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On May 25 2012 23:46 Bobson wrote:
The thing that bugs me as a terran player versus zerg is the fact that the broodlord is 4 food unit. With a maxxed Broodlord,corruptor and infestor army you have 3 units which is really food efficient and not many army types of terran army compositions can even deal with that army. The only success i have had has been ravens with seeker missile vs the mass corruptors ( Stacked ). Or EMP every infestor.
Kinda sucks that Broodlord,Corruptor and infestor is viable against ANY type of terran army composition. And the army composition that terran HAVE to get out to "counter" the heavy air zerg player does only work against that specific Bl,inf and corruptor composition.
Properly spread vikings counters broodlord/corruptor/infestor. Vikings + ghosts and vikings + ghosts + ravens work even better.
Considering that broodlord/corruptor/infestor is an incredibly gas-heavy high-tech composition, you're supposed to lose if you don't have a similarly gas-heavy high-tech composition to deal with it. If you're playing TvZ properly, you shouldn't frequently be in that situation anyhow.
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Hey I got an idea guys, this is to address Vortex Archon Toilets. Why doesn't Blizzard make it so that the area where vortexed units come out is no longer a single point, where everything clumps up? As in, they come out of the vortex spread a little bit more: the point becomes a circle. Vortex will have its intended purpose of splitting up/ temporarily destroying the enemy army, but it can no long be abused to the point where it can decimate 60 supply of broodlords in three seconds.
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After watching the recent MLG + GSL games, I feel like zerg creep spread is almost too powerful in TvZ since it is so hard to stop it now. With so much creep on the map, it makes pressuring as terran incredibly risky, since creep is rather slow in receding the terran will almost be required to fight on creep if they don't want to give zerg a large amount of time to prepare.
One thing that I think would be helpful is either a) putting a longer CD on creep tumors or b) requiring more queen energy to make a creep tumor. In both cases it makes spreading creep a little bit harder (another option is to speed up how quickly it recedes, but I like the nexus/CC block with overlords spawning creep so I don't think that should be changed). I personally feel like (b) is better, since it would force zergs to consider whether they should spawn the next tumor or save the energy for transfuse in case of an attack. I don't see it needing to be a dramatic energy increase to help TvZ, maybe to like 30 or 35, but it would prevent there from being so many creep nodes available.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On June 12 2012 08:12 convention wrote:
After watching the recent MLG + GSL games, I feel like zerg creep spread is almost too powerful in TvZ since it is so hard to stop it now. With so much creep on the map, it makes pressuring as terran incredibly risky, since creep is rather slow in receding the terran will almost be required to fight on creep if they don't want to give zerg a large amount of time to prepare.
One thing that I think would be helpful is either a) putting a longer CD on creep tumors or b) requiring more queen energy to make a creep tumor. In both cases it makes spreading creep a little bit harder (another option is to speed up how quickly it recedes, but I like the nexus/CC block with overlords spawning creep so I don't think that should be changed). I personally feel like (b) is better, since it would force zergs to consider whether they should spawn the next tumor or save the energy for transfuse in case of an attack. I don't see it needing to be a dramatic energy increase to help TvZ, maybe to like 30 or 35, but it would prevent there from being so many creep nodes available.
I agree on receding, it takes way too long, but creep spread overall? No.
You can see a good Zerg player when his creep spread is good, it takes micro-management along with injects, it isn't something every newbie can do. The one thing you're pointing out is MKP losing to DRG because of the creep on Cloud Kingdom, it was entirely MKP's fault for not clearing those tumors, he had the energy to scan, but didn't clear it, and remember, you can get a squad of marines out, scan 3-4 times (by the time creep spread gets out of hand, you should have enough energy to scan a couple of times) and clear it out. The Zerg player needs to get another Queen out there in the open and start the Creep Spread again, because once you use the tumors, you can't use them again.
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On June 12 2012 08:59 ysnake wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 08:12 convention wrote:
After watching the recent MLG + GSL games, I feel like zerg creep spread is almost too powerful in TvZ since it is so hard to stop it now. With so much creep on the map, it makes pressuring as terran incredibly risky, since creep is rather slow in receding the terran will almost be required to fight on creep if they don't want to give zerg a large amount of time to prepare.
