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Frex
Profile Joined March 2012
Finland888 Posts
June 18 2012 19:51 GMT
#4661
On June 18 2012 17:26 Eps wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 18 2012 17:21 Coffee Zombie wrote:
On June 18 2012 17:12 yeint wrote:
On June 18 2012 16:35 bittman wrote:
- Keep ghosts as the powerful terran caster. And by "keep" I mean "make ghosts the powerful terran caster" again. I'd like to see the EMP nerf reverted. Snipe nerf can stay, or be slightly modified so long as it remains to not be the counter-to-all-zerg-t3.


Can someone explain to me why it's bad if Ghosts counter broodlord/ultra? Why can't Zerg just remax on fully upgraded midgame units which Ghosts are terrible against?

Terran is by far the slowest to transition to a different composition, so it seems strange to expect them to have mutually exclusive counters to Hive tech.


ssh, you can't go down the tech tree. Must keep making more big monsters against mass snipers. No zerglings, no, my precious, Browder will take care of us...


Not to mention the amount of micro required in making sure Ghosts weren't caught by some AOE Fungals, Splash or out of position. Compareed with the micro required to use Ghosts effectively against the relatively easier to use Broodlord/Ultras, I'm not sure what the problem is.
It was essentially the only late-game unit counter that Terran had that was good.


And it was FUN unit to use. I still remember seeing nukes from Terrans natural to Zerg's fourth base in GSL, those games were amazing TvZ to watch.

I can't believe that what Blizzard has achieved in almost 2 years with Terran is that they literally made Thors, Battlecruisers and Ghosts so bad that they are so barely even worth making in majority of circumstances. And on top of that they never fixed Raven, the only thing they did with it was that they increased Seeker Missile speed and changed PDD to no longer stop Broodling spawn from Brood Lords. It's sad to see another unit with a lot of potential to become a vain unit.

I know Blizzard tries to make the game balanced, but if it means dumbing down the game to level that all we have is one opener and one unit composition then it's really poor balance, sure you can call it balance, but it's very poor one.


vorxaw
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada245 Posts
June 18 2012 20:03 GMT
#4662
I wonder if this will happen in HOTS?
Because most terrans having problems, more terrans will switch to HOTS before other races.
Because more terrans switch earlier, they figure out new units first, and win more at the start of HOTS.
Race that wins more at the start will be nerfed, where as race that wins more later will not be nerfed, because by then its "ip to the other races to catch up with metagame"

hope not lol
Noocta
Profile Joined June 2010
France12578 Posts
June 18 2012 20:38 GMT
#4663
On June 18 2012 23:06 Zealos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 18 2012 22:07 Riskr wrote:
Because they wanna sell HOTS so everyone hast to switch to guarantee $$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wouldn´t it be awesome,if you can buy new units through the RMAH in HOTS?
If you want balance,buy it!
jokes aside(it will not be a joke in the future:p),i fear the Raven will get removed from the game,or get stationary like mothership.

The mothership isn't going to be stationary. On topic - I feel like, with terrans often having an excess of gas in the late game, they should experiment more often with the raven. For instance, Thorzain versus Sheth on Metropolis during the RBL had some good raven usage.


We experiment with it.
But beside PDD ( which is overpriced in energy anyway ) or the lucky 4 / 5 Seeker in broodlords clump, the units itself is pretty bad.
" I'm not gonna fight you. I'm gonna kick your ass ! "
HeroMystic
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1217 Posts
June 18 2012 20:48 GMT
#4664
On June 19 2012 04:37 ZenithM wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 19 2012 04:34 monkybone wrote:
On June 18 2012 12:47 sGs.Stregon wrote:
Supply before Barracks
Barracks build time increased
Reaper nerfed
Battlecruiser nerfed
Thor nerfed
Ghost nerfed ((emp and snipe))
Siege Tank nerfed
Blue Flame nerfed
Viking nerfed
Bunker build time increased
**note I might have missed something, but im not sure**
((on top of the other two races recieving buffs in some aspect to help counter said nerfed units^))

But hey, at Least Terran has Marines+stim right? apperantly Marine+stim is equal to or greater than the most rounded out list of units to choose to build from. I dont see what all the hub-bub is about. Zerg is strong in all aspects of the game, Protoss is strong late game, Terran has Marines+stim, that they have to do damage with early game ((in the form of an all-in)) to stand a chance later in the game ((by winning with their initial all-in)). Sounds like some legit balancing too me.


