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On June 20 2012 03:23 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 02:39 GinDo wrote:On June 20 2012 02:22 dde wrote:
I seriously wonder when blizzard will take a step to solve current situation. I really strongly believe the Queen range was needed. I am also happy that this changed brought to light the fundamental issued with Terran that Blizzard has been ignoring for such a long time. Terran has a crap lategameSome of the issues of the lategame is the lack of a lategame transitions. The and lack of a decent T3 Caster. In BW TvZ lategame Terran either went SK(MM+Sci) or Mech. These were their transitions out of Bio Tank. If Terran did not effectively kill the Zerg before Hive Tech, he was forced into one or the other. Either abuse Irradiate with MM and tons of Science Vessels, or go toe to toe with the Zerg using Mech. Terran has no Transition into lategame tech in any match-up in SC2. There are lategame transitions in TvT.  I don't think the problems in TvZ and TvP are similar, personally. I think that Terran unit compositions trade fairly well with Zerg in the lategame, but the Zerg's superior economy allow them to pull ahead over the course of the game. Everything else aside, TvZ before the Queen buff was just better, more fun to watch and play, so buffing Ghosts again so we can see both Terran and Zerg take 3 bases, tech to their ultimate unit composition, and then clash in the middle of the map, would be a mistake. That's how PvZ is, and it's pretty bad. The lack of lategame transitions is a problem in TvP presumably, and I'm in favor of buffing Thors, BCs and Ravens, just to see if it would change anything. However, Terran in SC2 seems very intentionally designed around Bio, where the Marine is meant to be the basic answer to everything. It's not coincidence that Protoss need their expensive tech just to not lose to Marines and Medivacs. As long as something like that is in the game, I doubt Terrans will be allowed to transition to a playstyle that doesn't involve Marines somehow. It's kind of the reverse Protoss problem, where the relative crappiness of gateway units mandates the power of Colossi and HTs; except for Terran, the power of Marines mandates the shittiness of BCs and Ravens.
The only reason lategame transitions in TvT happen because a well placed siege line with a few Vikings and some other support will grant you an almost unbreakable position in TvT if you're well positioned . Which gives you the time and opportunity to sack lesser units and workers to transition. Siege Lines are not nearly as powerful in TvZ and TvP in the later stages as they are in TvT. Transitions for Terran take alot of time . Time you only really get in TvT.
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I have a good number of ideas about balance for SCII, but currently there's one I'm finding very difficult to find agreeable in terms of plausibility and diversity:
Stim
Stim is the reason why the M/M/M combo works and it's the reason why most all Terrans in nearly every league go Bio. Now what I'm saying isn't for the sake of helping Toss or Zerg necessarily win easier against Terran. I'm expressing my distaste for it because I feel it really makes the Terran race incredibly bland and linear, almost as much as most of the current Protoss builds out there. The real tragedy is that Terran is utterly dependent, or worse if it's acting like it's utterly dependent, on an almost gamebreaking strategy like the M/M/M or M/M/M/S.
I honestly think some point in a future expansion (maybe the Legacy of the Void) that Stim should be changed to promote Terran to find better, more innovative ways (like the race is supposed to) in defeating opponents. That's just two cents though. I simply find it to be bland and exploitable game design when units that are counted as Tier 1 and are also among the most cost effective units in the game are devastating every other Tier as a result of an ability that is easily compensated by other units.
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On June 20 2012 04:30 Jasiwel wrote:
I have a good number of ideas about balance for SCII, but currently there's one I'm finding very difficult to find agreeable in terms of plausibility and diversity:
Stim
Stim is the reason why the M/M/M combo works and it's the reason why most all Terrans in nearly every league go Bio. Now what I'm saying isn't for the sake of helping Toss or Zerg necessarily win easier against Terran. I'm expressing my distaste for it because I feel it really makes the Terran race incredibly bland and linear, almost as much as most of the current Protoss builds out there. The real tragedy is that Terran is utterly dependent, or worse if it's acting like it's utterly dependent, on an almost gamebreaking strategy like the M/M/M or M/M/M/S.
I honestly think some point in a future expansion (maybe the Legacy of the Void) that Stim should be removed to promote Terran to find better, more innovative ways (like the race is supposed to) in defeating opponents. That's just two cents though. I simply find it to be bland and exploitable game design when units that are counted as Tier 1 and are also among the most cost effective units in the game are devastating every other Tier as a result of an ability that is easily compensated by other units.
Taking out an ability does not make the game more varied, it makes the game more bland. For what you describe you need to change the rest of the units to make them viable and not just nerf bio into the ground.
