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Problem:
Due to the speed of zerglings, earlygame ZvZ has little defenders advantage. This, and Banelings, make for an extremely volatile match up.
Solution:
This is more focused as a Quality of Life change for ZvZ, and not so much balance. It's designed to target the problem and as little else as possible. The key here is lings.
In HotS, give Hatcheries a spore spell ability. This damages light units for 1 health per second in an area around the hatch. It is not a constant aura, that permits no counterplay. Instead, it casts for 10 seconds, with a 20 second cooldown. This allows the opponent to "bait" the spell out, with a fake attack, and then attack 10 seconds later when the spell is on cooldown. It adds interesting decisions, and allows the defender an option that might buy a little bit of time.
The spell is more effective against large groups. Dealing 1 damage to 6 lings is only 6 missing HP, but dealing 1 damage to 30 lings is far more -- though its still low per unit.
Intended Effects:
1) Ling all-ins are slightly weaker. It stops situations where a player made just a few lings short, and the ling count snowballs out of control.
2) Because it's mostly effective against lings, it provides a light safety net in ling-bling wars. It would do nothing to deter blings running in to kill lings or drones, but after blings are exchanged, the defender still has a slight advantage. The spell can either stall the attacker for 10 seconds (about half the build time of a ling, allowing the defender a little more time to get their replacement lings out to defend their economy, assuming they have larva) or the attacker can let their lings fall into the yellow to push their advantage.
3) Offers a very slight counter to muta transitions. Again, without anything to actually kill them, 10 damage on a muta isn't much, but it can help queens defend a little more.
Side Effects:
ZvZ
1) For good or ill, six pool in ZvZ would be completely dead. If this is a bad thing... the spell could require a completed spawning pool. This would allow the six pool to still do some damage, but make it much less likely to be game-ending. But 6pool is bad, so I'm not sure this is relevant.
2) Scouting drones would take a bit of extra damage if the spell did not require a pool. You might use the spell deter a drone from scouting tech, but it's still such a small amount of damage, it just lets you kill them in one or two less hits.
ZvT
1) Early game natural expansion marine harass significantly weakened. Maybe. It all depends on baiting out the spell. Bunkers would protect the units from the spore spell. I don't know if this would be good. I fear with the queen range buff, it might be too much. Testing would have to tell.
2) Hellions. Hellions are fast and a bit fragile. This would make ones diving into the base a bit easier to pick off, but not much.
ZvP
Zealot, Phoenix, and Dark Templar would hardly be effected. A zealot bathing in spores for the full duration of the spell would only lose 7.5% of his health. In that time they can kill a whole drone line or the hatch. Phoenix are in and out and shields regen. The damage might allow one or two more to be picked off in the course of 1000 games, but not much more. DTs would not be effected, because they either are not detected and slaughtering, or are detected and soon dead.
Conclusion:
Maybe it's too specific of a spell, seeing how little it effects the rest of the game. And I do worry about the effects on TvZ early game stuff. It might even be good there, but I'm not sure.
On the other hand, it could make ZvZ's most unstable element far more stable, and make the matchup a lot less of a coin toss/money bane shot focused.
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On June 18 2012 15:09 FoxyMayhem wrote:
Problem:
Due to the speed of zerglings, earlygame ZvZ has little defenders advantage. This, and Banelings, make for an extremely volatile match up.
Solution:
This is more focused as a Quality of Life change for ZvZ, and not so much balance. It's designed to target the problem and as little else as possible. The key here is lings.
In HotS, give Hatcheries a spore spell ability. This damages light units for 1 health per second in an area around the hatch. It is not a constant aura, that permits no counterplay. Instead, it casts for 10 seconds, with a 20 second cooldown. This allows the opponent to "bait" the spell out, with a fake attack, and then attack 10 seconds later when the spell is on cooldown. It adds interesting decisions, and allows the defender an option that might buy a little bit of time.
The spell is more effective against large groups. Dealing 1 damage to 6 lings is only 6 missing HP, but dealing 1 damage to 30 lings is far more -- though its still low per unit.
Intended Effects:
1) Ling all-ins are slightly weaker. It stops situations where a player made just a few lings short, and the ling count snowballs out of control.
2) Because it's mostly effective against lings, it provides a light safety net in ling-bling wars. It would do nothing to deter blings running in to kill lings or drones, but after blings are exchanged, the defender still has a slight advantage. The spell can either stall the attacker for 10 seconds (about half the build time of a ling, allowing the defender a little more time to get their replacement lings out to defend their economy, assuming they have larva) or the attacker can let their lings fall into the yellow to push their advantage.
3) Offers a very slight counter to muta transitions. Again, without anything to actually kill them, 10 damage on a muta isn't much, but it can help queens defend a little more.