This list of nerfs is irrelevant. Just because there are more than for Protoss and Zerg doesn't mean they weren't all warranted. That's faulty logic. What matters is the state of the game now, and how the last nerf was too severe.

This is true. Moreover, some of these nerfs (siege tank) happened in beta, which makes them even less relevant. Remember that Roaches were 1 supply and had 2 armor and monstrous regen back then :D


Siege Tank was nerfed shortly after retail (50 damage to 35 +15 vs Armored). Just sayin'.
ZenithM
Profile Joined February 2011
France15952 Posts
June 19 2012 04:15 GMT
#4665
On June 19 2012 05:48 HeroMystic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 19 2012 04:37 ZenithM wrote:
On June 19 2012 04:34 monkybone wrote:
On June 18 2012 12:47 sGs.Stregon wrote:
Supply before Barracks
Barracks build time increased
Reaper nerfed
Battlecruiser nerfed
Thor nerfed
Ghost nerfed ((emp and snipe))
Siege Tank nerfed
Blue Flame nerfed
Viking nerfed
Bunker build time increased
**note I might have missed something, but im not sure**
((on top of the other two races recieving buffs in some aspect to help counter said nerfed units^))

But hey, at Least Terran has Marines+stim right? apperantly Marine+stim is equal to or greater than the most rounded out list of units to choose to build from. I dont see what all the hub-bub is about. Zerg is strong in all aspects of the game, Protoss is strong late game, Terran has Marines+stim, that they have to do damage with early game ((in the form of an all-in)) to stand a chance later in the game ((by winning with their initial all-in)). Sounds like some legit balancing too me.


This list of nerfs is irrelevant. Just because there are more than for Protoss and Zerg doesn't mean they weren't all warranted. That's faulty logic. What matters is the state of the game now, and how the last nerf was too severe.

This is true. Moreover, some of these nerfs (siege tank) happened in beta, which makes them even less relevant. Remember that Roaches were 1 supply and had 2 armor and monstrous regen back then :D


Siege Tank was nerfed shortly after retail (50 damage to 35 +15 vs Armored). Just sayin'.

My bad, thought this one was from beta. Kinda ridiculous from Blizzard to have let it go in the final build like that :D
So all these changes were indeed post release, again, my bad, sorry
Chaggi
Profile Joined August 2010
Korea (South)1936 Posts
June 19 2012 11:09 GMT
#4666
On June 18 2012 00:32 sCCrooked wrote:
So now its 2 threads being filled with this useless whining against Z? I still have one question that has not been answered in the least and is in fact the single most important thing anyone should be focusing on.

"Why are you trying to use the statistics of top Korean professionals to excuse your own issues in the vs Zerg matchup?"

The reason for this question is simple. According to the source you all are trying to use as some sort of proof as your vs Zerg issues, the international winrates are still even. Only the Korean winrate showed any sort of a balance skew and the timing of this statistic being taken is not even being noticed. The update happened right in the middle of the month and thus the stat. So already, the one thing that you guys are touting around as the ultimate proof that "Z is op" "T/P need buffs" is already shown to be a bad example.

This is all circumventing the main issue that you are all foreigner ladderers whether you like thinking of yourselves as that or not. You are not top Korean Code S pros and thusly you are NOT included at all in any way in that Korean statistic that showed the skew in TvZ. You can't claim your playstyle is up the par of MKP or the likes of him and you certainly can't claim that the Zergs you are facing are on par with the Code S Zergs either. Before anyone claims "Oh well my MMR puts me against pros sometimes", well then get the top Koreans to start whining like all of you are and maybe we'll be more interested in listening.