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On June 20 2012 04:35 BreakfastBurrito wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 04:30 Jasiwel wrote:
I have a good number of ideas about balance for SCII, but currently there's one I'm finding very difficult to find agreeable in terms of plausibility and diversity:
Stim
Stim is the reason why the M/M/M combo works and it's the reason why most all Terrans in nearly every league go Bio. Now what I'm saying isn't for the sake of helping Toss or Zerg necessarily win easier against Terran. I'm expressing my distaste for it because I feel it really makes the Terran race incredibly bland and linear, almost as much as most of the current Protoss builds out there. The real tragedy is that Terran is utterly dependent, or worse if it's acting like it's utterly dependent, on an almost gamebreaking strategy like the M/M/M or M/M/M/S.
I honestly think some point in a future expansion (maybe the Legacy of the Void) that Stim should be removed to promote Terran to find better, more innovative ways (like the race is supposed to) in defeating opponents. That's just two cents though. I simply find it to be bland and exploitable game design when units that are counted as Tier 1 and are also among the most cost effective units in the game are devastating every other Tier as a result of an ability that is easily compensated by other units. Taking out an ability does not make the game more varied, it makes the game more bland. For what you describe you need to change the rest of the units to make them viable and not just nerf bio into the ground.
Yes, you are correct that taking out an ability can make the game more bland. However, when an ability like Stim is obliging most strategies to take up a confined set of units, like we're seeing with Terran, then that ability is making the game more bland. I have friends that tell me the exact thing about Bio though, that by removing Stim, Bio would become insignificant or weakened. However, you must keep in mind that Bio is also Tier 1 and should therefore should not be this powerful to begin with. It's one thing for Tier 1 units to be able to ultimately defeat other Tier 1 units, but when Tier 1 units are smashing the upper Tiers like glass, then some design principle has become wayward. I think Stim is causing that waywardness.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the general design principle of a Tier 1 unit is to support the other, higher Tiers and to exist as a primary force in the beginning of the game. When you look at Protoss and Zerg, this is exactly what you see. I'm not saying either one of them is balanced by any means, but that design principle at least sticks with those two races.
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Stim is an extremely good ability, it's the last thing they need to remove this game. If anything, more abilities should work like stim does. It has a very high risk/reward thing going on, since bio health is not free and you really need medivacs to keep using it properly, and the timing of the stim matters so much. Good stim usage can separate good players from the baddies.
Terran mech and air styles can be buffed without removing the option to go bio. Stim is an iconic ability that defines the terran race and I would be willing to bet a ton of money it will never go away.
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On June 20 2012 03:12 zmansman17 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 20 2012 02:39 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 02:22 dde wrote:
I seriously wonder when blizzard will take a step to solve current situation. I really strongly believe the Queen range was needed. I am also happy that this changed brought to light the fundamental issued with Terran that Blizzard has been ignoring for such a long time. Terran has a crap lategameSome of the issues of the lategame is the lack of a lategame transitions. The and lack of a decent T3 Caster. In BW TvZ lategame Terran either went SK(MM+Sci) or Mech. These were their transitions out of Bio Tank. If Terran did not effectively kill the Zerg before Hive Tech, he was forced into one or the other. Either abuse Irradiate with MM and tons of Science Vessels, or go toe to toe with the Zerg using Mech. Terran has no Transition into lategame tech in any match-up in SC2. I agree with Terran not having a viable late game, but the Queen range was too much. The overlord speed buff may have been needed, at least to some extent, but not both buffs.11/11 rax used to be a fun gamble whereupon an extremely well-executed rush could win a game if the Zerg opponent showed poor micro. Now, however, the same extremely well-executed 11/11 rush is negated with poor micro. Reactor hellion, Reaper FE, other 2 rax variants lack the same potency that they once had (which is to put it lightly). I for one used to open Reaper FE in every TvZ. The reapers allowed me to harass the Zerg, to reward my micro against queens (you could actually kill queens even against great players). This allowed you to delay injects, make them waste APM trying to deal with the harass, and tempted them to over-produce lings. Now, Zergs don't need to do ANYTHING against Reaper FE. They simply make 1 queen for each base, and maybe they even add more queens with their build. Even the principle of the threat (when you hid a reaper for later use) does not exist because it can be blindly defended. Good luck against that. The highly entertaining and fun bunker rush builds that we used to see, which in my opinion, epitomized the TvZ match up, no longer exist because they are so easily denied. Queen range permits queens to just target repairing or building SCVs, or even hit marines before they jump in bunkers. Before, defense required great drone pulls and adroit execution from the Zerg. Now, even a haphazard A move will suffice. And note that not only was the timing of Terran's bunkers nerfed (they took longer to build), but the Rax themselves were nerfed (they also took longer to build). So if Zergs were losing to 11/11 rax beforehand, there's really no excuse short of lack of practice against the build.
I like your post, and you do bring alot of good points up. Watching bunker rushes was the best thing in the world. Watching Zerg and Terran duke it out in a micro battle was the best.
