers were overpowered, then the current state of ZvT is flat-out broken.
oh so now you speak on the terrans behalf? you don't even play their race, you really hate zerg don't you? But what would you prefer? queen buff or increase the cost of the hellion? because that's what it came down to, the hellion COST for COST had way more reward than risk because they were fast, and a simple mistake like moving your drones away from the mineral line automatically lines them up for the hellions. Also DK stated that they wanted to see more diverse strategies and openings which they started to see after the queen buff. so tell me mr. terran, what was so diverse about TvZ before the queen nerf? virtually nothing, terrans 90% of the time opened reactor hellion.
and like I said before, blizzard has numbers we don't have access to, if a win percentage spikes, we'll know about it.
But realistically, I wouldn't mind a creep nerf, just don't revert the queen range, I don't think blizzard can afford to mess with people by flip flopping.
Blizzard is wrong. It's that simple. I don't care about their ladder statistics which include shitty low Masters players that do nothing but all-in; I care about the top level. They overnerfed the Ghost and they overbuffed the Queen. If you want "diversity" in a balanced matchup, then you add options, you don't remove them. There was nothing wrong with the Hellion opener. Want to know why? Because the matchup as a whole was balanced. If, as you say, the Hellion was too rewarding, then the fact that TvZ was still balanced statistically means that some other part of the game was equally Zerg favoured. In buffing the Queen, you've only trimmed one side of the tree, so to speak.
And like I said, a slight mistake losing you the game is completely fine. Try playing a PvT or PvP, or hell, even ZvZ. One misstep loses you the game for most of the entire matchup. That's not a problem. It means that players who don't make mistakes win games, like DRG did against Terran. Didn't see him losing too often to Hellion runbys, because he's not an idiot and he actually pays attention 99% of the time.
What "diverse strategies" have been working out for Terran since the Queen buff? Marauder/Hellion all-ins? Blind 3OC? Losing in general?
I don't speak on anyone's behalf (but apparently I really touched a nerve of yours in that other thread) but I'm not sure how me thinking the Queen buff was retarded means I hate Zerg. Why would I mindlessly hate a fictional race? Plus, the Queen buff barely affects PvZ, except by making scouting more difficult (which is stupid, but manageable). It literally turned TvZ from being one of my favourite matchups to watch into being the least balanced matchup in the entire game. It's boring seeing Zergs take an early third every single game, because it's passive play. You say you hated Terrans not having diversity? Fine, but at least their sameness made things happen and forced reactions. Zergs taking a fast third is boring as fuck because it's just passive play. Seeing Creep over halfway across the map at 10 minutes is another embarrassment that should tell you right away how crucial the viability of Hellions was to the stability of the matchup.
I'm not going to just take Blizzard's word for it. They're made tonnes of retarded choices over the years, and they've consistently refused to address real issues until long overdue.
problem is you believe that the game is balanced for the highest level but it's not, it's balanced for all levels. So those stats where shitty masters players all-in, is TAKEN into account. Whether you like it or not, blizzard HAS to do this, it's their imperative that the game isn't impossible to play at a bronze level all the way to GM. Blizzard does their balancing when they feel that there is an imbalance on ALL levels.
maybe DRG can handle hellions with 3 range queens, but obviously not everyone is DRG, even GM's and GSL level players couldn't handle 2 reactor hellion all-ins if the terran stopped scouting perfectly and the zerg didn't blindly make roaches, so how would a bronze player stop it?
Look I know you don't like it, but it's their method, and can't change it, won't happen.
Because players in Bronze are literally fucking irrelevant to balance. Do you know what's overpowered in Bronze? Skill. Building workers. Making units. Not getting supply blocked. I could make any build look overpowered in Bronze. Do you think any Bronze player is going to think reactored Hellions are OP, or are they just going to think whatever popular strategy they meet is overpowered?
The game was never impossible to play at any level. Zerg is always going to be the hardest at Platinum and lower just because of macro mechanics, but you're acting like pre-Hellion nerf Zerg was never winning on the ladder. How about 3base Roach? Do you advocate a nerf to that just because any Protoss without perfect FFs is going to die to it?
There was no imbalance with Hellions at the pro level, so your first premise is flawed anyways.
PS. QXC bunker strat was a gimmick and wont work against top players anymore, Raven is a new opening I'll grant you that, but Hellion openers were transitioning into standard bio, Banshees, mech, and all kinds of stuff. Not sure how that isn't diverse.
that was kind of the problem, hellion openers allowed ANY style to be used after and the thing with hellions is they are so fast that they catch any zergling scouts if you are skilled enough, and you have marines to deny overlord scouting, so a perfect playing terran can catch a zerg off guard with any unit combination.
