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On June 18 2012 16:35 bittman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 16:14 SnipedSoul wrote:On June 18 2012 15:54 Black[CAT] wrote:
I think Raven should have its speed increased. Its speed should be increased or the range on its spells should be increased. A slow caster with short range spells pretty much has to suicide to cast its spells. A slow caster with long range spells is actually useful like the HT. Imagine how bad HT would be if storm and feedback had range 6. It could be easily sniped by most ranged units and would be screwed if hit by fungal. The raven is easily sniped by most ranged units, can't retaliate if hit by fungal aside from spamming a few autoturrets or a PDD before it dies which just makes the enemy back up a bit before engaging, and has the added drawback of tending to clump up a lot if you don't take care to split every time you move your army. I feel like the Raven, as a unit, is designed to control space as opposed to being a flying casting unit of doom. Auto-turrets - immobile structure that can be planted at a location for some continued damage. Support / Harass. PDD - immobile structure that can be planted at a location for some continued defence. Support. Seeker Missile - high damage AOE spell that can be outrun by some units. Damage. The response to a Seeker Missile even occurring can be the same as a response to a nuke: run away. But one is far easier to land because you just aim at the ground from a long range over aiming at a unit at such a short range that almost every AntiAir unit can shoot you from. Anyway, my point in listing the abilities is that I feel like the Raven is a confused unit. It doesn't know if it wants to control space, kill units, harass or support. I would honestly prefer the Raven to be an awesome support unit because the first two abilities are more along those lines whereas battlecruisers should be the flying doom of the terran army. That and it honestly feels like terran don't do support. Protoss have sentries + mothership + warp prism (dropship) [+ oracle] for support. Zerg have Queens + overlords (dropship) [+ viper]. Terran support appears to be basically medivac (dropship) + raven. I don't know what a good raven support ability would be, but I'm sure there's a tonne of potential ideas out there. So in short: - I'd like the raven to be a better support, not the powerful endgame caster. - Make another unit in lategame terran more powerful instead. - Keep ghosts as the powerful terran caster. And by "keep" I mean "make ghosts the powerful terran caster" again. I'd like to see the EMP nerf reverted. Snipe nerf can stay, or be slightly modified so long as it remains to not be the counter-to-all-zerg-t3. Regardless I think any terran buff patch would need to package some changes, not just buff one number somewhere. I prefer buffs to nerfs tbh.
Personally, I don't think it's a confused unit at all. The Raven, much like the Ghost before it's nerf, is just an adaptable unit in most situations. The difference between the two is that the Ghost's abilities are so much more easier to use. Snipe is 25 energy and EMP is 75 energy. Nukes can be made from multiple silos and they benefit from bio upgrades. Outside of the nuke, the Ghost's abilities were pretty easy to apply.
The Raven on the other hand has some pretty difficult abilities. PDD only works against projectiles (So vs Zerg it only affects Queens, Hydras, and Corrupters), you need a lot of Auto-Turrets for them to be worthwhile, as well as their Building Armor upgrade, and HSM costs 125 energy, which is one Raven per missile. Overall you need a lot of opportune moments for the Raven to shine. This is very much unlike the Infestor, which is the most similar to the Raven. Fungal controls space (and kills shit), Infested Terrans are walking turrets (which also benefit from missile upgrades), and Neural Parasite has to be used at opportune moments.
So why is the Infestor such a strong staple unit for Zerg? Well outside of Fungal just being a retardedly awesome ability, it's the energy costs. Fungal is 75 energy and Infested Terrans are 25 energy. This is why I believe just lowering the costs on Auto Turret and HSM would be of great benefit to Terrans.
I would like for Ghosts to return to their former state, and for Battlecrusiers to actually do something in TvZ, but Blizzard disagrees.
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I'm still confused why Blizzard never adressed the Raven. Do they actually think its a good unit right now and are confused why almost nobody uses it EVER? The stupidly high Energy costs and extremely low range just make the Raven extremely ineffecient i don't know why this never got changed.