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On June 20 2012 03:23 Toadvine wrote:
The lack of lategame transitions is a problem in TvP presumably, and I'm in favor of buffing Thors, BCs and Ravens, just to see if it would change anything. However, Terran in SC2 seems very intentionally designed around Bio, where the Marine is meant to be the basic answer to everything. It's not coincidence that Protoss need their expensive tech just to not lose to Marines and Medivacs. As long as something like that is in the game, I doubt Terrans will be allowed to transition to a playstyle that doesn't involve Marines somehow. It's kind of the reverse Protoss problem, where the relative crappiness of gateway units mandates the power of Colossi and HTs; except for Terran, the power of Marines mandates the shittiness of BCs and Ravens.
Funnily enough I've been thinking and saying this for quite a while now.
I reckon the sole reason Terran tech is in the state it is with constant buffs and nerfs to try and somehow balance it is a direct result of the Marine being so strong. As you yourself said...Terrans complain about Colossi and they complain almost constantly about the Ghost EMP nerfs which effected the HT/Ghost dynamic...but the simple fact is that without this kind of splash damage Protoss just DIES to Marines.
Simply put: instead of doing anything about the Marine they instead tried to balance all of the other Terran units around it. Which has left Terran with no other reasonable options.
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On June 20 2012 04:41 Jasiwel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 04:35 BreakfastBurrito wrote:On June 20 2012 04:30 Jasiwel wrote:
I have a good number of ideas about balance for SCII, but currently there's one I'm finding very difficult to find agreeable in terms of plausibility and diversity:
Stim
Stim is the reason why the M/M/M combo works and it's the reason why most all Terrans in nearly every league go Bio. Now what I'm saying isn't for the sake of helping Toss or Zerg necessarily win easier against Terran. I'm expressing my distaste for it because I feel it really makes the Terran race incredibly bland and linear, almost as much as most of the current Protoss builds out there. The real tragedy is that Terran is utterly dependent, or worse if it's acting like it's utterly dependent, on an almost gamebreaking strategy like the M/M/M or M/M/M/S.
I honestly think some point in a future expansion (maybe the Legacy of the Void) that Stim should be removed to promote Terran to find better, more innovative ways (like the race is supposed to) in defeating opponents. That's just two cents though. I simply find it to be bland and exploitable game design when units that are counted as Tier 1 and are also among the most cost effective units in the game are devastating every other Tier as a result of an ability that is easily compensated by other units. Taking out an ability does not make the game more varied, it makes the game more bland. For what you describe you need to change the rest of the units to make them viable and not just nerf bio into the ground. Yes, you are correct that taking out an ability can make the game more bland. However, when an ability like Stim is obliging most strategies to take up a confined set of units, like we're seeing with Terran, then that ability is making the game more bland. I have friends that tell me the exact thing about Bio though, that by removing Stim, Bio would become insignificant or weakened. However, you must keep in mind that Bio is also Tier 1 and should therefore should not be this powerful to begin with. It's one thing for Tier 1 units to be able to ultimately defeat other Tier 1 units, but when Tier 1 units are smashing the upper Tiers like glass, then some design principle has become wayward. I think Stim is causing that waywardness. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the general design principle of a Tier 1 unit is to support the other, higher Tiers and to exist as a primary force in the beginning of the game. When you look at Protoss and Zerg, this is exactly what you see. I'm not saying either one of them is balanced by any means, but that design principle at least sticks with those two races.
Zerg and Toss also rely heavly on lower tech units. You can't just take out Stim completely it's the only reason Bio units even get build at all. Without Stim they wouldn't even work as support thats how bad Stimless Bio is.
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On June 20 2012 04:30 Jasiwel wrote:
I have a good number of ideas about balance for SCII, but currently there's one I'm finding very difficult to find agreeable in terms of plausibility and diversity:
Stim
Stim is the reason why the M/M/M combo works and it's the reason why most all Terrans in nearly every league go Bio. Now what I'm saying isn't for the sake of helping Toss or Zerg necessarily win easier against Terran. I'm expressing my distaste for it because I feel it really makes the Terran race incredibly bland and linear, almost as much as most of the current Protoss builds out there. The real tragedy is that Terran is utterly dependent, or worse if it's acting like it's utterly dependent, on an almost gamebreaking strategy like the M/M/M or M/M/M/S.
I honestly think some point in a future expansion (maybe the Legacy of the Void) that Stim should be removed to promote Terran to find better, more innovative ways (like the race is supposed to) in defeating opponents. That's just two cents though. I simply find it to be bland and exploitable game design when units that are counted as Tier 1 and are also among the most cost effective units in the game are devastating every other Tier as a result of an ability that is easily compensated by other units.
Remove Stim?
EDIT: I have nothing nice to say.
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On June 20 2012 04:47 Bagi wrote:
Stim is an extremely good ability, it's the last thing they need to remove this game. If anything, more abilities should work like stim does. It has a very high risk/reward thing going on, since bio health is not free and you really need medivacs to keep using it properly, and the timing of the stim matters so much. Good stim usage can separate good players from the baddies.