Side Effects:
ZvZ
1) For good or ill, six pool in ZvZ would be completely dead. If this is a bad thing... the spell could require a completed spawning pool. This would allow the six pool to still do some damage, but make it much less likely to be game-ending. But 6pool is bad, so I'm not sure this is relevant.
2) Scouting drones would take a bit of extra damage if the spell did not require a pool. You might use the spell deter a drone from scouting tech, but it's still such a small amount of damage, it just lets you kill them in one or two less hits.
ZvT
1) Early game natural expansion marine harass significantly weakened. Maybe. It all depends on baiting out the spell. Bunkers would protect the units from the spore spell. I don't know if this would be good. I fear with the queen range buff, it might be too much. Testing would have to tell.
2) Hellions. Hellions are fast and a bit fragile. This would make ones diving into the base a bit easier to pick off, but not much.
ZvP
Zealot, Phoenix, and Dark Templar would hardly be effected. A zealot bathing in spores for the full duration of the spell would only lose 7.5% of his health. In that time they can kill a whole drone line or the hatch. Phoenix are in and out and shields regen. The damage might allow one or two more to be picked off in the course of 1000 games, but not much more. DTs would not be effected, because they either are not detected and slaughtering, or are detected and soon dead.
Conclusion:
Maybe it's too specific of a spell, seeing how little it effects the rest of the game. And I do worry about the effects on TvZ early game stuff. It might even be good there, but I'm not sure.
On the other hand, it could make ZvZ's most unstable element far more stable, and make the matchup a lot less of a coin toss/money bane shot focused.
I think that, as you said, it's "too specific of a spell." It wouldn't play much of a role outside of mass-ling scenarios and bunker pressure. Maybe another good solution, would to make it so that creep isn't globally beneficial to all zergs. What I mean by this, is that maybe creep that is generated by P1's hatcheries and tumors, should only give a speed boost to P1 (and any of his zerg allies, if it's a team game), and likewise for P2. This would also lower the amount of spine-crawler + early pool cheese that we see, as P2 wouldn't be able to build a spine on P1's creep.
One potential problem would be discerning whose creep is whose if P1's and P2's creep ever touch in the middle of the map. Maybe clicking on one of your tumors could give your creep an aura, similar to how clicking on a pylon gives it's power-field an aura.
But I also think that high-level ZvZ has become slightly less volatile recently. Sure we still see some ling-bling wars, but I feel like ~75% of the high-level ZvZ's I make at least make it to 2 base v 2 base roach play (or muta play), or further so a change isn't completely necessary. But diamond and below, ZvZ is definitely still too volatile to generate consistently good matches.
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Complaint
Problem: Zerg and Protoss tier 1, not able to hit air. Zerg being pretty dead against cloaked banshees unless the zerg actually scouts it, same goes for toss. Terrans have t1 marines (shoot air) and scan.
Solution: Overseer at hatchery tech, 10-15 sec duration. Observer from gateway (Not warp gate, gateway). 10-15 sec duration. You can only have 1 observer/overseer made every 5 minutes, so no mass contaminate or mass map vision.
Intended Effects: Banshee rushes are as weak vs Z and P as they are vs T. No other units (except cloaked) could end the game.
Side Effects: Burrowed infestor harass, DT rushes, burrowed roach rushes, ghost rushes, anything that involves cloak/Sblocker might be less effective.
Opinions, anyone?
Edit: (Problem erg to Problem: Zerg)
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On June 18 2012 15:31 WarBobz wrote:Complaint Problem: Zerg and Protoss tier 1, not able to hit air. Zerg being pretty dead against cloaked banshees unless the zerg actually scouts it, same goes for toss. Terrans have t1 marines (shoot air) and scan. Solution: Overseer at hatchery tech, 10-15 sec duration. Observer from gateway (Not warp gate, gateway). 10-15 sec duration. You can only have 1 observer/overseer made every 5 minutes, so no mass contaminate or mass map vision. Intended Effects: Banshee rushes are as weak vs Z and P as they are vs T. No other units (except cloaked) could end the game. Side Effects: Burrowed infestor harass, DT rushes, burrowed roach rushes, ghost rushes, anything that involves cloak/Sblocker might be less effective. Opinions, anyone? Edit: (Problem erg to Problem: Zerg)
So in short, Zerg has too much problem with cloak banshees early game so you want to make it easier for Zerg to deal with them?
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On June 18 2012 14:31 the`postman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 14:17 jmbthirteen wrote:On June 18 2012 14:09 the`postman wrote:On June 18 2012 14:04 larse wrote:On June 18 2012 13:58 the`postman wrote:On June 18 2012 13:51 jmbthirteen wrote:On June 18 2012 13:42 adeezy wrote:On June 18 2012 13:27 zmansman17 wrote:On June 18 2012 13:23 Sadist wrote:On June 18 2012 13:20 adeezy wrote:
There's a strong correlation to who has been winning tournaments to what the community complains most about in balance. The thing is, I feel like that's the weakest argument when it comes to balance because of just how much raw skill is involved, especially with the top Zergs who are dominating. DRG and Stephano are down right incredible players and their wins have honestly, less to do with balance and more to do with decision making and prowess.