I never said it was impossible, when did I say that? I said if the terran was good enough they can deny scouts and make it very hard to see whats coming, making any multi-factory hellion all-in very strong.
you are right, bronze players are zero indicator of balance but I never said I liked blizzards method, I was simply explaining to you because you seem to have forgotten that blizzard is a company that needs to make money and making money means selling your game to customers which means you must sell to the lowest common denominator. As I said before, I'M SORRY IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE WAY BLIZZARD BALANCES THE GAME, but that's how they do it son.
but you have to admit it's pretty impressive that blizzard is seeing 50% win rates across the board, bronze - GM, I mean how is that even possible right? well apparently it is, so kudos to them.
50% winrates on ladder are irrelevant because they tell you nothing about which strategies are the best. You got your Overlord buff, which fixes the problem with scouting all-ins. There was no need to simultaneously nerf Hellion openers.
And yeah, Blizzard's way of balancing the game is retarded because it would make no different if they stopped balancing for Bronze league since nothing in Bronze is imbalanced in any meaningful sense.
You have no idea... Go watch game 3 of blizzard cup finals against MMA. Arena of Legends finals against MKP...
just to name a few. DRG loses to hellions more times than I can count. and I run his damn fanclub!
So because DRG loses to a Code S winner (MMA) and a crazy-good TvZ player (MKP) on certain occasions that they use Hellions, the strategy deserves to be nerfed? Look at how long ago those events were. Look at how recently the Queen was buffed. I don't recall the Hellion making it impossible for DRG to compete with MKP at the last few MLGs, despite the latter opening Hellions almost every game. Hell, I don't even recall DRG coming anywhere close to losing to them.
It's entirely reasonable that an opening should have a small chance of doing a lot of damage if the opposing player screws up. Case in point, PvZ: if I fail to simcity correctly and scout correctly, I leave myself open to Baneling Busts, Roach Rushes, and Ling Runbys. I see no reason why Zerg can't do this against Hellion openers rather than just playing standard and automatically fending them off.
I dont think you understand the point of the buff. Go watch the david kim interview by TL posted yesterday. DK said that hellions were not unbeatable, but they were too strong for their costs. They control too much of the map for basically a very cheap investment. If you don't defend perfectly, you lose the game like DRG did. The risk/reward ratio was too lopsided in Terran's favor.
Also, saying that losing to good players is an acceptable excuse to have an overpowered strategy is a really bad argument....
First off, the MU was considered the most balanced one before the lastest patch. A LOT more people are complaing now, than before. Creep spread is huge in TvZ, and hellions were basically the only way to deny it, even tho it might have been too great of a risk/reward in terran's favor, 4 range queens would have been interesting. Zergs were doing just fine vs reactor hellion builds, before patch it only delayed ur creep for a short period of time tbh.
And wtf? Making hellions is an OP strat?
yet blizzard claims it's the most balanced it's ever been.
On June 14 2012 10:01 Shiori wrote:
On June 14 2012 09:54 neoghaleon55 wrote:
On June 14 2012 09:48 Shiori wrote:
On June 14 2012 09:45 neoghaleon55 wrote: [quote]
You have no idea... Go watch game 3 of blizzard cup finals against MMA. Arena of Legends finals against MKP...
just to name a few. DRG loses to hellions more times than I can count. and I run his damn fanclub!
So because DRG loses to a Code S winner (MMA) and a crazy-good TvZ player (MKP) on certain occasions that they use Hellions, the strategy deserves to be nerfed? Look at how long ago those events were. Look at how recently the Queen was buffed. I don't recall the Hellion making it impossible for DRG to compete with MKP at the last few MLGs, despite the latter opening Hellions almost every game. Hell, I don't even recall DRG coming anywhere close to losing to them.
It's entirely reasonable that an opening should have a small chance of doing a lot of damage if the opposing player screws up. Case in point, PvZ: if I fail to simcity correctly and scout correctly, I leave myself open to Baneling Busts, Roach Rushes, and Ling Runbys. I see no reason why Zerg can't do this against Hellion openers rather than just playing standard and automatically fending them off.
I dont think you understand the point of the buff. Go watch the david kim interview by TL posted yesterday. DK said that hellions were not unbeatable, but they were too strong for their costs. They control too much of the map for basically a very cheap investment. If you don't defend perfectly, you lose the game like DRG did. The risk/reward ratio was too lopsided in Terran's favor.
