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On November 27 2011 13:33 SolidMoose wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2011 13:25 happyness wrote:On November 17 2011 13:08 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 17 2011 12:52 Snowen wrote:On November 10 2011 02:19 Acritter wrote:On November 09 2011 23:11 Thrombozyt wrote:
Stargate->Hydro->colossus->spire is exactly such an exchange starting from a FFE or 1gate FE.
In TvZ you have: marines->ling speed->hellions->muta
In TvP you often have: Stalkers->concussive->some limbo depending on army size, senties and stim->medivacs->HT/colossus->ghost/viking
One tech is forcing out the other and forces the player catching up from the map until he can come out back again.. I know the BW dynamics, I just don't see why what I described is different. There are a few issues. Stargate doesn't actually force Hydras. Zerg can go for Queens and Spores and do just fine teching up to Infestors. I will admit it's one of the better examples, as Hydralisks that aren't defended properly are quite dangerous and their presence forces Protoss into fast Colossi. However, TvZ is far less balanced in terms of that. There are very few things Zerg can do that really forces a specific response from Terran. Terran can get into a comfortable midgame without building a single Hellion if they choose, and Zergling speed doesn't stop them from getting Banshees. Mutalisks force a couple of Turrets, but don't alter the core army composition of Marine/Tank in the slightest. There's no timing pressure the Zerg can use to force the Terran to be honest or to make a certain choice. TvP is even worse. Protoss literally cannot touch Terran in the early game. Your idea that Stalkers force Concussive is laughable. If that were true, we wouldn't have the 1-1-1. Terran has completely free reign to choose a variety of openings, such as gasless FE, 1rax Conc FE, 2rax pressure FE, 3rax pressure, or the 1-1-1. There's even a 1-1-1 expand build and a 2-1 Marine Tank pressure with Stim and Siege. The only "forcing" Protoss can do is to prevent fast cloaked Banshees by stealing gas. On the other hand, Terran can force tech paths out of Protoss that end up not allowing the Protoss to do anything back. So you have Immortals? Great, I already have the counter out. There's no balance in each player forcing responses. Terran dictates the whole game, with the only influence Protoss having is choosing between Templar and Robo tech, which ultimately doesn't change the Terran gameplan whatsoever. It just determines whether they'll have more Medivacs or Marauders. In order for this balance to exist, both players need to be able to force decisions on one another. They need to be able to punish players for some decisions, and keep the game stable. Right now, there's a huge imbalance in favor of Terran, because so many Terran options are available with so little deviation from the norm. Protoss and Zerg have to deviate in order to produce counter units. The most Terran has to do is switch add-ons or build a Ghost Academy. Terran needs to be made a much more fragile race for balance to exist. This is an excellent post.. I totally agree. You do realise Terran HAS TO dictate the game. Otherwise if the Toss is left in his base to max out, it is VERY difficult for a Terran to deal with this. If I were a toss player, I wouldn't be complaining the fact all I need to do is stay in my base all game and max out. Terran is the one who has to take initiative and make something happen. Because if he doesn't, hes pretty much screwed. I think it's a pretty big myth that the maxed out army of protoss is greater than the maxed out army of terran. If anything the terran army is stronger, if the terran knows how to control ghosts. The same can be said about protoss controlling HT's, except there's generally more to control for Terran to not get completely fucked over. The whole matchup would be much better if tanks were viable lategame, because then a lategame terran army might win with some AoE. But as it is now Terran has to do something before the Colossus/Archon/HT death army gets too big. Probably why so many Terrans are doing all ins (including MVP) PvT is right now favoring protoss, and if that doesn't change I'd like to either see a compromised EMP nerf (1.7-1.8 radius) or removing one of the two archon buffs (massive or 3 range). But all this may become obsolete once HOTS hits 
Out of curiosity, what makes you think that PvT is favoring Protoss? When did that happen? It's been favoring Terran for nearly the entire existence of SC2, according to each month's data. Both late game armies can certainly go toe-to-toe with one another, depending on unit composition... and if it comes down to having good control over their units (including spellcasters), you see blanket EMPs win the game far more often than blanket storms.