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Because they wanna sell HOTS so everyone hast to switch to guarantee $$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wouldn´t it be awesome,if you can buy new units through the RMAH in HOTS?
If you want balance,buy it!
jokes aside(it will not be a joke in the future:p),i fear the Raven will get removed from the game,or get stationary like mothership.
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Btw my idea for changing the Ghost would not be reverting Snipe but rather changing EMP to make it a dispell. You cast it over creep and its gone at that radius , cast it over Infested Terrans and they instantly die or cancel fungal/storm if you're fast.
It would make EMP a big skill ability that can cancel out the opponent if you have the reaction time.
Alternatively you could give an ability like that to the Raven instead of lets say Auto Turrets that lets be honest are rather useless .
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On June 18 2012 22:07 Riskr wrote:
Because they wanna sell HOTS so everyone hast to switch to guarantee $$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wouldn´t it be awesome,if you can buy new units through the RMAH in HOTS?
If you want balance,buy it!
jokes aside(it will not be a joke in the future:p),i fear the Raven will get removed from the game,or get stationary like mothership.
The mothership isn't going to be stationary. On topic - I feel like, with terrans often having an excess of gas in the late game, they should experiment more often with the raven. For instance, Thorzain versus Sheth on Metropolis during the RBL had some good raven usage.
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On June 18 2012 23:06 Zealos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 22:07 Riskr wrote:
Because they wanna sell HOTS so everyone hast to switch to guarantee $$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wouldn´t it be awesome,if you can buy new units through the RMAH in HOTS?
If you want balance,buy it!
jokes aside(it will not be a joke in the future:p),i fear the Raven will get removed from the game,or get stationary like mothership.
The mothership isn't going to be stationary. On topic - I feel like, with terrans often having an excess of gas in the late game, they should experiment more often with the raven. For instance, Thorzain versus Sheth on Metropolis during the RBL had some good raven usage.
The only way to ever switch into Raven is IF you manage a split map even in TvT . And stuff like this only works on Maps with limited attack paths for 4-6 bases like Metropolis , Shakuras etc. Raven need years to get enough Energy to be effective if you switch into them and the opponent attacks you before they basically are 200 Energy you have a ton of useless supply. You can't tie up a ton of supply ( and you need ALOT of Ravens for them to work ) into Raven that don't do anything for a long if you have to constantly defend/fight something
You need to build a defensive line and hope the opponents doesn't play aggresive while you transition. Unlike Infestors or even HT's Ravens are useless when they spawn even with the reactor upgrade.
Not to mention if the Zerg has spot on Fungal Ravens will never work with 6 range against 9 range fungal growth.
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4713 Posts
On June 18 2012 23:06 Zealos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 22:07 Riskr wrote:
Because they wanna sell HOTS so everyone hast to switch to guarantee $$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wouldn´t it be awesome,if you can buy new units through the RMAH in HOTS?
If you want balance,buy it!
jokes aside(it will not be a joke in the future:p),i fear the Raven will get removed from the game,or get stationary like mothership.
The mothership isn't going to be stationary. On topic - I feel like, with terrans often having an excess of gas in the late game, they should experiment more often with the raven. For instance, Thorzain versus Sheth on Metropolis during the RBL had some good raven usage.
Terrans only bank gas if they fail their macro, I don't know where or how this myth appeared but its more persistent then a damn Virus. And for the millionth time, people have experimented with Ravens, people keep experimenting with them and they fucking suck except for a 1 in a million game that happens once in a blue moon when the sun, all the planets, the moon and the galaxy align.
Ravens need a huge number of upgrades to be good, all of which are super expensive, the raven needs a load of time to bank up enough energy to become useful, and raven's are still retardedly easy to shut down with fungal growths. You won't have the time and resources to do that in any normal game, it will only happen on maps like MetroPolis, that are huge and allow for a split map situation, but even then its still very, very rare, and it is even rarer for it to work.
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On June 18 2012 23:15 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 23:06 Zealos wrote:On June 18 2012 22:07 Riskr wrote:
Because they wanna sell HOTS so everyone hast to switch to guarantee $$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wouldn´t it be awesome,if you can buy new units through the RMAH in HOTS?