I read about complaints about infestors and the fact remains is that you are supposed to spread brood war style before you engage, or if possible use HT's (for feedback) or ghost snipes to take them out, it makes sense that in order to stop a unit that is all micro that you need to use micro to counter it.
As for terran late game.... It's weird that in the beginning of the starcraft 2 metagame, zerg was considered the reactionary race, but now it's terran. I have a feeling this might continue to change.
I just feel like in general the game is very balanced compared to how it used to be which is good progress, but definitely could be better. Zerg feels like it's strong but to be honest it also just feels like the people who are the best at the game right now are just zerg players so it might skew balance perception. The best players who played the game previously were terran players. There was no imbalance. (see how easy that is?) Nice point you are making there. That is certainly a valid explanation of why the Terran race had so much success in earlier GSLs. MMA, MKP, MVP all can play random at Top 50 GM in Korea. If they can do that, imagine if any one of them dedicated themselves to Zerg or Protoss. I'm guessing the results would be the same. sarcasm is really hard to read on the internet (this isn't even sarcastic, im genuinely confused). Im not even sure if you are agreeing or not. If you really think if the top terrans switching to zerg or protoss would allow them to start winning tournaments again, youre wrong, plus they have been winning http://sc2earnings.com/?year=2012just check out the earnings for this past half year. half of the top ten is terran =/ and only MVP has won a tournament since the queen buff. And that was 9 days after the buff when the season was pretty much over. Thorzain won a tournament today. Terrans got an all kill for NSHS. And we have two Zerg champions in MLG and GESL this month. awesome! Top six of MLG was two of each race, that was a great tourney race wise. top 3 of MLG Spring Arena 2, all Zerg. top 4 of the GESL, all Zerg. Ro16 at DH Summer, 7 Zerg (oh and no Korean Zergs attended). GSL Code A qualifiers 10 Zerg, 7 protoss, 4 terran. IPL RO20, 9 Terran 4 Zerg, GSL Code S RO16 7 Terran 2 Zerg, MLG Winter Championship Top 16 6 terran 3 zerg, IPL ToC 12 Terran 1 Zerg, Iron Squid RO8, 5 Terran 2 Zerg. It's not hard to link tournament results to make matchups look imbalanced. Give the metagame time to sort itself out, doesn't look like it was too well balanced before the change.
Problem is that every torunament in last weeks is dominated by Zergs.Look at TSL qualifiers(3 of them, in Korea 6 of Top 8 were Zergs), Dreamhack(Zerg is only race without Koreans yet they still doing best), MLG(TvZ was 40% in MLG overall), Gigabyte(TOP 4 Zergs), GSL UaD, GSTL.
If you dont see the problem i dont know what to say.
Before the patch TvZ was around 48-52% for several months, after patch 55%.
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On June 18 2012 15:31 WarBobz wrote:Complaint Problem: Zerg and Protoss tier 1, not able to hit air. Zerg being pretty dead against cloaked banshees unless the zerg actually scouts it, same goes for toss. Terrans have t1 marines (shoot air) and scan. Solution: Overseer at hatchery tech, 10-15 sec duration. Observer from gateway (Not warp gate, gateway). 10-15 sec duration. You can only have 1 observer/overseer made every 5 minutes, so no mass contaminate or mass map vision. Intended Effects: Banshee rushes are as weak vs Z and P as they are vs T. No other units (except cloaked) could end the game. Side Effects: Burrowed infestor harass, DT rushes, burrowed roach rushes, ghost rushes, anything that involves cloak/Sblocker might be less effective. Opinions, anyone? Edit: (Problem erg to Problem: Zerg)
15 seconds of detection on a 5 minute cooldown won't do anything. The banshee will just fly away and come back 15 seconds later. Unless by duration you mean build time then yeah I guess that is a way to do it.
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On June 18 2012 15:39 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 14:31 the`postman wrote:On June 18 2012 14:17 jmbthirteen wrote:On June 18 2012 14:09 the`postman wrote:On June 18 2012 14:04 larse wrote:On June 18 2012 13:58 the`postman wrote:On June 18 2012 13:51 jmbthirteen wrote:On June 18 2012 13:42 adeezy wrote:On June 18 2012 13:27 zmansman17 wrote:On June 18 2012 13:23 Sadist wrote:
[quote]
The best players who played the game previously were terran players.
There was no imbalance. (see how easy that is?)
