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On June 18 2012 13:09 KenZo- wrote:
I like the games I saw in some tournament a few days ago, don't remember which one it was, but one of them was the banshee raven hellions go deny creep, the other was 2 medivacs 10 marines 2 tanks in groups, but its not really a viable thing, since on small maps zerg creep is already out of hand.
the most bizarre thing about the queen buff, is that they tested it for 5 days on a custom map, then role it out right away. That to me sounds so strange.
Haven't there been a bunch of balance changes that go through without any testing at all? And ya, I think earlier ravens and air are going to have to be used to stem creep spread because currently Terran builds are getting killed by creep.
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I'll be interested in where balance lands at the end of the month. I think that terran need a little time to experiment with thors/banshees/ravens/ghosts more, they've been using MMM/MMT for the past two years.
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There's a strong correlation to who has been winning tournaments to what the community complains most about in balance. The thing is, I feel like that's the weakest argument when it comes to balance because of just how much raw skill is involved, especially with the top Zergs who are dominating. DRG and Stephano are down right incredible players and their wins have honestly, less to do with balance and more to do with decision making and prowess.
I read about complaints about infestors and the fact remains is that you are supposed to spread brood war style before you engage, or if possible use HT's (for feedback) or ghost snipes to take them out, it makes sense that in order to stop a unit that is all micro that you need to use micro to counter it.
As for terran late game.... It's weird that in the beginning of the starcraft 2 metagame, zerg was considered the reactionary race, but now it's terran. I have a feeling this might continue to change.
I just feel like in general the game is very balanced compared to how it used to be which is good progress, but definitely could be better. Zerg feels like it's strong but to be honest it also just feels like the people who are the best at the game right now are just zerg players so it might skew balance perception.
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On June 18 2012 13:20 adeezy wrote:
There's a strong correlation to who has been winning tournaments to what the community complains most about in balance. The thing is, I feel like that's the weakest argument when it comes to balance because of just how much raw skill is involved, especially with the top Zergs who are dominating. DRG and Stephano are down right incredible players and their wins have honestly, less to do with balance and more to do with decision making and prowess.
I read about complaints about infestors and the fact remains is that you are supposed to spread brood war style before you engage, or if possible use HT's (for feedback) or ghost snipes to take them out, it makes sense that in order to stop a unit that is all micro that you need to use micro to counter it.
As for terran late game.... It's weird that in the beginning of the starcraft 2 metagame, zerg was considered the reactionary race, but now it's terran. I have a feeling this might continue to change.
I just feel like in general the game is very balanced compared to how it used to be which is good progress, but definitely could be better. Zerg feels like it's strong but to be honest it also just feels like the people who are the best at the game right now are just zerg players so it might skew balance perception.
The best players who played the game previously were terran players.
There was no imbalance. (see how easy that is?)
Nice point you are making there.
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On June 18 2012 13:14 the`postman wrote:
I'll be interested in where balance lands at the end of the month. I think that terran need a little time to experiment with thors/banshees/ravens/ghosts more, they've been using MMM/MMT for the past two years.
I may be wrong, but Thors are unreliable. Banshees are countered by queens. Ravens mabey. Ghosts were nerfed for being "too" usefull and now arnt cost effecient by-and-large.. I am pretty sure Terran has experimented with just about everything they could, and every time they found something that was good it got nerfed..
Where as with the other races, it seems when they find something that works, it gets a buff ((wether small and negligable or not, its still a buff))
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On June 18 2012 08:55 HeroMystic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 08:07 OptimusYale wrote:On June 18 2012 07:52 Evangelist wrote:
Both infestors and queens are pretty messed up at the moment but I think of the two, I'd rather see infestors lose the ability to fungal growth air units. I don't think a single unit should simultaneously counter all bio, any unit requiring any micro, mass air, mass ground, massive and simultaneously be such an insanely effective harassment unit.
Infestors eclipsed the effectiveness of ghosts against protoss quite some time ago. Scaling that back would do an awful lot to help Terran late game vZ which is where the problem really lies - most of the trouble with that queen buff isn't that it makes hellion openings shit, but the fact that hellion openers or the threat of hellion openers was needed to stop zerg just building 70 drones and then teching immediately to hive for their deathball.
With infestors being unable to hit air, a zerg would have to go air in order to control medivacs and banshees and would no longer be able to just a move over a terran army. Probably wouldn't effect ZvP much other than to reintroduce void rays.