If you want balance,buy it!
jokes aside(it will not be a joke in the future:p),i fear the Raven will get removed from the game,or get stationary like mothership.
The mothership isn't going to be stationary. On topic - I feel like, with terrans often having an excess of gas in the late game, they should experiment more often with the raven. For instance, Thorzain versus Sheth on Metropolis during the RBL had some good raven usage. Terrans only bank gas if they fail their macro, I don't know where or how this myth appeared but its more persistent then a damn Virus. And for the millionth time, people have experimented with Ravens, people keep experimenting with them and they fucking suck except for a 1 in a million game that happens once in a blue moon when the sun, all the planets, the moon and the galaxy align. Ravens need a huge number of upgrades to be good, all of which are super expensive, the raven needs a load of time to bank up enough energy to become useful, and raven's are still retardedly easy to shut down with fungal growths. You won't have the time and resources to do that in any normal game, it will only happen on maps like MetroPolis, that are huge and allow for a split map situation, but even then its still very, very rare, and it is even rarer for it to work.
The thing is, gas is a resource that is available at each base, and Terran is the only race that cannot use it effectively. That's why Terran naturally banks gas: when you mine out all your bases and cannot safely secure another mineral source, all that is left for you is gas (remember that minerals mine out faster than gas, so you always have more live gas sources than mineral sources). Whereas in the same situation (low mineral income), Protoss and Zerg can dump all the gas they get from those remaining gas geysers. It even reinforces the belief that Terran is on a timer and must win at all cost, before all that's left on the map is gas that your opponent is dumping in templars and infestors.
Nobody is talking about silver leaguers who bank gas on 3 bases, that's not the point. That's the very late game natural gas banking, when minerals begin to be depleted (and Terrans deplete them even faster with MULEs) but geysers are still there, that is unhandable by Terrans. Terrans don't have the potential to spend all the gas available to them, while Protoss and Zerg have that potential. That's definitely a difference in design, whether intended or not.
Please think a bit before you start mindlessly spouting the usual "macro more scrub" that every gold leaguer is capable of figuring out by himself.
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The late game comes waaaaaay too fast and it's making sc2 boring.
I WANT them to increase the build time for 3/3 toss/terran upgrades and increase the build time by hive. The midgame should go on for another 3-4 minutes.
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As a zerg player I feel that terran needs a buff. I think the early game is fine as it is after the new patch, but terran is a bit weak in the late game.
A slight radius buff to emp to deal with infestors (which are the key units for both broodlord and ultralisk armies); perhaps not back to the old radius, but somewhere in between. Would obviously be a buff for terran lategame vs protoss as well.
Another option could be to increase the casting range of hunter seeker missile. It's a very useful skill toi have, but the ravens have to get too close to the zerg army and your ravens will all die to fungals. With a range buff perhaps you could get some HSM away against a protoss army before your ravens get fedbucked by templars.
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On June 18 2012 23:49 Sroobz wrote:
The late game comes waaaaaay too fast and it's making sc2 boring.
I WANT them to increase the build time for 3/3 toss/terran upgrades and increase the build time by hive. The midgame should go on for another 3-4 minutes.
There just has to be a danger of dying if you run into super fast lategame. Yeah Protoss upgrades are a problem, they are way too cheap. But what's going on with zergs atm, going into 10-12min hive, blizz can't be seriously say, that this is, how it was planned originally.
Zerg must have to actually build units during the early and midgame to survive. The only non mirror we see actually a very healthy midgame seems to be TvP, lol!
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This 12 minute hive and insanely quick 3/3 upgrade style is making sc2 extremely boring to watch
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On June 18 2012 23:59 Sroobz wrote:
This 12 minute hive and insanely quick 3/3 upgrade style is making sc2 extremely boring to watch
It would be fine if everyone had an even fighting chance when reached on both sides. But since its not its become 1 players rushes to it while the other tries to prevent it or lose.
