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"Posts in this thread should be more thought about than offhand remarks"
Wow a balance thread that might not be a QQfest, its even on TL I have hope, civilised discussion imminent.
"A Personal Plea From Techno To Protoss Players:" Bias from the guy that starts the thread?!
" I say: "Fuck MC! Make your own Protoss!"" Dafuq?
"We've seen Zerg evolve immensely in the time since release" And protoss haven't?...-.- screw you dude
As for balance, I have been very happy with it for the past 4 months roughly, IMO Toss were a bit underpowered before that.
PvZ could be better, not much action in the early game these days and zerg often just make roaches. Lategame is a bit too dependant on the vortex and I find it annoying that zerg can neural the mothership.
I find TvZ boring to play and watch. Very happy with all the mirrors right now though.
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TvZ is a lot of fun and the reason i love playing t is that there's not one set way to play it. You can mix and match very easily. I beleive T's need to start varying much more. Instead of going mech after your hellion banshee harass, go into full bio. Or you can do a bio push and tech switch to full mech. Make the zerg guess what you're doing. Being able to change add ons is a gift and allows you to change unit comps almost instantly. Just wait a couple weeks, blizzard will force add ons to stick to the building type! 
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On June 20 2012 05:23 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 05:08 HeroMystic wrote:On June 20 2012 04:58 Silencioseu wrote:
Am i the the only Terran here that thinks the nerfs (well most of them) were reasonable and needed EXCEPT the Ghost/snipe nerf? The main problem with TvP/Z is that Terran's late game tech SUCK and have almost no place in the game . Especially in Z where the only lategame unit was the ghost. I don't understand the nerf at all. How can a terran stop BL transition to ultras, or vice versa? Ghosts were the only thing that countered both, and it's not like it could completely shut them down, there were still the danger of getting fungal'd etc. And zerg could always transition back to roaches if terran is getting out of control with ghosts but lack other units. And another thing with ghosts is that snipe became useless in other match-ups, while it was not really that strong in the first place, though had its uses. About the queen range buff, i kinda have to agree with it, because terrans all had to do is open up with reactored hellions and get mass map control and some times even trade ridiculous amount of drones.
Tl;dr----> I really dislike the snipe nerf and i believe IT SHOULD NEVER HAPPE, as for the queen range buff i see it's logic and forces terrans to do something else than reactor hellions 100% of the time while still leaving reactor hellions as a viable opening. The Ghost needed to be nerfed, but not on the level that Blizzard intended. Bottomline though, the patches basically snowballed into the imbalance we have now. The Ghost nerf was completely unnecessary, any Z who allowed a T to setup the infrastructure and the amount of bases to get 20+ Ghosts/Turrets/Sentry Towers/PFs all over the map, etc. etc. played the match-up horribly wrong. The only reason why people were playing turtle = > Ghosts was because Z's had figured out how to defend against pretty much all the timing attacks that Terran could throw at them, including the majority of the Blue Flame builds, and Marine/Tank or Mech builds. Since the removal of the Ghost nerf, you hardly ever see Terrans playing for late game, and most just do some sort of cheesy/gimmicky opening to get massively ahead or outright kill the Z. It's only gotten worse since the Queen buff, since the only other viable macro build that Terran had just went to the shitter since the buff. Not to mention Z's refused to play aggressive for whatever reason despite the fact that alot of Terran players at the time were playing extremely greedy, with nothing more than maybe a bunker and a tank to defend their natural. A 2 base Roach/Bling all in would have massacred this. It was a classic case of insta nerf rather than adapt, just like how KA was insta nerf without Terran players learning to adapt despite having ridiculous EMP radius, or Z players whining that they couldn't beat P death balls when alot of people knew that there was a significant timing where P players were extremely weak (which is what the 200 Stephano Roach max abuses now).
I generally agree, though my reasoning for Snipe being nerfed is the same reason why Blizzard decided to buff Zerg and caused this imbalance: Zerg couldn't really scout. Hellions were enabled to keep Zerg at bay while T was able to macro up relatively safely.
Now that Zerg can scout and basically do whatever the hell they want, I can agree that Snipe pre-nerf would work completely fine at this state of the game.
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On June 20 2012 05:50 WaKai wrote:TvZ is a lot of fun and the reason i love playing t is that there's not one set way to play it. You can mix and match very easily. I beleive T's need to start varying much more. Instead of going mech after your hellion banshee harass, go into full bio. Or you can do a bio push and tech switch to full mech. Make the zerg guess what you're doing. Being able to change add ons is a gift and allows you to change unit comps almost instantly. Just wait a couple weeks, blizzard will force add ons to stick to the building type!
You can't just say "Do a bio push and then tech switch to mech" without giving us a how and why. Tech switching from bio to mech just isnt viable. You can't just invest in 4+ baracks, upgrades for you bio such as stim and marine combat shields and simply throw down 5 factories and go all out mech. Not to mention, bio attack and armor upgrades don't stack with mech. .This simply just doesnt work at high level play when the builds are so clean and so well timed out. It's a nice idea but not possible.
