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On June 19 2012 22:56 Mehukannu wrote:
I have started to feel that Blizzard gives terran new units just because the could have something more to nerf. Funny feeling that, I wouldn't be shocked if that happened.
A post like this is the reason why I don't bother discussing balance here. Too many people will just aimlessly whine without saying anything constructive. Obviously a new terran unit would likely get nerfed. So will the new units of protoss and zerg. That's how Blizzard has said they do balancing, to make things really good so they get used, then scale them down. If you want to use the inevitable nerf of something to aid in your pity party be my guest.
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On June 19 2012 22:57 -Archangel- wrote:
BTW, to people whining about TvZ: The problem will be fixed once terrans start using Ghosts again to emp/snipe infestors/queens. Broodlord/infestor/queen/corrupter army does not work if infestors/queens have no energy.
With ghost snipe nerf T stopped using them for EMP as well which was stupid
But you realize the problem is that early game you can't harass, which means zerg gets sick economy, which means you get overrun. Nothing to do with latelategame.
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On June 19 2012 22:57 -Archangel- wrote:
BTW, to people whining about TvZ: The problem will be fixed once terrans start using Ghosts again to emp/snipe infestors/queens. Broodlord/infestor/queen/corrupter army does not work if infestors/queens have no energy.
With ghost snipe nerf T stopped using them for EMP as well which was stupid
I agree to a certain extend. Obviously a fair and square broodlord + infestor/queen vs viking + ghost battle can only happen, when both parties are on relatively open field, with the ability to draw back and push forward.
However in the current metagame, that almost never happens because the terran is always positioned near his base and turtles. So another obstacle to overcome for terrans would be how to establish a fortified position in the middle of the map, without leaving his bases vulnerable for harass.
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On June 19 2012 22:57 -Archangel- wrote:
BTW, to people whining about TvZ: The problem will be fixed once terrans start using Ghosts again to emp/snipe infestors/queens. Broodlord/infestor/queen/corrupter army does not work if infestors/queens have no energy.
With ghost snipe nerf T stopped using them for EMP as well which was stupid
BTW if you are courious to find out why terrans stoped using ghosts, please read the comments about this aspect of tvz some pages back.
There are serious reasons why ghost are no longer part of the terran army in this MU. But if you want to stay uninformed, or if you are satisfied with your opion of "terran stoped ghost because they are stupid", than just don't read it.
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On June 19 2012 23:07 TechNoTrance wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 22:56 Mehukannu wrote:
I have started to feel that Blizzard gives terran new units just because the could have something more to nerf. Funny feeling that, I wouldn't be shocked if that happened. A post like this is the reason why I don't bother discussing balance here. Too many people will just aimlessly whine without saying anything constructive. Obviously a new terran unit would likely get nerfed. So will the new units of protoss and zerg. That's how Blizzard has said they do balancing, to make things really good so they get used, then scale them down. If you want to use the inevitable nerf of something to aid in your pity party be my guest.
You are not really adding anything constructive to the whole discussion either, really. You are just whining about people aimlessly whining.
Blizzards nerfs are mostly just knee-jerk reactions to things that are too new which people start to whine about too quickly or they do some mind-boggling balance choices like having some weird decisions to which unit they should buff, carrier or mothership... we all know how that went... T_T
I can't see how anyone can still think that Blizzards knows how to make the game balanced, when they obviously do not.
Also seeing what trend blizzard has with the nerfhammer pretty much shows what race they tend to nerf due to Korean terrans inventing abusive builds a lot faster than other races can.
All you really need to look is all the patches and count how many times terran has been nerfed and other races buffed due to them not being able to use those buffs properly when they came out. Just look at TvP, protoss has been buffed a lot while terran has received a lot of nerfs and still manages to have better winrates in tournaments overall. Granted that it is still a very shitty and stale match-up nonetheless.
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On June 19 2012 23:08 Stormiii wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 22:57 -Archangel- wrote:
BTW, to people whining about TvZ: The problem will be fixed once terrans start using Ghosts again to emp/snipe infestors/queens. Broodlord/infestor/queen/corrupter army does not work if infestors/queens have no energy.
