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On June 20 2012 02:10 -Archangel- wrote:
Lol. 20 min game is super super late. And I really don't know any good Zerg users that consistently build 15 infestors before making the broodlord army. It is always the other way around.
Ah hell no Infestors is allways first out maybe not 20 but at least 8-10 . I mean Zergs try to spend the least amount Gas before
reaching their later tech anyway so they will have a decent amount of banked gas when reaching infestor tech.
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I seriously wonder when blizzard will take a step to solve current situation.
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On June 19 2012 22:57 -Archangel- wrote:
BTW, to people whining about TvZ: The problem will be fixed once terrans start using Ghosts again to emp/snipe infestors/queens. Broodlord/infestor/queen/corrupter army does not work if infestors/queens have no energy.
With ghost snipe nerf T stopped using them for EMP as well which was stupid
Issue with the Ghost is that Zerg gets such a strong economy that you are simply over flowed with mass infestors + Support. Terran can invest in Ghost. But in order to produce enough ghosts early on, to deal with the number of infestors, Terran has to significantly sacrifice the number of Tanks Medics and Marines they have. Remember Terran is a mineral starved race, and Ghosts are 200m 100g.
The only alternative is to turtle, until Terran has enough Ghosts Tanks Medics Vikings and Marines, but because of the weak Terran lategame, we lose.
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On June 20 2012 02:22 dde wrote:
I seriously wonder when blizzard will take a step to solve current situation.
According to Browder, the "stats' they're seeing" are very even, so I'm guessing never. They'll just leave the game as is and wait for HotS release to fix the problem by introducing tons of more gamebreaking stuff.
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On June 20 2012 02:22 dde wrote:
I seriously wonder when blizzard will take a step to solve current situation.
I really strongly believe the Queen range was needed. I am also happy that this changed brought to light the fundamental issued with Terran that Blizzard has been ignoring for such a long time.
Terran has a crap lategame
Some of the issues of the lategame is the lack of a lategame transitions. The and lack of a decent T3 Caster.
In BW TvZ lategame Terran either went SK(MM+Sci) or Mech. These were their transitions out of Bio Tank. If Terran did not effectively kill the Zerg before Hive Tech, he was forced into one or the other. Either abuse Irradiate with MM and tons of Science Vessels, or go toe to toe with the Zerg using Mech.
Terran has no Transition into lategame tech in any match-up in SC2.
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I'd suggest a nerf to the speed of creepspread. It seems Zergs can cover the whole map with creep a little bit to fast.
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On June 19 2012 13:15 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 05:48 HeroMystic wrote:On June 19 2012 04:37 ZenithM wrote:On June 19 2012 04:34 monkybone wrote:On June 18 2012 12:47 sGs.Stregon wrote:
Supply before Barracks
Barracks build time increased
Reaper nerfed
Battlecruiser nerfed
Thor nerfed
Ghost nerfed ((emp and snipe))
Siege Tank nerfed
Blue Flame nerfed
Viking nerfed
Bunker build time increased
**note I might have missed something, but im not sure**
((on top of the other two races recieving buffs in some aspect to help counter said nerfed units^))
But hey, at Least Terran has Marines+stim right? apperantly Marine+stim is equal to or greater than the most rounded out list of units to choose to build from. I dont see what all the hub-bub is about. Zerg is strong in all aspects of the game, Protoss is strong late game, Terran has Marines+stim, that they have to do damage with early game ((in the form of an all-in)) to stand a chance later in the game ((by winning with their initial all-in)). Sounds like some legit balancing too me. This list of nerfs is irrelevant. Just because there are more than for Protoss and Zerg doesn't mean they weren't all warranted. That's faulty logic. What matters is the state of the game now, and how the last nerf was too severe. This is true. Moreover, some of these nerfs (siege tank) happened in beta, which makes them even less relevant. Remember that Roaches were 1 supply and had 2 armor and monstrous regen back then :D Siege Tank was nerfed shortly after retail (50 damage to 35 +15 vs Armored). Just sayin'. My bad, thought this one was from beta. Kinda ridiculous from Blizzard to have let it go in the final build like that :D So all these changes were indeed post release, again, my bad, sorry 
This is from a few pages back, but I didn't mean to make you look dumb. The 'just sayin'' was me adding a bit of flavor to my post. No need to apologize :D .
Also Siege Tank was nerfed in beta too (60 dmg to 50), and I believe the Viking nerf was also in beta.
On June 20 2012 02:39 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 02:22 dde wrote:
I seriously wonder when blizzard will take a step to solve current situation. I really strongly believe the Queen range was needed. I am also happy that this changed brought to light the fundamental issued with Terran that Blizzard has been ignoring for such a long time. Terran has a crap lategameSome of the issues of the lategame is the lack of a lategame transitions. The and lack of a decent T3 Caster. In BW TvZ lategame Terran either went SK(MM+Sci) or Mech. These were their transitions out of Bio Tank. If Terran did not effectively kill the Zerg before Hive Tech, he was forced into one or the other. Either abuse Irradiate with MM and tons of Science Vessels, or go toe to toe with the Zerg using Mech. Terran has no Transition into lategame tech in any match-up in SC2.