Also, saying that losing to good players is an acceptable excuse to have an overpowered strategy is a really bad argument....
You're blinded by your Zerg bias, here. Hellions were a safe opener that allowed Terrans to delay (not deny) Creep Spreading and retain mapcontrol until Speedlings were out en masse. That's good because now it's essentially impossible for Terran to get any map control early. It's also the case now that Creep is over halfway across the map by 10 minutes, even if the Terran opens Hellions. If Hellion openers were overpowered, then the current state of ZvT is flat-out broken.
oh so now you speak on the terrans behalf? you don't even play their race, you really hate zerg don't you? But what would you prefer? queen buff or increase the cost of the hellion? because that's what it came down to, the hellion COST for COST had way more reward than risk because they were fast, and a simple mistake like moving your drones away from the mineral line automatically lines them up for the hellions. Also DK stated that they wanted to see more diverse strategies and openings which they started to see after the queen buff. so tell me mr. terran, what was so diverse about TvZ before the queen nerf? virtually nothing, terrans 90% of the time opened reactor hellion.
and like I said before, blizzard has numbers we don't have access to, if a win percentage spikes, we'll know about it.
But realistically, I wouldn't mind a creep nerf, just don't revert the queen range, I don't think blizzard can afford to mess with people by flip flopping.
Blizzard is wrong. It's that simple. I don't care about their ladder statistics which include shitty low Masters players that do nothing but all-in; I care about the top level. They overnerfed the Ghost and they overbuffed the Queen. If you want "diversity" in a balanced matchup, then you add options, you don't remove them. There was nothing wrong with the Hellion opener. Want to know why? Because the matchup as a whole was balanced. If, as you say, the Hellion was too rewarding, then the fact that TvZ was still balanced statistically means that some other part of the game was equally Zerg favoured. In buffing the Queen, you've only trimmed one side of the tree, so to speak.
And like I said, a slight mistake losing you the game is completely fine. Try playing a PvT or PvP, or hell, even ZvZ. One misstep loses you the game for most of the entire matchup. That's not a problem. It means that players who don't make mistakes win games, like DRG did against Terran. Didn't see him losing too often to Hellion runbys, because he's not an idiot and he actually pays attention 99% of the time.
What "diverse strategies" have been working out for Terran since the Queen buff? Marauder/Hellion all-ins? Blind 3OC? Losing in general?
I don't speak on anyone's behalf (but apparently I really touched a nerve of yours in that other thread) but I'm not sure how me thinking the Queen buff was retarded means I hate Zerg. Why would I mindlessly hate a fictional race? Plus, the Queen buff barely affects PvZ, except by making scouting more difficult (which is stupid, but manageable). It literally turned TvZ from being one of my favourite matchups to watch into being the least balanced matchup in the entire game. It's boring seeing Zergs take an early third every single game, because it's passive play. You say you hated Terrans not having diversity? Fine, but at least their sameness made things happen and forced reactions. Zergs taking a fast third is boring as fuck because it's just passive play. Seeing Creep over halfway across the map at 10 minutes is another embarrassment that should tell you right away how crucial the viability of Hellions was to the stability of the matchup.
I'm not going to just take Blizzard's word for it. They're made tonnes of retarded choices over the years, and they've consistently refused to address real issues until long overdue.
problem is you believe that the game is balanced for the highest level but it's not, it's balanced for all levels. So those stats where shitty masters players all-in, is TAKEN into account. Whether you like it or not, blizzard HAS to do this, it's their imperative that the game isn't impossible to play at a bronze level all the way to GM. Blizzard does their balancing when they feel that there is an imbalance on ALL levels.
maybe DRG can handle hellions with 3 range queens, but obviously not everyone is DRG, even GM's and GSL level players couldn't handle 2 reactor hellion all-ins if the terran stopped scouting perfectly and the zerg didn't blindly make roaches, so how would a bronze player stop it?
Look I know you don't like it, but it's their method, and can't change it, won't happen.
Because players in Bronze are literally fucking irrelevant to balance. Do you know what's overpowered in Bronze? Skill. Building workers. Making units. Not getting supply blocked. I could make any build look overpowered in Bronze. Do you think any Bronze player is going to think reactored Hellions are OP, or are they just going to think whatever popular strategy they meet is overpowered?
The game was never impossible to play at any level. Zerg is always going to be the hardest at Platinum and lower just because of macro mechanics, but you're acting like pre-Hellion nerf Zerg was never winning on the ladder. How about 3base Roach? Do you advocate a nerf to that just because any Protoss without perfect FFs is going to die to it?