Otherwise, this is all just speculation from lower level ladder people who aren't even pro trying to use a pro stat that only took top Korean levels of skill into consideration. Do you realize how ridiculous and sad that makes your arguments look? You simply do not face the same levels of skill nor do you possess them so until the entire teams or Prime SlayerS etc come forward with these sorts of "whaaa balance whaaa my race whaaa buffs please", I just don't see the point in all this senseless excuse-making.

As for Protoss? Your situation isn't that skewed on the international level either. That same Korean stat shows that T or P have always been #1 in winrates while Z has been forced into #2 or more commonly the #3 spots. Before anyone tries to bring up the current GSTL winrates, that league is not even finished, do not try to use it as any sort of proof until it is.

If this month turns up with ridiculous Zerg winrates too, I'll retract my statements that the whining at the pro level is inexcusable but the whining at our level, the "common gamer" level is still ridiculous and its making the game a lot less appealing.

I'm running into countless T and P at the freaking top diamond/low-to-mid masters level on the NA server who literally BM me in the middle of games when they realize they're losing or who message me a thousand times after the game telling me my race is "easy" and "overpowered" and "zerg is instant-masters level" so that is why I was able to win. Not that I spend 6+ hours a day gaming. Not that I spend 2+ hours on top of the 6+ trying to watch VODs and learn from things like Belial's guides and memorizing builds. This attitude is beyond annoying and needs to be dealt with. Zerg have always been the underdogs until literally 3.5 weeks ago. We've been constantly having to adapt to Terran and Protoss builds changing because we're the reactionary race that has to react properly or we flat-out die. Perhaps its time you guys learned to change and react instead of trying to excuse your non-pro macro, non-pro decision making and non-pro mistakes.

Lastly, I dare anyone to seriously go up to DongRaeGue and tell him he shouldn't feel good at all about winning MLG because "he plays the easy race" and "it was stacked against both his T and P opponents in racial balance" or that he didn't deserve it. Because that is literally the attitude you people who side with this whining are portraying.

/rant off


You don't watch or read a lot of stuff then. Lots of people are saying that Zergs are really strong, lots of pros, and I'm pretty sure DRG even said it.

So, there you have it.
Coffeeling
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Finland250 Posts
June 19 2012 11:42 GMT
#4667
Yeah DRG pretty much said that the Terran's play just doesn't matter anymore. All that matters is whether DRG himself made a blunder or not. If he didn't, lights out for T.
Squee
Warzilla
Profile Joined December 2010
Czech Republic311 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-19 11:51:32
June 19 2012 11:50 GMT
#4668
On June 19 2012 20:42 Coffee Zombie wrote:
Yeah DRG pretty much said that the Terran's play just doesn't matter anymore. All that matters is whether DRG himself made a blunder or not. If he didn't, lights out for T.


Yeah and stephano said he cant die to protoss and well who got 2-0'd by protoss in dreamhack ? STEPHANO :D Dont forget that even pro players have their ego :D And plus would you link to DRGs interview where he said this... As far as i know TvZ is in very good shape... Plus seeker missile versus BLs ? Ravens own house
"AFTER LOST GAME - I usually run around in circles yelling "WHY OH GOD WHY" in my room, pointing towards the sky. After 5 to 10min ,i get tired and go back to playing"
-Celestial-
Profile Joined September 2011
United Kingdom3867 Posts
June 19 2012 11:58 GMT
#4669
As a Protoss I don't often sympathise with Terran (generally because of all the whining about the EMP nerf) but I do think Blizzard really dropped the ball with those TvZ changes. TvZ was a fairly solid matchup. They messed with it and now from what I've seen in watching games lately unless the Zerg totally screws up they seem to survive most things early game fairly easily.
"Protoss simultaneously feels unbeatably strong and unwinnably weak." - kcdc
SC_Ghost
Profile Joined June 2011
United Kingdom64 Posts
June 19 2012 12:07 GMT
#4670
Watch MarineKingPrime vs TSLSymbol for the entirety of the TvZ match-up. TvZ in its current form is far from "in good shape". After mid-game it's a long and inevitable struggle to cover ground for Terran. The current metagame is leading to Terrans playing more of an early, heavily aggressive style; rarely going further than 3 bases. If the game goes longer, Terran will find it harder to secure further bases, leading to a turtle-centric late-game style with drops being your strongest form of aggression (if Zerg vision is as efficient as it should be, drops shouldn't deal a significant amount of damage).