Nice point you are making there. That is certainly a valid explanation of why the Terran race had so much success in earlier GSLs. MMA, MKP, MVP all can play random at Top 50 GM in Korea. If they can do that, imagine if any one of them dedicated themselves to Zerg or Protoss. I'm guessing the results would be the same. sarcasm is really hard to read on the internet (this isn't even sarcastic, im genuinely confused). Im not even sure if you are agreeing or not. If you really think if the top terrans switching to zerg or protoss would allow them to start winning tournaments again, youre wrong, plus they have been winning http://sc2earnings.com/?year=2012just check out the earnings for this past half year. half of the top ten is terran =/ and only MVP has won a tournament since the queen buff. And that was 9 days after the buff when the season was pretty much over. Thorzain won a tournament today. Terrans got an all kill for NSHS. And we have two Zerg champions in MLG and GESL this month. awesome! Top six of MLG was two of each race, that was a great tourney race wise. top 3 of MLG Spring Arena 2, all Zerg. top 4 of the GESL, all Zerg. Ro16 at DH Summer, 7 Zerg (oh and no Korean Zergs attended). GSL Code A qualifiers 10 Zerg, 7 protoss, 4 terran. IPL RO20, 9 Terran 4 Zerg, GSL Code S RO16 7 Terran 2 Zerg, MLG Winter Championship Top 16 6 terran 3 zerg, IPL ToC 12 Terran 1 Zerg, Iron Squid RO8, 5 Terran 2 Zerg. It's not hard to link tournament results to make matchups look imbalanced. Give the metagame time to sort itself out, doesn't look like it was too well balanced before the change. Problem is that every torunament in last weeks is dominated by Zergs.Look at TSL qualifiers(3 of them, in Korea 6 of Top 8 were Zergs), Dreamhack(Zerg is only race without Koreans yet they still doing best), MLG(TvZ was 40% in MLG overall), Gigabyte(TOP 4 Zergs), GSL UaD, GSTL. If you dont see the problem i dont know what to say. Before the patch TvZ was around 48-52% for several months, after patch 55%.
There's always a blip after a change. I feel like terrans find it hardest to adapt immediately after a change, but eventually figure it out. Zergs seem to adapt quickest and Protoss players in the middle. I'm guessing getting raped in disgusting ways at the beginning of sc2 has left zergs in a better mental position than the other races. I'd say that given another month or 2 and there will be a change in the % again
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On June 18 2012 15:31 WarBobz wrote:Complaint Problem: Zerg and Protoss tier 1, not able to hit air. Zerg being pretty dead against cloaked banshees unless the zerg actually scouts it, same goes for toss. Terrans have t1 marines (shoot air) and scan. Solution: Overseer at hatchery tech, 10-15 sec duration. Observer from gateway (Not warp gate, gateway). 10-15 sec duration. You can only have 1 observer/overseer made every 5 minutes, so no mass contaminate or mass map vision. Intended Effects: Banshee rushes are as weak vs Z and P as they are vs T. No other units (except cloaked) could end the game. Side Effects: Burrowed infestor harass, DT rushes, burrowed roach rushes, ghost rushes, anything that involves cloak/Sblocker might be less effective. Opinions, anyone? Edit: (Problem erg to Problem: Zerg)
You can't be serious, every zerg and toss has anti air by the time a cloaked banchee arrives...stalkers, queens? The whole point of rushing to something cloaked is to do significant damage to make up for your lack of army (due to the heavy teching). If it became super easy to counter this with early detection these strategies would never be used again coz you'd simply die to a counter attack.
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On June 18 2012 15:43 OptimusYale wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 15:39 keglu wrote:On June 18 2012 14:31 the`postman wrote:On June 18 2012 14:17 jmbthirteen wrote:On June 18 2012 14:09 the`postman wrote:On June 18 2012 14:04 larse wrote:On June 18 2012 13:58 the`postman wrote:On June 18 2012 13:51 jmbthirteen wrote:On June 18 2012 13:42 adeezy wrote:On June 18 2012 13:27 zmansman17 wrote:
[quote]
That is certainly a valid explanation of why the Terran race had so much success in earlier GSLs. MMA, MKP, MVP all can play random at Top 50 GM in Korea. If they can do that, imagine if any one of them dedicated themselves to Zerg or Protoss. I'm guessing the results would be the same. sarcasm is really hard to read on the internet (this isn't even sarcastic, im genuinely confused). Im not even sure if you are agreeing or not. If you really think if the top terrans switching to zerg or protoss would allow them to start winning tournaments again, youre wrong, plus they have been winning http://sc2earnings.com/?year=2012just check out the earnings for this past half year. half of the top ten is terran =/ and only MVP has won a tournament since the queen buff. And that was 9 days after the buff when the season was pretty much over. Thorzain won a tournament today. Terrans got an all kill for NSHS. And we have two Zerg champions in MLG and GESL this month. awesome! Top six of MLG was two of each race, that was a great tourney race wise. top 3 of MLG Spring Arena 2, all Zerg. top 4 of the GESL, all Zerg. Ro16 at DH Summer, 7 Zerg (oh and no Korean Zergs attended). GSL Code A qualifiers 10 Zerg, 7 