There was no imbalance with Hellions at the pro level, so your first premise is flawed anyways.
PS. QXC bunker strat was a gimmick and wont work against top players anymore, Raven is a new opening I'll grant you that, but Hellion openers were transitioning into standard bio, Banshees, mech, and all kinds of stuff. Not sure how that isn't diverse.
that was kind of the problem, hellion openers allowed ANY style to be used after and the thing with hellions is they are so fast that they catch any zergling scouts if you are skilled enough, and you have marines to deny overlord scouting, so a perfect playing terran can catch a zerg off guard with any unit combination.
I never said it was impossible, when did I say that? I said if the terran was good enough they can deny scouts and make it very hard to see whats coming, making any multi-factory hellion all-in very strong.
you are right, bronze players are zero indicator of balance but I never said I liked blizzards method, I was simply explaining to you because you seem to have forgotten that blizzard is a company that needs to make money and making money means selling your game to customers which means you must sell to the lowest common denominator. As I said before, I'M SORRY IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE WAY BLIZZARD BALANCES THE GAME, but that's how they do it son.
but you have to admit it's pretty impressive that blizzard is seeing 50% win rates across the board, bronze - GM, I mean how is that even possible right? well apparently it is, so kudos to them.
50% winrates on ladder are irrelevant because they tell you nothing about which strategies are the best. You got your Overlord buff, which fixes the problem with scouting all-ins. There was no need to simultaneously nerf Hellion openers.
And yeah, Blizzard's way of balancing the game is retarded because it would make no different if they stopped balancing for Bronze league since nothing in Bronze is imbalanced in any meaningful sense.
look, I would like a more balanced game made for pros but as I said, blizz has to appeal to casuals so they try and make win rates as even as possible across the board. At least I admit and know what blizz's method of balance is, so I don't get upset about things I have no control over.
I would really like to see terran air redone in HotS, especially the raven it should be more like the science vessel, but WoL looks like it's pretty much going to remain the same, so any drastic changes you were hoping to stop infestor/bl just isn't going to happen. If I had to guess though, the last balance patch to come would be 1.5 and it would most likely be a creep nerf, I can't see blizzard flip flopping on the range or overlord buff but they could make creep spread slower and also recede quicker or give reproducing creep tumors a longer cool down.
On June 14 2012 07:16 Shiori wrote: I guarantee good players like DRG weren't taking "massive damage" from Hellions.
You have no idea... Go watch game 3 of blizzard cup finals against MMA. Arena of Legends finals against MKP...
just to name a few. DRG loses to hellions more times than I can count. and I run his damn fanclub!
So because DRG loses to a Code S winner (MMA) and a crazy-good TvZ player (MKP) on certain occasions that they use Hellions, the strategy deserves to be nerfed? Look at how long ago those events were. Look at how recently the Queen was buffed. I don't recall the Hellion making it impossible for DRG to compete with MKP at the last few MLGs, despite the latter opening Hellions almost every game. Hell, I don't even recall DRG coming anywhere close to losing to them.
It's entirely reasonable that an opening should have a small chance of doing a lot of damage if the opposing player screws up. Case in point, PvZ: if I fail to simcity correctly and scout correctly, I leave myself open to Baneling Busts, Roach Rushes, and Ling Runbys. I see no reason why Zerg can't do this against Hellion openers rather than just playing standard and automatically fending them off.
I dont think you understand the point of the buff. Go watch the david kim interview by TL posted yesterday. DK said that hellions were not unbeatable, but they were too strong for their costs. They control too much of the map for basically a very cheap investment. If you don't defend perfectly, you lose the game like DRG did. The risk/reward ratio was too lopsided in Terran's favor.
Also, saying that losing to good players is an acceptable excuse to have an overpowered strategy is a really bad argument....
First off, the MU was considered the most balanced one before the lastest patch. A LOT more people are complaing now, than before. Creep spread is huge in TvZ, and hellions were basically the only way to deny it, even tho it might have been too great of a risk/reward in terran's favor, 4 range queens would have been interesting. Zergs were doing just fine vs reactor hellion builds, before patch it only delayed ur creep for a short period of time tbh.
And wtf? Making hellions is an OP strat?
yet blizzard claims it's the most balanced it's ever been.
On June 14 2012 07:16 Shiori wrote: I guarantee good players like DRG weren't taking "massive damage" from Hellions.
You have no idea... Go watch game 3 of blizzard cup finals against MMA. Arena of Legends finals against MKP...
just to name a few. DRG loses to hellions more times than I can count. and I run his damn fanclub!