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On June 20 2012 04:59 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 04:52 GinDo wrote:On June 20 2012 03:12 zmansman17 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 20 2012 02:39 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 02:22 dde wrote:
I seriously wonder when blizzard will take a step to solve current situation. I really strongly believe the Queen range was needed. I am also happy that this changed brought to light the fundamental issued with Terran that Blizzard has been ignoring for such a long time. Terran has a crap lategameSome of the issues of the lategame is the lack of a lategame transitions. The and lack of a decent T3 Caster. In BW TvZ lategame Terran either went SK(MM+Sci) or Mech. These were their transitions out of Bio Tank. If Terran did not effectively kill the Zerg before Hive Tech, he was forced into one or the other. Either abuse Irradiate with MM and tons of Science Vessels, or go toe to toe with the Zerg using Mech. Terran has no Transition into lategame tech in any match-up in SC2. I agree with Terran not having a viable late game, but the Queen range was too much. The overlord speed buff may have been needed, at least to some extent, but not both buffs.11/11 rax used to be a fun gamble whereupon an extremely well-executed rush could win a game if the Zerg opponent showed poor micro. Now, however, the same extremely well-executed 11/11 rush is negated with poor micro. Reactor hellion, Reaper FE, other 2 rax variants lack the same potency that they once had (which is to put it lightly). I for one used to open Reaper FE in every TvZ. The reapers allowed me to harass the Zerg, to reward my micro against queens (you could actually kill queens even against great players). This allowed you to delay injects, make them waste APM trying to deal with the harass, and tempted them to over-produce lings. Now, Zergs don't need to do ANYTHING against Reaper FE. They simply make 1 queen for each base, and maybe they even add more queens with their build. Even the principle of the threat (when you hid a reaper for later use) does not exist because it can be blindly defended. Good luck against that. The highly entertaining and fun bunker rush builds that we used to see, which in my opinion, epitomized the TvZ match up, no longer exist because they are so easily denied. Queen range permits queens to just target repairing or building SCVs, or even hit marines before they jump in bunkers. Before, defense required great drone pulls and adroit execution from the Zerg. Now, even a haphazard A move will suffice. And note that not only was the timing of Terran's bunkers nerfed (they took longer to build), but the Rax themselves were nerfed (they also took longer to build). So if Zergs were losing to 11/11 rax beforehand, there's really no excuse short of lack of practice against the build. I like your post, and you do bring alot of good points up. Watching bunker rushes was the best thing in the world. Watching Zerg and Terran duke it out in a micro battle was the best. I really hope you are not serious. Bunker rushes is the most stupid and unfun thing I seen in any RTS so far. If they are gone for good all I can say Good Riddance.
Losing to a Bunker Rush sucks. But that doesn't mean it's not fun to watch. I remember watching Boxer beat Yellow by Bunker Rushing 3 games in a row. EPIC!
Nail-biting moments are very rare in SC2. Bunker Rushes are one of them, the other are Ling Bling Wars. Are they necessarily fun to play? No because they are stressful(Which is why Blizzard nerfed both of them, for the casuals who cried too much). But they make for great TV.
I think Blizzard is catering to much to the casuals when it comes to "near-death experiences". If anything we need more of it. We need more battles that relies only on the players ability to micro.
EDIT: For language clarity. Thanks MrCash.
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On June 20 2012 06:32 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 04:59 -Archangel- wrote:On June 20 2012 04:52 GinDo wrote:On June 20 2012 03:12 zmansman17 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 20 2012 02:39 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 02:22 dde wrote:
I seriously wonder when blizzard will take a step to solve current situation. I really strongly believe the Queen range was needed. I am also happy that this changed brought to light the fundamental issued with Terran that Blizzard has been ignoring for such a long time. Terran has a crap lategameSome of the issues of the lategame is the lack of a lategame transitions. The and lack of a decent T3 Caster. In BW TvZ lategame Terran either went SK(MM+Sci) or Mech. These were their transitions out of Bio Tank. If Terran did not effectively kill the Zerg before Hive Tech, he was forced into one or the other. Either abuse Irradiate with MM and tons of Science Vessels, or go toe to toe with the Zerg using Mech. Terran has no Transition into lategame tech in any match-up in SC2. I agree with Terran not having a viable late game, but the Queen range was too much. The overlord speed buff may have been needed, at least to some extent, but not both buffs.11/11 rax used to be a fun gamble whereupon an extremely well-executed rush could win a game if the Zerg opponent showed poor micro. Now, however, the same extremely well-executed 11/11 rush is negated with poor micro. Reactor hellion, Reaper FE, other 2 rax variants lack the same potency that they once had (which is to put it lightly). I for one used to open Reaper FE in every TvZ. The reapers allowed me to harass the Zerg, to reward my micro against queens (you could actually kill queens even against great players). This allowed you to delay injects, make them waste APM trying to deal with the harass, and tempted them to over-produce lings. Now, Zergs don't need to do ANYTHING against Reaper FE. They simply make 1 queen for each base, and maybe they even add more queens with their build. Even the principle of the threat (when you hid a reaper for later use) does not exist because it can be blindly defended. Good luck against that. The highly entertaining and fun bunker rush builds that we used to see, which in my opinion, epitomized the TvZ match up, no longer exist because they are so easily denied. Queen range permits queens to just target repairing or building SCVs, or even hit marines before they jump in bunkers. Before, defense required great drone pulls and adroit execution from the Zerg. Now, even a haphazard A move will suffice. And note that not only was the timing of Terran's bunkers nerfed (they took longer to build), but the Rax themselves were nerfed (they also took longer to build). So if Zergs were losing to 11/11 rax beforehand, there's really no excuse short of lack of practice against the build. I like your post, and you do bring alot of good points up. Watching bunker rushes was the best thing in the world. Watching Zerg and Terran duke it out in a micro battle was the best. I really hope you are not serious. Bunker rushes is the most stupid and unfun thing I seen in any RTS so far. If they are gone for good all I can say Good Riddance. Losing to a Bunker Rush sucks. But that doesn't mean it's not fun to watch. I remember watching Boxer beat Yellow by Bunker Rushing 3 games in a row. EPIC! Nail-biting moments are very rare in SC2. Bunker Rushes are one of them, the other are Ling Bling Wars. Are they necessarily fun to play? No because they are stressful(Which is why Blizzard nerfed both of them, for the casuals who cried too much). But they make for great TV. I think Blizzard is catering to much to the casuals when it comes to "near-death experiences". If anything we need more of it. We need more coin-flip battles that relies only on the players ability to micro.