Hell under those circumstances skyterran would probably become standard. Banshee viking battlecruiser. And then ZvZ would be a rush to muta MU. That is the reason it was changed back was because ZvZ would be even more retarded if FG didn't hit air. Everyone raging against queens against air are stupid, they only got buffed against the ground...and zergs in more match ups were building 4 or 5 anyway. Remember thats 2 supply units, that are a necessity for macro mechanics alone. Can't we all just realise that balance is pretty fine at the moment, there are small problems PvZ which seems to be a bit broken in many areas, but TvZ is greatly balanced and PvT is pretty entertaining. Perfect balance would be boring, this way with the slight errors in balance it makes it that littl emore interesting I severely disagree. TvZ was greatly balanced before the patch. Now that Blizzard messed up with it, we now have to deal with the #1 issue with the design of Terran that Blizzard and many players have decided to ignore: Terran's lategame is absolutely terrible. The way how Terran works vs Z/P, as well as T v Mech is you do early/mid game damage to either be even or ahead of the opponent when lategame arises. Blizzard fucked this up vs Z with the Queen buff and TvP has been a massive complaint because Protoss has naturally stopped sucking. So the natural answer is to get a lategame comp right? Well, we don't have a lategame composition. We have COUNTERS to a lategame composition. Ultras? Get Marauders. Broodlord? Get Viking/Raven Broodlord/Infestor? Get Viking/Raven and pray to Dustin Browder that you don't get Fungal'd. Ultra into Broodlord transition? Better hope your economy didn't get totally fucked. Broodlord into Ultra transition? Hahahaha, good luck. Lets see what we can consider as lategame units for Terran vs Z. -Raven: The ONLY unit worthy to be called a "Lategame" unit. Hunter Seeker Missile is a fucking awesome spell and shits all over Corrupters and Broodlords. This is until Zerg finally learns how to split their shit. PDD is great vs Corrupters too and Auto-Turret spam is a great defense for Tank lines. -Viking: The On-paper counter to Broodlords. However Infestors are so freaken good that they end up sucking. And now that we have no effective away to slow down Zerg without going for a 3 OC build and streaming in Marine/Marauder/Tank squads till the end of time, Vikings only got worse. -Ghost: Sucked ever since the Snipe nerf. EMP vs Infestor is kinda viable but the radius is so small and Zerg gets so many infestors anyway that it doesn't matter. Nuking expansions is very cost efficient late game but Ghosts are unable to close out a game because unlike an Infestor, Ghosts can't Fungal an entire army to death because they mispositioned their units. -Battlecrusier: lol. Out of all the lategame units, Raven is the only unit that deserves the title. However, fully upgrading a Raven is the equivalent to getting good service at McDonalds. It's damn near impossible, and when it does happen it's because the stars aligned and Browder graced you with his blessing. So yeah, bottomline, if the Queen buff stays, Raven needs a buff. Lower the cost of HSM to 100, Make Auto Turrets cost 25 energy, increase Raven speed, whatever. But the Raven needs some love and it's the perfect unit to have a viable lategame for all match-ups.
Another problem I see with late game Terran is base defense. Yeah planetary's are fucking awesome. BUT with Terran, all/most of your production is going to be in your main and in your natural. You can't put planetary's in either location as you need orbitals. This means your production line is at a HUGE risk the later the game goes and the more bases you have to defend or any time you want to push out on the map.
With Zerg you can just spam spine crawlers. With protoss you can just spam cannons. What the fuck do you do with Terran? you can't rely on bunkers as you need the units in your army. And turrets only hit air. so difficult.
It really sucks about TvZ now though. It was such a good match up pre patch. It was definitely my favorite match up to watch before. Now, its so frustrating.
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On June 18 2012 13:23 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 13:20 adeezy wrote:
There's a strong correlation to who has been winning tournaments to what the community complains most about in balance. The thing is, I feel like that's the weakest argument when it comes to balance because of just how much raw skill is involved, especially with the top Zergs who are dominating. DRG and Stephano are down right incredible players and their wins have honestly, less to do with balance and more to do with decision making and prowess.
I read about complaints about infestors and the fact remains is that you are supposed to spread brood war style before you engage, or if possible use HT's (for feedback) or ghost snipes to take them out, it makes sense that in order to stop a unit that is all micro that you need to use micro to counter it.
As for terran late game.... It's weird that in the beginning of the starcraft 2 metagame, zerg was considered the reactionary race, but now it's terran. I have a feeling this might continue to change.
