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On November 09 2011 14:08 aZealot wrote:
This hate towards WG needs to cease, it's not the core of the problem and never was. If Protoss does have a problem it is reducible, at least in WOL, to two things:
1. Lack of splash early enough.
2. The Stalker (and this is due to blink not WG).
The fact of the matter is that SC2 is littered with a sort of upgrade dance between units that also deny abilities, and macro mechanics that make the game inherently difficult to balance and unstable. However, I do believe that Protoss drew the short straw in this respect when it came to the game design. I doubt that HOTS will fix it.
1. Early splash is featured in no race. Zerg can get Banelings early, but they're only ever used for breaking down buildings. They only start being used for splash damage late. Hellions are similarly only used for worker harass and slightly for Zergling control. The only early splash damage in Broodwar was the Firebat, and that was never used. This clearly isn't the issue.
2. The Stalker is so weak because of the Warp Gate, and not so much Blink. Dragoon timings were incredibly strong in BW, and they would be even better in SC2 if the rally time was removed entirely.
To put it simply, Warp Gate makes any early pressure by Protoss innately stronger than the Zerg or Terran equivalent because it removes the defender's advantage. Defender's advantage is usually that the defender can have a bigger army because their units don't have to walk across the map. However, the Warp Gate removes this. So in order to make these early pressure builds non-lethal, Zerg and Terran need to be given the advantage in terms of their units (or defensive structures, but really good defensive structures tend to make the game stagnate). This means that the Zealot and Stalker are relatively weak compared to the Marine, Marauder, Zergling, and Roach. The side effects of this are that defenses by Protoss are much weaker, because their units are weaker, and that in the mid to late game Protoss is very much weaker in terms of their army. If Warp Gate were deferred to Templar tech, it would prevent any kind of one-base Warp Gate play and significantly neuter two-base Warp Gate play. In turn, this means that Protoss units can be buffed, and the game can be more even rather than being a competition to see whose all-in is better.
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I disagree. By splash for Protoss, I do mean at a similar time as for Zerg (Banelings) and Terran (Siege Tanks and Hellion; which should really be used more by Terran unit compositions, but the Warhound should resolve that). This is the crux of the problem for PvT (in the case of the 1-1-1 or for any bio, especially marine heavy, compositions). It's also the same issue which keeps so many Protoss pinned in their bases vs Zerg - it's also the reason why the Sentry is a requirement for Protoss armies. As we all know, it allows splitting enemy forces into manageable chunks and thus reducing DPS. It's not a unit that is there to support weak Gateway units, because if so, why not make Gateway units stronger and get rid of the Sentry?
The Marine and the Marauder are strong units but the Zealot is strong, and early game the Stalker is stronger (this is not taking into account things like micro in terms of kiting etc). Where the Stalker is concerned, it only becomes useless once the Blizzard upgrade dance begins, and Conc shell comes into play or Speedlings. (By upgrade dance I mean Browder's core design aspect in SC2 which he talks about in his Games Development presentation; there's a thread on it.) IIRC, the Zealot kills more lings in SC2 than in BW although you do have a point with regard to the Roach. For cost, it's probably the tankiest unit in the game, but even then Stalkers fare OK against it early, but do need blink later in the game to come out ahead (again; see the face-off between upgrades which is hardwired into this game).
Buffing Gate units would actually unbalance the game even more. Sure, you can push WG back to Templar archives and buff Gateway units but then end-game Protoss armies would be even stronger as you would have to buff Gateway units considerably for them to hold off early (for example) Rax aggression without the use of Sentries and the faster unit production that WG provides. Gateway units that strong produced out of WG in the late game would be OP.
Believe me, I used to think it was the WG too, but I don't think so anymore. The issue is the specific macro-mechanics with which Blizzard has designed the game. Therefore, larva injects and reactored units (i.e. the unit producting ability they provide) vs WG mechanics and how these trade-off versus each other in the game along with unit upgrades and their characteristics. I don't believe Gateway units are weak, all of the units coming out of the Gateway are strong and useful - with the exception of the Stalker. That unit is, except for a few scenarios, just an overall bad unit for what it is intended to be.
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Let me pick this apart bit by bit. First, there is a reason Zerg never gets Banelings early (barring busts) and that Terran only gets Hellions for harass and Siege Tanks for the 1-1-1. Splash is simply not needed in this stage of the game. The Hellion is chosen because it is fast, can be repaired, and is good against workers. Good for map control. The Siege Tank is usually used by the 1-1-1 for its incredible range and single-target damage, which makes it excellent for destroying Stalkers. By the time a player has need for splash, the Protoss has access to Colossi.
The Sentry is a blessing and a curse. It's a blessing because it's absolutely fantastic, and a curse because Blizzard has balanced the game around good Forcefields. Protoss units are balanced taking into account both that there will be no rally time to the enemy base and that they will only be fighting part of the enemy army. There is a reason the Stalker is arguably the least cost-effective unit in the game. The main reason the Sentry remains in the game is because it is an interesting unit that allows Protoss to defend the 4gate.
Concussive Shells come into play incredibly early. The only time where Stalkers are able to go toe-to-toe with Bio and come out on top is against a gasless FE, where they're only poking Marines. Zergling Speed is another big thing, and it usually appears very early as well. After this one point in the game, Stalkers are almost never cost effective. When they are, it's as the sole result of great Blink micro from the Protoss compared to a complete lack of micro from the other player. You are correct in saying that Zealots are better against Zerglings in isolation, but fail to consider that Zerg is both able to produce far more Zerglings and that these Zerglings have a far better AI.