Might be good to not refer to micro intensive fights as being a coin-flip. I don't think you meant to, but it certainly diminishes the value of micro intensive fights, as opposed to better unit composition, A-Move fights.
I completely understand what you mean.
Much like many zerg players complain about ling/baneling being coin-flip, because one baneling hit and it might just as well be the end of the game. But that's just a very narrow and risky micro fight, which you can win or lose by a thread. It's intense and difficult, but calling it a coin-flip is just making excuses for poor micro. It seems like people who complain about it being a coin-flip lose those fights 9 out of 10 times, which is far from random. At least that's how I feel about it.
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On June 20 2012 06:32 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 04:59 -Archangel- wrote:On June 20 2012 04:52 GinDo wrote:On June 20 2012 03:12 zmansman17 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 20 2012 02:39 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 02:22 dde wrote:
I seriously wonder when blizzard will take a step to solve current situation. I really strongly believe the Queen range was needed. I am also happy that this changed brought to light the fundamental issued with Terran that Blizzard has been ignoring for such a long time. Terran has a crap lategameSome of the issues of the lategame is the lack of a lategame transitions. The and lack of a decent T3 Caster. In BW TvZ lategame Terran either went SK(MM+Sci) or Mech. These were their transitions out of Bio Tank. If Terran did not effectively kill the Zerg before Hive Tech, he was forced into one or the other. Either abuse Irradiate with MM and tons of Science Vessels, or go toe to toe with the Zerg using Mech. Terran has no Transition into lategame tech in any match-up in SC2. I agree with Terran not having a viable late game, but the Queen range was too much. The overlord speed buff may have been needed, at least to some extent, but not both buffs.11/11 rax used to be a fun gamble whereupon an extremely well-executed rush could win a game if the Zerg opponent showed poor micro. Now, however, the same extremely well-executed 11/11 rush is negated with poor micro. Reactor hellion, Reaper FE, other 2 rax variants lack the same potency that they once had (which is to put it lightly). I for one used to open Reaper FE in every TvZ. The reapers allowed me to harass the Zerg, to reward my micro against queens (you could actually kill queens even against great players). This allowed you to delay injects, make them waste APM trying to deal with the harass, and tempted them to over-produce lings. Now, Zergs don't need to do ANYTHING against Reaper FE. They simply make 1 queen for each base, and maybe they even add more queens with their build. Even the principle of the threat (when you hid a reaper for later use) does not exist because it can be blindly defended. Good luck against that. The highly entertaining and fun bunker rush builds that we used to see, which in my opinion, epitomized the TvZ match up, no longer exist because they are so easily denied. Queen range permits queens to just target repairing or building SCVs, or even hit marines before they jump in bunkers. Before, defense required great drone pulls and adroit execution from the Zerg. Now, even a haphazard A move will suffice. And note that not only was the timing of Terran's bunkers nerfed (they took longer to build), but the Rax themselves were nerfed (they also took longer to build). So if Zergs were losing to 11/11 rax beforehand, there's really no excuse short of lack of practice against the build. I like your post, and you do bring alot of good points up. Watching bunker rushes was the best thing in the world. Watching Zerg and Terran duke it out in a micro battle was the best. I really hope you are not serious. Bunker rushes is the most stupid and unfun thing I seen in any RTS so far. If they are gone for good all I can say Good Riddance. Losing to a Bunker Rush sucks. But that doesn't mean it's not fun to watch. I remember watching Boxer beat Yellow by Bunker Rushing 3 games in a row. EPIC! Nail-biting moments are very rare in SC2. Bunker Rushes are one of them, the other are Ling Bling Wars. Are they necessarily fun to play? No because they are stressful(Which is why Blizzard nerfed both of them, for the casuals who cried too much). But they make for great TV. I think Blizzard is catering to much to the casuals when it comes to "near-death experiences". If anything we need more of it. We need more coin-flip battles that relies only on the players ability to micro.
Sadly I've heard the pros cry about these things as much as the casuals. They like to win as easily as possible without having to deal with these all or nothing situations. Can't blame them but it takes something away from the spectator appeal.
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On June 19 2012 23:08 Stormiii wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 22:57 -Archangel- wrote:
BTW, to people whining about TvZ: The problem will be fixed once terrans start using Ghosts again to emp/snipe infestors/queens. Broodlord/infestor/queen/corrupter army does not work if infestors/queens have no energy.
With ghost snipe nerf T stopped using them for EMP as well which was stupid But you realize the problem is that early game you can't harass, which means zerg gets sick economy, which means you get overrun. Nothing to do with latelategame.
It's only been a couple weeks since the patch. Too early to make any judgements about balance. Give it some time to settle in. HOTS is coming so everything will change regardless.
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On June 20 2012 06:55 mlspmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 23:08 Stormiii wrote:On June 19 2012 22:57 -Archangel- wrote:
BTW, to people whining about TvZ: The problem will be fixed once terrans start using Ghosts again to emp/snipe infestors/queens. Broodlord/infestor/queen/corrupter army does not work if infestors/queens have no energy.
With ghost snipe nerf T stopped using them for EMP as well which was stupid But you realize the problem is that early game you can't harass, which means zerg gets sick economy, which means you get overrun. Nothing to do with latelategame. It's only been a couple weeks since the patch. Too early to make any judgements about balance. Give it some time to settle in. HOTS is coming so everything will change regardless.
Well the harass beeing shutdown won't change. Its not like there's a Terran unit that can be used early on for harass other then stimless bio , helions or banshees which gets shutdown by queens and a few lings if need be.
You need to force the Zerg to build units from Larva else the Zerg eco will be just better than yours.