Also, I think that making EMP's radius the same size as psi storm's (don't forget that psi storm got that reduced radius nerf first and Protoss learned to live with it) is the least that could happen... ghosts still have longer range, don't forget.
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On November 27 2011 12:18 neoghaleon55 wrote:
The mule itself isn't so bad...it's just the over saturation muling that bugs me.
Overall, it's not game breaking...except for gold mineral patches...which tournaments like GSL are finally removing.
Honestly I'm starting to feel that the game is indeed approaching balance.
There are a few minor kinks which needs to be dealt with, in terms of strategies which have high rewards but low risks...
...namely 2 rax tvz and mass muta zvp
Everything else is fine.
I still don't understand why people complain about mass ghost snipes...seems like ultrabanes would easily solve that issue
...goddamn gsl zergs need to use ultrabanes....
LOOKING AT YOU LIQUID ZENIO!!!!
2 rax tvz is pretty high risk as it sacrifices tech + econ for so long that you are extremely prone to a baneling bust. Furthermore, you will cede total map control unless you go for ultra late hellions which will be useless if zerg goes early mutas.
And its pretty easy to hold of 2 rax pushes now for zerg.
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On November 17 2011 12:35 Asaraphym wrote:
First Post! YAY! Love TL!!
Im just a high gold, low plat protoss. And there have been a lot of discussion about Terran Ghosts EMP against protoss HT. what i usually do is carry them in a warp prism and then drop them after EMP hits, or move them to high ground and rain down the storms/feedback medivacs/ghosts or the occasional thor that comes. Then deploy warp prism and use to warp in reinforcements behind the battle.
I dont see a lot of replays with this strat being used.
I have also been trying to experiment using my pheonix to lift up units to protect from EMP then drop. but havent tried that yet dont know if that helps them survive the EMP.
Any thoughts?
If you could, you should lift up the ghosts. even just for a second could be huge and if they are mostly marauders (should be late game) then your phoenixes (phoenii?) should live. Having Vikings fire on phoenixes is better than on colossus as well.
Protoss's major problem right now is with the massing of the other races tier 1 units;
I feel like we should be focussing on smaller, mechanically/tactically oriented things that we, as a community of noobs, can actually discuss.
We can never say something allow the lines of "this is a problem for the game or for a race" we can only really say "this is a problem for me".
I don't have much of a problem with sc2 right now, but I do think we will see Protoss at least even the winrate scales that are usually Terran favoured. The Terrans that survive are ones with sick unit control. I like it.
As far as you saying Terran has to dictate the game, well I kind of disagree with that. If you go back to Puzzle vs Ganzi last night on GSL, Even though Puzzle gained a huge economy lead killing Ganzi's expo/all his scvs (think it was 7 scvs against 40??), with Mules Ganzi came back and maintained a very strong game. Of course, he was far behind, but the point is since Puzzle didn't apply any more pressure after that, Ganzi was able to get back into the game and the final battle came and they wasted eachothers armies, Puzzle only won in the end due to his expo advantage while Ganzi ran out.
A Bio playing Terran should control the flow of the Protoss army. If he does not, he risks the Protoss obtaining a strong position, where forcefields and splash damage can annihilate a bio army. I kinda think you should trust me on this one, tbh your example of one game (where the T still lost!) is pretty moot.
Especially with the recent love of super fast chrono'd double upgrades, a bio playing Terran player really needs to force good engagements early and often.
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On November 27 2011 13:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2011 13:33 SolidMoose wrote:On November 27 2011 13:25 happyness wrote:On November 17 2011 13:08 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 17 2011 12:52 Snowen wrote:On November 10 2011 02:19 Acritter wrote:On November 09 2011 23:11 Thrombozyt wrote:
Stargate->Hydro->colossus->spire is exactly such an exchange starting from a FFE or 1gate FE.