I just feel like in general the game is very balanced compared to how it used to be which is good progress, but definitely could be better. Zerg feels like it's strong but to be honest it also just feels like the people who are the best at the game right now are just zerg players so it might skew balance perception. The best players who played the game previously were terran players. There was no imbalance. (see how easy that is?) Nice point you are making there.
That is certainly a valid explanation of why the Terran race had so much success in earlier GSLs. MMA, MKP, MVP all can play random at Top 50 GM in Korea. If they can do that, imagine if any one of them dedicated themselves to Zerg or Protoss. I'm guessing the results would be the same.
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On June 18 2012 12:47 sGs.Stregon wrote:
Supply before Barracks
Barracks build time increased
Reaper nerfed
Battlecruiser nerfed
Thor nerfed
Ghost nerfed ((emp and snipe))
Siege Tank nerfed
Blue Flame nerfed
Viking nerfed
Bunker build time increased
**note I might have missed something, but im not sure**
((on top of the other two races recieving buffs in some aspect to help counter said nerfed units^))
But hey, at Least Terran has Marines+stim right? apperantly Marine+stim is equal to or greater than the most rounded out list of units to choose to build from. I dont see what all the hub-bub is about. Zerg is strong in all aspects of the game, Protoss is strong late game, Terran has Marines+stim, that they have to do damage with early game ((in the form of an all-in)) to stand a chance later in the game ((by winning with their initial all-in)). Sounds like some legit balancing too me.
This is the list I give to my friends whenever we discuss balance. I just don't like playing the game anymore as Terran, and that's the only race I am decent at. I have a streamlined style I have to play in vZ and vP, and if I get late game, I lose basically no matter what.
I honestly think if thors and BCs had no energy things would be more balanced vP. It would allow late game units to be used late game. For vZ, I think reverting the Queen buff would make the matchup balanced. That or something on the infestor has to be balanced out. They shouldn't be able to hard counter essentially every unit, AND harass as well as they do.
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On June 18 2012 13:14 the`postman wrote:
I'll be interested in where balance lands at the end of the month. I think that terran need a little time to experiment with thors/banshees/ravens/ghosts more, they've been using MMM/MMT for the past two years.
You know what beats any composition relying on mainly Thors ? Roaches .Also you cannot move out until almost maxed and are hardpressed to take more than 3 Bases while the Zerg takes the whole damn Map and techs to all of his shit. Meaning you'll have exactly 1 army that you'll have to win the game with , which is goddamn impossbile on just about every Map.
Not to mention the Zerg endgame trades very well with Mech and unlike the Terran the Zerg thanks to his plentora of bases can just remax on something cheap while you scramble to replace a unit composition from units that take 45-60 seconds to build from your at best 5-6 factories since you can't just go into unupgraded stimless Bio to replace your army.
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On June 18 2012 13:01 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 12:37 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 18 2012 12:19 LowEloPlayer wrote:
Problem: Terrans feel hopeless when pushing in the midgame because of overwhelming creep spread.
(Potential) solution: Keep marines group around with a quick medivac. Allows you to kill / zone queens while picking in medivac if things get hairy. Also forces Zerg to make units.
Side effects: Lose some marine production / gas with early medivac (specific tech) Somewhat related to that... Would making a single raven for the main purpose of acting as a detector- so that the Terran doesn't have to keep wasting scans/ energy- be a good option for clearing out creep tumors? It would be the equivalent of the Protoss's observer, and it couldn't hurt to have a raven out that early with its other abilities anyway. I understand that the starports are usually used for quick medivac production but I don't really see ravens ever coming out early on and I'm curious why. Ravens literally do nothing early/midgame other than detecting unless he has mutas or corruptors and they're very fragile , slow and clunky. They just aren't good units early on. Would you spend 200 Gas early on for an Observer that isn't even invisible ? Because thats all Ravens do against anything but Zerg Air. Autoturrets are a gigantic joke , PDD with its stationary defense is not that great against Queens considering they shooting fast with low damage and HSM well you don't have at that point.
There's also the case of opportunity cost.
Forget the 200 gas cost (which is a huge setback, but lets ignore it), what does the Raven actually DO in the early game that other units cannot?
Well, PDD for the Queens is nice so Banshees can kill them... but you can just open Reactor Hellion/Banshee if you really want to snipe Queens. Or even do a Marine/Hellion/Medivac push.
Auto-Turret? Well, with one Raven that actually isn't worth anything. Doesn't make much diferrence vs Zerg aggression either. Getting Tanks are a much more solid defense and Marine drops deal way more damage.