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On June 19 2012 00:03 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 23:59 Sroobz wrote:
This 12 minute hive and insanely quick 3/3 upgrade style is making sc2 extremely boring to watch It would be fine if everyone had an even fighting chance when reached on both sides. But since its not its become 1 players rushes to it while the other tries to prevent it or lose.
It really wouldn't be. 12 minutes is way too fast for ANY late game. There is literally no midgame right now in TvZ and ZvP. There should be a time where 2/2 upgrades and lair tech units should be out. A good 5-6 minutes. 2/2 battles v lair tech are the most exciting. Late game is so campy and not entertaining to watch.
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On June 18 2012 13:28 Holytornados wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 12:47 sGs.Stregon wrote:
Supply before Barracks
Barracks build time increased
Reaper nerfed
Battlecruiser nerfed
Thor nerfed
Ghost nerfed ((emp and snipe))
Siege Tank nerfed
Blue Flame nerfed
Viking nerfed
Bunker build time increased
**note I might have missed something, but im not sure**
((on top of the other two races recieving buffs in some aspect to help counter said nerfed units^))
But hey, at Least Terran has Marines+stim right? apperantly Marine+stim is equal to or greater than the most rounded out list of units to choose to build from. I dont see what all the hub-bub is about. Zerg is strong in all aspects of the game, Protoss is strong late game, Terran has Marines+stim, that they have to do damage with early game ((in the form of an all-in)) to stand a chance later in the game ((by winning with their initial all-in)). Sounds like some legit balancing too me. This is the list I give to my friends whenever we discuss balance. I just don't like playing the game anymore as Terran, and that's the only race I am decent at. I have a streamlined style I have to play in vZ and vP, and if I get late game, I lose basically no matter what. I honestly think if thors and BCs had no energy things would be more balanced vP. It would allow late game units to be used late game. For vZ, I think reverting the Queen buff would make the matchup balanced. That or something on the infestor has to be balanced out. They shouldn't be able to hard counter essentially every unit, AND harass as well as they do.
Yeah you actually missed medivac speed nerf as well.
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On June 18 2012 13:42 adeezy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 13:27 zmansman17 wrote:On June 18 2012 13:23 Sadist wrote:On June 18 2012 13:20 adeezy wrote:
There's a strong correlation to who has been winning tournaments to what the community complains most about in balance. The thing is, I feel like that's the weakest argument when it comes to balance because of just how much raw skill is involved, especially with the top Zergs who are dominating. DRG and Stephano are down right incredible players and their wins have honestly, less to do with balance and more to do with decision making and prowess.
I read about complaints about infestors and the fact remains is that you are supposed to spread brood war style before you engage, or if possible use HT's (for feedback) or ghost snipes to take them out, it makes sense that in order to stop a unit that is all micro that you need to use micro to counter it.
As for terran late game.... It's weird that in the beginning of the starcraft 2 metagame, zerg was considered the reactionary race, but now it's terran. I have a feeling this might continue to change.
I just feel like in general the game is very balanced compared to how it used to be which is good progress, but definitely could be better. Zerg feels like it's strong but to be honest it also just feels like the people who are the best at the game right now are just zerg players so it might skew balance perception. The best players who played the game previously were terran players. There was no imbalance. (see how easy that is?) Nice point you are making there. That is certainly a valid explanation of why the Terran race had so much success in earlier GSLs. MMA, MKP, MVP all can play random at Top 50 GM in Korea. If they can do that, imagine if any one of them dedicated themselves to Zerg or Protoss. I'm guessing the results would be the same. sarcasm is really hard to read on the internet (this isn't even sarcastic, im genuinely confused). Im not even sure if you are agreeing or not. If you really think if the top terrans switching to zerg or protoss would allow them to start winning tournaments again, youre wrong, plus they have been winning http://sc2earnings.com/?year=2012just check out the earnings for this past half year. half of the top ten is terran =/
Why am I wrong? I'm betting that any of the players I mentioned would have equal, if not greater chances, at winning with another race if, say, they dedicated only a few weeks to those other races. They already play the other races at top GM on Korean server, so what makes you think they can't win tournaments with those races?