TvZ needs someone or something to turn the match-up on its head or you will end up with T proxy pushes or Z slowly winning the game by making no mistakes.
Destructicon
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
4713 Posts
June 19 2012 12:13 GMT
#4671
On June 19 2012 20:50 YosHGo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 19 2012 20:42 Coffee Zombie wrote:
Yeah DRG pretty much said that the Terran's play just doesn't matter anymore. All that matters is whether DRG himself made a blunder or not. If he didn't, lights out for T.


Yeah and stephano said he cant die to protoss and well who got 2-0'd by protoss in dreamhack ? STEPHANO :D Dont forget that even pro players have their ego :D And plus would you link to DRGs interview where he said this... As far as i know TvZ is in very good shape... Plus seeker missile versus BLs ? Ravens own house


Except DRG usually backs up his claims with wins. This year he won a GSL, an MLG Arena and an MLG Championship.

Oh and about Raven's, check out MKP vs Symbol game 1 RO32 of this season's GSL, and you'll see not only how bad Ravens really are, but also how stupid they are when the tech switch to Ultralisks happens.
WriterNever give up, never surrender! https://www.youtube.com/user/DestructiconSC
-Archangel-
Profile Joined May 2010
Croatia7457 Posts
June 19 2012 12:26 GMT
#4672
On June 19 2012 20:42 Coffee Zombie wrote:
Yeah DRG pretty much said that the Terran's play just doesn't matter anymore. All that matters is whether DRG himself made a blunder or not. If he didn't, lights out for T.

That means shit about overall balance. Just because best player in the world thinks he always wins against Terrans unless he makes a mistakes means nothing. It would same as whining Terran is imba in BW because Flash always won if he played well.
CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr
Profile Joined June 2012
544 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-19 12:33:52
June 19 2012 12:31 GMT
#4673
On June 19 2012 21:26 -Archangel- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 19 2012 20:42 Coffee Zombie wrote:
Yeah DRG pretty much said that the Terran's play just doesn't matter anymore. All that matters is whether DRG himself made a blunder or not. If he didn't, lights out for T.

That means shit about overall balance. Just because best player in the world thinks he always wins against Terrans unless he makes a mistakes means nothing. It would same as whining Terran is imba in BW because Flash always won if he played well.


DRG has never been the best player in the world. he himself believes terran i sgarbage and fluffs it in interviews while still sending his point across to smart enough people, or just anybody who doesnt want to cover their eyes

and lol MMA was the best tvz player after Mvp did get all his build nerfed to oblivion, and he cant beat foreigner nowadays. Sen in particular who is weaker than Boxer in tvz. for god sake
awaiting the return of the space cowboy
Xingke
Profile Joined August 2005
United States78 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-19 12:39:28
June 19 2012 12:35 GMT
#4674
On June 19 2012 21:26 -Archangel- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 19 2012 20:42 Coffee Zombie wrote:
Yeah DRG pretty much said that the Terran's play just doesn't matter anymore. All that matters is whether DRG himself made a blunder or not. If he didn't, lights out for T.

That means shit about overall balance. Just because best player in the world thinks he always wins against Terrans unless he makes a mistakes means nothing. It would same as whining Terran is imba in BW because Flash always won if he played well.



The winrate thread also shows international TvZ riding Blizzards own borderline "imbalanced" winrate %, even with the buff only being introduced mid season.