With ghost snipe nerf T stopped using them for EMP as well which was stupid But you realize the problem is that early game you can't harass, which means zerg gets sick economy, which means you get overrun. Nothing to do with latelategame.
I seen plenty of games where terran handles the game nicely until Zergs get the deathball (similar to vs Toss). And then they try to handle deathball with vikings alone. It is like Terrans forgot what they learned in the past. Infestor+broodlord was a problem in the past and Terrans whined. Then some started using Ghosts to emp infestors. And it was balanced. Then people figured out mass ghosts with snipe can directly destroy broodlords. Then zergs tried to use Ultralisks, but Ultralisks which are already pretty weak against tanks and marauders also died fast to mass snipe. So Blizzard nerfs snipe and terrans stop using Ghosts. Zergs revert back to Broodlord+infestor. Now I am still waiting for Terrans to start using few ghosts for emp again.
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On June 19 2012 23:08 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 22:57 -Archangel- wrote:
BTW, to people whining about TvZ: The problem will be fixed once terrans start using Ghosts again to emp/snipe infestors/queens. Broodlord/infestor/queen/corrupter army does not work if infestors/queens have no energy.
With ghost snipe nerf T stopped using them for EMP as well which was stupid I agree to a certain extend. Obviously a fair and square broodlord + infestor/queen vs viking + ghost battle can only happen, when both parties are on relatively open field, with the ability to draw back and push forward. However in the current metagame, that almost never happens because the terran is always positioned near his base and turtles. So another obstacle to overcome for terrans would be how to establish a fortified position in the middle of the map, without leaving his bases vulnerable for harass.
When Zerg goes deathball number of units able to harass is really low and should not be a problem for Terrans.
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On June 19 2012 22:57 -Archangel- wrote:
BTW, to people whining about TvZ: The problem will be fixed once terrans start using Ghosts again to emp/snipe infestors/queens. Broodlord/infestor/queen/corrupter army does not work if infestors/queens have no energy.
With ghost snipe nerf T stopped using them for EMP as well which was stupid
Even if you do can do that ( economical wars issue and stuff )
Don't forget that Infestors and Queens are huge as hell, and the EMP size nerf make it hard to even emp more than 2 zergs caster at once.
Player have tried to emp everything and go, but it's really hard to get everything, and if the Zerg still have 2 or 3 fungals when you rush in, you're dead.
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Has blizzard ever made a statement about how they assess the their balance changes after they are implemented?
I just find it very strange that they implemented the queen range buff at exactly the same time as the overlord speed buff since it makes it very difficult to analyze the effects of each in isolation with any statistical method.
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On June 19 2012 22:57 -Archangel- wrote:
i]Now I am still waiting for Terrans to start using few ghosts for emp again.
You are targeting the exact problem. A few ghosts will not cut it against 10 - 15 infestors lategame. The investment in tech, upgrades, time (energy) and micro don't break even, if you only manage to EMP a few of the infestors. Every good zerg player will protect his valuable infestors by detection and Broodlords. So it's very unlikely to kill or EMP all/most of the infestors, or even get a somewhat favourable trade.
And please keep in mind, post-patch ghosts are weak against every other zerg unit. By going ghost tech route, you may very well risk to fall short in vital macro aspects like viking count etc.
So in short: You are right that EMP is a hardcounter to infestor, but post patch the investment in ghost is not worth it, for the reasons I tried to list. More competent people could have explained this topic better, but i hope you get the idea.
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On June 19 2012 22:57 -Archangel- wrote:
BTW, to people whining about TvZ: The problem will be fixed once terrans start using Ghosts again to emp/snipe infestors/queens. Broodlord/infestor/queen/corrupter army does not work if infestors/queens have no energy.
With ghost snipe nerf T stopped using them for EMP as well which was stupid
Wow, thanks for figuring this out for us.
I'll tweet this to MKP, things should be smooth sailing for us terrans from now on.
Hint: Don't call people having issues "whiners" and don't pretend like you know the answers when nobody in actual games can rely on ghosts.