One thing that I think would be helpful is either a) putting a longer CD on creep tumors or b) requiring more queen energy to make a creep tumor. In both cases it makes spreading creep a little bit harder (another option is to speed up how quickly it recedes, but I like the nexus/CC block with overlords spawning creep so I don't think that should be changed). I personally feel like (b) is better, since it would force zergs to consider whether they should spawn the next tumor or save the energy for transfuse in case of an attack. I don't see it needing to be a dramatic energy increase to help TvZ, maybe to like 30 or 35, but it would prevent there from being so many creep nodes available. I agree on receding, it takes way too long, but creep spread overall? No. You can see a good Zerg player when his creep spread is good, it takes micro-management along with injects, it isn't something every newbie can do. The one thing you're pointing out is MKP losing to DRG because of the creep on Cloud Kingdom, it was entirely MKP's fault for not clearing those tumors, he had the energy to scan, but didn't clear it, and remember, you can get a squad of marines out, scan 3-4 times (by the time creep spread gets out of hand, you should have enough energy to scan a couple of times) and clear it out. The Zerg player needs to get another Queen out there in the open and start the Creep Spread again, because once you use the tumors, you can't use them again.
Isn't that an exaggerated version of the problem Zergs were apparently having with Hellions, though? You shouldn't need to exercise an inordinate amount of effort just to deal with something that is essentially risk-free and, in this case, literally free. Creep Spreading across over half the map by 10 minutes is utterly ridiculous, especially when it's effective against Hellion openers.
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On May 26 2012 21:49 CyDe wrote:
Hey I got an idea guys, this is to address Vortex Archon Toilets. Why doesn't Blizzard make it so that the area where vortexed units come out is no longer a single point, where everything clumps up? As in, they come out of the vortex spread a little bit more: the point becomes a circle. Vortex will have its intended purpose of splitting up/ temporarily destroying the enemy army, but it can no long be abused to the point where it can decimate 60 supply of broodlords in three seconds.
That's not a bad idea tbh, and pretty achievable. Just requires some re-development to have the units that come out of the point during those 2 seconds of invulnerability push out a bit more.
My idea for vortex was to apply the nuclear missile effect where the area that will be affected is somewhat shown and there's a slight 'charge-up' rather than being instantaneous. So something like:
- P1 casts Vortex at an area
- P2 can see a slight graphic for soon to be affected area
- 2-3 in game seconds pass
- Vortex occurs normally
In my eyes the issue with vortex isn't simply the archon toilet, but the fact that the only way to avoid it is for it not to occur. Terran have to EMP, Protoss have to feedback or Zerg have to Neural in order to stop the vortex from happening. A good protoss player should be able to, if they aren't hit by any of the above, easily cut a good chunk out of the opposing army.
Perhaps a combination of these two ideas? Or perhaps even just better splitting post-release from vortex will solve the archon toilet issue meaning that players will just jump into a vortex to reunite army. Still makes storms an issue of course.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On June 12 2012 09:01 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 08:59 ysnake wrote:On June 12 2012 08:12 convention wrote:
After watching the recent MLG + GSL games, I feel like zerg creep spread is almost too powerful in TvZ since it is so hard to stop it now. With so much creep on the map, it makes pressuring as terran incredibly risky, since creep is rather slow in receding the terran will almost be required to fight on creep if they don't want to give zerg a large amount of time to prepare.
One thing that I think would be helpful is either a) putting a longer CD on creep tumors or b) requiring more queen energy to make a creep tumor. In both cases it makes spreading creep a little bit harder (another option is to speed up how quickly it recedes, but I like the nexus/CC block with overlords spawning creep so I don't think that should be changed). I personally feel like (b) is better, since it would force zergs to consider whether they should spawn the next tumor or save the energy for transfuse in case of an attack. I don't see it needing to be a dramatic energy increase to help TvZ, maybe to like 30 or 35, but it would prevent there from being so many creep nodes available. I agree on receding, it takes way too long, but creep spread overall? No. You can see a good Zerg player when his creep spread is good, it takes micro-management along with injects, it isn't something every newbie can do. The one thing you're pointing out is MKP losing to DRG because of the creep on Cloud Kingdom, it was entirely MKP's fault for not clearing those tumors, he had the energy to scan, but didn't clear it, and remember, you can get a squad of marines out, scan 3-4 times (by the time creep spread gets out of hand, you should have enough energy to scan a couple of times) and clear it out. The Zerg player needs to get another Queen out there in the open and start the Creep Spread again, because once you use the tumors, you can't use them again. Isn't that an exaggerated version of the problem Zergs were apparently having with Hellions, though? You shouldn't need to exercise an inordinate amount of effort just to deal with something that is essentially risk-free and, in this case, literally free. Creep Spreading across over half the map by 10 minutes is utterly ridiculous, especially when it's effective against Hellion openers.