In TvZ you have: marines->ling speed->hellions->muta
In TvP you often have: Stalkers->concussive->some limbo depending on army size, senties and stim->medivacs->HT/colossus->ghost/viking
One tech is forcing out the other and forces the player catching up from the map until he can come out back again.. I know the BW dynamics, I just don't see why what I described is different. There are a few issues. Stargate doesn't actually force Hydras. Zerg can go for Queens and Spores and do just fine teching up to Infestors. I will admit it's one of the better examples, as Hydralisks that aren't defended properly are quite dangerous and their presence forces Protoss into fast Colossi. However, TvZ is far less balanced in terms of that. There are very few things Zerg can do that really forces a specific response from Terran. Terran can get into a comfortable midgame without building a single Hellion if they choose, and Zergling speed doesn't stop them from getting Banshees. Mutalisks force a couple of Turrets, but don't alter the core army composition of Marine/Tank in the slightest. There's no timing pressure the Zerg can use to force the Terran to be honest or to make a certain choice. TvP is even worse. Protoss literally cannot touch Terran in the early game. Your idea that Stalkers force Concussive is laughable. If that were true, we wouldn't have the 1-1-1. Terran has completely free reign to choose a variety of openings, such as gasless FE, 1rax Conc FE, 2rax pressure FE, 3rax pressure, or the 1-1-1. There's even a 1-1-1 expand build and a 2-1 Marine Tank pressure with Stim and Siege. The only "forcing" Protoss can do is to prevent fast cloaked Banshees by stealing gas. On the other hand, Terran can force tech paths out of Protoss that end up not allowing the Protoss to do anything back. So you have Immortals? Great, I already have the counter out. There's no balance in each player forcing responses. Terran dictates the whole game, with the only influence Protoss having is choosing between Templar and Robo tech, which ultimately doesn't change the Terran gameplan whatsoever. It just determines whether they'll have more Medivacs or Marauders. In order for this balance to exist, both players need to be able to force decisions on one another. They need to be able to punish players for some decisions, and keep the game stable. Right now, there's a huge imbalance in favor of Terran, because so many Terran options are available with so little deviation from the norm. Protoss and Zerg have to deviate in order to produce counter units. The most Terran has to do is switch add-ons or build a Ghost Academy. Terran needs to be made a much more fragile race for balance to exist. This is an excellent post.. I totally agree. You do realise Terran HAS TO dictate the game. Otherwise if the Toss is left in his base to max out, it is VERY difficult for a Terran to deal with this. If I were a toss player, I wouldn't be complaining the fact all I need to do is stay in my base all game and max out. Terran is the one who has to take initiative and make something happen. Because if he doesn't, hes pretty much screwed. I think it's a pretty big myth that the maxed out army of protoss is greater than the maxed out army of terran. If anything the terran army is stronger, if the terran knows how to control ghosts. The same can be said about protoss controlling HT's, except there's generally more to control for Terran to not get completely fucked over. The whole matchup would be much better if tanks were viable lategame, because then a lategame terran army might win with some AoE. But as it is now Terran has to do something before the Colossus/Archon/HT death army gets too big. Probably why so many Terrans are doing all ins (including MVP) PvT is right now favoring protoss, and if that doesn't change I'd like to either see a compromised EMP nerf (1.7-1.8 radius) or removing one of the two archon buffs (massive or 3 range). But all this may become obsolete once HOTS hits Out of curiosity, what makes you think that PvT is favoring Protoss? When did that happen? It's been favoring Terran for nearly the entire existence of SC2, according to each month's data. Both late game armies can certainly go toe-to-toe with one another, depending on unit composition... and if it comes down to having good control over their units (including spellcasters), you see blanket EMPs win the game far more often than blanket storms. Also, I think that making EMP's radius the same size as psi storm's (don't forget that psi storm got that reduced radius nerf first and Protoss learned to live with it) is the least that could happen... ghosts still have longer range, don't forget.
Its only been favouring the korean terrans because frankly, they are the best mechanically + innovate bunch due to how many good korean terrans there are to innovate and try out.
Now that protosses have created good builds to counter, we start seeing protoss take charge of this matchup. Heck look at dreamhack/MLG, all the foreign terrans bombed out like nothing. We only see the korean terrans make it to the late rounds.