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On June 19 2012 23:35 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 23:08 Stormiii wrote:On June 19 2012 22:57 -Archangel- wrote:
BTW, to people whining about TvZ: The problem will be fixed once terrans start using Ghosts again to emp/snipe infestors/queens. Broodlord/infestor/queen/corrupter army does not work if infestors/queens have no energy.
With ghost snipe nerf T stopped using them for EMP as well which was stupid But you realize the problem is that early game you can't harass, which means zerg gets sick economy, which means you get overrun. Nothing to do with latelategame. I seen plenty of games where terran handles the game nicely until Zergs get the deathball (similar to vs Toss). And then they try to handle deathball with vikings alone. It is like Terrans forgot what they learned in the past. Infestor+broodlord was a problem in the past and Terrans whined. Then some started using Ghosts to emp infestors. And it was balanced. Then people figured out mass ghosts with snipe can directly destroy broodlords. Then zergs tried to use Ultralisks, but Ultralisks which are already pretty weak against tanks and marauders also died fast to mass snipe. So Blizzard nerfs snipe and terrans stop using Ghosts. Zergs revert back to Broodlord+infestor. Now I am still waiting for Terrans to start using few ghosts for emp again.
Ghosts cannot handle Infestors with supporting units. There's no fucking way to ever reach the Infestors hiding behind decection and sieging Broodlords unless the Zerg is flatout bad. Not to mention how silly small the radius of EMP is so you don't hit more then 2 of the fat units . Ghosts need to be better against Broodlords i mean agree they shouldn't be as good as they've been against Ultras but Broodlord/Infestor in a good ball is not beatable in a straight up fight without losing so much that you not will just lose to reeinforcement Lings. Either the ghosts need to be better against or the Raven needs some serious buffing .
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On June 19 2012 23:58 Tryagain4free wrote:
On June 19 2012 22:57 -Archangel- wrote:
i]Now I am still waiting for Terrans to start using few ghosts for emp again.
You are targeting the exact problem. A few ghosts will not cut it against 10 - 15 infestors lategame. The investment in tech, upgrades, time (energy) and micro don't break even, if you only manage to EMP a few of the infestors. Every good zerg player will protect his valuable infestors by detection and Broodlords. So it's very unlikely to kill or EMP all/most of the infestors, or even get a somewhat favourable trade.
And please keep in mind, post-patch ghosts are weak against every other zerg unit. By going ghost tech route, you may very well risk to fall short in vital macro aspects like viking count etc.
So in short: You are right that EMP is a hardcounter to infestor, but post patch the investment in ghost is not worth it, for the reasons I tried to list. More competent people could have explained this topic better, but i hope you get the idea.
10-15 infestors is a huge gas investment and will not happen until super super late game (in addition to broodlords/corruptors).
Terrans just need to figure out a good ratio of ghosts vs infestors. I am sure soon someone will figure it out and they you will all go Ahhh. Probably IMMvP 
And to whoever said zergs always have detection, it is not true. At least not in form of Overseers, fungals are a much more dangerous detection against cloaked ghosts.
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On June 20 2012 01:02 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 23:58 Tryagain4free wrote:
On June 19 2012 22:57 -Archangel- wrote:
i]Now I am still waiting for Terrans to start using few ghosts for emp again.
You are targeting the exact problem. A few ghosts will not cut it against 10 - 15 infestors lategame. The investment in tech, upgrades, time (energy) and micro don't break even, if you only manage to EMP a few of the infestors. Every good zerg player will protect his valuable infestors by detection and Broodlords. So it's very unlikely to kill or EMP all/most of the infestors, or even get a somewhat favourable trade.
And please keep in mind, post-patch ghosts are weak against every other zerg unit. By going ghost tech route, you may very well risk to fall short in vital macro aspects like viking count etc.
So in short: You are right that EMP is a hardcounter to infestor, but post patch the investment in ghost is not worth it, for the reasons I tried to list. More competent people could have explained this topic better, but i hope you get the idea.
10-15 infestors is a huge gas investment and will not happen until super super late game (in addition to broodlords/corruptors). Terrans just need to figure out a good ratio of ghosts vs infestors. I am sure soon someone will figure it out and they you will all go Ahhh. Probably IMMvP And to whoever said zergs always have detection, it is not true. At least not in form of Overseers, fungals are a much more dangerous detection against cloaked ghosts.