I doubt that anyone can use the "risk-free" argument to support anything. Because there are so many things which are risk-free in StarCraft 2. A big risk is losing your Queen(s), and their build time is really long. Same like me saying "well, the Protoss is risk-free by laying a Pylon at my natural". He indeed is, but the fact remains, if a Zerg is "back at home", like a Protoss army or Terran army, they are most likely doing something wrong. Zerg needs to be on the map, because Zerg cannot just charge you, they need to come from every direction, to "swarm" you, and you need map control for that.
Yes, those two tumors (if I recall correctly) did cost MKP the game, but MKP did not pay attention and that contributed to his loss.
Remember, Blizzard was thinking of a way to nerf Hellion openers, it was either Queen range or 50 energy on Queen upon making. All Zerg units are slow at the start, especially off-creep, and Hellion openers were too good and too easy to do something that can inflict massive damage.
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Does anyone think we'll see a nerf to hive tech before HOTS? It seems a little bit too powerful against protoss and a lot too powerful against terran. If they nerfed broodlord+infestor combo they could actually deal with the coinflip vortex archons.
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On June 12 2012 10:30 ysnake wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 09:01 Shiori wrote:On June 12 2012 08:59 ysnake wrote:On June 12 2012 08:12 convention wrote:
After watching the recent MLG + GSL games, I feel like zerg creep spread is almost too powerful in TvZ since it is so hard to stop it now. With so much creep on the map, it makes pressuring as terran incredibly risky, since creep is rather slow in receding the terran will almost be required to fight on creep if they don't want to give zerg a large amount of time to prepare.
One thing that I think would be helpful is either a) putting a longer CD on creep tumors or b) requiring more queen energy to make a creep tumor. In both cases it makes spreading creep a little bit harder (another option is to speed up how quickly it recedes, but I like the nexus/CC block with overlords spawning creep so I don't think that should be changed). I personally feel like (b) is better, since it would force zergs to consider whether they should spawn the next tumor or save the energy for transfuse in case of an attack. I don't see it needing to be a dramatic energy increase to help TvZ, maybe to like 30 or 35, but it would prevent there from being so many creep nodes available. I agree on receding, it takes way too long, but creep spread overall? No. You can see a good Zerg player when his creep spread is good, it takes micro-management along with injects, it isn't something every newbie can do. The one thing you're pointing out is MKP losing to DRG because of the creep on Cloud Kingdom, it was entirely MKP's fault for not clearing those tumors, he had the energy to scan, but didn't clear it, and remember, you can get a squad of marines out, scan 3-4 times (by the time creep spread gets out of hand, you should have enough energy to scan a couple of times) and clear it out. The Zerg player needs to get another Queen out there in the open and start the Creep Spread again, because once you use the tumors, you can't use them again. Isn't that an exaggerated version of the problem Zergs were apparently having with Hellions, though? You shouldn't need to exercise an inordinate amount of effort just to deal with something that is essentially risk-free and, in this case, literally free. Creep Spreading across over half the map by 10 minutes is utterly ridiculous, especially when it's effective against Hellion openers. Remember, Blizzard was thinking of a way to nerf Hellion openers, it was either Queen range or 50 energy on Queen upon making. All Zerg units are slow at the start, especially off-creep, and Hellion openers were too good and too easy to do something that can inflict massive damage.
I guarantee good players like DRG weren't taking "massive damage" from Hellions.