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On November 27 2011 13:47 cive wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2011 13:04 kappadevin wrote:
Missing an Inject is more punishing than missing a MULE, but that isn't really a balance related issue. At the highest level neither player should be missing either. In a similar way, missing an SCV cycle is more punishing than letting an extra larva spawn before making two drones at once. You can't say that larvae inject is more punishing than MULE because they are different variables. MULE is a gatherer and a product while larvae inject is increasing the production capacity. The consequence of missing an larvae inject is just more visible and obvious than missing a MULE drop. If larvae inject worries people, there are many solutions. One that I use (because I miss injects lol) is getting a macro hatch pre-lair.
Missing a MULE drop is pretty much not an issue in the slightest unless you've missed several in row or you're going pure production into an all in with no non unit production costs like upgrades or tech. If you miss a MULE and then drop two at once, then you've still mined the same amount of minerals and your tech is primarily limited by gas.
A lot of the time you can miss MULEs with zero consequences.
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On November 27 2011 13:59 Ziggitz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2011 13:47 cive wrote:On November 27 2011 13:04 kappadevin wrote:
Missing an Inject is more punishing than missing a MULE, but that isn't really a balance related issue. At the highest level neither player should be missing either. In a similar way, missing an SCV cycle is more punishing than letting an extra larva spawn before making two drones at once. You can't say that larvae inject is more punishing than MULE because they are different variables. MULE is a gatherer and a product while larvae inject is increasing the production capacity. The consequence of missing an larvae inject is just more visible and obvious than missing a MULE drop. If larvae inject worries people, there are many solutions. One that I use (because I miss injects lol) is getting a macro hatch pre-lair. Missing a MULE drop is pretty much not an issue in the slightest unless you've missed several in row or you're going pure production into an all in with no non unit production costs like upgrades or tech. If you miss a MULE and then drop two at once, then you've still mined the same amount of minerals and your tech is primarily limited by gas. A lot of the time you can miss MULEs with zero consequences.
Well, if i was a zerg player, i can also get supply blocked with no consequences since i can just store up larva and then build drones, while protoss and terran miss out on scvs + production when they get supply blocked.
Every race have their own unique mechanics i suppose.
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On November 27 2011 14:03 poorcloud wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2011 13:59 Ziggitz wrote:On November 27 2011 13:47 cive wrote:On November 27 2011 13:04 kappadevin wrote:
Missing an Inject is more punishing than missing a MULE, but that isn't really a balance related issue. At the highest level neither player should be missing either. In a similar way, missing an SCV cycle is more punishing than letting an extra larva spawn before making two drones at once. You can't say that larvae inject is more punishing than MULE because they are different variables. MULE is a gatherer and a product while larvae inject is increasing the production capacity. The consequence of missing an larvae inject is just more visible and obvious than missing a MULE drop. If larvae inject worries people, there are many solutions. One that I use (because I miss injects lol) is getting a macro hatch pre-lair. Missing a MULE drop is pretty much not an issue in the slightest unless you've missed several in row or you're going pure production into an all in with no non unit production costs like upgrades or tech. If you miss a MULE and then drop two at once, then you've still mined the same amount of minerals and your tech is primarily limited by gas. A lot of the time you can miss MULEs with zero consequences. Well, if i was a zerg player, i can also get supply blocked with no consequences since i can just store up larva and then build drones, while protoss and terran miss out on scvs + production when they get supply blocked. Every race have their own unique mechanics i suppose.
Not even close to accurate. After Terran and Protoss get enough workers to constantly produce workers from their main structure(i.e. when the game clock hits zero seconds) Their worker production is constant minus the build time of the orbital and taking chrono boosts into account. Meanwhile Zerg can and has to produce workers with as many of their larvae as they can get away with. This also means if you use all 10 larvae per minute on drones from a hatch with a queen, you can spend 500 minerals per minute on drones, which in the early game with 2 hatches and queens means up to 1000 minerals per minute, i.e. all of your early game economy if you can get away with it.
Because of this you produce drones to mine minerals to make more drones meaning that any delay at an early stage of drone production has an exponential effect on your economy. Zerg are affected the most by early supply blocks. Even more so if they are a queen short whilst supply blocked as the hatchery that needs that queen will be running at less than half production capacity.
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Are people still touting inject as a difficult/inferior mechanism? Inject is arguably the strongest mechanic, and vastly outstrips the other races in the late game.