So you're essentially getting a Raven for it's detection, which is the only advantage it has. Two major problems with this:
-Ravens are giant paperweights. Floating around with this is essentially saying "HEY ZERG COME KILL ME!" This can be avoidable vs Infestor but impossible to avoid vs Muta play.
-Scan is actually cheaper, contrary to belief. Minerals are hardly a problem for Terran. It's the gas that is the main limiter.
So the only real advantage you have for a Raven early-game is mobile detection. Anything else it can do, a combination of units can do better (while also being cheaper on the gas as well). This isn't me being a balance whiner either. I absolutely love the Raven and strongly believe it's the most underutilized unit in the game next to Warp Prism, but there's so much you can do with that 200 gas. Hell, that's a full set of bio upgrades.
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On June 18 2012 13:20 adeezy wrote:
There's a strong correlation to who has been winning tournaments to what the community complains most about in balance. The thing is, I feel like that's the weakest argument when it comes to balance because of just how much raw skill is involved, especially with the top Zergs who are dominating. DRG and Stephano are down right incredible players and their wins have honestly, less to do with balance and more to do with decision making and prowess.
I read about complaints about infestors and the fact remains is that you are supposed to spread brood war style before you engage, or if possible use HT's (for feedback) or ghost snipes to take them out, it makes sense that in order to stop a unit that is all micro that you need to use micro to counter it.
As for terran late game.... It's weird that in the beginning of the starcraft 2 metagame, zerg was considered the reactionary race, but now it's terran. I have a feeling this might continue to change.
I just feel like in general the game is very balanced compared to how it used to be which is good progress, but definitely could be better. Zerg feels like it's strong but to be honest it also just feels like the people who are the best at the game right now are just zerg players so it might skew balance perception.
Spread brood war style? It's impossible, man. You can split the units, but when you move them or A-move them, they clump up again. Units can only be spread out when they are standing still, but you simply can't fight when units standing still. Nice theorycrafting there but I doubt you have actually tried to split and A-move units in an actual game.
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On June 18 2012 13:27 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 13:23 Sadist wrote:On June 18 2012 13:20 adeezy wrote:
There's a strong correlation to who has been winning tournaments to what the community complains most about in balance. The thing is, I feel like that's the weakest argument when it comes to balance because of just how much raw skill is involved, especially with the top Zergs who are dominating. DRG and Stephano are down right incredible players and their wins have honestly, less to do with balance and more to do with decision making and prowess.
I read about complaints about infestors and the fact remains is that you are supposed to spread brood war style before you engage, or if possible use HT's (for feedback) or ghost snipes to take them out, it makes sense that in order to stop a unit that is all micro that you need to use micro to counter it.
As for terran late game.... It's weird that in the beginning of the starcraft 2 metagame, zerg was considered the reactionary race, but now it's terran. I have a feeling this might continue to change.
I just feel like in general the game is very balanced compared to how it used to be which is good progress, but definitely could be better. Zerg feels like it's strong but to be honest it also just feels like the people who are the best at the game right now are just zerg players so it might skew balance perception. The best players who played the game previously were terran players. There was no imbalance. (see how easy that is?) Nice point you are making there. That is certainly a valid explanation of why the Terran race had so much success in earlier GSLs. MMA, MKP, MVP all can play random at Top 50 GM in Korea. If they can do that, imagine if any one of them dedicated themselves to Zerg or Protoss. I'm guessing the results would be the same.
sarcasm is really hard to read on the internet (this isn't even sarcastic, im genuinely confused). Im not even sure if you are agreeing or not.
If you really think if the top terrans switching to zerg or protoss would allow them to start winning tournaments again, youre wrong, plus they have been winning
http://sc2earnings.com/?year=2012
just check out the earnings for this past half year. half of the top ten is terran =/
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On June 18 2012 13:42 adeezy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 13:27 zmansman17 wrote:On June 18 2012 13:23 Sadist wrote:On June 18 2012 13:20 adeezy wrote:
There's a strong correlation to who has been winning tournaments to what the community complains most about in balance. The thing is, I feel like that's the weakest argument when it comes to balance because of just how much raw skill is involved, especially with the top Zergs who are dominating. DRG and Stephano are down right incredible players and their wins have honestly, less to do with balance and more to do with decision making and prowess.
I read about complaints about infestors and the fact remains is that you are supposed to spread brood war style before you engage, or if possible use HT's (for feedback) or ghost snipes to take them out, it makes sense that in order to stop a unit that is all micro that you need to use micro to counter it.