protoss, 4 terran. IPL RO20, 9 Terran 4 Zerg, GSL Code S RO16 7 Terran 2 Zerg, MLG Winter Championship Top 16 6 terran 3 zerg, IPL ToC 12 Terran 1 Zerg, Iron Squid RO8, 5 Terran 2 Zerg. It's not hard to link tournament results to make matchups look imbalanced. Give the metagame time to sort itself out, doesn't look like it was too well balanced before the change. Problem is that every torunament in last weeks is dominated by Zergs.Look at TSL qualifiers(3 of them, in Korea 6 of Top 8 were Zergs), Dreamhack(Zerg is only race without Koreans yet they still doing best), MLG(TvZ was 40% in MLG overall), Gigabyte(TOP 4 Zergs), GSL UaD, GSTL. If you dont see the problem i dont know what to say. Before the patch TvZ was around 48-52% for several months, after patch 55%. There's always a blip after a change. I feel like terrans find it hardest to adapt immediately after a change, but eventually figure it out. Zergs seem to adapt quickest and Protoss players in the middle. I'm guessing getting raped in disgusting ways at the beginning of sc2 has left zergs in a better mental position than the other races. I'd say that given another month or 2 and there will be a change in the % again
It's a lot easier to adapt to buffs than to nerfs. When roach range was increased all you had to do was play a few games massing roaches to see what it was like. When stim research time was increased the timings had to be figured out all over again.
Would zergs be quick to adapt if fungal all of a sudden no longer hit air units or stopped rooting units?
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On June 18 2012 12:47 sGs.Stregon wrote:
Supply before Barracks
Barracks build time increased
Reaper nerfed
Battlecruiser nerfed
Thor nerfed
Ghost nerfed ((emp and snipe))
Siege Tank nerfed
Blue Flame nerfed
Viking nerfed
Bunker build time increased
**note I might have missed something, but im not sure**
((on top of the other two races recieving buffs in some aspect to help counter said nerfed units^))
But hey, at Least Terran has Marines+stim right? apperantly Marine+stim is equal to or greater than the most rounded out list of units to choose to build from. I dont see what all the hub-bub is about. Zerg is strong in all aspects of the game, Protoss is strong late game, Terran has Marines+stim, that they have to do damage with early game ((in the form of an all-in)) to stand a chance later in the game ((by winning with their initial all-in)). Sounds like some legit balancing too me.
Yep that's pretty much the core problem of Terran. The only truly GOOD units we have is marine/marauder/medivac and our higher tech either got nerfed for no reason or was already trash. Everything else that is higher tech is mediocre in comparison to the other races (ghosts vs infestors or hts, thors vs blords or collosus) . Tanks are garbage against Toss and bad against Zerg late game, Thors anti-air is a joke, ghosts nerfed into oblivion, Ravens would be good if HSM wasn't complete garbage...
Have you noticed how Terran even in TvZ reverted to using MMM now? we're seeing less and less tanks in TvZ. Just shows that the only good units are marine marauder medivac. Blizzard f'd up big time by making bio too good, so they had to compensate by making everything else too weak. I'm honestly baffled that problem has gone on so long, but I REALLY hope they will do something for HOTS. Not only is it boring to watch MMM in every game in every non-mirror match-up, but it also makes it very difficult for Terran to win late game...
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I think Raven should have its speed increased.
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On June 18 2012 15:54 Black[CAT] wrote:
I think Raven should have its speed increased.
Its speed should be increased or the range on its spells should be increased. A slow caster with short range spells pretty much has to suicide to cast its spells. A slow caster with long range spells is actually useful like the HT. Imagine how bad HT would be if storm and feedback had range 6. It could be easily sniped by most ranged units and would be screwed if hit by fungal. The raven is easily sniped by most ranged units, can't retaliate if hit by fungal aside from spamming a few autoturrets or a PDD before it dies which just makes the enemy back up a bit before engaging, and has the added drawback of tending to clump up a lot if you don't take care to split every time you move your army.
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On June 18 2012 16:14 SnipedSoul wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 15:54 Black[CAT] wrote:
I think Raven should have its speed increased. Its speed should be increased or the range on its spells should be increased. A slow caster with short range spells pretty much has to suicide to cast its spells. A slow caster with long range spells is actually useful like the HT. Imagine how bad HT would be if storm and feedback had range 6. It could be easily sniped by most ranged units and would be screwed if hit by fungal. The raven is easily sniped by most ranged units, can't retaliate if hit by fungal aside from spamming a few autoturrets or a PDD before it dies which just makes the enemy back up a bit before engaging, and has the added drawback of tending to clump up a lot if you don't take care to split every time you move your army.