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My main balance observation at the moment is the way PvZ is playing out. It seems that with the new Zerg developments allowing them to potentially have a very strong army at around 12 minutes, if not maxed, and if not, soon thereafter. It makes it so a disproportionate amount of PvZ games involve either:
A) Protoss committing to a 2 base all-in for fear of losing to a 12 minute Roach Ling max-out (even if it's not necessarily coming) and having mixed results, as top Zergs are figuring out how to beat the popular 2 base Protoss all-ins, or . . .
B) Protoss taking a quick 3rd base, which seems to be too easily taken advantage of; it leaves them unprepared to defend the Roach/Ling max, and as Zerg are generally going 3 quick bases, a fast 3rd by Protoss gives Zerg an opportunity to take another base (or even 2, depending on the map). It's also risky for P to go quick 3rd and give Zerg the extra breathing room, as the whole time the clock is ticking before Broodlord/Infestor hits the map.
Has anyone seen any games between top players/pros displaying (or know of any) non-2base all-in builds where Protoss is still safe vs. the 12 minute Roach/Ling max build, while still being able to keep up in a macro game as well?
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I too think creep should receed faster and also have it's CD nerfed on reproduced creep tumors. Creep spreading seems to be the biggest issue rather than 5 range queens, terrans have learned that they can't just be on auto-attack the first 10 minutes and have to actually respect the early game zerg, which was never done before. But creep spreading gets out of hand, although QXC was coming up with some new ways to deny creep. But wasn't the CD of creep tumors actually slower at the HotS demos? If that's true, it could be sign of things to come, 1.5 maybe?
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On June 14 2012 07:16 Shiori wrote:
I guarantee good players like DRG weren't taking "massive damage" from Hellions.
You have no idea...
Go watch game 3 of blizzard cup finals against MMA.
Arena of Legends finals against MKP...
just to name a few.
DRG loses to hellions more times than I can count.
and I run his damn fanclub!
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On June 14 2012 09:45 neoghaleon55 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 07:16 Shiori wrote:
I guarantee good players like DRG weren't taking "massive damage" from Hellions. You have no idea... Go watch game 3 of blizzard cup finals against MMA. Arena of Legends finals against MKP... just to name a few. DRG loses to hellions more times than I can count. and I run his damn fanclub!
So because DRG loses to a Code S winner (MMA) and a crazy-good TvZ player (MKP) on certain occasions that they use Hellions, the strategy deserves to be nerfed? Look at how long ago those events were. Look at how recently the Queen was buffed. I don't recall the Hellion making it impossible for DRG to compete with MKP at the last few MLGs, despite the latter opening Hellions almost every game. Hell, I don't even recall DRG coming anywhere close to losing to them.
It's entirely reasonable that an opening should have a small chance of doing a lot of damage if the opposing player screws up. Case in point, PvZ: if I fail to simcity correctly and scout correctly, I leave myself open to Baneling Busts, Roach Rushes, and Ling Runbys. I see no reason why Zerg can't do this against Hellion openers rather than just playing standard and automatically fending them off.
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On June 14 2012 09:48 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 09:45 neoghaleon55 wrote:On June 14 2012 07:16 Shiori wrote:
I guarantee good players like DRG weren't taking "massive damage" from Hellions. You have no idea... Go watch game 3 of blizzard cup finals against MMA. Arena of Legends finals against MKP... just to name a few. DRG loses to hellions more times than I can count. and I run his damn fanclub! So because DRG loses to a Code S winner (MMA) and a crazy-good TvZ player (MKP) on certain occasions that they use Hellions, the strategy deserves to be nerfed? Look at how long ago those events were. Look at how recently the Queen was buffed. I don't recall the Hellion making it impossible for DRG to compete with MKP at the last few MLGs, despite the latter opening Hellions almost every game. Hell, I don't even recall DRG coming anywhere close to losing to them. It's entirely reasonable that an opening should have a small chance of doing a lot of damage if the opposing player screws up. Case in point, PvZ: if I fail to simcity correctly and scout correctly, I leave myself open to Baneling Busts, Roach Rushes, and Ling Runbys. I see no reason why Zerg can't do this against Hellion openers rather than just playing standard and automatically fending them off.
I dont think you understand the point of the buff.
Go watch the david kim interview by TL posted yesterday.
DK said that hellions were not unbeatable, but they were too strong for their costs.
They control too much of the map for basically a very cheap investment.
If you don't defend perfectly, you lose the game like DRG did.