It's simply not true that injects make Z somehow more difficult or demanding at a high level than the other races. Last time I checked T was easily the most mechanically demanding race overall in micromanagement and multitasking, balanced out by straightforward macro mechanics.
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On November 27 2011 14:30 architecture wrote:
Are people still touting inject as a difficult/inferior mechanism? Inject is arguably the strongest mechanic, and vastly outstrips the other races in the late game.
It's simply not true that injects make Z somehow more difficult or demanding at a high level than the other races. Last time I checked T was easily the most mechanically demanding race overall in micromanagement and multitasking, balanced out by straightforward macro mechanics.
No, no one is touting that. ಠ_ಠ
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I guess I'll bring up a new topic. I'm sure all of you have heard of KT Rolster buying some high-end computers recently. Any thoughts of how the incredibly well-trained hands of BW A-team professionals will affect balance, if at all (assuming they do switch over)? Couple of things that come to mind to me are Blink, Phoenixes, Injections, multipronged drops, and pickup micro. Not entirely sure if any of them will become imbalanced, but they should get a lot stronger with top-class control and multitasking.
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On November 27 2011 14:24 Ziggitz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2011 14:03 poorcloud wrote:On November 27 2011 13:59 Ziggitz wrote:On November 27 2011 13:47 cive wrote:On November 27 2011 13:04 kappadevin wrote:
Missing an Inject is more punishing than missing a MULE, but that isn't really a balance related issue. At the highest level neither player should be missing either. In a similar way, missing an SCV cycle is more punishing than letting an extra larva spawn before making two drones at once. You can't say that larvae inject is more punishing than MULE because they are different variables. MULE is a gatherer and a product while larvae inject is increasing the production capacity. The consequence of missing an larvae inject is just more visible and obvious than missing a MULE drop. If larvae inject worries people, there are many solutions. One that I use (because I miss injects lol) is getting a macro hatch pre-lair. Missing a MULE drop is pretty much not an issue in the slightest unless you've missed several in row or you're going pure production into an all in with no non unit production costs like upgrades or tech. If you miss a MULE and then drop two at once, then you've still mined the same amount of minerals and your tech is primarily limited by gas. A lot of the time you can miss MULEs with zero consequences. Well, if i was a zerg player, i can also get supply blocked with no consequences since i can just store up larva and then build drones, while protoss and terran miss out on scvs + production when they get supply blocked. Every race have their own unique mechanics i suppose. Not even close to accurate. After Terran and Protoss get enough workers to constantly produce workers from their main structure(i.e. when the game clock hits zero seconds) Their worker production is constant minus the build time of the orbital and taking chrono boosts into account. Meanwhile Zerg can and has to produce workers with as many of their larvae as they can get away with. This also means if you use all 10 larvae per minute on drones from a hatch with a queen, you can spend 500 minerals per minute on drones, which in the early game with 2 hatches and queens means up to 1000 minerals per minute, i.e. all of your early game economy if you can get away with it. Because of this you produce drones to mine minerals to make more drones meaning that any delay at an early stage of drone production has an exponential effect on your economy. Zerg are affected the most by early supply blocks. Even more so if they are a queen short whilst supply blocked as the hatchery that needs that queen will be running at less than half production capacity.
But don't the same logic work for terran and protoss?
If i miss a mule, it means i may get less money at this point of time --> unable to put down production facilties on time --> overcompensate on production facilities --> lost money?
And if terran and zerg has both 15 drones and both get supply blocked for a min.
Terran can only produce 1 scv onwards after that while zerg can produce 10 after that. Zerg will thus get more exponentially ahead. I think your just looking at how bad it is to get supply blocked as zerg and deciding on its opportunity costs when you fail to realise that it is even more crucial for other races to not get supply blocked.
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On November 27 2011 15:07 Acritter wrote:
I guess I'll bring up a new topic. I'm sure all of you have heard of KT Rolster buying some high-end computers recently. Any thoughts of how the incredibly well-trained hands of BW A-team professionals will affect balance, if at all (assuming they do switch over)? Couple of things that come to mind to me are Blink, Phoenixes, Injections, multipronged drops, and pickup micro. Not entirely sure if any of them will become imbalanced, but they should get a lot stronger with top-class control and multitasking.