I feel like the Raven, as a unit, is designed to control space as opposed to being a flying casting unit of doom.
Auto-turrets - immobile structure that can be planted at a location for some continued damage. Support / Harass.
PDD - immobile structure that can be planted at a location for some continued defence. Support.
Seeker Missile - high damage AOE spell that can be outrun by some units. Damage.
The response to a Seeker Missile even occurring can be the same as a response to a nuke: run away. But one is far easier to land because you just aim at the ground from a long range over aiming at a unit at such a short range that almost every AntiAir unit can shoot you from.
Anyway, my point in listing the abilities is that I feel like the Raven is a confused unit. It doesn't know if it wants to control space, kill units, harass or support. I would honestly prefer the Raven to be an awesome support unit because the first two abilities are more along those lines whereas battlecruisers should be the flying doom of the terran army. That and it honestly feels like terran don't do support. Protoss have sentries + mothership + warp prism (dropship) [+ oracle] for support. Zerg have Queens + overlords (dropship) [+ viper]. Terran support appears to be basically medivac (dropship) + raven.
I don't know what a good raven support ability would be, but I'm sure there's a tonne of potential ideas out there.
So in short:
- I'd like the raven to be a better support, not the powerful endgame caster.
- Make another unit in lategame terran more powerful instead.
- Keep ghosts as the powerful terran caster. And by "keep" I mean "make ghosts the powerful terran caster" again. I'd like to see the EMP nerf reverted. Snipe nerf can stay, or be slightly modified so long as it remains to not be the counter-to-all-zerg-t3.
Regardless I think any terran buff patch would need to package some changes, not just buff one number somewhere. I prefer buffs to nerfs tbh.
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On June 18 2012 15:43 OptimusYale wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 15:39 keglu wrote:On June 18 2012 14:31 the`postman wrote:On June 18 2012 14:17 jmbthirteen wrote:On June 18 2012 14:09 the`postman wrote:On June 18 2012 14:04 larse wrote:On June 18 2012 13:58 the`postman wrote:On June 18 2012 13:51 jmbthirteen wrote:On June 18 2012 13:42 adeezy wrote:On June 18 2012 13:27 zmansman17 wrote:
[quote]
That is certainly a valid explanation of why the Terran race had so much success in earlier GSLs. MMA, MKP, MVP all can play random at Top 50 GM in Korea. If they can do that, imagine if any one of them dedicated themselves to Zerg or Protoss. I'm guessing the results would be the same. sarcasm is really hard to read on the internet (this isn't even sarcastic, im genuinely confused). Im not even sure if you are agreeing or not. If you really think if the top terrans switching to zerg or protoss would allow them to start winning tournaments again, youre wrong, plus they have been winning http://sc2earnings.com/?year=2012just check out the earnings for this past half year. half of the top ten is terran =/ and only MVP has won a tournament since the queen buff. And that was 9 days after the buff when the season was pretty much over. Thorzain won a tournament today. Terrans got an all kill for NSHS. And we have two Zerg champions in MLG and GESL this month. awesome! Top six of MLG was two of each race, that was a great tourney race wise. top 3 of MLG Spring Arena 2, all Zerg. top 4 of the GESL, all Zerg. Ro16 at DH Summer, 7 Zerg (oh and no Korean Zergs attended). GSL Code A qualifiers 10 Zerg, 7 protoss, 4 terran. IPL RO20, 9 Terran 4 Zerg, GSL Code S RO16 7 Terran 2 Zerg, MLG Winter Championship Top 16 6 terran 3 zerg, IPL ToC 12 Terran 1 Zerg, Iron Squid RO8, 5 Terran 2 Zerg. It's not hard to link tournament results to make matchups look imbalanced. Give the metagame time to sort itself out, doesn't look like it was too well balanced before the change. Problem is that every torunament in last weeks is dominated by Zergs.Look at TSL qualifiers(3 of them, in Korea 6 of Top 8 were Zergs), Dreamhack(Zerg is only race without Koreans yet they still doing best), MLG(TvZ was 40% in MLG overall), Gigabyte(TOP 4 Zergs), GSL UaD, GSTL. If you dont see the problem i dont know what to say. Before the patch TvZ was around 48-52% for several months, after patch 55%. There's always a blip after a change. I feel like terrans find it hardest to adapt immediately after a change, but eventually figure it out. Zergs seem to adapt quickest and Protoss players in the middle. I'm guessing getting raped in disgusting ways at the beginning of sc2 has left zergs in a better mental position than the other races. I'd say that given another month or 2 and there will be a change in the % again
How long were Zergs doing roach+corruptor against the Protoss deathball? Like a year?
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The true problem is the raven beeing unsecure about it's sexual identity...