Does that make it good for game design or gameplay though? Once the M/M/M combo is setup, it's far more cost-effective than almost any other unit composition and more units can easily tack on to strengthen it even further. It can go to M/M/M/G or M/M/M/V very fast while most other tech in Protoss and Zerg take considerably longer, not to mention less effectively. Very recently in Squirtle vs. Bomber Game 3, this becomes clearly evident. That's just one example of pros playing too. I know Stim is iconic, I played through Brood War, which is why I'm questioning it rather than condemning it. If things also gain prominence or power in this game via being iconic, then why was the Carrier vastly nerfed from Brood War and is being removed come HotS? Just because something is iconic doesn't mean it should be exempt from being balanced.
I do think, however, that Terran Tier 3 and higher is pitiful, almost as pitiful as Protoss air.
On June 20 2012 04:54 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 04:41 Jasiwel wrote:On June 20 2012 04:35 BreakfastBurrito wrote:On June 20 2012 04:30 Jasiwel wrote:
I have a good number of ideas about balance for SCII, but currently there's one I'm finding very difficult to find agreeable in terms of plausibility and diversity:
Stim
Stim is the reason why the M/M/M combo works and it's the reason why most all Terrans in nearly every league go Bio. Now what I'm saying isn't for the sake of helping Toss or Zerg necessarily win easier against Terran. I'm expressing my distaste for it because I feel it really makes the Terran race incredibly bland and linear, almost as much as most of the current Protoss builds out there. The real tragedy is that Terran is utterly dependent, or worse if it's acting like it's utterly dependent, on an almost gamebreaking strategy like the M/M/M or M/M/M/S.
I honestly think some point in a future expansion (maybe the Legacy of the Void) that Stim should be removed to promote Terran to find better, more innovative ways (like the race is supposed to) in defeating opponents. That's just two cents though. I simply find it to be bland and exploitable game design when units that are counted as Tier 1 and are also among the most cost effective units in the game are devastating every other Tier as a result of an ability that is easily compensated by other units. Taking out an ability does not make the game more varied, it makes the game more bland. For what you describe you need to change the rest of the units to make them viable and not just nerf bio into the ground. Yes, you are correct that taking out an ability can make the game more bland. However, when an ability like Stim is obliging most strategies to take up a confined set of units, like we're seeing with Terran, then that ability is making the game more bland. I have friends that tell me the exact thing about Bio though, that by removing Stim, Bio would become insignificant or weakened. However, you must keep in mind that Bio is also Tier 1 and should therefore should not be this powerful to begin with. It's one thing for Tier 1 units to be able to ultimately defeat other Tier 1 units, but when Tier 1 units are smashing the upper Tiers like glass, then some design principle has become wayward. I think Stim is causing that waywardness. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the general design principle of a Tier 1 unit is to support the other, higher Tiers and to exist as a primary force in the beginning of the game. When you look at Protoss and Zerg, this is exactly what you see. I'm not saying either one of them is balanced by any means, but that design principle at least sticks with those two races. Zerg and Toss also rely heavly on lower tech units. You can't just take out Stim completely it's the only reason Bio units even get build at all. Without Stim they wouldn't even work as support thats how bad Stimless Bio is.
Yes, but unlike Terran they often (or rather have to) use them in conjunction with other Tiers. For Toss you can't win with just Gateway units in PvT, thus they require the Colossus, Archon, and HT to accompany them. For Zerg it's the Infestor, Brood Lord, Corruptor, et cetera with the Lings and Roaches. Terran more often than not uses nothing besides M/M/M/G (PvT), M/M/M/S (PvZ), or M/M/M/V (both).
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On June 20 2012 04:41 Jasiwel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 04:35 BreakfastBurrito wrote:On June 20 2012 04:30 Jasiwel wrote:
I have a good number of ideas about balance for SCII, but currently there's one I'm finding very difficult to find agreeable in terms of plausibility and diversity:
Stim
Stim is the reason why the M/M/M combo works and it's the reason why most all Terrans in nearly every league go Bio. Now what I'm saying isn't for the sake of helping Toss or Zerg necessarily win easier against Terran. I'm expressing my distaste for it because I feel it really makes the Terran race incredibly bland and linear, almost as much as most of the current Protoss builds out there. The real tragedy is that Terran is utterly dependent, or worse if it's acting like it's utterly dependent, on an almost gamebreaking strategy like the M/M/M or M/M/M/S.
I honestly think some point in a future expansion (maybe the Legacy of the Void) that Stim should be removed to promote Terran to find better, more innovative ways (like the race is supposed to) in defeating opponents. That's just two cents though. I simply find it to be bland and exploitable game design when units that are counted as Tier 1 and are also among the most cost effective units in the game are devastating every other Tier as a result of an ability that is easily compensated by other units. Taking out an ability does not make the game more varied, it makes the game more bland. For what you describe you need to change the rest of the units to make them viable and not just nerf bio into the ground. Yes, you are correct that taking out an ability can make the game more bland. However, when an ability like Stim is obliging most strategies to take up a confined set of units, like we're seeing with Terran, then that ability is making the game more bland. I have friends that tell me the exact thing about Bio though, that by removing Stim, Bio would become insignificant or weakened. However, you must keep in mind that Bio is also Tier 1 and should therefore should not be this powerful to begin with. It's one thing for Tier 1 units to be able to ultimately defeat other Tier 1 units, but when Tier 1 units are smashing the upper Tiers like glass, then some design principle has become wayward. I think Stim is causing that waywardness. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the general design principle of a Tier 1 unit is to support the other, higher Tiers and to exist as a primary force in the beginning of the game. When you look at Protoss and Zerg, this is exactly what you see. I'm not saying either one of them is balanced by any means, but that design principle at least sticks with those two races.