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On June 20 2012 06:39 MrCash wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 20 2012 06:32 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 04:59 -Archangel- wrote:On June 20 2012 04:52 GinDo wrote:On June 20 2012 03:12 zmansman17 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 20 2012 02:39 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 02:22 dde wrote:
I seriously wonder when blizzard will take a step to solve current situation. I really strongly believe the Queen range was needed. I am also happy that this changed brought to light the fundamental issued with Terran that Blizzard has been ignoring for such a long time. Terran has a crap lategameSome of the issues of the lategame is the lack of a lategame transitions. The and lack of a decent T3 Caster. In BW TvZ lategame Terran either went SK(MM+Sci) or Mech. These were their transitions out of Bio Tank. If Terran did not effectively kill the Zerg before Hive Tech, he was forced into one or the other. Either abuse Irradiate with MM and tons of Science Vessels, or go toe to toe with the Zerg using Mech. Terran has no Transition into lategame tech in any match-up in SC2. I agree with Terran not having a viable late game, but the Queen range was too much. The overlord speed buff may have been needed, at least to some extent, but not both buffs.11/11 rax used to be a fun gamble whereupon an extremely well-executed rush could win a game if the Zerg opponent showed poor micro. Now, however, the same extremely well-executed 11/11 rush is negated with poor micro. Reactor hellion, Reaper FE, other 2 rax variants lack the same potency that they once had (which is to put it lightly). I for one used to open Reaper FE in every TvZ. The reapers allowed me to harass the Zerg, to reward my micro against queens (you could actually kill queens even against great players). This allowed you to delay injects, make them waste APM trying to deal with the harass, and tempted them to over-produce lings. Now, Zergs don't need to do ANYTHING against Reaper FE. They simply make 1 queen for each base, and maybe they even add more queens with their build. Even the principle of the threat (when you hid a reaper for later use) does not exist because it can be blindly defended. Good luck against that. The highly entertaining and fun bunker rush builds that we used to see, which in my opinion, epitomized the TvZ match up, no longer exist because they are so easily denied. Queen range permits queens to just target repairing or building SCVs, or even hit marines before they jump in bunkers. Before, defense required great drone pulls and adroit execution from the Zerg. Now, even a haphazard A move will suffice. And note that not only was the timing of Terran's bunkers nerfed (they took longer to build), but the Rax themselves were nerfed (they also took longer to build). So if Zergs were losing to 11/11 rax beforehand, there's really no excuse short of lack of practice against the build. I like your post, and you do bring alot of good points up. Watching bunker rushes was the best thing in the world. Watching Zerg and Terran duke it out in a micro battle was the best. I really hope you are not serious. Bunker rushes is the most stupid and unfun thing I seen in any RTS so far. If they are gone for good all I can say Good Riddance. Losing to a Bunker Rush sucks. But that doesn't mean it's not fun to watch. I remember watching Boxer beat Yellow by Bunker Rushing 3 games in a row. EPIC! Nail-biting moments are very rare in SC2. Bunker Rushes are one of them, the other are Ling Bling Wars. Are they necessarily fun to play? No because they are stressful(Which is why Blizzard nerfed both of them, for the casuals who cried too much). But they make for great TV. I think Blizzard is catering to much to the casuals when it comes to "near-death experiences". If anything we need more of it. We need more coin-flip battles that relies only on the players ability to micro. Might be good to not refer to micro intensive fights as being a coin-flip. I don't think you meant to, but it certainly diminishes the value of micro intensive fights, as opposed to better unit composition, A-Move fights. I completely understand what you mean. Much like many zerg players complain about ling/baneling being coin-flip, because one baneling hit and it might just as well be the end of the game. But that's just a very narrow and risky micro fight, which you can win or lose by a thread. It's intense and difficult, but calling it a coin-flip is just making excuses for poor micro. It seems like people who complain about it being a coin-flip lose those fights 9 out of 10 times, which is far from random. At least that's how I feel about it.
Thanks for not jumping into conclusions. 
" very narrow and risky micro fight, which you can win or lose by a thread. It's intense and difficult, but calling it a coin-flip is just making excuses for poor micro" <- Favorite quote out of your post.
On June 20 2012 06:44 Rah wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 20 2012 06:32 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 04:59 -Archangel- wrote:On June 20 2012 04:52 GinDo wrote:On June 20 2012 03:12 zmansman17 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 20 2012 02:39 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 02:22 dde wrote:
I seriously wonder when blizzard will take a step to solve current situation. I really strongly believe the Queen range was needed. I am also happy that this changed brought to light the fundamental issued with Terran that Blizzard has been ignoring for such a long time. Terran has a crap lategameSome of the issues of the lategame is the lack of a lategame transitions. The and lack of a decent T3 Caster. In BW TvZ lategame Terran either went SK(MM+Sci) or Mech. These were their transitions out of Bio Tank. If Terran did not effectively kill the Zerg before Hive Tech, he was forced into one or the other. Either abuse Irradiate with MM and tons of Science Vessels, or go toe to toe with the Zerg using Mech. Terran has no Transition into lategame tech in any match-up in SC2. I agree with Terran not having a viable late game, but the Queen range was too much. The overlord speed buff may have been needed, at least to some extent, but not both buffs.11/11 rax used to be a fun gamble whereupon an extremely well-executed rush could win a game if the Zerg opponent showed poor micro. Now, however, the same extremely well-executed 11/11 rush is negated with poor micro. Reactor hellion, Reaper FE, other 2 rax variants lack the same potency that they once had (which is to put it lightly). I for one used to open Reaper FE in every TvZ. The reapers allowed me to harass the Zerg, to reward my micro against queens (you could actually kill queens even against great players). This allowed you to delay injects, make them waste APM trying to deal with the harass, and tempted them to over-produce lings. Now, Zergs don't need to do ANYTHING against Reaper FE. They simply make 1 queen for each base, and maybe they even add more queens with their build. Even the principle of the threat (when you hid a reaper for later use) does not exist because it can be blindly defended. Good luck against that. The highly entertaining and fun bunker rush builds that we used to see, which in my opinion, epitomized the TvZ match up, no longer exist because they are so easily denied. Queen range permits queens to just target repairing or building SCVs, or even hit marines before they jump in bunkers. Before, defense required great drone pulls and adroit execution from the Zerg. Now, even a haphazard A move will suffice. And note that not only was the timing of Terran's bunkers nerfed (they took longer to build), but the Rax themselves were nerfed (they also took longer to build). So if Zergs were losing to 11/11 rax beforehand, there's really no excuse short of lack of practice against the build. I like your post, and you do bring alot of good points up. Watching bunker rushes was the best thing in the world. Watching Zerg and Terran duke it out in a micro battle was the best. I really hope you are not serious. Bunker rushes is the most stupid and unfun thing I seen in any RTS so far. If they are gone for good all I can say Good Riddance. Losing to a Bunker Rush sucks. But that doesn't mean it's not fun to watch. I remember watching Boxer beat Yellow by Bunker Rushing 3 games in a row. EPIC! Nail-biting moments are very rare in SC2. Bunker Rushes are one of them, the other are Ling Bling Wars. Are they necessarily fun to play? No because they are stressful(Which is why Blizzard nerfed both of them, for the casuals who cried too much). But they make for great TV. I think Blizzard is catering to much to the casuals when it comes to "near-death experiences". If anything we need more of it. We need more coin-flip battles that relies only on the players ability to micro. Sadly I've heard the pros cry about these things as much as the casuals. They like to win as easily as possible without having to deal with these all or nothing situations. Can't blame them but it takes something away from the spectator appeal.