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On June 18 2012 16:35 bittman wrote:
- Keep ghosts as the powerful terran caster. And by "keep" I mean "make ghosts the powerful terran caster" again. I'd like to see the EMP nerf reverted. Snipe nerf can stay, or be slightly modified so long as it remains to not be the counter-to-all-zerg-t3.
Can someone explain to me why it's bad if Ghosts counter broodlord/ultra? Why can't Zerg just remax on fully upgraded midgame units which Ghosts are terrible against?
Terran is by far the slowest to transition to a different composition, so it seems strange to expect them to have mutually exclusive counters to Hive tech.
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On June 18 2012 15:43 OptimusYale wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 15:39 keglu wrote:On June 18 2012 14:31 the`postman wrote:On June 18 2012 14:17 jmbthirteen wrote:On June 18 2012 14:09 the`postman wrote:On June 18 2012 14:04 larse wrote:On June 18 2012 13:58 the`postman wrote:On June 18 2012 13:51 jmbthirteen wrote:On June 18 2012 13:42 adeezy wrote:On June 18 2012 13:27 zmansman17 wrote:
[quote]
That is certainly a valid explanation of why the Terran race had so much success in earlier GSLs. MMA, MKP, MVP all can play random at Top 50 GM in Korea. If they can do that, imagine if any one of them dedicated themselves to Zerg or Protoss. I'm guessing the results would be the same. sarcasm is really hard to read on the internet (this isn't even sarcastic, im genuinely confused). Im not even sure if you are agreeing or not. If you really think if the top terrans switching to zerg or protoss would allow them to start winning tournaments again, youre wrong, plus they have been winning http://sc2earnings.com/?year=2012just check out the earnings for this past half year. half of the top ten is terran =/ and only MVP has won a tournament since the queen buff. And that was 9 days after the buff when the season was pretty much over. Thorzain won a tournament today. Terrans got an all kill for NSHS. And we have two Zerg champions in MLG and GESL this month. awesome! Top six of MLG was two of each race, that was a great tourney race wise. top 3 of MLG Spring Arena 2, all Zerg. top 4 of the GESL, all Zerg. Ro16 at DH Summer, 7 Zerg (oh and no Korean Zergs attended). GSL Code A qualifiers 10 Zerg, 7 protoss, 4 terran. IPL RO20, 9 Terran 4 Zerg, GSL Code S RO16 7 Terran 2 Zerg, MLG Winter Championship Top 16 6 terran 3 zerg, IPL ToC 12 Terran 1 Zerg, Iron Squid RO8, 5 Terran 2 Zerg. It's not hard to link tournament results to make matchups look imbalanced. Give the metagame time to sort itself out, doesn't look like it was too well balanced before the change. Problem is that every torunament in last weeks is dominated by Zergs.Look at TSL qualifiers(3 of them, in Korea 6 of Top 8 were Zergs), Dreamhack(Zerg is only race without Koreans yet they still doing best), MLG(TvZ was 40% in MLG overall), Gigabyte(TOP 4 Zergs), GSL UaD, GSTL. If you dont see the problem i dont know what to say. Before the patch TvZ was around 48-52% for several months, after patch 55%. There's always a blip after a change. I feel like terrans find it hardest to adapt immediately after a change, but eventually figure it out. Zergs seem to adapt quickest and Protoss players in the middle. I'm guessing getting raped in disgusting ways at the beginning of sc2 has left zergs in a better mental position than the other races. I'd say that given another month or 2 and there will be a change in the % again
Well if we're talking about ZvT, it's not that hard to go along with the buffs to your race (Z getting essentially only buffs) and the nerfs to the opponent's race (T getting essentially only nerfs). You make it sound like Zerg players should be praised for adapting so quickly to game changes. They're being handed out huge buffs constantly, I'd be in a pretty great mental position too if I were them.