Gateway units would be much better late game. On this I agree. But the problem with this is more of an issue with the deathball in general. Put simply, there isn't enough punishment for deathballs available in ANY race. In Broodwar, we have the absolutely fantastic Storm, Plague, Irradiate, Siege Tanks, Lurkers, Reavers... the list goes on. All of these aspects punish players for balling things up and reward the management of an army over a much wider map area. In SC2, we have the low-damage Fungal which is better for trapping small groups of units, the pretty awful modern Storm that is dodged just by running back, EMP (I'll admit this does its job brilliantly), and the Colossus, which REWARDS the Colossus user for clumping things up! This lack of punishment for the one control group army is what makes deathballs viable.
Maybe you're right. But I can say with some confidence that Protoss will never be able to apply simple early pressure without an all-in as long as Warp Gate is at Cyber tech.
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I think you may be confusing my comments regarding Terran and Zerg splash vs Protoss, but I meant their use versus each other which Protoss does not have to a similar degree at similar points in the game. After all Hellions are very effective vs mass Lings while Banelings are lethal against Marines. Protoss, instead, is dependent on FF and GS for these types of engagements. And yes, you are absolutely correct in that Zerg is able to produce more Zerglings, but this is my point. It's the racial mechanics of the races that is the problem and how they trade-off against each other for which Protoss may have no sufficiently strong counter. Take the example of mass Muta which is ridiculously difficult for Protoss to deal with - Blizzard has sort of, and in the wrong way I might add, decided to fix it by a new unit which does considerable splash. It's the same issue with Zerg ground armies - Protoss lack a unit that is able to do splash damage until Colossus/Templar, and can't usually exert map control on the ground until these units are out. It's the same problem versus marine heavy compositions as their DPS and their production (out of reactored barracks supplemented by reactored medivacs) shred Gateway heavy compositions unless FF and GS is used extremely well and/or some sort of AoE is in effect.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. However, I think I tend to agree with what I think you are saying about Protoss not being able to apply simply early pressure without an all-in as long as WG is at Core tech. I certainly agree with regards to the deathball (and yes, BW, was and is the better game).
Cheers.
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All right. Allow me to bring up another topic for discussion.
One of the things that is really hurting SC2 is the inability of races to put on timing-based pressure that forces tech choices. I'll give an example from Broodwar. A Protoss player with the Dragoon range upgrade could attack Terran bunkers without being attacked back. This was obviously very strong, as it meant that the Protoss could easily put a steadily mounting amount of pressure on the Terran, forcing more and more SCVs to be drawn to repair the Bunker. However, the second a Siege Tank came out, it could outrange the Dragoons and force them back, especially with Siege Mode. Once this transition had been established, the Terran could go into a comfortable midgame. However, they were forced back by this aggression and were unable to cut corners for, say, an extremely early Vulture drop. On the same side, the Protoss was unable to simply rush the Bunker and take it down, because the SCVs would repair it too fast and reinforcements took too long. In this way the Protoss was able to force the Terran into Siege Tanks, apply pressure, and go into a very safe midgame where both players knew what was up and the winner would result from skill, not luck. This is a mostly missing concept in SC2. The most obvious issue is that Protoss cannot force a response from Terran until the midgame, where it's just the decision to get High Templar or Colossi. Before then, every type of Protoss aggression can just be responded to with Bunkered Marines and Marauders. ZvT aggression is similar, with only early Roach pressure forcing Marauders or Tanks (the latter of which the Terran wanted anyway). Zerg pressure against Protoss is also lacking, with there being no count like in Broodwar where 4 Zerglings would die to a Cannon but 6 would force a second Cannon. Roach pressure is almost always all-in in nature, with the Protoss either throwing down several Cannons, holding, and coming out on top, or the Zerg breaking through and ending the game. Protoss is able to force Zerg players to be honest, as we see by HerO's highly effective FFE play that contains Cannon rushes, Pylon blocks, and fast expansions. The relative lack of safe, nonlethal pressure in SC2 is a serious problem because it means that games will often devolve into coin flips and all-ins.
I can think of some very general solutions, but I'm not articulate enough to express them. I'll come back with more detail later.
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You mean like colossi forces vikings? Or banelings force tanks? Or mass muta forces thors? Or stargate forces hydra forces colossi forces spire?
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On November 09 2011 21:54 Thrombozyt wrote:
You mean like colossi forces vikings? Or banelings force tanks? Or mass muta forces thors? Or stargate forces hydra forces colossi forces spire?
Read his post again, he doesn't mean unit counters.
He means exchange in terms of tech and map control.
Right now everything seems kind of coin-flippy in terms of build orders and what tech you go.
You have no real way of scouting your opponent without commiting for a scouting tool.
In Broodwar you gained mapcontrol and scouting with general exchanges of aggressive / passive paths through the game.
For instance PvT:
Protoss gains Goon range as tech, he now can roam around the map and put pressure on the Terran that has to defend with a
Bunker to be safe until Siege Tanks hit the field. Through this simple process the Protoss gains map control, sees more or less the timings, and when Siege Tanks hit the field. As soon as he sees the Siege Tanks he has to retreat, as well as to take into consideration that the Terran soon will have Vultures and Mines, so he has to go back and defend his bases against harass, as well as get detection against Vultures. In this period of time, Terran can be aggressive, take map control, and do scouting.