Terran never worked this way, not even in BW.
The reason why this doesn't is because each unit is fundamentally specific. In BW, you had two unit compsitions: Bio and Mech. You never really saw Bio-Mech, though you would see Marine/Tank in TvZ and occasionally in TvP. The only unit that wasn't specific is the Marine, but they were extremely fragile. You usually see Mech in TvP because they don't flat out die to Reavers and Psi-Storm.
It's basically the same in SC2, except the Marine is stronger and the Marauder is as fast as the Marine, and Medivacs are excellent support. Since Medivacs are specifically healers, they don't need upgrades. This allows T players to focus on Bio-based upgrades. Those Bio-based upgrades essentially boosts that Bio from Tier 1 to Tier 2.5. It's the same exact thing for Mech, though I feel Mech as a whole is fundamentally broken.
The real support units are the Spellcasters. Ghosts and Ravens don't nessecarilly need upgrades to be strong support units.
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Am i the the only Terran here that thinks the nerfs (well most of them) were reasonable and needed EXCEPT the Ghost/snipe nerf? The main problem with TvP/Z is that Terran's late game tech SUCK and have almost no place in the game . Especially in Z where the only lategame unit was the ghost. I don't understand the nerf at all. How can a terran stop BL transition to ultras, or vice versa? Ghosts were the only thing that countered both, and it's not like it could completely shut them down, there were still the danger of getting fungal'd etc. And zerg could always transition back to roaches if terran is getting out of control with ghosts but lack other units. And another thing with ghosts is that snipe became useless in other match-ups, while it was not really that strong in the first place, though had its uses. About the queen range buff, i kinda have to agree with it, because terrans all had to do is open up with reactored hellions and get mass map control and some times even trade ridiculous amount of drones.
Tl;dr----> I really dislike the snipe nerf and i believe IT SHOULD NEVER HAPPE, as for the queen range buff i see it's logic and forces terrans to do something else than reactor hellions 100% of the time while still leaving reactor hellions as a viable opening.
EDIT: Totally forgot about reapers, funny but at the same time tragic. The new queen range COMPLETELY killed reaper openings TvZ. While this might contradict with what i said above, i thin a solution will be an upgrade for reapers(should be cheap and fast to research) to give Reapers an extra point of range or 2 so they are not completely shut down by a unit that will be built otherwise and could award the user with good control and micro, which will make the game more entertaining and it'll bring more variety in openings other than that reactor hellion crap which got completely overused.
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On June 20 2012 04:52 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 03:12 zmansman17 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 20 2012 02:39 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 02:22 dde wrote:
I seriously wonder when blizzard will take a step to solve current situation. I really strongly believe the Queen range was needed. I am also happy that this changed brought to light the fundamental issued with Terran that Blizzard has been ignoring for such a long time. Terran has a crap lategameSome of the issues of the lategame is the lack of a lategame transitions. The and lack of a decent T3 Caster. In BW TvZ lategame Terran either went SK(MM+Sci) or Mech. These were their transitions out of Bio Tank. If Terran did not effectively kill the Zerg before Hive Tech, he was forced into one or the other. Either abuse Irradiate with MM and tons of Science Vessels, or go toe to toe with the Zerg using Mech. Terran has no Transition into lategame tech in any match-up in SC2. I agree with Terran not having a viable late game, but the Queen range was too much. The overlord speed buff may have been needed, at least to some extent, but not both buffs.11/11 rax used to be a fun gamble whereupon an extremely well-executed rush could win a game if the Zerg opponent showed poor micro. Now, however, the same extremely well-executed 11/11 rush is negated with poor micro. Reactor hellion, Reaper FE, other 2 rax variants lack the same potency that they once had (which is to put it lightly). I for one used to open Reaper FE in every TvZ. The reapers allowed me to harass the Zerg, to reward my micro against queens (you could actually kill queens even against great players). This allowed you to delay injects, make them waste APM trying to deal with the harass, and tempted them to over-produce lings. Now, Zergs don't need to do ANYTHING against Reaper FE. They simply make 1 queen for each base, and maybe they even add more queens with their build. Even the principle of the threat (when you hid a reaper for later use) does not exist because it can be blindly defended. Good luck against that. The highly entertaining and fun bunker rush builds that we used to see, which in my opinion, epitomized the TvZ match up, no longer exist because they are so easily denied. Queen range permits queens to just target repairing or building SCVs, or even hit marines before they jump in bunkers. Before, defense required great drone pulls and adroit execution from the Zerg. Now, even a haphazard A move will suffice. And note that not only was the timing of Terran's bunkers nerfed (they took longer to build), but the Rax themselves were nerfed (they also took longer to build). So if Zergs were losing to 11/11 rax beforehand, there's really no excuse short of lack of practice against the build. I like your post, and you do bring alot of good points up. Watching bunker rushes was the best thing in the world. Watching Zerg and Terran duke it out in a micro battle was the best.