And pros do cry to much. Most Pros could careless if the game is fun to watch, as long as their getting paid for it.
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On June 20 2012 06:18 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 05:50 WaKai wrote:TvZ is a lot of fun and the reason i love playing t is that there's not one set way to play it. You can mix and match very easily. I beleive T's need to start varying much more. Instead of going mech after your hellion banshee harass, go into full bio. Or you can do a bio push and tech switch to full mech. Make the zerg guess what you're doing. Being able to change add ons is a gift and allows you to change unit comps almost instantly. Just wait a couple weeks, blizzard will force add ons to stick to the building type! You can't just say "Do a bio push and then tech switch to mech" without giving us a how and why. Tech switching from bio to mech just isnt viable. You can't just invest in 4+ baracks, upgrades for you bio such as stim and marine combat shields and simply throw down 5 factories and go all out mech. Not to mention, bio attack and armor upgrades don't stack with mech. .This simply just doesnt work at high level play when the builds are so clean and so well timed out. It's a nice idea but not possible.
you misS interpreted me. Sorry if i'm just being vague, but writing a half assed guide in a reply is not exactly helpful either and would be more confusing than helpful. What i mean is that, you can open up with 111 and transition into bio by switching the starport with the factory and rax on the techlab, building add ons with your factory while building rax. You can transition from anything with the 111, and terran got caught up in doing that sam strat and not mixing it up more. I'm not saying go triple factory into full bio, that's crazy. Its like taking the extreme of what i said.
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On June 20 2012 05:43 kranten wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 04:59 -Archangel- wrote:On June 20 2012 04:52 GinDo wrote:On June 20 2012 03:12 zmansman17 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 20 2012 02:39 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 02:22 dde wrote:
I seriously wonder when blizzard will take a step to solve current situation. I really strongly believe the Queen range was needed. I am also happy that this changed brought to light the fundamental issued with Terran that Blizzard has been ignoring for such a long time. Terran has a crap lategameSome of the issues of the lategame is the lack of a lategame transitions. The and lack of a decent T3 Caster. In BW TvZ lategame Terran either went SK(MM+Sci) or Mech. These were their transitions out of Bio Tank. If Terran did not effectively kill the Zerg before Hive Tech, he was forced into one or the other. Either abuse Irradiate with MM and tons of Science Vessels, or go toe to toe with the Zerg using Mech. Terran has no Transition into lategame tech in any match-up in SC2. I agree with Terran not having a viable late game, but the Queen range was too much. The overlord speed buff may have been needed, at least to some extent, but not both buffs.11/11 rax used to be a fun gamble whereupon an extremely well-executed rush could win a game if the Zerg opponent showed poor micro. Now, however, the same extremely well-executed 11/11 rush is negated with poor micro. Reactor hellion, Reaper FE, other 2 rax variants lack the same potency that they once had (which is to put it lightly). I for one used to open Reaper FE in every TvZ. The reapers allowed me to harass the Zerg, to reward my micro against queens (you could actually kill queens even against great players). This allowed you to delay injects, make them waste APM trying to deal with the harass, and tempted them to over-produce lings. Now, Zergs don't need to do ANYTHING against Reaper FE. They simply make 1 queen for each base, and maybe they even add more queens with their build. Even the principle of the threat (when you hid a reaper for later use) does not exist because it can be blindly defended. Good luck against that. The highly entertaining and fun bunker rush builds that we used to see, which in my opinion, epitomized the TvZ match up, no longer exist because they are so easily denied. Queen range permits queens to just target repairing or building SCVs, or even hit marines before they jump in bunkers. Before, defense required great drone pulls and adroit execution from the Zerg. Now, even a haphazard A move will suffice. And note that not only was the timing of Terran's bunkers nerfed (they took longer to build), but the Rax themselves were nerfed (they also took longer to build). So if Zergs were losing to 11/11 rax beforehand, there's really no excuse short of lack of practice against the build. I like your post, and you do bring alot of good points up. Watching bunker rushes was the best thing in the world. Watching Zerg and Terran duke it out in a micro battle was the best. I really hope you are not serious. Bunker rushes is the most stupid and unfun thing I seen in any RTS so far. If they are gone for good all I can say Good Riddance. Really? I love seeing micro battles, not every game but I really enjoy watching cheese.