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On June 18 2012 15:43 OptimusYale wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 15:39 keglu wrote:On June 18 2012 14:31 the`postman wrote:On June 18 2012 14:17 jmbthirteen wrote:On June 18 2012 14:09 the`postman wrote:On June 18 2012 14:04 larse wrote:On June 18 2012 13:58 the`postman wrote:On June 18 2012 13:51 jmbthirteen wrote:On June 18 2012 13:42 adeezy wrote:On June 18 2012 13:27 zmansman17 wrote:
[quote]
That is certainly a valid explanation of why the Terran race had so much success in earlier GSLs. MMA, MKP, MVP all can play random at Top 50 GM in Korea. If they can do that, imagine if any one of them dedicated themselves to Zerg or Protoss. I'm guessing the results would be the same. sarcasm is really hard to read on the internet (this isn't even sarcastic, im genuinely confused). Im not even sure if you are agreeing or not. If you really think if the top terrans switching to zerg or protoss would allow them to start winning tournaments again, youre wrong, plus they have been winning http://sc2earnings.com/?year=2012just check out the earnings for this past half year. half of the top ten is terran =/ and only MVP has won a tournament since the queen buff. And that was 9 days after the buff when the season was pretty much over. Thorzain won a tournament today. Terrans got an all kill for NSHS. And we have two Zerg champions in MLG and GESL this month. awesome! Top six of MLG was two of each race, that was a great tourney race wise. top 3 of MLG Spring Arena 2, all Zerg. top 4 of the GESL, all Zerg. Ro16 at DH Summer, 7 Zerg (oh and no Korean Zergs attended). GSL Code A qualifiers 10 Zerg, 7 protoss, 4 terran. IPL RO20, 9 Terran 4 Zerg, GSL Code S RO16 7 Terran 2 Zerg, MLG Winter Championship Top 16 6 terran 3 zerg, IPL ToC 12 Terran 1 Zerg, Iron Squid RO8, 5 Terran 2 Zerg. It's not hard to link tournament results to make matchups look imbalanced. Give the metagame time to sort itself out, doesn't look like it was too well balanced before the change. Problem is that every torunament in last weeks is dominated by Zergs.Look at TSL qualifiers(3 of them, in Korea 6 of Top 8 were Zergs), Dreamhack(Zerg is only race without Koreans yet they still doing best), MLG(TvZ was 40% in MLG overall), Gigabyte(TOP 4 Zergs), GSL UaD, GSTL. If you dont see the problem i dont know what to say. Before the patch TvZ was around 48-52% for several months, after patch 55%. There's always a blip after a change. I feel like terrans find it hardest to adapt immediately after a change, but eventually figure it out. Zergs seem to adapt quickest and Protoss players in the middle. I'm guessing getting raped in disgusting ways at the beginning of sc2 has left zergs in a better mental position than the other races. I'd say that given another month or 2 and there will be a change in the % again
I can't say I agree with any of this. Zerg and Protoss players have had time And a Lot of help from Blizzard in the form of Terran nerfs and their own race's unit buffs to adapt.
On June 18 2012 12:47 sGs.Stregon wrote:
Supply before Barracks
Barracks build time increased
Reaper nerfed
Battlecruiser nerfed
Thor nerfed
Ghost nerfed ((emp and snipe))
Siege Tank nerfed
Blue Flame nerfed
Viking nerfed
Bunker build time increased
**note I might have missed something, but im not sure**
((on top of the other two races recieving buffs in some aspect to help counter said nerfed units^))
But hey, at Least Terran has Marines+stim right? apperantly Marine+stim is equal to or greater than the most rounded out list of units to choose to build from. I dont see what all the hub-bub is about. Zerg is strong in all aspects of the game, Protoss is strong late game, Terran has Marines+stim, that they have to do damage with early game ((in the form of an all-in)) to stand a chance later in the game ((by winning with their initial all-in)). Sounds like some legit balancing too me.
The list of Terran nerfs a few posts up pretty much sums it up.
Sure you can say that Zergs and Protoss "adapted" to the metagame and Terran strategies, but you're leaving out how much help they received from Blizzard.
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On June 18 2012 17:12 yeint wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 16:35 bittman wrote:
- Keep ghosts as the powerful terran caster. And by "keep" I mean "make ghosts the powerful terran caster" again. I'd like to see the EMP nerf reverted. Snipe nerf can stay, or be slightly modified so long as it remains to not be the counter-to-all-zerg-t3. Can someone explain to me why it's bad if Ghosts counter broodlord/ultra? Why can't Zerg just remax on fully upgraded midgame units which Ghosts are terrible against? Terran is by far the slowest to transition to a different composition, so it seems strange to expect them to have mutually exclusive counters to Hive tech.
ssh, you can't go down the tech tree. Must keep making more big monsters against mass snipers. No zerglings, no, my precious, Browder will take care of us...
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On June 18 2012 17:21 Coffee Zombie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 17:12 yeint wrote:On June 18 2012 16:35 bittman wrote:
- Keep ghosts as the powerful terran caster. And by "keep" I mean "make ghosts the powerful terran caster" again. I'd like to see the EMP nerf reverted. Snipe nerf can stay, or be slightly modified so long as it remains to not be the counter-to-all-zerg-t3. Can someone explain to me why it's bad if Ghosts counter broodlord/ultra? Why can't Zerg just remax on fully upgraded midgame units which Ghosts are terrible against? Terran is by far the slowest to transition to a different composition, so it seems strange to expect them to have mutually exclusive counters to Hive tech. ssh, you can't go down the tech tree. Must keep making more big monsters against mass snipers. No zerglings, no, my precious, Browder will take care of us...
Not to mention the amount of micro required in making sure Ghosts weren't caught by some AOE Fungals, Splash or out of position. Compareed with the micro required to use Ghosts effectively against the relatively easier to use Broodlord/Ultras, I'm not sure what the problem is.
It was essentially the only late-game unit counter that Terran had that was good.
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EPT