Now protoss has to be in the defensive, deny harass, wait for observer to clear mines etc.
It's a natural exchange through tech and units, were both gain scouting without actually committing to a specific scouting tech, both can put on pressure during their tech advantage and do damage / outright kill the opponent.
That's mostly lacking in Sc2.
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Stargate->Hydro->colossus->spire is exactly such an exchange starting from a FFE or 1gate FE.
In TvZ you have: marines->ling speed->hellions->muta
In TvP you often have: Stalkers->concussive->some limbo depending on army size, senties and stim->medivacs->HT/colossus->ghost/viking
One tech is forcing out the other and forces the player catching up from the map until he can come out back again.. I know the BW dynamics, I just don't see why what I described is different.
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On November 09 2011 23:11 Thrombozyt wrote:
Stargate->Hydro->colossus->spire is exactly such an exchange starting from a FFE or 1gate FE.
In TvZ you have: marines->ling speed->hellions->muta
In TvP you often have: Stalkers->concussive->some limbo depending on army size, senties and stim->medivacs->HT/colossus->ghost/viking
One tech is forcing out the other and forces the player catching up from the map until he can come out back again.. I know the BW dynamics, I just don't see why what I described is different.
There are a few issues. Stargate doesn't actually force Hydras. Zerg can go for Queens and Spores and do just fine teching up to Infestors. I will admit it's one of the better examples, as Hydralisks that aren't defended properly are quite dangerous and their presence forces Protoss into fast Colossi.
However, TvZ is far less balanced in terms of that. There are very few things Zerg can do that really forces a specific response from Terran. Terran can get into a comfortable midgame without building a single Hellion if they choose, and Zergling speed doesn't stop them from getting Banshees. Mutalisks force a couple of Turrets, but don't alter the core army composition of Marine/Tank in the slightest. There's no timing pressure the Zerg can use to force the Terran to be honest or to make a certain choice.
TvP is even worse. Protoss literally cannot touch Terran in the early game. Your idea that Stalkers force Concussive is laughable. If that were true, we wouldn't have the 1-1-1. Terran has completely free reign to choose a variety of openings, such as gasless FE, 1rax Conc FE, 2rax pressure FE, 3rax pressure, or the 1-1-1. There's even a 1-1-1 expand build and a 2-1 Marine Tank pressure with Stim and Siege. The only "forcing" Protoss can do is to prevent fast cloaked Banshees by stealing gas. On the other hand, Terran can force tech paths out of Protoss that end up not allowing the Protoss to do anything back. So you have Immortals? Great, I already have the counter out. There's no balance in each player forcing responses. Terran dictates the whole game, with the only influence Protoss having is choosing between Templar and Robo tech, which ultimately doesn't change the Terran gameplan whatsoever. It just determines whether they'll have more Medivacs or Marauders.
In order for this balance to exist, both players need to be able to force decisions on one another. They need to be able to punish players for some decisions, and keep the game stable. Right now, there's a huge imbalance in favor of Terran, because so many Terran options are available with so little deviation from the norm. Protoss and Zerg have to deviate in order to produce counter units. The most Terran has to do is switch add-ons or build a Ghost Academy. Terran needs to be made a much more fragile race for balance to exist.
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On November 09 2011 22:10 Elefanto wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 21:54 Thrombozyt wrote:
You mean like colossi forces vikings? Or banelings force tanks? Or mass muta forces thors? Or stargate forces hydra forces colossi forces spire?
Read his post again, he doesn't mean unit counters. He means exchange in terms of tech and map control. Right now everything seems kind of coin-flippy in terms of build orders and what tech you go. You have no real way of scouting your opponent without commiting for a scouting tool. In Broodwar you gained mapcontrol and scouting with general exchanges of aggressive / passive paths through the game. For instance PvT: Protoss gains Goon range as tech, he now can roam around the map and put pressure on the Terran that has to defend with a Bunker to be safe until Siege Tanks hit the field. Through this simple process the Protoss gains map control, sees more or less the timings, and when Siege Tanks hit the field. As soon as he sees the Siege Tanks he has to retreat, as well as to take into consideration that the Terran soon will have Vultures and Mines, so he has to go back and defend his bases against harass, as well as get detection against Vultures. In this period of time, Terran can be aggressive, take map control, and do scouting. Now protoss has to be in the defensive, deny harass, wait for observer to clear mines etc. It's a natural exchange through tech and units, were both gain scouting without actually committing to a specific scouting tech, both can put on pressure during their tech advantage and do damage / outright kill the opponent. That's mostly lacking in Sc2.
How about Sentires?
Remember why T usually get medevacs after their 3rd Rax? Its because they need them (or siege mode) to deal with a Sentry contain. I don't see how it is different from goon range forcing Siege Tech.
Also P has ways to pressure the T, look how many T get 3-4 bunkers Blindly in TvP because a Heavy gateway timming can break their natural until stim and/ or medevacs are out.