For one, we may see near 0 energy nexuses. We see so many unused chronoboosts in our top protoss players, even hero constantly has 1 or 2 nexi full of energy in dreamhack during his late game, which he can be using to chronoboost ourt colossi/gateways/upgrades non-stop.
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Dunno if this has been brought up but I really think its stupid that high templars can feedback Thors and especially bc´s.
I understand that carriers suck but that doesnt mean that bc´s have to suck as well and right now they do and mainly because of feedback.
I hate the fact that 1 small bio unit can instantly take 50% off a bc´s health. It makes absolutely no sense to me.
I play zerg myself so I dont talk from personal experience but I watch A LOT of streams and tournaments and whenever a terran switches to bc´s he loses cause of feedback.
What I would like is for the yamato cannon to come on a cooldown (maybe 1 min?) and ofc to see the energy bar removed from bc´s.
This will in no way break TvP. Blink stalkers are still excellent against bc´s and they are not immune to storms either.
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On November 27 2011 15:40 DaCruise wrote:
Dunno if this has been brought up but I really think its stupid that high templars can feedback Thors and especially bc´s.
I understand that carriers suck but that doesnt mean that bc´s have to suck as well and right now they do and mainly because of feedback.
I hate the fact that 1 small bio unit can instantly take 50% off a bc´s health. It makes absolutely no sense to me.
I play zerg myself so I dont talk from personal experience but I watch A LOT of streams and tournaments and whenever a terran switches to bc´s he loses cause of feedback.
What I would like is for the yamato cannon to come on a cooldown (maybe 1 min?) and ofc to see the energy bar removed from bc´s.
This will in no way break TvP. Blink stalkers are still excellent against bc´s and they are not immune to storms either.
Blink stalkers lose there viability once you get like 6-10 BCs and a couple ravens. Void rays are the true destructor of BCs (other than feedback, of course).
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neural parasite is useless, i think blizzard should remove it. the whole point of the ability is for infestors to capture colossus or tanks or thor, but when oyu get outranged and gets 3/4 shot by most terran/protoss units, neural parasite is quite useless.
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On November 27 2011 13:58 poorcloud wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2011 13:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 27 2011 13:33 SolidMoose wrote:On November 27 2011 13:25 happyness wrote:On November 17 2011 13:08 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 17 2011 12:52 Snowen wrote:On November 10 2011 02:19 Acritter wrote:On November 09 2011 23:11 Thrombozyt wrote:
Stargate->Hydro->colossus->spire is exactly such an exchange starting from a FFE or 1gate FE.
In TvZ you have: marines->ling speed->hellions->muta
In TvP you often have: Stalkers->concussive->some limbo depending on army size, senties and stim->medivacs->HT/colossus->ghost/viking
One tech is forcing out the other and forces the player catching up from the map until he can come out back again.. I know the BW dynamics, I just don't see why what I described is different. There are a few issues. Stargate doesn't actually force Hydras. Zerg can go for Queens and Spores and do just fine teching up to Infestors. I will admit it's one of the better examples, as Hydralisks that aren't defended properly are quite dangerous and their presence forces Protoss into fast Colossi. However, TvZ is far less balanced in terms of that. There are very few things Zerg can do that really forces a specific response from Terran. Terran can get into a comfortable midgame without building a single Hellion if they choose, and Zergling speed doesn't stop them from getting Banshees. Mutalisks force a couple of Turrets, but don't alter the core army composition of Marine/Tank in the slightest. There's no timing pressure the Zerg can use to force the Terran to be honest or to make a certain choice. TvP is even worse. Protoss literally cannot touch Terran in the early game. Your idea that Stalkers force Concussive is laughable. If that were true, we wouldn't have the 1-1-1. Terran has completely free reign to choose a variety of openings, such as gasless FE, 1rax Conc FE, 2rax pressure FE, 3rax pressure, or the 1-1-1. There's even a 1-1-1 expand build and a 2-1 Marine Tank pressure with Stim and Siege. The only "forcing" Protoss can do is to prevent fast cloaked Banshees by stealing gas. On the other hand, Terran can force tech paths out of Protoss that end up not allowing the Protoss to do anything back. So you have Immortals? Great, I already have the counter