I really hope you are not serious. Bunker rushes is the most stupid and unfun thing I seen in any RTS so far. If they are gone for good all I can say Good Riddance.
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On June 20 2012 04:58 Silencioseu wrote:
Am i the the only Terran here that thinks the nerfs (well most of them) were reasonable and needed EXCEPT the Ghost/snipe nerf? The main problem with TvP/Z is that Terran's late game tech SUCK and have almost no place in the game . Especially in Z where the only lategame unit was the ghost. I don't understand the nerf at all. How can a terran stop BL transition to ultras, or vice versa? Ghosts were the only thing that countered both, and it's not like it could completely shut them down, there were still the danger of getting fungal'd etc. And zerg could always transition back to roaches if terran is getting out of control with ghosts but lack other units. And another thing with ghosts is that snipe became useless in other match-ups, while it was not really that strong in the first place, though had its uses. About the queen range buff, i kinda have to agree with it, because terrans all had to do is open up with reactored hellions and get mass map control and some times even trade ridiculous amount of drones.
Tl;dr----> I really dislike the snipe nerf and i believe IT SHOULD NEVER HAPPE, as for the queen range buff i see it's logic and forces terrans to do something else than reactor hellions 100% of the time while still leaving reactor hellions as a viable opening.
The Ghost needed to be nerfed, but not on the level that Blizzard intended.
Bottomline though, the patches basically snowballed into the imbalance we have now.
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Lalush vs Sase TSL Qualifier 4: Immortals?
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On June 20 2012 04:56 HeroMystic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 04:41 Jasiwel wrote:On June 20 2012 04:35 BreakfastBurrito wrote:On June 20 2012 04:30 Jasiwel wrote:
I have a good number of ideas about balance for SCII, but currently there's one I'm finding very difficult to find agreeable in terms of plausibility and diversity:
Stim
Stim is the reason why the M/M/M combo works and it's the reason why most all Terrans in nearly every league go Bio. Now what I'm saying isn't for the sake of helping Toss or Zerg necessarily win easier against Terran. I'm expressing my distaste for it because I feel it really makes the Terran race incredibly bland and linear, almost as much as most of the current Protoss builds out there. The real tragedy is that Terran is utterly dependent, or worse if it's acting like it's utterly dependent, on an almost gamebreaking strategy like the M/M/M or M/M/M/S.
I honestly think some point in a future expansion (maybe the Legacy of the Void) that Stim should be removed to promote Terran to find better, more innovative ways (like the race is supposed to) in defeating opponents. That's just two cents though. I simply find it to be bland and exploitable game design when units that are counted as Tier 1 and are also among the most cost effective units in the game are devastating every other Tier as a result of an ability that is easily compensated by other units. Taking out an ability does not make the game more varied, it makes the game more bland. For what you describe you need to change the rest of the units to make them viable and not just nerf bio into the ground. Yes, you are correct that taking out an ability can make the game more bland. However, when an ability like Stim is obliging most strategies to take up a confined set of units, like we're seeing with Terran, then that ability is making the game more bland. I have friends that tell me the exact thing about Bio though, that by removing Stim, Bio would become insignificant or weakened. However, you must keep in mind that Bio is also Tier 1 and should therefore should not be this powerful to begin with. It's one thing for Tier 1 units to be able to ultimately defeat other Tier 1 units, but when Tier 1 units are smashing the upper Tiers like glass, then some design principle has become wayward. I think Stim is causing that waywardness. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the general design principle of a Tier 1 unit is to support the other, higher Tiers and to exist as a primary force in the beginning of the game. When you look at Protoss and Zerg, this is exactly what you see. I'm not saying either one of them is balanced by any means, but that design principle at least sticks with those two races. Terran never worked this way, not even in BW. The reason why this doesn't is because each unit is fundamentally specific. In BW, you had two unit compsitions: Bio and Mech. You never really saw Bio-Mech, though you would see Marine/Tank in TvZ and occasionally in TvP. The only unit that wasn't specific is the Marine, but they were extremely fragile. You usually see Mech in TvP because they don't flat out die to Reavers and Psi-Storm. It's basically the same in SC2, except the Marine is stronger and the Marauder is as fast as the Marine, and Medivacs are excellent support. Since Medivacs are specifically healers, they don't need upgrades. This allows T players to focus on Bio-based upgrades. Those Bio-based upgrades essentially boosts that Bio from Tier 1 to Tier 2.5. It's the same exact thing for Mech, though I feel Mech as a whole is fundamentally broken. The real support units are the Spellcasters. Ghosts and Ravens don't nessecarilly need upgrades to be strong support units.