TvZ? Why do you think T started going marine Tank? Or expanding(floating down to their nat) behind Siege mode or a Hellion contain.You can force a lot of stuff, a T who is 1 Rax expanding can be punished by a high econ banneling bust(which was super popular back in GSL 2 and 3). You can certainly force T and P into a certain tech path.And force timmings? Well thats what is happening all the time, T has to get either Medevacs or Siege tech at a certain time to deal with Sentry contain, Terran needs to get Siege mode to deal with the high econ banneling busts.
P can pressure a Zerg who didn't get speed with stalkers.
I seriously disagree in that there is no way to force timmings in SC2, you can argue that stuff has not been as figured out as in BW(Well, duh) but the balance of power certainly shifts with tech. Unless I am misinterprewting what you guys mean ofc
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T does not get Seige tech to prevent a sentry contain. That is just bollocks. The only reason T ever gets Seige tanks nowadays is to 1-1-1, or else do a MVP-style 2-2-2 on 2base.
Medivacs - perhaps. I see medivacs as just all-round useful, rather than a specific response to Sentry contain. If you're going MM, you want Medivacs quickly anyway.
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On November 10 2011 02:19 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 23:11 Thrombozyt wrote:
Stargate->Hydro->colossus->spire is exactly such an exchange starting from a FFE or 1gate FE.
In TvZ you have: marines->ling speed->hellions->muta
In TvP you often have: Stalkers->concussive->some limbo depending on army size, senties and stim->medivacs->HT/colossus->ghost/viking
One tech is forcing out the other and forces the player catching up from the map until he can come out back again.. I know the BW dynamics, I just don't see why what I described is different. There are a few issues. Stargate doesn't actually force Hydras. Zerg can go for Queens and Spores and do just fine teching up to Infestors. I will admit it's one of the better examples, as Hydralisks that aren't defended properly are quite dangerous and their presence forces Protoss into fast Colossi. However, TvZ is far less balanced in terms of that. There are very few things Zerg can do that really forces a specific response from Terran. Terran can get into a comfortable midgame without building a single Hellion if they choose, and Zergling speed doesn't stop them from getting Banshees. Mutalisks force a couple of Turrets, but don't alter the core army composition of Marine/Tank in the slightest. There's no timing pressure the Zerg can use to force the Terran to be honest or to make a certain choice. TvP is even worse. Protoss literally cannot touch Terran in the early game. Your idea that Stalkers force Concussive is laughable. If that were true, we wouldn't have the 1-1-1. Terran has completely free reign to choose a variety of openings, such as gasless FE, 1rax Conc FE, 2rax pressure FE, 3rax pressure, or the 1-1-1. There's even a 1-1-1 expand build and a 2-1 Marine Tank pressure with Stim and Siege. The only "forcing" Protoss can do is to prevent fast cloaked Banshees by stealing gas. On the other hand, Terran can force tech paths out of Protoss that end up not allowing the Protoss to do anything back. So you have Immortals? Great, I already have the counter out. There's no balance in each player forcing responses. Terran dictates the whole game, with the only influence Protoss having is choosing between Templar and Robo tech, which ultimately doesn't change the Terran gameplan whatsoever. It just determines whether they'll have more Medivacs or Marauders. In order for this balance to exist, both players need to be able to force decisions on one another. They need to be able to punish players for some decisions, and keep the game stable. Right now, there's a huge imbalance in favor of Terran, because so many Terran options are available with so little deviation from the norm. Protoss and Zerg have to deviate in order to produce counter units. The most Terran has to do is switch add-ons or build a Ghost Academy. Terran needs to be made a much more fragile race for balance to exist.
Current (or at least, most popular) ZvT metagame right now is Hellion Expand.
You're telling me you haven't seen ZvT's go like so:
Hellion Expand --> Roach Pressure --> Roach Pressure ends once first Siege Tank pops out --> Z immediately getting Lair --> Terran commits to either mech or bio --> Zerg responds with alternate tech (Spire, Infestation Pit, or Roach/Ling/Bane) in response to Terran tech --> Zerg gets Hive --> Terran forced to get ghosts and/or Vikings
I mean, if that isn't exactly what you meant by forcing Tech I don't know what is.
I agree with you that TvP is absolutely terrible though. But it's only WoL, let's see what happens.
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On November 10 2011 02:46 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 02:19 Acritter wrote:On November 09 2011 23:11 Thrombozyt wrote:
Stargate->Hydro->colossus->spire is exactly such an exchange starting from a FFE or 1gate FE.