And how do you reach Infestors with your Ghosts without them dieing ? Once they're in Broodlord sight they're dead .
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OK, then, Infestors are overpowered, so we should increase the cost to 100m 225 gas and 3 supply. Probably the same would be necessary for High Templar...
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On June 20 2012 01:02 -Archangel- wrote:Terrans just need to figure out a good ratio of ghosts vs infestors. I am sure soon someone will figure it out and they you will all go Ahhh. Probably IMMvP
No amount of figuring out ratios will make ghosts viable when the basic elements of the fight are stacked against them. With the way infestors can hide behind broodlords and how viable they are when massed, its impossible for a zerg to lose a straight up fight if they do the right things.
Amusing to read this "figuring out" stuff over and over again when terran hasn't been able to reliably use ghosts since the nerf. We have an obviously lopsided situation in the game yet people refuse to admit it needs fixing, while zergs get a random +2 range buff on their queens out of nowhere.
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Protoss needs to lose Forcefields, its far too delicate to make for good design.
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On June 20 2012 01:02 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 23:58 Tryagain4free wrote:
On June 19 2012 22:57 -Archangel- wrote:
i]Now I am still waiting for Terrans to start using few ghosts for emp again.
You are targeting the exact problem. A few ghosts will not cut it against 10 - 15 infestors lategame. The investment in tech, upgrades, time (energy) and micro don't break even, if you only manage to EMP a few of the infestors. Every good zerg player will protect his valuable infestors by detection and Broodlords. So it's very unlikely to kill or EMP all/most of the infestors, or even get a somewhat favourable trade.
And please keep in mind, post-patch ghosts are weak against every other zerg unit. By going ghost tech route, you may very well risk to fall short in vital macro aspects like viking count etc.
So in short: You are right that EMP is a hardcounter to infestor, but post patch the investment in ghost is not worth it, for the reasons I tried to list. More competent people could have explained this topic better, but i hope you get the idea.
10-15 infestors is a huge gas investment and will not happen until super super late game (in addition to broodlords/corruptors). .
You mean the super super super late game that appears to come in under 20 minutes now adays :/ I'd like to see your fantasy world where Terran can find "a good ratio" of ghosts to other units to deal with 200/200 zerg with 10-15 infestors in under 20 minutes. Oh wait...
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Lol. 20 min game is super super late. And I really don't know any good Zerg users that consistently build 15 infestors before making the broodlord army. It is always the other way around.
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On June 20 2012 02:01 Sroobz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 01:02 -Archangel- wrote:On June 19 2012 23:58 Tryagain4free wrote:
On June 19 2012 22:57 -Archangel- wrote:
i]Now I am still waiting for Terrans to start using few ghosts for emp again.
You are targeting the exact problem. A few ghosts will not cut it against 10 - 15 infestors lategame. The investment in tech, upgrades, time (energy) and micro don't break even, if you only manage to EMP a few of the infestors. Every good zerg player will protect his valuable infestors by detection and Broodlords. So it's very unlikely to kill or EMP all/most of the infestors, or even get a somewhat favourable trade.
And please keep in mind, post-patch ghosts are weak against every other zerg unit. By going ghost tech route, you may very well risk to fall short in vital macro aspects like viking count etc.
So in short: You are right that EMP is a hardcounter to infestor, but post patch the investment in ghost is not worth it, for the reasons I tried to list. More competent people could have explained this topic better, but i hope you get the idea.
10-15 infestors is a huge gas investment and will not happen until super super late game (in addition to broodlords/corruptors). . You mean the super super super late game that appears to come in under 20 minutes now adays :/ I'd like to see your fantasy world where Terran can find "a good ratio" of ghosts to other units to deal with 200/200 zerg with 10-15 infestors in under 20 minutes. Oh wait...
Zergs have Hive finish like 13 minutes into the game nowadays, so I guess that's where lategame begins. Also, having 10+ Infestors in the midgame seems pretty standard against both T and P.
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EPT