The only time I think Cheese can be used is in matches where everyone is playing for the fun of it (if they find cheese to be fun, for instance), if it's incredibly creative, or if it's a match that's intentionally meant for epic lulz.
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On June 20 2012 06:32 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 04:59 -Archangel- wrote:On June 20 2012 04:52 GinDo wrote:On June 20 2012 03:12 zmansman17 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 20 2012 02:39 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 02:22 dde wrote:
I seriously wonder when blizzard will take a step to solve current situation. I really strongly believe the Queen range was needed. I am also happy that this changed brought to light the fundamental issued with Terran that Blizzard has been ignoring for such a long time. Terran has a crap lategameSome of the issues of the lategame is the lack of a lategame transitions. The and lack of a decent T3 Caster. In BW TvZ lategame Terran either went SK(MM+Sci) or Mech. These were their transitions out of Bio Tank. If Terran did not effectively kill the Zerg before Hive Tech, he was forced into one or the other. Either abuse Irradiate with MM and tons of Science Vessels, or go toe to toe with the Zerg using Mech. Terran has no Transition into lategame tech in any match-up in SC2. I agree with Terran not having a viable late game, but the Queen range was too much. The overlord speed buff may have been needed, at least to some extent, but not both buffs.11/11 rax used to be a fun gamble whereupon an extremely well-executed rush could win a game if the Zerg opponent showed poor micro. Now, however, the same extremely well-executed 11/11 rush is negated with poor micro. Reactor hellion, Reaper FE, other 2 rax variants lack the same potency that they once had (which is to put it lightly). I for one used to open Reaper FE in every TvZ. The reapers allowed me to harass the Zerg, to reward my micro against queens (you could actually kill queens even against great players). This allowed you to delay injects, make them waste APM trying to deal with the harass, and tempted them to over-produce lings. Now, Zergs don't need to do ANYTHING against Reaper FE. They simply make 1 queen for each base, and maybe they even add more queens with their build. Even the principle of the threat (when you hid a reaper for later use) does not exist because it can be blindly defended. Good luck against that. The highly entertaining and fun bunker rush builds that we used to see, which in my opinion, epitomized the TvZ match up, no longer exist because they are so easily denied. Queen range permits queens to just target repairing or building SCVs, or even hit marines before they jump in bunkers. Before, defense required great drone pulls and adroit execution from the Zerg. Now, even a haphazard A move will suffice. And note that not only was the timing of Terran's bunkers nerfed (they took longer to build), but the Rax themselves were nerfed (they also took longer to build). So if Zergs were losing to 11/11 rax beforehand, there's really no excuse short of lack of practice against the build. I like your post, and you do bring alot of good points up. Watching bunker rushes was the best thing in the world. Watching Zerg and Terran duke it out in a micro battle was the best. I really hope you are not serious. Bunker rushes is the most stupid and unfun thing I seen in any RTS so far. If they are gone for good all I can say Good Riddance. Losing to a Bunker Rush sucks. But that doesn't mean it's not fun to watch. I remember watching Boxer beat Yellow by Bunker Rushing 3 games in a row. EPIC! Nail-biting moments are very rare in SC2. Bunker Rushes are one of them, the other are Ling Bling Wars. Are they necessarily fun to play? No because they are stressful(Which is why Blizzard nerfed both of them, for the casuals who cried too much). But they make for great TV. I think Blizzard is catering to much to the casuals when it comes to "near-death experiences". If anything we need more of it. We need more battles that relies only on the players ability to micro. EDIT: For language clarity. Thanks MrCash.
No, bunker rushing is not exciting to watch, it is stupid beyond belief. Just like pyloning the Zerg in his base was or putting 2 bunkers at bottom ramp was just stupid. I was not excited to see MvP bunker rush Naniwa in GSL (or Squirtle).
What is exciting is seeing if that bioball is going to pass over burrowed banelings in midgame and if zerg player is going to detonate them. Or if those DT are going to come before detection. Or if toss all in is going to come before that Stim upgrade finishes.
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Check this out: The Great Terran Holocaust
The results are for large, major tournaments since the Queen patch.
In 10 different tournaments, Terrans have been only 7.5% of the top 4, 5% of the top 2 in 10, and have had 0 wins.
For those who will say Terran has been OP, please note that 8 of the 13 Terran wins at GSL and 4 of the 6 Terran wins at MLG have been from just three players: MVP, MMA, and MKP. Without them it is very likely the results would have been much more race-balanced.
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On June 20 2012 07:41 dvorakftw wrote:Check this out: The Great Terran HolocaustThe results are for large, major tournaments since the Queen patch. In 10 different tournaments, Terrans have been only 7.5% of the top 4, 5% of the top 2 in 10, and have had 0 wins. For those who will say Terran has been OP, please note that 8 of the 13 Terran wins at GSL and 4 of the 6 Terran wins at MLG have been from just three players: MVP, MMA, and MKP. Without them it is very likely the results would have been much more race-balanced.
While I agree with the holocaust (but GSL is still funny, 2 zerg 5 protoss 5 terran in ro16 atm ), the "terran wasn't OP because it's only a few terran that won" is bull****.
They won because they were good at TvT, and when it's GomTvTvTvT that makes you win the championship. Super tournament, GSL august and GSL october where great example of terran beeing everywhere.
Zerg sometimes managed to win a little bit but was never dominant as a race (before now).
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Watching TvZ on Mvp, Byun, Polt, Illusion, etc streams is actually disgusting. They are so far behind at every stage of the game right now...