In TvZ you have: marines->ling speed->hellions->muta
In TvP you often have: Stalkers->concussive->some limbo depending on army size, senties and stim->medivacs->HT/colossus->ghost/viking
One tech is forcing out the other and forces the player catching up from the map until he can come out back again.. I know the BW dynamics, I just don't see why what I described is different. There are a few issues. Stargate doesn't actually force Hydras. Zerg can go for Queens and Spores and do just fine teching up to Infestors. I will admit it's one of the better examples, as Hydralisks that aren't defended properly are quite dangerous and their presence forces Protoss into fast Colossi. However, TvZ is far less balanced in terms of that. There are very few things Zerg can do that really forces a specific response from Terran. Terran can get into a comfortable midgame without building a single Hellion if they choose, and Zergling speed doesn't stop them from getting Banshees. Mutalisks force a couple of Turrets, but don't alter the core army composition of Marine/Tank in the slightest. There's no timing pressure the Zerg can use to force the Terran to be honest or to make a certain choice. TvP is even worse. Protoss literally cannot touch Terran in the early game. Your idea that Stalkers force Concussive is laughable. If that were true, we wouldn't have the 1-1-1. Terran has completely free reign to choose a variety of openings, such as gasless FE, 1rax Conc FE, 2rax pressure FE, 3rax pressure, or the 1-1-1. There's even a 1-1-1 expand build and a 2-1 Marine Tank pressure with Stim and Siege. The only "forcing" Protoss can do is to prevent fast cloaked Banshees by stealing gas. On the other hand, Terran can force tech paths out of Protoss that end up not allowing the Protoss to do anything back. So you have Immortals? Great, I already have the counter out. There's no balance in each player forcing responses. Terran dictates the whole game, with the only influence Protoss having is choosing between Templar and Robo tech, which ultimately doesn't change the Terran gameplan whatsoever. It just determines whether they'll have more Medivacs or Marauders. In order for this balance to exist, both players need to be able to force decisions on one another. They need to be able to punish players for some decisions, and keep the game stable. Right now, there's a huge imbalance in favor of Terran, because so many Terran options are available with so little deviation from the norm. Protoss and Zerg have to deviate in order to produce counter units. The most Terran has to do is switch add-ons or build a Ghost Academy. Terran needs to be made a much more fragile race for balance to exist. Current (or at least, most popular) ZvT metagame right now is Hellion Expand. You're telling me you haven't seen ZvT's go like so: Hellion Expand --> Roach Pressure --> Roach Pressure ends once first Siege Tank pops out --> Z immediately getting Lair --> Terran commits to either mech or bio --> Zerg responds with alternate tech (Spire, Infestation Pit, or Roach/Ling/Bane) in response to Terran tech --> Zerg gets Hive --> Terran forced to get ghosts and/or Vikings I mean, if that isn't exactly what you meant by forcing Tech I don't know what is. I agree with you that TvP is absolutely terrible though. But it's only WoL, let's see what happens.
Terran has a good option of opener in pure Marine builds into faster Tanks, Zerg can respond to Hellions with a couple Spines and rush to a faster Spire, and Roaches can be responded to by going for a Hellion/Marauder all-in. That's the main difference.
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On November 10 2011 02:41 SeaSwift wrote:
T does not get Seige tech to prevent a sentry contain. That is just bollocks. The only reason T ever gets Seige tanks nowadays is to 1-1-1, or else do a MVP-style 2-2-2 on 2base.
Medivacs - perhaps. I see medivacs as just all-round useful, rather than a specific response to Sentry contain. If you're going MM, you want Medivacs quickly anyway.
I said medevacs OR Siege mode(which if you remember the Marine tank style that was popular in europe last year you know they couldn't get out of their base until siege mode completed)
And how is it different than a Goon with range forcing siege mode? Most of the time you were going mech as a T against P.
And thats not my point anyways, either medevacs or Siege mode have to be done at a certain time to deal with a Sentry contain. Which is similar to how Siege mode was needed to deal with the Goons outside of your Bunker.
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On November 10 2011 03:09 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 02:46 Flonomenalz wrote:On November 10 2011 02:19 Acritter wrote:On November 09 2011 23:11 Thrombozyt wrote:
Stargate->Hydro->colossus->spire is exactly such an exchange starting from a FFE or 1gate FE.
In TvZ you have: marines->ling speed->hellions->muta
In TvP you often have: Stalkers->concussive->some limbo depending on army size, senties and stim->medivacs->HT/colossus->ghost/viking
One tech is forcing out the other and forces the player catching up from the map until he can come out back again.. I know the BW dynamics, I just don't see why what I described is different. There are a few issues. Stargate doesn't actually force Hydras. Zerg can go for Queens and Spores and do just fine teching up to Infestors. I will admit it's one of the better examples, as Hydralisks that aren't defended properly are quite dangerous and their presence forces Protoss into fast Colossi. However, TvZ is far less balanced in terms of that. There are very few things Zerg can do that really forces a specific response from Terran. Terran can get into a comfortable midgame without building a single Hellion if they choose, and Zergling speed doesn't stop them from getting Banshees. Mutalisks force a couple of Turrets, but don't alter the core army composition of Marine/Tank in the slightest. There's no timing pressure the Zerg can use to force the Terran to be honest or to make a certain choice. TvP is even worse. Protoss literally cannot touch Terran in the early game. Your idea that Stalkers force Concussive is laughable. If that were true, we wouldn't have the 1-1-1. Terran has completely free reign to choose a variety of openings, such as gasless FE, 1rax Conc FE, 2rax pressure FE, 3rax pressure, or the 1-1-1. There's even a 1-1-1 expand build and a 2-1 Marine Tank pressure with Stim and Siege. The only "forcing" Protoss can do is to prevent fast cloaked Banshees by stealing gas. On the other hand, Terran can force tech paths out of Protoss that end up not allowing the Protoss to do anything back. So you have Immortals? Great, I already have the counter out. There's no balance in each player forcing responses. Terran dictates the whole game, with the only influence Protoss having is choosing between Templar and Robo tech, which ultimately doesn't change the Terran gameplan whatsoever. It just determines whether they'll have more Medivacs or Marauders. In order for this balance to exist, both players need to be able to force decisions on one another. They need to be able to punish players for some decisions, and keep the game stable. Right now, there's a huge imbalance in favor of Terran, because so many Terran options are available with so little deviation from the norm. Protoss and Zerg have to deviate in order to produce counter units. The most Terran has to do is switch add-ons or build a Ghost Academy. Terran needs to be made a much more fragile race for balance to exist. Current (or at least, most popular) ZvT metagame right now is Hellion Expand. You're telling me you haven't seen ZvT's go like so: Hellion Expand --> Roach Pressure --> Roach Pressure ends once first Siege Tank pops out --> Z immediately getting Lair --> Terran commits to either mech or bio --> Zerg responds with alternate tech (Spire, Infestation Pit, or Roach/Ling/Bane) in response to Terran tech --> Zerg gets Hive --> Terran forced to get ghosts and/or Vikings I mean, if that isn't exactly what you meant by forcing Tech I don't know what is. I agree with you that TvP is absolutely terrible though. But it's only WoL, let's see what happens. Terran has a good option of opener in pure Marine builds into faster Tanks, Zerg can respond to Hellions with a couple Spines and rush to a faster Spire, and Roaches can be responded to by going for a Hellion/Marauder all-in. That's the main difference.