As for terran late game.... It's weird that in the beginning of the starcraft 2 metagame, zerg was considered the reactionary race, but now it's terran. I have a feeling this might continue to change.
I just feel like in general the game is very balanced compared to how it used to be which is good progress, but definitely could be better. Zerg feels like it's strong but to be honest it also just feels like the people who are the best at the game right now are just zerg players so it might skew balance perception. The best players who played the game previously were terran players. There was no imbalance. (see how easy that is?) Nice point you are making there. That is certainly a valid explanation of why the Terran race had so much success in earlier GSLs. MMA, MKP, MVP all can play random at Top 50 GM in Korea. If they can do that, imagine if any one of them dedicated themselves to Zerg or Protoss. I'm guessing the results would be the same. sarcasm is really hard to read on the internet (this isn't even sarcastic, im genuinely confused). Im not even sure if you are agreeing or not. If you really think if the top terrans switching to zerg or protoss would allow them to start winning tournaments again, youre wrong, plus they have been winning http://sc2earnings.com/?year=2012just check out the earnings for this past half year. half of the top ten is terran =/
and only MVP has won a tournament since the queen buff. And that was 9 days after the buff when the season was pretty much over.
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On June 18 2012 13:51 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 13:42 adeezy wrote:On June 18 2012 13:27 zmansman17 wrote:On June 18 2012 13:23 Sadist wrote:On June 18 2012 13:20 adeezy wrote:
There's a strong correlation to who has been winning tournaments to what the community complains most about in balance. The thing is, I feel like that's the weakest argument when it comes to balance because of just how much raw skill is involved, especially with the top Zergs who are dominating. DRG and Stephano are down right incredible players and their wins have honestly, less to do with balance and more to do with decision making and prowess.
I read about complaints about infestors and the fact remains is that you are supposed to spread brood war style before you engage, or if possible use HT's (for feedback) or ghost snipes to take them out, it makes sense that in order to stop a unit that is all micro that you need to use micro to counter it.
As for terran late game.... It's weird that in the beginning of the starcraft 2 metagame, zerg was considered the reactionary race, but now it's terran. I have a feeling this might continue to change.
I just feel like in general the game is very balanced compared to how it used to be which is good progress, but definitely could be better. Zerg feels like it's strong but to be honest it also just feels like the people who are the best at the game right now are just zerg players so it might skew balance perception. The best players who played the game previously were terran players. There was no imbalance. (see how easy that is?) Nice point you are making there. That is certainly a valid explanation of why the Terran race had so much success in earlier GSLs. MMA, MKP, MVP all can play random at Top 50 GM in Korea. If they can do that, imagine if any one of them dedicated themselves to Zerg or Protoss. I'm guessing the results would be the same. sarcasm is really hard to read on the internet (this isn't even sarcastic, im genuinely confused). Im not even sure if you are agreeing or not. If you really think if the top terrans switching to zerg or protoss would allow them to start winning tournaments again, youre wrong, plus they have been winning http://sc2earnings.com/?year=2012just check out the earnings for this past half year. half of the top ten is terran =/ and only MVP has won a tournament since the queen buff. And that was 9 days after the buff when the season was pretty much over.
Thorzain won a tournament today. Terrans got an all kill for NSHS.
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On June 18 2012 13:58 the`postman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 13:51 jmbthirteen wrote:On June 18 2012 13:42 adeezy wrote:On June 18 2012 13:27 zmansman17 wrote:On June 18 2012 13:23 Sadist wrote:On June 18 2012 13:20 adeezy wrote:
There's a strong correlation to who has been winning tournaments to what the community complains most about in balance. The thing is, I feel like that's the weakest argument when it comes to balance because of just how much raw skill is involved, especially with the top Zergs who are dominating. DRG and Stephano are down right incredible players and their wins have honestly, less to do with balance and more to do with decision making and prowess.
I read about complaints about infestors and the fact remains is that you are supposed to spread brood war style before you engage, or if possible use HT's (for feedback) or ghost snipes to take them out, it makes sense that in order to stop a unit that is all micro that you need to use micro to counter it.
As for terran late game.... It's weird that in the beginning of the starcraft 2 metagame, zerg was considered the reactionary race, but now it's terran. I have a feeling this might continue to change.