I was wondering if this was the case with Terran for a while. However, I do not feel this justifies the situation in SCII at all. My point is that Stim dims any usage of Tiers or diversity beyond the M/M/M composition. Nearly every Terran game I've played or seen has involved this composition with little deviation. Now before anyone states that I simply hate the current state of Terran, I want to say I hate the current state of Protoss as well. Both face bland and predictable (regardless of whether or not they're effective) builds or compositions that everyone keeps seeing on a consistent basis. Protoss compositions/builds are a result of poor Stargate units and Protoss using anything they can that won't be relatively smashed quickly by the other two races. Terran compositions/builds are a result of Bio being very potent because of, as I'm currently seeing it, Stim.
I want to clarify, I'm not completely suggesting that Stim be removed or anything that drastic. I'm only questioning how it affects the game design and balance of SCII gameplay, how that all affects the Terran race and the other races as a result. If anything my questioning maye be mute as HotS could change its effectiveness to be balanced facing all of the other elements. Regardless, in my opinion as a spectator and player, Stimpack makes Terran look very narrow.
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I'm somewhat baffled why they didn't simply make snipe do less damage vs massive. It's not like Snipe was too good against Zealots, Roaches, Mutalisks, or Corrupters.
On June 20 2012 04:54 Lightspeaker wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 03:23 Toadvine wrote:
The lack of lategame transitions is a problem in TvP presumably, and I'm in favor of buffing Thors, BCs and Ravens, just to see if it would change anything. However, Terran in SC2 seems very intentionally designed around Bio, where the Marine is meant to be the basic answer to everything. It's not coincidence that Protoss need their expensive tech just to not lose to Marines and Medivacs. As long as something like that is in the game, I doubt Terrans will be allowed to transition to a playstyle that doesn't involve Marines somehow. It's kind of the reverse Protoss problem, where the relative crappiness of gateway units mandates the power of Colossi and HTs; except for Terran, the power of Marines mandates the shittiness of BCs and Ravens. Funnily enough I've been thinking and saying this for quite a while now. I reckon the sole reason Terran tech is in the state it is with constant buffs and nerfs to try and somehow balance it is a direct result of the Marine being so strong. As you yourself said...Terrans complain about Colossi and they complain almost constantly about the Ghost EMP nerfs which effected the HT/Ghost dynamic...but the simple fact is that without this kind of splash damage Protoss just DIES to Marines. Simply put: instead of doing anything about the Marine they instead tried to balance all of the other Terran units around it. Which has left Terran with no other reasonable options.
It's kind of funny, because according to Dustin Browder, one of the goals of buffing bio and introducing Marauders, was to stop Siege Tanks from being required in every matchup. But instead, they ended up with Marines replacing Tanks as the required unit.
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On June 20 2012 05:08 HeroMystic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 04:58 Silencioseu wrote:
Am i the the only Terran here that thinks the nerfs (well most of them) were reasonable and needed EXCEPT the Ghost/snipe nerf? The main problem with TvP/Z is that Terran's late game tech SUCK and have almost no place in the game . Especially in Z where the only lategame unit was the ghost. I don't understand the nerf at all. How can a terran stop BL transition to ultras, or vice versa? Ghosts were the only thing that countered both, and it's not like it could completely shut them down, there were still the danger of getting fungal'd etc. And zerg could always transition back to roaches if terran is getting out of control with ghosts but lack other units. And another thing with ghosts is that snipe became useless in other match-ups, while it was not really that strong in the first place, though had its uses. About the queen range buff, i kinda have to agree with it, because terrans all had to do is open up with reactored hellions and get mass map control and some times even trade ridiculous amount of drones.
Tl;dr----> I really dislike the snipe nerf and i believe IT SHOULD NEVER HAPPE, as for the queen range buff i see it's logic and forces terrans to do something else than reactor hellions 100% of the time while still leaving reactor hellions as a viable opening. The Ghost needed to be nerfed, but not on the level that Blizzard intended. Bottomline though, the patches basically snowballed into the imbalance we have now.
The Ghost nerf was completely unnecessary, any Z who allowed a T to setup the infrastructure and the amount of bases to get 20+ Ghosts/Turrets/Sentry Towers/PFs all over the map, etc. etc. played the match-up horribly wrong. The only reason why people were playing turtle = > Ghosts was because Z's had figured out how to defend against pretty much all the timing attacks that Terran could throw at them, including the majority of the Blue Flame builds, and Marine/Tank or Mech builds. Since the removal of the Ghost nerf, you hardly ever see Terrans playing for late game, and most just do some sort of cheesy/gimmicky opening to get massively ahead or outright kill the Z. It's only gotten worse since the Queen buff, since the only other viable macro build that Terran had just went to the shitter since the buff.