Wow are you seriously trying to ignore that you're wrong?
Zerg sees faster tanks --> realizes Terran cuts econ for faster siege tech --> Faster Lair
Terran sees heavy spine hellion defense --> Makes 3rd CC since Z is committed to 2 base until Mutas/Infestors --> Zerg must do damage with Lair Tech to equalize econ loss
Hellion --> Roach pressure --> Hellion Maurauder all in is a tech switch. You're adding extra tech labs on all your barracks....
Keep on the BW elitism buddy.
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Problem: I saw Jinro post in one of the GSL threads lately, I think it was Day 3, about Hellions no longer being good against Marines, like they were meant to be. Something along the lines of "I want my Hellions that can actually do something against Marines back." I think I agree. I haven't seen enough games with Mech vs Bio yet, but the games in the GSL I have seen seem to indicate that Hellions can't really do shit against a Terran that has a decent amount of Marines.
Solution: Give Hellions back their damage, but make them unable to load into Medivacs.
Side Effects: This still allows run-bys and harassment, but it gets rid of the largest complaint about Hellions. The dreaded "I left my base for three seconds, a four Blue Flame Hellion drop happened, and I don't have workers anymore" problem. The Terran still has Marine/Maurader/Tank/anything but Hellion drops, so they won't be gimped.
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On November 10 2011 03:22 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 03:09 Acritter wrote:On November 10 2011 02:46 Flonomenalz wrote:On November 10 2011 02:19 Acritter wrote:On November 09 2011 23:11 Thrombozyt wrote:
Stargate->Hydro->colossus->spire is exactly such an exchange starting from a FFE or 1gate FE.
In TvZ you have: marines->ling speed->hellions->muta
In TvP you often have: Stalkers->concussive->some limbo depending on army size, senties and stim->medivacs->HT/colossus->ghost/viking
One tech is forcing out the other and forces the player catching up from the map until he can come out back again.. I know the BW dynamics, I just don't see why what I described is different. There are a few issues. Stargate doesn't actually force Hydras. Zerg can go for Queens and Spores and do just fine teching up to Infestors. I will admit it's one of the better examples, as Hydralisks that aren't defended properly are quite dangerous and their presence forces Protoss into fast Colossi. However, TvZ is far less balanced in terms of that. There are very few things Zerg can do that really forces a specific response from Terran. Terran can get into a comfortable midgame without building a single Hellion if they choose, and Zergling speed doesn't stop them from getting Banshees. Mutalisks force a couple of Turrets, but don't alter the core army composition of Marine/Tank in the slightest. There's no timing pressure the Zerg can use to force the Terran to be honest or to make a certain choice. TvP is even worse. Protoss literally cannot touch Terran in the early game. Your idea that Stalkers force Concussive is laughable. If that were true, we wouldn't have the 1-1-1. Terran has completely free reign to choose a variety of openings, such as gasless FE, 1rax Conc FE, 2rax pressure FE, 3rax pressure, or the 1-1-1. There's even a 1-1-1 expand build and a 2-1 Marine Tank pressure with Stim and Siege. The only "forcing" Protoss can do is to prevent fast cloaked Banshees by stealing gas. On the other hand, Terran can force tech paths out of Protoss that end up not allowing the Protoss to do anything back. So you have Immortals? Great, I already have the counter out. There's no balance in each player forcing responses. Terran dictates the whole game, with the only influence Protoss having is choosing between Templar and Robo tech, which ultimately doesn't change the Terran gameplan whatsoever. It just determines whether they'll have more Medivacs or Marauders. In order for this balance to exist, both players need to be able to force decisions on one another. They need to be able to punish players for some decisions, and keep the game stable. Right now, there's a huge imbalance in favor of Terran, because so many Terran options are available with so little deviation from the norm. Protoss and Zerg have to deviate in order to produce counter units. The most Terran has to do is switch add-ons or build a Ghost Academy. Terran needs to be made a much more fragile race for balance to exist. Current (or at least, most popular) ZvT metagame right now is Hellion Expand. You're telling me you haven't seen ZvT's go like so: Hellion Expand --> Roach Pressure --> Roach Pressure ends once first Siege Tank pops out --> Z immediately getting Lair --> Terran commits to either mech or bio --> Zerg responds with alternate tech (Spire, Infestation Pit, or Roach/Ling/Bane) in response to Terran tech --> Zerg gets Hive --> Terran forced to get ghosts and/or Vikings I mean, if that isn't exactly what you meant by forcing Tech I don't know what is. I agree with you that TvP is absolutely terrible though. But it's only WoL, let's see what happens. Terran has a good option of opener in pure Marine builds into faster Tanks, Zerg can respond to Hellions with a couple Spines and rush to a faster Spire, and Roaches can be responded to by going for a Hellion/Marauder all-in. That's the main difference. Wow are you seriously trying to ignore that you're wrong? Zerg sees faster tanks --> realizes Terran cuts econ for faster siege tech --> Faster Lair Terran sees heavy spine hellion defense --> Makes 3rd CC since Z is committed to 2 base until Mutas/Infestors --> Zerg must do damage with Lair Tech to equalize econ loss Hellion --> Roach pressure --> Hellion Maurauder all in is a tech switch. You're adding extra tech labs on all your barracks.... Keep on the BW elitism buddy.