out. There's no balance in each player forcing responses. Terran dictates the whole game, with the only influence Protoss having is choosing between Templar and Robo tech, which ultimately doesn't change the Terran gameplan whatsoever. It just determines whether they'll have more Medivacs or Marauders. In order for this balance to exist, both players need to be able to force decisions on one another. They need to be able to punish players for some decisions, and keep the game stable. Right now, there's a huge imbalance in favor of Terran, because so many Terran options are available with so little deviation from the norm. Protoss and Zerg have to deviate in order to produce counter units. The most Terran has to do is switch add-ons or build a Ghost Academy. Terran needs to be made a much more fragile race for balance to exist. This is an excellent post.. I totally agree. You do realise Terran HAS TO dictate the game. Otherwise if the Toss is left in his base to max out, it is VERY difficult for a Terran to deal with this. If I were a toss player, I wouldn't be complaining the fact all I need to do is stay in my base all game and max out. Terran is the one who has to take initiative and make something happen. Because if he doesn't, hes pretty much screwed. I think it's a pretty big myth that the maxed out army of protoss is greater than the maxed out army of terran. If anything the terran army is stronger, if the terran knows how to control ghosts. The same can be said about protoss controlling HT's, except there's generally more to control for Terran to not get completely fucked over. The whole matchup would be much better if tanks were viable lategame, because then a lategame terran army might win with some AoE. But as it is now Terran has to do something before the Colossus/Archon/HT death army gets too big. Probably why so many Terrans are doing all ins (including MVP) PvT is right now favoring protoss, and if that doesn't change I'd like to either see a compromised EMP nerf (1.7-1.8 radius) or removing one of the two archon buffs (massive or 3 range). But all this may become obsolete once HOTS hits Out of curiosity, what makes you think that PvT is favoring Protoss? When did that happen? It's been favoring Terran for nearly the entire existence of SC2, according to each month's data. Both late game armies can certainly go toe-to-toe with one another, depending on unit composition... and if it comes down to having good control over their units (including spellcasters), you see blanket EMPs win the game far more often than blanket storms. Also, I think that making EMP's radius the same size as psi storm's (don't forget that psi storm got that reduced radius nerf first and Protoss learned to live with it) is the least that could happen... ghosts still have longer range, don't forget. Its only been favouring the korean terrans because frankly, they are the best mechanically + innovate bunch due to how many good korean terrans there are to innovate and try out. Now that protosses have created good builds to counter, we start seeing protoss take charge of this matchup. Heck look at dreamhack/MLG, all the foreign terrans bombed out like nothing. We only see the korean terrans make it to the late rounds.
Protosses started to do a lot better after they realised how hard it is for terran to counter both colossus and twilight tech in lategame. Imo at this point PvT was kinda balanced, but when the emp nerf and toss upgrade buff hit, the whole matchup changed. I think the biggest factor was not the emp nerf or upgrade cost reduce, but the fact that protosses realised how insane the double upgrades are, especially while getting them well before a double upgrading terran (chronoboost). Recent TvP results are really sad. Its starting to look like going into lategame with MMMVG makes no sense whatsoever. My prediction is that we are going to see a lot of 1/1/1 in near future since bio is starting to look less attractive and mech never worked too well in the matchup.
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On November 27 2011 15:40 DaCruise wrote:
Dunno if this has been brought up but I really think its stupid that high templars can feedback Thors and especially bc´s.
I understand that carriers suck but that doesnt mean that bc´s have to suck as well and right now they do and mainly because of feedback.
I hate the fact that 1 small bio unit can instantly take 50% off a bc´s health. It makes absolutely no sense to me.
I play zerg myself so I dont talk from personal experience but I watch A LOT of streams and tournaments and whenever a terran switches to bc´s he loses cause of feedback.
What I would like is for the yamato cannon to come on a cooldown (maybe 1 min?) and ofc to see the energy bar removed from bc´s.
This will in no way break TvP. Blink stalkers are still excellent against bc´s and they are not immune to storms either.