I just feel like in general the game is very balanced compared to how it used to be which is good progress, but definitely could be better. Zerg feels like it's strong but to be honest it also just feels like the people who are the best at the game right now are just zerg players so it might skew balance perception. The best players who played the game previously were terran players. There was no imbalance. (see how easy that is?) Nice point you are making there. That is certainly a valid explanation of why the Terran race had so much success in earlier GSLs. MMA, MKP, MVP all can play random at Top 50 GM in Korea. If they can do that, imagine if any one of them dedicated themselves to Zerg or Protoss. I'm guessing the results would be the same. sarcasm is really hard to read on the internet (this isn't even sarcastic, im genuinely confused). Im not even sure if you are agreeing or not. If you really think if the top terrans switching to zerg or protoss would allow them to start winning tournaments again, youre wrong, plus they have been winning http://sc2earnings.com/?year=2012just check out the earnings for this past half year. half of the top ten is terran =/ and only MVP has won a tournament since the queen buff. And that was 9 days after the buff when the season was pretty much over. Thorzain won a tournament today. Terrans got an all kill for NSHS.
And we have two Zerg champions in MLG and GESL this month.
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On June 18 2012 14:04 larse wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 13:58 the`postman wrote:On June 18 2012 13:51 jmbthirteen wrote:On June 18 2012 13:42 adeezy wrote:On June 18 2012 13:27 zmansman17 wrote:On June 18 2012 13:23 Sadist wrote:On June 18 2012 13:20 adeezy wrote:
There's a strong correlation to who has been winning tournaments to what the community complains most about in balance. The thing is, I feel like that's the weakest argument when it comes to balance because of just how much raw skill is involved, especially with the top Zergs who are dominating. DRG and Stephano are down right incredible players and their wins have honestly, less to do with balance and more to do with decision making and prowess.
I read about complaints about infestors and the fact remains is that you are supposed to spread brood war style before you engage, or if possible use HT's (for feedback) or ghost snipes to take them out, it makes sense that in order to stop a unit that is all micro that you need to use micro to counter it.
As for terran late game.... It's weird that in the beginning of the starcraft 2 metagame, zerg was considered the reactionary race, but now it's terran. I have a feeling this might continue to change.
I just feel like in general the game is very balanced compared to how it used to be which is good progress, but definitely could be better. Zerg feels like it's strong but to be honest it also just feels like the people who are the best at the game right now are just zerg players so it might skew balance perception. The best players who played the game previously were terran players. There was no imbalance. (see how easy that is?) Nice point you are making there. That is certainly a valid explanation of why the Terran race had so much success in earlier GSLs. MMA, MKP, MVP all can play random at Top 50 GM in Korea. If they can do that, imagine if any one of them dedicated themselves to Zerg or Protoss. I'm guessing the results would be the same. sarcasm is really hard to read on the internet (this isn't even sarcastic, im genuinely confused). Im not even sure if you are agreeing or not. If you really think if the top terrans switching to zerg or protoss would allow them to start winning tournaments again, youre wrong, plus they have been winning http://sc2earnings.com/?year=2012just check out the earnings for this past half year. half of the top ten is terran =/ and only MVP has won a tournament since the queen buff. And that was 9 days after the buff when the season was pretty much over. Thorzain won a tournament today. Terrans got an all kill for NSHS. And we have two Zerg champions in MLG and GESL this month.
awesome! Top six of MLG was two of each race, that was a great tourney race wise.
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On June 18 2012 13:58 the`postman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 13:51 jmbthirteen wrote:On June 18 2012 13:42 adeezy wrote:On June 18 2012 13:27 zmansman17 wrote:On June 18 2012 13:23 Sadist wrote:On June 18 2012 13:20 adeezy wrote:
There's a strong correlation to who has been winning tournaments to what the community complains most about in balance. The thing is, I feel like that's the weakest argument when it comes to balance because of just how much raw skill is involved, especially with the top Zergs who are dominating. DRG and Stephano are down right incredible players and their wins have honestly, less to do with balance and more to do with decision making and prowess.
I read about complaints about infestors and the fact remains is that you are supposed to spread brood war style before you engage, or if possible use HT's (for feedback) or ghost snipes to take them out, it makes sense that in order to stop a unit that is all micro that you need to use micro to counter it.
As for terran late game.... It's weird that in the beginning of the starcraft 2 metagame, zerg was considered the reactionary race, but now it's terran. I have a feeling this might continue to change.