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On June 20 2012 06:32 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 04:59 -Archangel- wrote:On June 20 2012 04:52 GinDo wrote:On June 20 2012 03:12 zmansman17 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 20 2012 02:39 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 02:22 dde wrote:
I seriously wonder when blizzard will take a step to solve current situation. I really strongly believe the Queen range was needed. I am also happy that this changed brought to light the fundamental issued with Terran that Blizzard has been ignoring for such a long time. Terran has a crap lategameSome of the issues of the lategame is the lack of a lategame transitions. The and lack of a decent T3 Caster. In BW TvZ lategame Terran either went SK(MM+Sci) or Mech. These were their transitions out of Bio Tank. If Terran did not effectively kill the Zerg before Hive Tech, he was forced into one or the other. Either abuse Irradiate with MM and tons of Science Vessels, or go toe to toe with the Zerg using Mech. Terran has no Transition into lategame tech in any match-up in SC2. I agree with Terran not having a viable late game, but the Queen range was too much. The overlord speed buff may have been needed, at least to some extent, but not both buffs.11/11 rax used to be a fun gamble whereupon an extremely well-executed rush could win a game if the Zerg opponent showed poor micro. Now, however, the same extremely well-executed 11/11 rush is negated with poor micro. Reactor hellion, Reaper FE, other 2 rax variants lack the same potency that they once had (which is to put it lightly). I for one used to open Reaper FE in every TvZ. The reapers allowed me to harass the Zerg, to reward my micro against queens (you could actually kill queens even against great players). This allowed you to delay injects, make them waste APM trying to deal with the harass, and tempted them to over-produce lings. Now, Zergs don't need to do ANYTHING against Reaper FE. They simply make 1 queen for each base, and maybe they even add more queens with their build. Even the principle of the threat (when you hid a reaper for later use) does not exist because it can be blindly defended. Good luck against that. The highly entertaining and fun bunker rush builds that we used to see, which in my opinion, epitomized the TvZ match up, no longer exist because they are so easily denied. Queen range permits queens to just target repairing or building SCVs, or even hit marines before they jump in bunkers. Before, defense required great drone pulls and adroit execution from the Zerg. Now, even a haphazard A move will suffice. And note that not only was the timing of Terran's bunkers nerfed (they took longer to build), but the Rax themselves were nerfed (they also took longer to build). So if Zergs were losing to 11/11 rax beforehand, there's really no excuse short of lack of practice against the build. I like your post, and you do bring alot of good points up. Watching bunker rushes was the best thing in the world. Watching Zerg and Terran duke it out in a micro battle was the best. I really hope you are not serious. Bunker rushes is the most stupid and unfun thing I seen in any RTS so far. If they are gone for good all I can say Good Riddance. Losing to a Bunker Rush sucks. But that doesn't mean it's not fun to watch. I remember watching Boxer beat Yellow by Bunker Rushing 3 games in a row. EPIC! Nail-biting moments are very rare in SC2. Bunker Rushes are one of them, the other are Ling Bling Wars. Are they necessarily fun to play? No because they are stressful(Which is why Blizzard nerfed both of them, for the casuals who cried too much). But they make for great TV. I think Blizzard is catering to much to the casuals when it comes to "near-death experiences". If anything we need more of it. We need more battles that relies only on the players ability to micro. EDIT: For language clarity. Thanks MrCash.
I miss the bunker rushes and 2 rax ;; They were a bit strong back then maybe, but now we basically never see them. I agree with both zmansman and gindo.
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So here's what I would do if I was hired to replace Dustin Browder today. I'm focusing more on design rather than balance, since I think that there are some bad design issues that cause problems with the matchups even if they are balanced. Also I'm going to include how I would incorporate HoTS units.
Problems:
Terran is a little too strong in weird low-econ games and base-races, so they can still squeak out some wins there in ways that are frustrating to play against. However, they are weaker in long games and don't really have solid late-game transitions.
Protoss relies too much on gimmicks in PvP, and although we've somehow managed to make expanding viable, it's still too volatile. Also, lategame PvZ needs some help to become more interesting.
Zerg is a little too allin-proof and can play really greedy almost all the time. Also, Broodlord-Infestor is a little too strong of a composition, especially when sitting ontop of spine crawlers ala Dimaga.
Solutions:
Terran
Buildings that are lifted off are not counted as buildings for the purposes of survival. Once landed they are once again considered buildings.
Siege Tank
- Damage increased to 50 vs all targets
Marauder
- Damaged vs armored reduced to 18, from 20
Raven
- Removed seeker missile and auto-turret
- PDD now requires research at tech lab
- Added EMP (same as on ghost)
- Added Smokecreen spell:
Range 9, 25 energy, places a small LoS blocker the size of a supply depot, lasts 10 seconds (spammable like forcefields to create larger blockers)
- Added Raven speed upgrade
Ghost
- Snipe changed to 35(+15 psionic)
- Removed EMP
- Added Lockdown (same spell as in BW)
Viking
- Redesigned
- Air form:
- Speed increased to 3
- Attack range reduced to 7
- Modified shooting animation to function similarly to banshee, micro-wise
- Ground form:
- Added Ground-to-Air attack with range 9 that functions similarly to current thor GtA, but weaker
Thor
- 250mm Strike Cannons returned to cooldown-based – 45 second cooldown
- 250mm Strike Cannons now reduce movement to 20% and are cancelled if unit moves out of range
- GtA attack splash only does 25% damage, changed to 10+6(+1)(x2) (really not sure what to do with this one. Trying to distinguish viking GtA from thor)
Warhound
- HP reduced
- removed missiles special ability
- normal attack gets +damage to mechanical
- new special ability: reactive armor (45 second cooldown)
- reduces speed to 0.5, all incoming damage is reduced to 5 (similar to hardened shields), duration 10 seconds
Widow Mine
- No longer affects air units
- Fuse time reduced to 5 seconds
- Range reduced to 5
Protoss
Warpgates
- All units produced from Warpgates cost an additional 25 minerals – does not affect gateways
Cybernetics core
- Warpgate research reduced to 120 seconds – cost increased to 100/100
- New research: Warp accelerator: cost 50/50, 60 seconds – reduces build time of gateway units by 5 seconds
Zealots
- Charge is now a manually-cast speed boost – does not have to be cast while attacking
Stalkers
- Shot delay reduced slightly
Khaydarin Amulet re-introduced – only affects High Templar produced from gateways
Oracle
- Entomb now locks down enemy workers instead of mineral patches. Workers can still be attacked while entombed. HP of entomb reduced to 20 per worker.