The risk/reward ratio was too lopsided in Terran's favor.
Also, saying that losing to good players is an acceptable excuse to have an overpowered strategy is a really bad argument....
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On June 14 2012 09:54 neoghaleon55 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 09:48 Shiori wrote:On June 14 2012 09:45 neoghaleon55 wrote:On June 14 2012 07:16 Shiori wrote:
I guarantee good players like DRG weren't taking "massive damage" from Hellions. You have no idea... Go watch game 3 of blizzard cup finals against MMA. Arena of Legends finals against MKP... just to name a few. DRG loses to hellions more times than I can count. and I run his damn fanclub! So because DRG loses to a Code S winner (MMA) and a crazy-good TvZ player (MKP) on certain occasions that they use Hellions, the strategy deserves to be nerfed? Look at how long ago those events were. Look at how recently the Queen was buffed. I don't recall the Hellion making it impossible for DRG to compete with MKP at the last few MLGs, despite the latter opening Hellions almost every game. Hell, I don't even recall DRG coming anywhere close to losing to them. It's entirely reasonable that an opening should have a small chance of doing a lot of damage if the opposing player screws up. Case in point, PvZ: if I fail to simcity correctly and scout correctly, I leave myself open to Baneling Busts, Roach Rushes, and Ling Runbys. I see no reason why Zerg can't do this against Hellion openers rather than just playing standard and automatically fending them off. I dont think you understand the point of the buff. Go watch the david kim interview by TL posted yesterday. DK said that hellions were not unbeatable, but they were too strong for their costs. They control too much of the map for basically a very cheap investment. If you don't defend perfectly, you lose the game like DRG did. The risk/reward ratio was too lopsided in Terran's favor. Also, saying that losing to good players is an acceptable excuse to have an overpowered strategy is a really bad argument....
You're blinded by your Zerg bias, here. Hellions were a safe opener that allowed Terrans to delay (not deny) Creep Spreading and retain mapcontrol until Speedlings were out en masse. That's good because now it's essentially impossible for Terran to get any map control early. It's also the case now that Creep is over halfway across the map by 10 minutes, even if the Terran opens Hellions. If Hellion openers were overpowered, then the current state of ZvT is flat-out broken.
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On June 14 2012 10:01 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 09:54 neoghaleon55 wrote:On June 14 2012 09:48 Shiori wrote:On June 14 2012 09:45 neoghaleon55 wrote:On June 14 2012 07:16 Shiori wrote:
I guarantee good players like DRG weren't taking "massive damage" from Hellions. You have no idea... Go watch game 3 of blizzard cup finals against MMA. Arena of Legends finals against MKP... just to name a few. DRG loses to hellions more times than I can count. and I run his damn fanclub! So because DRG loses to a Code S winner (MMA) and a crazy-good TvZ player (MKP) on certain occasions that they use Hellions, the strategy deserves to be nerfed? Look at how long ago those events were. Look at how recently the Queen was buffed. I don't recall the Hellion making it impossible for DRG to compete with MKP at the last few MLGs, despite the latter opening Hellions almost every game. Hell, I don't even recall DRG coming anywhere close to losing to them. It's entirely reasonable that an opening should have a small chance of doing a lot of damage if the opposing player screws up. Case in point, PvZ: if I fail to simcity correctly and scout correctly, I leave myself open to Baneling Busts, Roach Rushes, and Ling Runbys. I see no reason why Zerg can't do this against Hellion openers rather than just playing standard and automatically fending them off. I dont think you understand the point of the buff. Go watch the david kim interview by TL posted yesterday. DK said that hellions were not unbeatable, but they were too strong for their costs. They control too much of the map for basically a very cheap investment. If you don't defend perfectly, you lose the game like DRG did. The risk/reward ratio was too lopsided in Terran's favor. Also, saying that losing to good players is an acceptable excuse to have an overpowered strategy is a really bad argument.... You're blinded by your Zerg bias, here. Hellions were a safe opener that allowed Terrans to delay (not deny) Creep Spreading and retain mapcontrol until Speedlings were out en masse. That's good because now it's essentially impossible for Terran to get any map control early. It's also the case now that Creep is over halfway across the map by 10 minutes, even if the Terran opens Hellions. If Hellion openers were overpowered, then the current state of ZvT is flat-out broken.