I thought the buff was crazy at first, then figured it might not be that bad. Ends up it was pretty stupid. It shuts down way too many openings. Since Terran pretty much is forced to do some type of damage early on to get a lead in the late game it was a horrible idea to pretty much negate every option they had outside of all ins.
Coffeeling
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Finland250 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-19 12:42:27
June 19 2012 12:42 GMT
#4675
Whenever a balance change seems to be done unnecessarily, chances are things will break badly, as was the case now. Another hint of things to come was that Queens are pretty much equivalent to Roaches stats-wise and we all know what happened when Roaches got one extra point of range.

Then again, these kinds of things are expected. Blizzard's balancing team seems to live in some alternate dimension from where they swing their sledgehammer.
Squee
-Archangel-
Profile Joined May 2010
Croatia7457 Posts
June 19 2012 13:25 GMT
#4676
On June 19 2012 21:31 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 19 2012 21:26 -Archangel- wrote:
On June 19 2012 20:42 Coffee Zombie wrote:
Yeah DRG pretty much said that the Terran's play just doesn't matter anymore. All that matters is whether DRG himself made a blunder or not. If he didn't, lights out for T.

That means shit about overall balance. Just because best player in the world thinks he always wins against Terrans unless he makes a mistakes means nothing. It would same as whining Terran is imba in BW because Flash always won if he played well.


DRG has never been the best player in the world. he himself believes terran i sgarbage and fluffs it in interviews while still sending his point across to smart enough people, or just anybody who doesnt want to cover their eyes

and lol MMA was the best tvz player after Mvp did get all his build nerfed to oblivion, and he cant beat foreigner nowadays. Sen in particular who is weaker than Boxer in tvz. for god sake

Lol. You keep telling yourself that if it will make you feel better.
Bagi
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6799 Posts
June 19 2012 13:42 GMT
#4677
On June 19 2012 21:07 SC_Ghost wrote:
Watch MarineKingPrime vs TSLSymbol for the entirety of the TvZ match-up. TvZ in its current form is far from "in good shape". After mid-game it's a long and inevitable struggle to cover ground for Terran. The current metagame is leading to Terrans playing more of an early, heavily aggressive style; rarely going further than 3 bases. If the game goes longer, Terran will find it harder to secure further bases, leading to a turtle-centric late-game style with drops being your strongest form of aggression (if Zerg vision is as efficient as it should be, drops shouldn't deal a significant amount of damage).

TvZ needs someone or something to turn the match-up on its head or you will end up with T proxy pushes or Z slowly winning the game by making no mistakes.

I think you just described TvP too...

To me this says the biggest flaws are with how terran functions as a race. I don't see a fix until HOTS, where they are aiming to give terran a stronger macro-based mech style.
Mehukannu
Profile Joined October 2010
Finland421 Posts
June 19 2012 13:56 GMT
#4678
I have started to feel that Blizzard gives terran new units just because the could have something more to nerf. Funny feeling that, I wouldn't be shocked if that happened.
C=('. ' Q)
-Archangel-
Profile Joined May 2010
Croatia7457 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-19 13:58:28
June 19 2012 13:57 GMT
#4679
BTW, to people whining about TvZ: The problem will be fixed once terrans start using Ghosts again to emp/snipe infestors/queens. Broodlord/infestor/queen/corrupter army does not work if infestors/queens have no energy.

With ghost snipe nerf T stopped using them for EMP as well which was stupid
Twistacles
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada1327 Posts
June 19 2012 14:06 GMT
#4680
On June 19 2012 22:57 -Archangel- wrote:
BTW, to people whining about TvZ: The problem will be fixed once terrans start using Ghosts again to emp/snipe infestors/queens. Broodlord/infestor/queen/corrupter army does not work if infestors/queens have no energy.

With ghost snipe nerf T stopped using them for EMP as well which was stupid


No it won't. The problem is the Z economy is out of control because T can't keep it in check anymore.
"If you don't give a shit which gum you buy, get stride" - Tyler
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