Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 240

On June 20 2012 04:30 Jasiwel wrote:
I have a good number of ideas about balance for SCII, but currently there's one I'm finding very difficult to find agreeable in terms of plausibility and diversity:

Stim

Stim is the reason why the M/M/M combo works and it's the reason why most all Terrans in nearly every league go Bio. Now what I'm saying isn't for the sake of helping Toss or Zerg necessarily win easier against Terran. I'm expressing my distaste for it because I feel it really makes the Terran race incredibly bland and linear, almost as much as most of the current Protoss builds out there. The real tragedy is that Terran is utterly dependent, or worse if it's acting like it's utterly dependent, on an almost gamebreaking strategy like the M/M/M or M/M/M/S.

I honestly think some point in a future expansion (maybe the Legacy of the Void) that Stim should be changed to promote Terran to find better, more innovative ways (like the race is supposed to) in defeating opponents. That's just two cents though. I simply find it to be bland and exploitable game design when units that are counted as Tier 1 and are also among the most cost effective units in the game are devastating every other Tier as a result of an ability that is easily compensated by other units.

On June 20 2012 12:59 ETisME wrote:

HTs, infestors and Ghosts should not be considered together just because they are spell casters.
They serve a very different role.

EMP nerf was to deal with HTs in TvP mostly due to how easy it was for terran to EMP and single handed melt the toss army within seconds. This was also to help the toss to have a better time at the "dancing".
Snipe nerf imo, was a better change than the EMP. The snipes were way too cost efficient against any units. The GSL match of MKP and symbol really shows how cost inefficient a zerg has to be at breaking a turtling terran, nydus, drop, broodlords, ultras etc.

HTs nerf was extremely needed, I couldn't see any reason not to have that energy upgrade removed. Protoss remax already is proven to be troublesome, now imagine the HTs remaxed have enough energy for a storm.

Infestors did get nerfed, fungal damage and np's range both got nerfed, its movement speed got nerfed. Is it too powerful imo? Yes, but even so, we don't have any lair tech unit available, muta is phased out almost completely in ZvT, and infestors nerf in ZvP killed the ling infestors and made it back to mass roach style.

I normally would associate infestors to sentries, prevent micro: check. Serves multiple purposes (both offensive and defensive): check. can mix into any standard unit composition: check
'but forcefields don't do damage'- think about how much more damage toss army can deal in comparison to a zerg's, especially when zerg's army got forcefielded and cutting off reinforcement. Now add guardian shield and chokepoints and splash damage from colossus/HTs.

I reckon infestors could use a nerf if only a new lair tech unit is available or a new lair tech upgrade that is not gimmicky like burrow roach movement. Then the zerg will have an option to prolong midgame and delay hive tech

On June 20 2012 13:09 s3rp wrote:


And now its only effective against Caster Units wich the Ghost was already very good against making the Ghost a pure Anti-Caster which sucks because everything but beyond midgame Terran has is pure counter or is bad as hell. If you have to rely on counter units to stand a chance they should be really hardcounter something . I mean like 1 hit Infestors with Snipe so even IF you lose the Ghost you trade 1 for 1.

On June 20 2012 13:18 ETisME wrote:

it is still an anti caster. It is even more of an anti caster than before purely because they don't go stock up energy for sniping everything and has a stronger presence against casters because snipe does more damage to them.

Like you said, ghost is now only effective against casters, not a good units in other areas, which makes it perfectly OK to lose a ghost for an infestors when infestors are the crucial part of the zerg army. or HTs/sentries/archons of the Toss army

I mean did you really think it was balanced when :
terran stock up 10 ghosts and turtle up in a split map situation with PFs all around and the ghosts can kill off every broodlords with no cost other than energy and broodlords were the only way to break that split map situation?
Or when Terran could get 6 ghosts+ just to land one or two good emps and kill off everything that the toss has?

On June 20 2012 13:40 s3rp wrote:


Infestors are very very hard to catch . They hide behind the army while Broodlords bait you out. If you move your Ghosts forward Broodlords will shoot them then your own tanks will finish them because unless you unsiege and basically tell the Zerg to run in and kill you tanks will allways shoot and kill your own stuff. If tanks had an option to tell them to completely stop shooting at anything ( like the Ghosts have ) this wouldn't be much of a problem.

Why exactly do split map situations have to be broken head-on ? Somebody fortifies a position don't fucking attack it. This is what should lose you games. In PvZ running in the Spine, BL, Infestor wall will also lose you the game . Or running into a siege line in TvT etc.