Don't go crying to me.
I'm just telling you what David Kim told everyone.
You just seem to miss the memo.
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On June 14 2012 10:02 neoghaleon55 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 10:01 Shiori wrote:On June 14 2012 09:54 neoghaleon55 wrote:On June 14 2012 09:48 Shiori wrote:On June 14 2012 09:45 neoghaleon55 wrote:On June 14 2012 07:16 Shiori wrote:
I guarantee good players like DRG weren't taking "massive damage" from Hellions. You have no idea... Go watch game 3 of blizzard cup finals against MMA. Arena of Legends finals against MKP... just to name a few. DRG loses to hellions more times than I can count. and I run his damn fanclub! So because DRG loses to a Code S winner (MMA) and a crazy-good TvZ player (MKP) on certain occasions that they use Hellions, the strategy deserves to be nerfed? Look at how long ago those events were. Look at how recently the Queen was buffed. I don't recall the Hellion making it impossible for DRG to compete with MKP at the last few MLGs, despite the latter opening Hellions almost every game. Hell, I don't even recall DRG coming anywhere close to losing to them. It's entirely reasonable that an opening should have a small chance of doing a lot of damage if the opposing player screws up. Case in point, PvZ: if I fail to simcity correctly and scout correctly, I leave myself open to Baneling Busts, Roach Rushes, and Ling Runbys. I see no reason why Zerg can't do this against Hellion openers rather than just playing standard and automatically fending them off. I dont think you understand the point of the buff. Go watch the david kim interview by TL posted yesterday. DK said that hellions were not unbeatable, but they were too strong for their costs. They control too much of the map for basically a very cheap investment. If you don't defend perfectly, you lose the game like DRG did. The risk/reward ratio was too lopsided in Terran's favor. Also, saying that losing to good players is an acceptable excuse to have an overpowered strategy is a really bad argument.... You're blinded by your Zerg bias, here. Hellions were a safe opener that allowed Terrans to delay (not deny) Creep Spreading and retain mapcontrol until Speedlings were out en masse. That's good because now it's essentially impossible for Terran to get any map control early. It's also the case now that Creep is over halfway across the map by 10 minutes, even if the Terran opens Hellions. If Hellion openers were overpowered, then the current state of ZvT is flat-out broken. Don't go crying to me. I'm just telling you what David Kim told everyone. You just seem to miss the memo.
I read David Kim's interview. He's wrong. Stop blindly appealing to authority, lol.
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On June 14 2012 10:04 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 10:02 neoghaleon55 wrote:On June 14 2012 10:01 Shiori wrote:On June 14 2012 09:54 neoghaleon55 wrote:On June 14 2012 09:48 Shiori wrote:On June 14 2012 09:45 neoghaleon55 wrote:On June 14 2012 07:16 Shiori wrote:
I guarantee good players like DRG weren't taking "massive damage" from Hellions. You have no idea... Go watch game 3 of blizzard cup finals against MMA. Arena of Legends finals against MKP... just to name a few. DRG loses to hellions more times than I can count. and I run his damn fanclub! So because DRG loses to a Code S winner (MMA) and a crazy-good TvZ player (MKP) on certain occasions that they use Hellions, the strategy deserves to be nerfed? Look at how long ago those events were. Look at how recently the Queen was buffed. I don't recall the Hellion making it impossible for DRG to compete with MKP at the last few MLGs, despite the latter opening Hellions almost every game. Hell, I don't even recall DRG coming anywhere close to losing to them. It's entirely reasonable that an opening should have a small chance of doing a lot of damage if the opposing player screws up. Case in point, PvZ: if I fail to simcity correctly and scout correctly, I leave myself open to Baneling Busts, Roach Rushes, and Ling Runbys. I see no reason why Zerg can't do this against Hellion openers rather than just playing standard and automatically fending them off. I dont think you understand the point of the buff. Go watch the david kim interview by TL posted yesterday. DK said that hellions were not unbeatable, but they were too strong for their costs. They control too much of the map for basically a very cheap investment. If you don't defend perfectly, you lose the game like DRG did. The risk/reward ratio was too lopsided in Terran's favor. Also, saying that losing to good players is an acceptable excuse to have an overpowered strategy is a really bad argument.... You're blinded by your Zerg bias, here. Hellions were a safe opener that allowed Terrans to delay (not deny) Creep Spreading and retain mapcontrol until Speedlings were out en masse. That's good because now it's essentially impossible for Terran to get any map control early. It's also the case now that Creep is over halfway across the map by 10 minutes, even if the Terran opens Hellions. If Hellion openers were overpowered, then the current state of ZvT is flat-out broken. Don't go crying to me. I'm just telling you what David Kim told everyone. You just seem to miss the memo. I read David Kim's interview. He's wrong. Stop blindly appealing to authority, lol.