So because DRG loses to a Code S winner (MMA) and a crazy-good TvZ player (MKP) on certain occasions that they use Hellions, the strategy deserves to be nerfed? Look at how long ago those events were. Look at how recently the Queen was buffed. I don't recall the Hellion making it impossible for DRG to compete with MKP at the last few MLGs, despite the latter opening Hellions almost every game. Hell, I don't even recall DRG coming anywhere close to losing to them.
It's entirely reasonable that an opening should have a small chance of doing a lot of damage if the opposing player screws up. Case in point, PvZ: if I fail to simcity correctly and scout correctly, I leave myself open to Baneling Busts, Roach Rushes, and Ling Runbys. I see no reason why Zerg can't do this against Hellion openers rather than just playing standard and automatically fending them off.
I dont think you understand the point of the buff. Go watch the david kim interview by TL posted yesterday. DK said that hellions were not unbeatable, but they were too strong for their costs. They control too much of the map for basically a very cheap investment. If you don't defend perfectly, you lose the game like DRG did. The risk/reward ratio was too lopsided in Terran's favor.
Also, saying that losing to good players is an acceptable excuse to have an overpowered strategy is a really bad argument....
You're blinded by your Zerg bias, here. Hellions were a safe opener that allowed Terrans to delay (not deny) Creep Spreading and retain mapcontrol until Speedlings were out en masse. That's good because now it's essentially impossible for Terran to get any map control early. It's also the case now that Creep is over halfway across the map by 10 minutes, even if the Terran opens Hellions. If Hellion openers were overpowered, then the current state of ZvT is flat-out broken.
oh so now you speak on the terrans behalf? you don't even play their race, you really hate zerg don't you? But what would you prefer? queen buff or increase the cost of the hellion? because that's what it came down to, the hellion COST for COST had way more reward than risk because they were fast, and a simple mistake like moving your drones away from the mineral line automatically lines them up for the hellions. Also DK stated that they wanted to see more diverse strategies and openings which they started to see after the queen buff. so tell me mr. terran, what was so diverse about TvZ before the queen nerf? virtually nothing, terrans 90% of the time opened reactor hellion.
and like I said before, blizzard has numbers we don't have access to, if a win percentage spikes, we'll know about it.
But realistically, I wouldn't mind a creep nerf, just don't revert the queen range, I don't think blizzard can afford to mess with people by flip flopping.
So it's not fine for zerg to make a simple mistake and lose the game because of it, but how about terran or protoss? Terran clumps up marines and a single fungal can end the game, seems like a very simple mistake to lose the game on. How about protoss, one missed forcefield and lings stream in and kill every probe. Why is it ok for them to lose to a simple mistake but not alright if zerg loses because of a simple mistake?
yet blizzard claims it's the most balanced it's ever been.
Where exactly di they say that. Since you know june tournaments results showed TvZ at 45%(worse results since July last year) and it looks even worse this month right now (MLG, TSL Korean qualifier wit 40 % TvZ)
oh so now you speak on the terrans behalf? you don't even play their race, you really hate zerg don't you? But what would you prefer? queen buff or increase the cost of the hellion? because that's what it came down to, the hellion COST for COST had way more reward than risk because they were fast, and a simple mistake like moving your drones away from the mineral line automatically lines them up for the hellions. Also DK stated that they wanted to see more diverse strategies and openings which they started to see after the queen buff. so tell me mr. terran, what was so diverse about TvZ before the queen nerf? virtually nothing, terrans 90% of the time opened reactor hellion.
Or they had possibility to change nothing since tvZ was considered balanced and best matchup in the game
On June 17 2012 05:32 emc wrote: and like I said before, blizzard has numbers we don't have access to, if a win percentage spikes, we'll know about it.
How exactly we will know? They published ladder stats twice in almost two years
in every single one of their MLG interviews, they've claimed that SC2 is the most balanced it's been, this isn't just ladder either, they are talking tournaments. They are taking win rates globally, not just one region, sure it might be skewed in Z favor but how many matches total was that in comparison to how many matches total were played globally?
I think they've been busy with other things, probably a reason why we haven't seen any official blue post
sure, numbers are numbers, metagame is something entirely different, but numbers DO mean something and if the numbers look ok, then it's probably ok. Blizzard DOES watch tournaments as well, so even 50/50 on paper looks nice, they still pay attention to the actual games and see what pros are doing. Browder mentioned that David Kims job is to watch every major tournament, that's his job, I think he knows his shit.
EPT