I just feel like in general the game is very balanced compared to how it used to be which is good progress, but definitely could be better. Zerg feels like it's strong but to be honest it also just feels like the people who are the best at the game right now are just zerg players so it might skew balance perception. The best players who played the game previously were terran players. There was no imbalance. (see how easy that is?) Nice point you are making there. That is certainly a valid explanation of why the Terran race had so much success in earlier GSLs. MMA, MKP, MVP all can play random at Top 50 GM in Korea. If they can do that, imagine if any one of them dedicated themselves to Zerg or Protoss. I'm guessing the results would be the same. sarcasm is really hard to read on the internet (this isn't even sarcastic, im genuinely confused). Im not even sure if you are agreeing or not. If you really think if the top terrans switching to zerg or protoss would allow them to start winning tournaments again, youre wrong, plus they have been winning http://sc2earnings.com/?year=2012just check out the earnings for this past half year. half of the top ten is terran =/ and only MVP has won a tournament since the queen buff. And that was 9 days after the buff when the season was pretty much over. Thorzain won a tournament today. Terrans got an all kill for NSHS.
ok, you got me, Thorzain won an 8 player tournament where he beat LaLush and SortOf in the finals after losing to him in groups. Sorry, if Thorzain didn't win that tournament.... He was easily the best player there. Also, 5 of the 8 qualifiers were Zerg.
And Sculp beat KingKong and Curious. Did you even see the games? They were horrible. What about Symbol/Moon/Life/Losira all wrecking face in GSTL?
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On June 18 2012 14:09 the`postman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 14:04 larse wrote:On June 18 2012 13:58 the`postman wrote:On June 18 2012 13:51 jmbthirteen wrote:On June 18 2012 13:42 adeezy wrote:On June 18 2012 13:27 zmansman17 wrote:On June 18 2012 13:23 Sadist wrote:On June 18 2012 13:20 adeezy wrote:
There's a strong correlation to who has been winning tournaments to what the community complains most about in balance. The thing is, I feel like that's the weakest argument when it comes to balance because of just how much raw skill is involved, especially with the top Zergs who are dominating. DRG and Stephano are down right incredible players and their wins have honestly, less to do with balance and more to do with decision making and prowess.
I read about complaints about infestors and the fact remains is that you are supposed to spread brood war style before you engage, or if possible use HT's (for feedback) or ghost snipes to take them out, it makes sense that in order to stop a unit that is all micro that you need to use micro to counter it.
As for terran late game.... It's weird that in the beginning of the starcraft 2 metagame, zerg was considered the reactionary race, but now it's terran. I have a feeling this might continue to change.
I just feel like in general the game is very balanced compared to how it used to be which is good progress, but definitely could be better. Zerg feels like it's strong but to be honest it also just feels like the people who are the best at the game right now are just zerg players so it might skew balance perception. The best players who played the game previously were terran players. There was no imbalance. (see how easy that is?) Nice point you are making there. That is certainly a valid explanation of why the Terran race had so much success in earlier GSLs. MMA, MKP, MVP all can play random at Top 50 GM in Korea. If they can do that, imagine if any one of them dedicated themselves to Zerg or Protoss. I'm guessing the results would be the same. sarcasm is really hard to read on the internet (this isn't even sarcastic, im genuinely confused). Im not even sure if you are agreeing or not. If you really think if the top terrans switching to zerg or protoss would allow them to start winning tournaments again, youre wrong, plus they have been winning http://sc2earnings.com/?year=2012just check out the earnings for this past half year. half of the top ten is terran =/ and only MVP has won a tournament since the queen buff. And that was 9 days after the buff when the season was pretty much over. Thorzain won a tournament today. Terrans got an all kill for NSHS. And we have two Zerg champions in MLG and GESL this month. awesome! Top six of MLG was two of each race, that was a great tourney race wise.
top 3 of MLG Spring Arena 2, all Zerg. top 4 of the GESL, all Zerg. Ro16 at DH Summer, 7 Zerg (oh and no Korean Zergs attended). GSL Code A qualifiers 10 Zerg, 7 protoss, 4 terran.
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On June 18 2012 13:58 the`postman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 13:51 jmbthirteen wrote:On June 18 2012 13:42 adeezy wrote:On June 18 2012 13:27 zmansman17 wrote:On June 18 2012 13:23 Sadist wrote:On June 18 2012 13:20 adeezy wrote:
There's a strong correlation to who has been winning tournaments to what the community complains most about in balance. The thing is, I feel like that's the weakest argument when it comes to balance because of just how much raw skill is involved, especially with the top Zergs who are dominating. DRG and Stephano are down right incredible players and their wins have honestly, less to do with balance and more to do with decision making and prowess.
I read about complaints about infestors and the fact remains is that you are supposed to spread brood war style before you engage, or if possible use HT's (for feedback) or ghost snipes to take them out, it makes sense that in order to stop a unit that is all micro that you need to use micro to counter it.