^100% Agree.
It's why I prefer the Raven to be buffed rather than nerfing Zerg. Fixing Ghost would be nice too, but most definitely the Raven needs some love.
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On June 20 2012 01:23 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 01:02 -Archangel- wrote:On June 19 2012 23:58 Tryagain4free wrote:
On June 19 2012 22:57 -Archangel- wrote:
i]Now I am still waiting for Terrans to start using few ghosts for emp again.
You are targeting the exact problem. A few ghosts will not cut it against 10 - 15 infestors lategame. The investment in tech, upgrades, time (energy) and micro don't break even, if you only manage to EMP a few of the infestors. Every good zerg player will protect his valuable infestors by detection and Broodlords. So it's very unlikely to kill or EMP all/most of the infestors, or even get a somewhat favourable trade.
And please keep in mind, post-patch ghosts are weak against every other zerg unit. By going ghost tech route, you may very well risk to fall short in vital macro aspects like viking count etc.
So in short: You are right that EMP is a hardcounter to infestor, but post patch the investment in ghost is not worth it, for the reasons I tried to list. More competent people could have explained this topic better, but i hope you get the idea.
10-15 infestors is a huge gas investment and will not happen until super super late game (in addition to broodlords/corruptors). Terrans just need to figure out a good ratio of ghosts vs infestors. I am sure soon someone will figure it out and they you will all go Ahhh. Probably IMMvP And to whoever said zergs always have detection, it is not true. At least not in form of Overseers, fungals are a much more dangerous detection against cloaked ghosts. And how do you reach Infestors with your Ghosts without them dieing ? Once they're in Broodlord sight they're dead .
vikings will help keep broodlords at bay w their awesome range. the infestors will need to come in to fungal the vikings and then the ghosts come in for emp or tanks just pummel the infestors, especially if it is from a defensive position. with even supplies and armies attacking into each other, the engagement should come out relatively even in viking marine tank ghost vs blord corruptor infestor queen (if zerg attacks into T, T has the advantage). its just that the terran army is harder to control and the zerg is better at remaxing. also with the new queen buffs, it is possible that the zerg will be up in econ. so they will be up in supply when sieging T.
pre-queen buff, the zerg was never ahead in econ unless the terran made a huge mistake so the zerg was always forced into sieging the terrans base on even supply which is horrible due to viking range > corruptor/blords, tank > infestors, planetary > all else. then as zerg sieges, T send a few dropships around and kill everything. this is why pre-queen buff, korean Ts were beating Zs consistently (not destroying though). now with the queen buff, the roles have reversed except terrans are getting destroyed. with some more adaptation, it is possible that the mu might turn into just slightly zerg favored just how it was slightly terran favored before (on highest levels that is).
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On June 20 2012 02:40 CruelZeratul wrote:
I'd suggest a nerf to the speed of creepspread. It seems Zergs can cover the whole map with creep a little bit to fast.
Creep doesn't need a nerf, Zergs just make more queens because of the range buff so there are more tumors on the map.
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It takes so much work to get all that creep out there, then the Terrans and Protoss just go through and take it all out as they march to your base. >.<
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On June 20 2012 02:40 CruelZeratul wrote:
I'd suggest a nerf to the speed of creepspread. It seems Zergs can cover the whole map with creep a little bit to fast.
Easiest fix to that is to limit the creep spread rate to 1 tumor only instead of stacking 6-8 and having it spread instantly almost.
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Hm, blizz nerfed ghosts to the ground and now ppl r telling me to use it. I don't get it.
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There is already a CD on the tumors themselves though, which ends up having diminishing returns if you lay too many tumors to spread one direction.
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I think Thor ground attack should have splash damage. This will give terran a mobile T3 unit that can act as the core of its late game death ball kinda like Colossus with Toss and Broodlords with Zerg.
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On June 20 2012 02:39 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 02:22 dde wrote:
I seriously wonder when blizzard will take a step to solve current situation. I really strongly believe the Queen range was needed. I am also happy that this changed brought to light the fundamental issued with Terran that Blizzard has been ignoring for such a long time. Terran has a crap lategameSome of the issues of the lategame is the lack of a lategame transitions. The and lack of a decent T3 Caster. In BW TvZ lategame Terran either went SK(MM+Sci) or Mech. These were their transitions out of Bio Tank. If Terran did not effectively kill the Zerg before Hive Tech, he was forced into one or the other. Either abuse Irradiate with MM and tons of Science Vessels, or go toe to toe with the Zerg using Mech. Terran has no Transition into lategame tech in any match-up in SC2.
I agree with Terran not having a viable late game, but the Queen range was too much. The overlord speed buff may have been needed, at least to some extent, but not both buffs.
11/11 rax used to be a fun gamble whereupon an extremely well-executed rush could win a game if the Zerg opponent showed poor micro. Now, however, the same extremely well-executed 11/11 rush is negated with poor micro. Reactor hellion, Reaper FE, other 2 rax variants lack the same potency that they once had (which is to put it lightly).