Not to mention Z's refused to play aggressive for whatever reason despite the fact that alot of Terran players at the time were playing extremely greedy, with nothing more than maybe a bunker and a tank to defend their natural. A 2 base Roach/Bling all in would have massacred this. It was a classic case of insta nerf rather than adapt, just like how KA was insta nerf without Terran players learning to adapt despite having ridiculous EMP radius, or Z players whining that they couldn't beat P death balls when alot of people knew that there was a significant timing where P players were extremely weak (which is what the 200 Stephano Roach max abuses now).
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On June 20 2012 05:08 HeroMystic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 04:58 Silencioseu wrote:
Am i the the only Terran here that thinks the nerfs (well most of them) were reasonable and needed EXCEPT the Ghost/snipe nerf? The main problem with TvP/Z is that Terran's late game tech SUCK and have almost no place in the game . Especially in Z where the only lategame unit was the ghost. I don't understand the nerf at all. How can a terran stop BL transition to ultras, or vice versa? Ghosts were the only thing that countered both, and it's not like it could completely shut them down, there were still the danger of getting fungal'd etc. And zerg could always transition back to roaches if terran is getting out of control with ghosts but lack other units. And another thing with ghosts is that snipe became useless in other match-ups, while it was not really that strong in the first place, though had its uses. About the queen range buff, i kinda have to agree with it, because terrans all had to do is open up with reactored hellions and get mass map control and some times even trade ridiculous amount of drones.
Tl;dr----> I really dislike the snipe nerf and i believe IT SHOULD NEVER HAPPE, as for the queen range buff i see it's logic and forces terrans to do something else than reactor hellions 100% of the time while still leaving reactor hellions as a viable opening. The Ghost needed to be nerfed, but not on the level that Blizzard intended. Bottomline though, the patches basically snowballed into the imbalance we have now.
I still think the snipe shouldn't be nerfed. It's not like Z had no answer and it was completely broken. It was a micro battle between EMP on infestors, fungals on ghosts and snipes on broodlords. Also EMP ---> less snipes. If the Terran could get to 30+ Ghosts that would shut down both all infestors and snipe 20+ broodlords to death, that means that Z did something wrong.
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On June 20 2012 04:59 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 04:52 GinDo wrote:On June 20 2012 03:12 zmansman17 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 20 2012 02:39 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 02:22 dde wrote:
I seriously wonder when blizzard will take a step to solve current situation. I really strongly believe the Queen range was needed. I am also happy that this changed brought to light the fundamental issued with Terran that Blizzard has been ignoring for such a long time. Terran has a crap lategameSome of the issues of the lategame is the lack of a lategame transitions. The and lack of a decent T3 Caster. In BW TvZ lategame Terran either went SK(MM+Sci) or Mech. These were their transitions out of Bio Tank. If Terran did not effectively kill the Zerg before Hive Tech, he was forced into one or the other. Either abuse Irradiate with MM and tons of Science Vessels, or go toe to toe with the Zerg using Mech. Terran has no Transition into lategame tech in any match-up in SC2. I agree with Terran not having a viable late game, but the Queen range was too much. The overlord speed buff may have been needed, at least to some extent, but not both buffs.11/11 rax used to be a fun gamble whereupon an extremely well-executed rush could win a game if the Zerg opponent showed poor micro. Now, however, the same extremely well-executed 11/11 rush is negated with poor micro. Reactor hellion, Reaper FE, other 2 rax variants lack the same potency that they once had (which is to put it lightly). I for one used to open Reaper FE in every TvZ. The reapers allowed me to harass the Zerg, to reward my micro against queens (you could actually kill queens even against great players). This allowed you to delay injects, make them waste APM trying to deal with the harass, and tempted them to over-produce lings. Now, Zergs don't need to do ANYTHING against Reaper FE. They simply make 1 queen for each base, and maybe they even add more queens with their build. Even the principle of the threat (when you hid a reaper for later use) does not exist because it can be blindly defended. Good luck against that. The highly entertaining and fun bunker rush builds that we used to see, which in my opinion, epitomized the TvZ match up, no longer exist because they are so easily denied. Queen range permits queens to just target repairing or building SCVs, or even hit marines before they jump in bunkers. Before, defense required great drone pulls and adroit execution from the Zerg. Now, even a haphazard A move will suffice. And note that not only was the timing of Terran's bunkers nerfed (they took longer to build), but the Rax themselves were nerfed (they also took longer to build). So if Zergs were losing to 11/11 rax beforehand, there's really no excuse short of lack of practice against the build. I like your post, and you do bring alot of good points up. Watching bunker rushes was the best thing in the world. Watching Zerg and Terran duke it out in a micro battle was the best. I really hope you are not serious. Bunker rushes is the most stupid and unfun thing I seen in any RTS so far. If they are gone for good all I can say Good Riddance.
Really? I love seeing micro battles, not every game but I really enjoy watching cheese.
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