As for terran late game.... It's weird that in the beginning of the starcraft 2 metagame, zerg was considered the reactionary race, but now it's terran. I have a feeling this might continue to change.
I just feel like in general the game is very balanced compared to how it used to be which is good progress, but definitely could be better. Zerg feels like it's strong but to be honest it also just feels like the people who are the best at the game right now are just zerg players so it might skew balance perception. The best players who played the game previously were terran players. There was no imbalance. (see how easy that is?) Nice point you are making there. That is certainly a valid explanation of why the Terran race had so much success in earlier GSLs. MMA, MKP, MVP all can play random at Top 50 GM in Korea. If they can do that, imagine if any one of them dedicated themselves to Zerg or Protoss. I'm guessing the results would be the same. sarcasm is really hard to read on the internet (this isn't even sarcastic, im genuinely confused). Im not even sure if you are agreeing or not. If you really think if the top terrans switching to zerg or protoss would allow them to start winning tournaments again, youre wrong, plus they have been winning http://sc2earnings.com/?year=2012just check out the earnings for this past half year. half of the top ten is terran =/ and only MVP has won a tournament since the queen buff. And that was 9 days after the buff when the season was pretty much over. Thorzain won a tournament today. Terrans got an all kill for NSHS.
Of course, that was after an 0/12 TvZ losing streak, and that was Sculp doing that Polt style "Bash my head into the wall until you're dead" build to completely avoid the lategame.
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On June 18 2012 14:17 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 14:09 the`postman wrote:On June 18 2012 14:04 larse wrote:On June 18 2012 13:58 the`postman wrote:On June 18 2012 13:51 jmbthirteen wrote:On June 18 2012 13:42 adeezy wrote:On June 18 2012 13:27 zmansman17 wrote:On June 18 2012 13:23 Sadist wrote:On June 18 2012 13:20 adeezy wrote:
There's a strong correlation to who has been winning tournaments to what the community complains most about in balance. The thing is, I feel like that's the weakest argument when it comes to balance because of just how much raw skill is involved, especially with the top Zergs who are dominating. DRG and Stephano are down right incredible players and their wins have honestly, less to do with balance and more to do with decision making and prowess.
I read about complaints about infestors and the fact remains is that you are supposed to spread brood war style before you engage, or if possible use HT's (for feedback) or ghost snipes to take them out, it makes sense that in order to stop a unit that is all micro that you need to use micro to counter it.
As for terran late game.... It's weird that in the beginning of the starcraft 2 metagame, zerg was considered the reactionary race, but now it's terran. I have a feeling this might continue to change.
I just feel like in general the game is very balanced compared to how it used to be which is good progress, but definitely could be better. Zerg feels like it's strong but to be honest it also just feels like the people who are the best at the game right now are just zerg players so it might skew balance perception. The best players who played the game previously were terran players. There was no imbalance. (see how easy that is?) Nice point you are making there. That is certainly a valid explanation of why the Terran race had so much success in earlier GSLs. MMA, MKP, MVP all can play random at Top 50 GM in Korea. If they can do that, imagine if any one of them dedicated themselves to Zerg or Protoss. I'm guessing the results would be the same. sarcasm is really hard to read on the internet (this isn't even sarcastic, im genuinely confused). Im not even sure if you are agreeing or not. If you really think if the top terrans switching to zerg or protoss would allow them to start winning tournaments again, youre wrong, plus they have been winning http://sc2earnings.com/?year=2012just check out the earnings for this past half year. half of the top ten is terran =/ and only MVP has won a tournament since the queen buff. And that was 9 days after the buff when the season was pretty much over. Thorzain won a tournament today. Terrans got an all kill for NSHS. And we have two Zerg champions in MLG and GESL this month. awesome! Top six of MLG was two of each race, that was a great tourney race wise. top 3 of MLG Spring Arena 2, all Zerg. top 4 of the GESL, all Zerg. Ro16 at DH Summer, 7 Zerg (oh and no Korean Zergs attended). GSL Code A qualifiers 10 Zerg, 7 protoss, 4 terran.
IPL RO20, 9 Terran 4 Zerg, GSL Code S RO16 7 Terran 2 Zerg, MLG Winter Championship Top 16 6 terran 3 zerg, IPL ToC 12 Terran 1 Zerg, Iron Squid RO8, 5 Terran 2 Zerg.
It's not hard to link tournament results to make matchups look imbalanced. Give the metagame time to sort itself out, doesn't look like it was too well balanced before the change.
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EPT