On June 20 2012 13:40 s3rp wrote:


Infestors are very very hard to catch . They hide behind the army while Broodlords bait you out. If you move your Ghosts forward Broodlords will shoot them then your own tanks will finish them because unless you unsiege and basically tell the Zerg to run in and kill you tanks will allways shoot and kill your own stuff. If tanks had an option to tell them to completely stop shooting at anything ( like the Ghosts have ) this wouldn't be much of a problem.

Why exactly do split map situations have to be broken head-on ? Somebody fortifies a position don't fucking attack it. This is what should lose you games. In PvZ running in the Spine, BL, Infestor wall will also lose you the game . Or running into a siege line in TvT etc.

On June 20 2012 15:12 Grimmyman123 wrote:
I have a few solutions for balance in the game, which I think will do the trick.

Protoss
Sentry
Speed increase to same as zealot
Force Field Spell reduced to 10 seconds in duration
Kidarin amulet returns - only allows +50 energy to templar energy bank, no extra starting energy.

Zerg
Broodlord speed increase by 5% or 10%
Broodlings cost 10 minerals, or respawn cooldown is 50% slower
Infestor - all spells are researchable OR infested terrans and fungal growth are 25 more energy requirement to cast
Infestor energy has 50 energy increase to max limit with upgrade (+100 energy total) Unit does not spawn with extra energy similar to high templar.
Fungal growth cannot trap massive units, but still does damage to effected units.

Terran
Marauder decrease rate of fire 5%, increase range by 5%
Viking ground mode damage increase by 10%

The reasoning for the changes is as follows
In early game protoss has little chance of a successful early push without losing all sentries, which are critical in PvT. Speed increase allows retreat. Force Field nerf prevents chain ramp forcefields in PvZ, a game ending tactic.
This should even out the early to mid game to a degree, where protoss is weakest in certain ways.

Zerg is rushing to get infestors, and is 3 base play rushing to get broodlords. Free units, free damage, outside of the cost of the casting unit. Broodlords are too slow (similar to problem with sentries) and are not able to retreat as easily. Cost to broodlings, and additional cost to infested terrans or funal growth balance late game ZvT and ZvP, which is one sided to favour zerg. Terran has little to no answer to never ended chain fungals, nor does protoss, and massive units are affected by fungal, and in turn can be chained. Protoss answer is either a late game switch to poor air units, but they would be massively imbalanced if buffed, and a broodlord infestor army is only soft countered by Mothership/archon/stalker composition - effectively using an exploit in the game to create balance (archon toilet, which has already been nerfed partially). I feel that zerg should be about mass units, but it should not be about mass free units. Those army units should cost something or be dodgeable.
Terran uses mass marauder in late game TvP, and scoots and shoots to the end of time. For a larger infantry unit, but with its ability, I feel a buff/nerf will encourage larger epic fights, instead of endless micro one sided battles.

- There is indeed an issue with sentries FF'ing zerg out of their main, however in reverse it's that same mechanic that allows sentries to FF everything out of their own main. In pro play you don't see it as much, but continued FF'ing on the ramp is still the common response to holding opposing 1 base plays. Maps may be bigger, but sentries still save Protoss early game more than they destroy zerg.

- BL speed means nothing imo. Slow moving death ships works nicely as a design mechanic. Can't just make every unit fast and hope that makes it alright (looks pointedly at hydra).

- Broodlings can't cost money. That won't work. It's a silly carrier mechanic imo anyway. And slower spawn? Ehh I have to say I have no issues with BLs. They can't shoot up (or...straight?) and they are the zerg capital ship after all. It's ok that they're strong.

- You can't have ALL infestor spells researchable. What does it do otherwise? Costing more energy is hard to fathom imo, because that has actually enormous implications for all MUs.

- Not working on massive units though is nice for fungal. And as I've said, I like the ideas some people have mentioned that fungal simply slows movement speed.

- Marauder buff? Errrr, stimmed marauders are already powerful enough and then some. There's no issue whatsoever with their strength. 5% range also doesn't help, it needs to be a rounded number I believe.

- Viking already ok on the ground I think. It's not meant to be there normally, but can do some light harass or tank damage if required.

So in short: I don't like most of your suggestions, haha, sorry. You're mostly looking in to the right issues with your ideas, but a lot of the proposed options have adverse repercussions in a lot of instances.

On June 20 2012 15:51 Bagi wrote:
Making vikings a viable unit on the ground could do wonders to terran lategame actually.