lol....
go apply to work for Blizzard.
I'm sure you'll do a better job.
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On June 14 2012 10:01 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 09:54 neoghaleon55 wrote:On June 14 2012 09:48 Shiori wrote:On June 14 2012 09:45 neoghaleon55 wrote:On June 14 2012 07:16 Shiori wrote:
I guarantee good players like DRG weren't taking "massive damage" from Hellions. You have no idea... Go watch game 3 of blizzard cup finals against MMA. Arena of Legends finals against MKP... just to name a few. DRG loses to hellions more times than I can count. and I run his damn fanclub! So because DRG loses to a Code S winner (MMA) and a crazy-good TvZ player (MKP) on certain occasions that they use Hellions, the strategy deserves to be nerfed? Look at how long ago those events were. Look at how recently the Queen was buffed. I don't recall the Hellion making it impossible for DRG to compete with MKP at the last few MLGs, despite the latter opening Hellions almost every game. Hell, I don't even recall DRG coming anywhere close to losing to them. It's entirely reasonable that an opening should have a small chance of doing a lot of damage if the opposing player screws up. Case in point, PvZ: if I fail to simcity correctly and scout correctly, I leave myself open to Baneling Busts, Roach Rushes, and Ling Runbys. I see no reason why Zerg can't do this against Hellion openers rather than just playing standard and automatically fending them off. I dont think you understand the point of the buff. Go watch the david kim interview by TL posted yesterday. DK said that hellions were not unbeatable, but they were too strong for their costs. They control too much of the map for basically a very cheap investment. If you don't defend perfectly, you lose the game like DRG did. The risk/reward ratio was too lopsided in Terran's favor. Also, saying that losing to good players is an acceptable excuse to have an overpowered strategy is a really bad argument.... You're blinded by your Zerg bias, here. Hellions were a safe opener that allowed Terrans to delay (not deny) Creep Spreading and retain mapcontrol until Speedlings were out en masse. That's good because now it's essentially impossible for Terran to get any map control early. It's also the case now that Creep is over halfway across the map by 10 minutes, even if the Terran opens Hellions. If Hellion openers were overpowered, then the current state of ZvT is flat-out broken.
Creep should effectively be a tug of war between a Zerg and his/her opponent. In the current patch and with the current playing style of Zerg players, it's finally become that. Yes, sometimes it takes over more than half the map and encroaches on territory you'd consider 'yours' but it also frequently rarely reaches the halfway point of the map, either through being prevented in some way or through the Zerg being unable/unwilling to put up a bunch more actions to spread it.
It's now just about as easy for the Zerg to produce and spread creep as it is for an opponent to destroy it. Yes, we have situations where 3 or even 4 queens are dedicated solely to creep spread, which really makes it spread incredibly quickly, but that's the Zerg investing a lot of money, supply and effort into spreading creep, such commitments should be rewarded. Likewise, solid commitment towards preventing or slowing the spread of creep should also be rewarded as well (and it is).
It shouldn't be a given that a player can build a few units and prevent creep spread almost by default. Creep is one of the aspects of Zerg which helps to improve their chances in battle as they have a far weaker army which commands constant reinforcement and aggression from multiple angles. It's one of the things that helps to offset the inevitable impossible-to-balance struggle of melee vs. ranged units in strategy games.
There are many factors to consider and if someone truly wanted to debate balance they'd have to delve very deep into a great deal of variables and theory before being capable of holding a good sensible conversation on the subject.
You also shouldn't open a sentence with "your blinded by your xxx bias" and then say things which aren't exactly impartial.
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