Zerg is very strong right now. MVP has stated this (Interview with Mr. Chae, GSL). MKP has stated this. MMA has stated this. If you don't think these guys, the real best players in the world, wouldn't be even better players than Stephano or DRG if they put a little time mastering Zerg, I would think that you are mistaken.
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On June 19 2012 02:32 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 13:42 adeezy wrote:On June 18 2012 13:27 zmansman17 wrote:On June 18 2012 13:23 Sadist wrote:On June 18 2012 13:20 adeezy wrote:
There's a strong correlation to who has been winning tournaments to what the community complains most about in balance. The thing is, I feel like that's the weakest argument when it comes to balance because of just how much raw skill is involved, especially with the top Zergs who are dominating. DRG and Stephano are down right incredible players and their wins have honestly, less to do with balance and more to do with decision making and prowess.
I read about complaints about infestors and the fact remains is that you are supposed to spread brood war style before you engage, or if possible use HT's (for feedback) or ghost snipes to take them out, it makes sense that in order to stop a unit that is all micro that you need to use micro to counter it.
As for terran late game.... It's weird that in the beginning of the starcraft 2 metagame, zerg was considered the reactionary race, but now it's terran. I have a feeling this might continue to change.
I just feel like in general the game is very balanced compared to how it used to be which is good progress, but definitely could be better. Zerg feels like it's strong but to be honest it also just feels like the people who are the best at the game right now are just zerg players so it might skew balance perception. The best players who played the game previously were terran players. There was no imbalance. (see how easy that is?) Nice point you are making there. That is certainly a valid explanation of why the Terran race had so much success in earlier GSLs. MMA, MKP, MVP all can play random at Top 50 GM in Korea. If they can do that, imagine if any one of them dedicated themselves to Zerg or Protoss. I'm guessing the results would be the same. sarcasm is really hard to read on the internet (this isn't even sarcastic, im genuinely confused). Im not even sure if you are agreeing or not. If you really think if the top terrans switching to zerg or protoss would allow them to start winning tournaments again, youre wrong, plus they have been winning http://sc2earnings.com/?year=2012just check out the earnings for this past half year. half of the top ten is terran =/ [...] Zerg is very strong right now. MVP has stated this (Interview with Mr. Chae, GSL). MKP has stated this. MMA has stated this. If you don't think these guys, the real best players in the world, wouldn't be even better players than Stephano or DRG if they put a little time mastering Zerg, I would think that you are mistaken.
Lol I'm Terran, a fan of MKP, and I believe that currently Zerg is OP as fuck, but that sounds like the usual "Terran players are just better". DRG is pretty damn good man, I'm sure he could do well with Terran too...
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On June 19 2012 04:34 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 12:47 sGs.Stregon wrote:
Supply before Barracks
Barracks build time increased
Reaper nerfed
Battlecruiser nerfed
Thor nerfed
Ghost nerfed ((emp and snipe))
Siege Tank nerfed
Blue Flame nerfed
Viking nerfed
Bunker build time increased
**note I might have missed something, but im not sure**
((on top of the other two races recieving buffs in some aspect to help counter said nerfed units^))
But hey, at Least Terran has Marines+stim right? apperantly Marine+stim is equal to or greater than the most rounded out list of units to choose to build from. I dont see what all the hub-bub is about. Zerg is strong in all aspects of the game, Protoss is strong late game, Terran has Marines+stim, that they have to do damage with early game ((in the form of an all-in)) to stand a chance later in the game ((by winning with their initial all-in)). Sounds like some legit balancing too me. This list of nerfs is irrelevant. Just because there are more than for Protoss and Zerg doesn't mean they weren't all warranted. That's faulty logic. What matters is the state of the game now, and how the last nerf was too severe.
This is true. Moreover, some of these nerfs (siege tank) happened in beta, which makes them even less relevant. Remember that Roaches were 1 supply and had 2 armor and monstrous regen back then :D
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