I for one used to open Reaper FE in every TvZ. The reapers allowed me to harass the Zerg, to reward my micro against queens (you could actually kill queens even against great players). This allowed you to delay injects, make them waste APM trying to deal with the harass, and tempted them to over-produce lings.
Now, Zergs don't need to do ANYTHING against Reaper FE. They simply make 1 queen for each base, and maybe they even add more queens with their build. Even the principle of the threat (when you hid a reaper for later use) does not exist because it can be blindly defended. Good luck against that.
The highly entertaining and fun bunker rush builds that we used to see, which in my opinion, epitomized the TvZ match up, no longer exist because they are so easily denied. Queen range permits queens to just target repairing or building SCVs, or even hit marines before they jump in bunkers.
Before, defense required great drone pulls and adroit execution from the Zerg. Now, even a haphazard A move will suffice.
And note that not only was the timing of Terran's bunkers nerfed (they took longer to build), but the Rax themselves were nerfed (they also took longer to build).
So if Zergs were losing to 11/11 rax beforehand, there's really no excuse short of lack of practice against the build.
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I have to agree with Gindo that the current resource distribution of terran is shitty. Terran in the current meta game has insane amount of gas going into the late game and in BW, terran counter this by making science vessels. People been suggesting going Raven late game but raven are just so stupidly bad even with the stupid HSM buff no one going to use raven. I think Artosis keep saying that terran are going to have to make raven eventually at MLG during MKP vs Stepheno or something. I want to believe him but from my own experience.....raven are generally bad. He also said the same thing about terran eventually having to use Raven in TvP and that mech was the future of TvP so I guess I cant really take him seriously no more
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On June 20 2012 03:07 RUS RO DAH!!! wrote:
I think Thor ground attack should have splash damage. This will give terran a mobile T3 unit that can act as the core of its late game death ball kinda like Colossus with Toss and Broodlords with Zerg.
I don't agree. They're so much more tanky than Colo or Broods. Heavy Thor timing attacks are already really hard to hold off even if you know they're coming because they hit before Broods and demolish everything else besides Roaches. And they still do very well vs Roaches. (As Zerg vs Thors)
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On June 20 2012 02:39 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 02:22 dde wrote:
I seriously wonder when blizzard will take a step to solve current situation. I really strongly believe the Queen range was needed. I am also happy that this changed brought to light the fundamental issued with Terran that Blizzard has been ignoring for such a long time. Terran has a crap lategameSome of the issues of the lategame is the lack of a lategame transitions. The and lack of a decent T3 Caster. In BW TvZ lategame Terran either went SK(MM+Sci) or Mech. These were their transitions out of Bio Tank. If Terran did not effectively kill the Zerg before Hive Tech, he was forced into one or the other. Either abuse Irradiate with MM and tons of Science Vessels, or go toe to toe with the Zerg using Mech. Terran has no Transition into lategame tech in any match-up in SC2.
There are lategame transitions in TvT. 
I don't think the problems in TvZ and TvP are similar, personally. I think that Terran unit compositions trade fairly well with Zerg in the lategame, but the Zerg's superior economy allow them to pull ahead over the course of the game. Everything else aside, TvZ before the Queen buff was just better, more fun to watch and play, so buffing Ghosts again so we can see both Terran and Zerg take 3 bases, tech to their ultimate unit composition, and then clash in the middle of the map, would be a mistake. That's how PvZ is, and it's pretty bad.
The lack of lategame transitions is a problem in TvP presumably, and I'm in favor of buffing Thors, BCs and Ravens, just to see if it would change anything. However, Terran in SC2 seems very intentionally designed around Bio, where the Marine is meant to be the basic answer to everything. It's not coincidence that Protoss need their expensive tech just to not lose to Marines and Medivacs. As long as something like that is in the game, I doubt Terrans will be allowed to transition to a playstyle that doesn't involve Marines somehow. It's kind of the reverse Protoss problem, where the relative crappiness of gateway units mandates the power of Colossi and HTs; except for Terran, the power of Marines mandates the shittiness of BCs and Ravens.
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On June 19 2012 22:57 -Archangel- wrote:
BTW, to people whining about TvZ: The problem will be fixed once terrans start using Ghosts again to emp/snipe infestors/queens. Broodlord/infestor/queen/corrupter army does not work if infestors/queens have no energy.
With ghost snipe nerf T stopped using them for EMP as well which was stupid
Ghosts are too big of an investment to only counter infestors/queens. Ghosts also get stuck if zerg has an adequate amount lings, then they just die. Infestors can also NP the ghosts and use them to emp each other. Even if ghosts can snipe infestors and queens, the amount of supply needed to trade effectively with the infestors means that terran is at a army disadvantage because ghosts are virtually useless against anything else right now.
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Btw, do you notice one fun thing? Terran doesn't have any lategame threats apart from standard bio. The Ghost is now also one more narrow counter unit. Such great game design, gotta admire it.
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EPT