Let's compare it to BW.
Zerg sees no Medics -> gets uncontested 3rd, makes Queens to kill the Tanks with, wins. This was popular for Terrans until Zergs realized Queens wreck mech.
Terran sees no defensive Sunks -> wins.
Terran faces no Mutas -> loses no workers, gains complete map control, wins.
Zerg sees no Science Vessels -> keeps map control for longer, gets much faster 4th and Hive, wins.
Any deviation from the BW norm means the player loses (with the exception of cheese, also note that this is exclusively for TvZ). All you can try to do is cut corners here and there: place a couple less Turrets, not stick down as many Sunks, build a few less Lurkers so you hit Defilers faster, and so on. There is never a complete deviation in strategy. In SC2, we can see some complete deviations in strategy. These deviations are because players are not being properly pressured and because multiple units fulfill the same purpose. Again, Terran is the best at pressuring, because their units demand specific reactions and because they are able to react to anything remarkably quickly. The inability of the other races to do so severely hampers the balance of the game.
Perhaps the best way of putting it is that any kind of pressure on Terran is defended by what they were doing already. Terran was going to get Tanks anyway, it was going to get Concussive, it was going to get Ghosts. Zerg was not going to get Roaches, and Protoss wasn't going to get that ridiculous Sentry count. They don't factor into the lategame. Those Roaches and Sentries will be very weak in the lategame and limit the ability to tech up, while the Tanks and Marauders and Ghosts will be as good as ever.
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On November 10 2011 04:37 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 03:22 Flonomenalz wrote:On November 10 2011 03:09 Acritter wrote:On November 10 2011 02:46 Flonomenalz wrote:On November 10 2011 02:19 Acritter wrote:On November 09 2011 23:11 Thrombozyt wrote:
Stargate->Hydro->colossus->spire is exactly such an exchange starting from a FFE or 1gate FE.
In TvZ you have: marines->ling speed->hellions->muta
In TvP you often have: Stalkers->concussive->some limbo depending on army size, senties and stim->medivacs->HT/colossus->ghost/viking
One tech is forcing out the other and forces the player catching up from the map until he can come out back again.. I know the BW dynamics, I just don't see why what I described is different. There are a few issues. Stargate doesn't actually force Hydras. Zerg can go for Queens and Spores and do just fine teching up to Infestors. I will admit it's one of the better examples, as Hydralisks that aren't defended properly are quite dangerous and their presence forces Protoss into fast Colossi. However, TvZ is far less balanced in terms of that. There are very few things Zerg can do that really forces a specific response from Terran. Terran can get into a comfortable midgame without building a single Hellion if they choose, and Zergling speed doesn't stop them from getting Banshees. Mutalisks force a couple of Turrets, but don't alter the core army composition of Marine/Tank in the slightest. There's no timing pressure the Zerg can use to force the Terran to be honest or to make a certain choice. TvP is even worse. Protoss literally cannot touch Terran in the early game. Your idea that Stalkers force Concussive is laughable. If that were true, we wouldn't have the 1-1-1. Terran has completely free reign to choose a variety of openings, such as gasless FE, 1rax Conc FE, 2rax pressure FE, 3rax pressure, or the 1-1-1. There's even a 1-1-1 expand build and a 2-1 Marine Tank pressure with Stim and Siege. The only "forcing" Protoss can do is to prevent fast cloaked Banshees by stealing gas. On the other hand, Terran can force tech paths out of Protoss that end up not allowing the Protoss to do anything back. So you have Immortals? Great, I already have the counter out. There's no balance in each player forcing responses. Terran dictates the whole game, with the only influence Protoss having is choosing between Templar and Robo tech, which ultimately doesn't change the Terran gameplan whatsoever. It just determines whether they'll have more Medivacs or Marauders. In order for this balance to exist, both players need to be able to force decisions on one another. They need to be able to punish players for some decisions, and keep the game stable. Right now, there's a huge imbalance in favor of Terran, because so many Terran options are available with so little deviation from the norm. Protoss and Zerg have to deviate in order to produce counter units. The most Terran has to do is switch add-ons or build a Ghost Academy. Terran needs to be made a much more fragile race for balance to exist. Current (or at least, most popular) ZvT metagame right now is Hellion Expand. You're telling me you haven't seen ZvT's go like so: Hellion Expand --> Roach Pressure --> Roach Pressure ends once first Siege Tank pops out --> Z immediately getting Lair --> Terran commits to either mech or bio --> Zerg responds with alternate tech (Spire, Infestation Pit, or Roach/Ling/Bane) in response to Terran tech --> Zerg gets Hive --> Terran forced to get ghosts and/or Vikings I mean, if that isn't exactly what you meant by forcing Tech I don't know what is. I agree with you that TvP is absolutely terrible though. But it's only WoL, let's see what happens. Terran has a good option of opener in pure Marine builds into faster Tanks, Zerg can respond to