- Radius reduced to cover 2/3 of minerals
Carrier
- Interceptors will now continue fighting for up to 5 seconds after the carrier leaves attack range – or until carrier goes beyond range 13 – regardless of whether units are killed.
Colossus
- replaced by something more interesting – not sure what yet
Annihilator – idea for colossus replacement
cost: 300/150 supply: 6 build time: 65
armored, mechanical
speed: 2.5 (+1) range: 7
100HP, 100 Shields
Attack: 30(+2) with splash similar to archon
Cooldown: 1.5
Robotics Bay:
- New Research: Mechanical Augmentations: Increase Annihilator speed to 3.5
Zerg
Queen
- Range reduced to 4
Roach
- Roach speed removed
Hydralisk
- Hydralisk speed now available at lair tech
Infestor
- Fungal growth redesigned:
- Reduces movement speed by 50%; disables all abilities + spellcasting
- Now affects terrain rather than units – similar to psi storm – can be microed out of
- Duration increased to 6 seconds
- Damage increased to 36 (48 vs Armored)
Reasoning behind these changes:
In my opinion, Terran is in a better place design-wise when bio is more of a midgame army that lacks staying power once the other races get their lategame tech up, and mech is extremely powerful but immobile and can go toe-to-toe with anything once it's in position. Also the base-race change makes them a bit more fair without taking away a key ability or changing a standard game.
Protoss feels less gimmicky with gateways being a primary production method, while warpgates are still an option for aggressive play. The goal here is to make relying on gimmicks like forcefields a thing of the past, while also adding a few harassment options and some more micro-intensive units.
I feel as though hydras are more interesting units than roaches, and so zergs will get to use them more. Also a redesign of the infestor changes the dynamic of the zerg lategame enough to make it feel more fair.
Now, matchup by matchup and looking at the specifics:
PvT:
The warpgate changes make a lot of warpgate allins a bit weaker and more committed, while still being an option against a greedy terran. Moving EMP to the raven, and returning Khaydarin Amulet makes early HTs more reliable. Also, annihilators make robo tech require more micro against bio. This all adds up to make bio weaker in the matchup. However, the tank buff, coupled with battle hellions, a better thor, warhounds, a new raven, and vikings that are useful on the ground means that mech is massively more viable. Also, the annihilator is significantly worse against mech than the colossus was. Because of mech becoming more viable, stargate transitions should become more useable as well, meaning that the carrier should get some use. One issue I could see is the 1/1/1 becoming stronger. However, removing the necessity of researching warpgate means that hallucination scouting will become much more common, allowing Protoss players to scout exactly what the opponent is doing much more easily, and even being able to go with a robo-less build if they don't think cloak banshees are coming, which would allow a lot more potential defense strategies.
ZvP:
Once again, warpgate aggression will be more committed but weaker. However, removing roach speed should make the 12-minute max roach infinitely easier to deal with. Removing colossi and adding hydralisk speed would make a ling-hydra style much more useful, meaning that HT play will be much more viable. Having more harassment options means that Protoss will be able to stop the zerg from droning too crazily early on, with Oracle harass couple with warp prism warpins able to clean up workers much more easily. Annihilator drops are another new option. Finally, the infestor redesign means that the zerg lategame army won't be quite as scary, but once again the lack of colossus means that zerg isn't as required to transition to broodlord infestor and can likely hold their own with ling-hydra-infestor and use more ultralisk play.
TvZ:
Reducing the queen range to 4 should find a middle ground as far as zerg being greedy against early terran allins. The big difference, however, is that terran won't be nearly as hopeless in the lategame, as mech becomes a much more viable composition, while infestors won't make broodlords nearly as invulnerable against the new vikings. Also, widow mines should help terrans defend against zerg allins, allowing them to play greedy as well so they can get their mech army up on a close to equal economy. Ravens having EMP will make it much easier to deal with infestors.
TvT:
Tanks being stronger obviously makes mech a much better option. However, there are also some good options to break tank lines. Ravens' smokescreen can allow units to move within tank range without getting shot, Warhounds' reactive armor allows them to absorb tank shots, but slows them down enough to allow tanks to freely run away and reposition, and Ghosts' lockdown lets you isolate some tanks and clean them up if the enemy retreats. The transition to sky-terran is drastically changed, as ground vikings can now shoot down air vikings, so ground superiority will eventually translate to air superiority. Tough to say whether this matchup is really any better or worse.
ZvZ:
The lack of roach speed and the infestor changes mean that the midgame will be drastically different. Roach attacks in the midgame will be much easier to scout and deal with. Hydras will become a much better option as they offer solid mobility while still being able to take fights. Roaches will be more of a temporary unit used to defend while in transition. I can see mutas being used much less since hydras will become more common. Ling-infestor midgames should still be pretty good, and we might even see more baneling play due to hydras. Should shake things up a little bit, but again I'm not sure what the effects would be.
PvP:
Here's where a lot of positive change would happen. Warpgate changes mean that there's a defender's advantage, leading to a lot safer expansions. Coupled with mothership core, we should start to see lategame PvP. Removing the colossus and replacing it with the Annihilator will drastically improve the midgame. In the current state of the game, every build that doesn't get to colossi right away is on a timer to do damage before the opponent gets a critical mass and can just a-move through anything. The annihilator won't have that effect, so we'll see way more chargelot archon, stargate play, immortal drops, etc. It should become all-around a more fun to watch and fun to play matchup.
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EPT