Its so easy to overmake vikings against either BL or colossi, and end up with them being mostly useless when your opponent switches to ultra or templar heavy armies.

On June 20 2012 15:41 Grimmyman123 wrote:
But, zerg army's right now in the late game are massively about mineral units like lings or cheap on gas light roaches, with infestors and BL to make up a largely free fighting army, with the tech behind casting it. As such, it is very difficult for "Terran or Protoss to kill the actual units responsible for casting the free army unit.

Why not. All other races have researchable abilities. the emphasis is to prevent rushing on 2 or 3 bases to get out infestors to exploit fungal or 4 infestor hit squadding with infested terrans as fast as possible. The infestor is a support unit, not supposed to make up the army core.

hahaha, sorry, I don't think just dismissing every/any idea is a helpful post. adding, or modifying the ideas would be though.

On June 20 2012 16:51 sCCrooked wrote:

I think its starting to become clear its your understanding of the game that is a bit simplistic and has caused these sorts of ideas to appear as "all-fixing". What you proposed to the infestor would in fact break all Zerg matchups.

On June 20 2012 18:07 sGs.Stregon wrote:


i dont think your understanding of the game is anything more than simplistic, and zerg biased.. If anything, infestor should only start with Infested Marines, and have to research fungal growth. Or vise versa.. But why should it get to start with 2 abilities, when the other 2 race's caster's only starts with 1?? The answer, there is no reason the infestor should be able too. And I highly doubt forcing one of the infestors abilities to be upgraded would break any of zergs match ups..

**edit: and I like how you say balancing out the infestor would break the zerg match ups, but you probley say the overlord speed buff and queen range buff ((which has broken ZvT is Zergs favor)) was a blanced patch with no negative effects, and Terran should just learn to play different**

On June 20 2012 18:29 scFoX wrote:


This isn't true. High Templars start with Feedback and Form Archons. Ghosts start with Snipe and EMP. Say what you want about these abilities, they are used frequently, even in high-level play. All three casters have an additional ability they can research: Storm, Cloaking and Neural Parasite.

For the record, other casters follow the same pattern concerning known and researchable spells. Ravens know Auto-Turrets, PDD and can learn HSM. Sentries know FF, Guardian Shield and can learn Hallucination. The only caster in the game that knows all three spells from the start is the Queen (and the Mothership technically, even though it only has two spells)

On June 20 2012 20:13 ysnake wrote:
This thread turned into silly QQ.

As said by many players, Terran will just have to find a new way to deal with Zerg's only producing Drones (we saw the rise of 2rax pressure in TvZ), which forces the Zerg to make Zerglings/Banelings/Roaches. Hellions are still a cheap way to get an early advantage that a Zerg can barely make out of if Terran follows his damage done accordingly.

Brood Lords are fine the way they are. They do not need to cost additional minerals, they already cost a whole lot. Most Zergs actually don't go Hive tech unless they are 4+ base (rushing to Hive) or 5+ base standard play. Because, from mid-game onward, Zerg's units are really gas heavy.

Maybe it would be a good idea to boost Vikings a little bit, but 3/3 drops already do ridiculous amount of damage that such buff to drops are not really worth it. If you manage to kill Brood Lords/Colossi/Mothership with your Vikings, you already did the damage you needed with them. I've seen Terran players having 3/0 Vikings and clearing my mineral lines with ease. Drop down 8-10 Vikings and Drones should be gone, along with the Queen(s).

Marauder change is unneccessary, they are good units already and do not to be buffed or nerfed. They can be annoying because they are a T+a-move unit, but Terran already has so much micro at their hands, that they do not need more micro added to them, I wish people would stop throwing out ideas that require additional sick micro/apm to utilize a unit. Sure, in the hands of a pro player, but it is not that easy to do. Micro-management should be rewarding, but to nurture micro-management in order to say "yeah, you see, Terran is good now", that's not the way to go for Diamond/Masters (although, Diamond players only cheese anyhow). Micro should be added as a bonus, not as a way of saying "if you don't have 500 APM, you can't play that race". For example, Terran micro feels so rewarding, Protoss micro feels almost as if it is backfiring at you and Zerg micro actually relies on other people making mistakes.

As previously said, all casters come with 2 abilities upon "arrival", and a third one can be researched. Force Fields can be godannoying, especially with the rise of Immortal/Sentry allin strategies, but if you manage to snipe or engage them before they are at your third, you have the upper hand.

MULEs do not be added to supply and responses like "Can we have larva cost supply?" is really for kids who are arguing at school saying "my dad can beat up your dad".