Hellions with a couple Spines and rush to a faster Spire, and Roaches can be responded to by going for a Hellion/Marauder all-in. That's the main difference. Wow are you seriously trying to ignore that you're wrong? Zerg sees faster tanks --> realizes Terran cuts econ for faster siege tech --> Faster Lair Terran sees heavy spine hellion defense --> Makes 3rd CC since Z is committed to 2 base until Mutas/Infestors --> Zerg must do damage with Lair Tech to equalize econ loss Hellion --> Roach pressure --> Hellion Maurauder all in is a tech switch. You're adding extra tech labs on all your barracks.... Keep on the BW elitism buddy. Let's compare it to BW. Zerg sees no Medics -> gets uncontested 3rd, makes Queens to kill the Tanks with, wins. This was popular for Terrans until Zergs realized Queens wreck mech. Terran sees no defensive Sunks -> wins. Terran faces no Mutas -> loses no workers, gains complete map control, wins. Zerg sees no Science Vessels -> keeps map control for longer, gets much faster 4th and Hive, wins. Any deviation from the BW norm means the player loses (with the exception of cheese, also note that this is exclusively for TvZ). All you can try to do is cut corners here and there: place a couple less Turrets, not stick down as many Sunks, build a few less Lurkers so you hit Defilers faster, and so on. There is never a complete deviation in strategy. In SC2, we can see some complete deviations in strategy. These deviations are because players are not being properly pressured and because multiple units fulfill the same purpose. Again, Terran is the best at pressuring, because their units demand specific reactions and because they are able to react to anything remarkably quickly. The inability of the other races to do so severely hampers the balance of the game. Perhaps the best way of putting it is that any kind of pressure on Terran is defended by what they were doing already. Terran was going to get Tanks anyway, it was going to get Concussive, it was going to get Ghosts. Zerg was not going to get Roaches, and Protoss wasn't going to get that ridiculous Sentry count. They don't factor into the lategame. Those Roaches and Sentries will be very weak in the lategame and limit the ability to tech up, while the Tanks and Marauders and Ghosts will be as good as ever.
Your lack of understanding is astounding.
Muta/Ling/Bling ZvT trades the ability to directly engage the Terran army cost efficiently early on in favor of harassment and massing up army later.
Ling/Infestor does the exact opposite, it's substantially harder to harass but you trade armies much more efficiently.
That's pretty much it. Any deviation from these 2 norms means you lose.
And you're assuming so many things. You're assuming every single Terran plays Marine/Tank. How are Roaches not going to factor into the midgame if Terran goes Mech? How is a high Sentry count not going to matter when Protoss is designed around FF?
I know Terran is slighty OP but jeez dude.
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I think that Terran isn't OP but Zerg is the big issue right now. No one is playing Zerg perfectly, not even close, yet Zerg can make GSL finals, win tournaments and do well for themselves over all. They have the best siege unit, the broodlord and the fastest units.
Imagine when Zerg's start landing larvae injects perfectly, having perfect drone saturation and perfect army positioning. Stephano has the army positioning and micro and is still raping face without having good injects.
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They have the best siege unit, the broodlord
You're kidding me right? Sure, broodlings spawn after every attack, but they move really FUCKING SLOW. At the very best, broods are probably tied with tanks.
Your lack of understanding is astounding.
Muta/Ling/Bling ZvT trades the ability to directly engage the Terran army cost efficiently early on in favor of harassment and massing up army later.
Ling/Infestor does the exact opposite, it's substantially harder to harass but you trade armies much more efficiently.
That's pretty much it. Any deviation from these 2 norms means you lose.
Agreed. People go infestor ling if they don't think they have to worry about a tank push, and if they are able to effectively use overlords or nydus worms for drops instead of mutas. If we go pure M/L/B, then we have to worry about the terran having good micro capabilities, because blings are way easier to dodge than fungals, and although blings are the second biggest supply eater in the game (first being marines), it takes time to get them ready and in a good spot.
Separately, I honestly feel that snipe in TvZ is fucking OP. Honestly, ghosts are pretty far from squishy units (they have 100 HP), snipe has a range of 10, and it has absolutely no cooldown, and it does instant damage, so each ghost can do 270 damage in one second to a zerg army. Not to mention how fucking hard it is to keep your overseers from being sniped, thus allowing the ghosts free damage on your army. Also, we have no EMP equivalent, and as such we have no way to stop snipes from being fired short of killing the untargetable ghost. I don't play toss, so I won't make a comment on EMP, though I think it is balanced for TvZ since they nerfed its radius.
Besides snipe, I feel that ZvT is a balanced MU. I know that almost every time I lose, it's because I fucked something up, like not getting roaches when I saw a mass hellion push w/ tanks.
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EPT