Did you know that Stalkers alone are NOT cost efficient against Battlecruisers?
1 BC (400/300) can kill 4 stalkers (500/200) regardless of upgrades (3/3 BC kills 4 3/3/3 stalkers).
1 BC with Yamato can kill 5 stalkers (625/250).
And I didn't even factor in a random Raven for PDD or 10 SCVs to repair.
Feedback let stalkers be cost efficient against BCs.
Just for the sake of comparison, did you know that Marines ARE cost efficient against Carriers?
8 3/3 marines (400/0) can kill 1 3/3/3 full carrier (450/250)
I agree that TvP is hard for Terran, but believe me, BCs are not a Terran weakness...
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On November 27 2011 15:52 Entteri wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2011 13:58 poorcloud wrote:On November 27 2011 13:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 27 2011 13:33 SolidMoose wrote:On November 27 2011 13:25 happyness wrote:On November 17 2011 13:08 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 17 2011 12:52 Snowen wrote:On November 10 2011 02:19 Acritter wrote:On November 09 2011 23:11 Thrombozyt wrote:
Stargate->Hydro->colossus->spire is exactly such an exchange starting from a FFE or 1gate FE.
In TvZ you have: marines->ling speed->hellions->muta
In TvP you often have: Stalkers->concussive->some limbo depending on army size, senties and stim->medivacs->HT/colossus->ghost/viking
One tech is forcing out the other and forces the player catching up from the map until he can come out back again.. I know the BW dynamics, I just don't see why what I described is different. There are a few issues. Stargate doesn't actually force Hydras. Zerg can go for Queens and Spores and do just fine teching up to Infestors. I will admit it's one of the better examples, as Hydralisks that aren't defended properly are quite dangerous and their presence forces Protoss into fast Colossi. However, TvZ is far less balanced in terms of that. There are very few things Zerg can do that really forces a specific response from Terran. Terran can get into a comfortable midgame without building a single Hellion if they choose, and Zergling speed doesn't stop them from getting Banshees. Mutalisks force a couple of Turrets, but don't alter the core army composition of Marine/Tank in the slightest. There's no timing pressure the Zerg can use to force the Terran to be honest or to make a certain choice. TvP is even worse. Protoss literally cannot touch Terran in the early game. Your idea that Stalkers force Concussive is laughable. If that were true, we wouldn't have the 1-1-1. Terran has completely free reign to choose a variety of openings, such as gasless FE, 1rax Conc FE, 2rax pressure FE, 3rax pressure, or the 1-1-1. There's even a 1-1-1 expand build and a 2-1 Marine Tank pressure with Stim and Siege. The only "forcing" Protoss can do is to prevent fast cloaked Banshees by stealing gas. On the other hand, Terran can force tech paths out of Protoss that end up not allowing the Protoss to do anything back. So you have Immortals? Great, I already have the counter out. There's no balance in each player forcing responses. Terran dictates the whole game, with the only influence Protoss having is choosing between Templar and Robo tech, which ultimately doesn't change the Terran gameplan whatsoever. It just determines whether they'll have more Medivacs or Marauders. In order for this balance to exist, both players need to be able to force decisions on one another. They need to be able to punish players for some decisions, and keep the game stable. Right now, there's a huge imbalance in favor of Terran, because so many Terran options are available with so little deviation from the norm. Protoss and Zerg have to deviate in order to produce counter units. The most Terran has to do is switch add-ons or build a Ghost Academy. Terran needs to be made a much more fragile race for balance to exist. This is an excellent post.. I totally agree. You do realise Terran HAS TO dictate the game. Otherwise if the Toss is left in his base to max out, it is VERY difficult for a Terran to deal with this. If I were a toss player, I wouldn't be complaining the fact all I need to do is stay in my base all game and max out. Terran is the one who has to take initiative and make something happen. Because if he doesn't, hes pretty much screwed. I think it's a pretty big myth that the maxed out army of protoss is greater than the maxed out army of terran. If anything the terran army is stronger, if the terran knows how to control ghosts. The same can be said about protoss controlling HT's, except there's generally more to control for Terran to not get completely fucked over. The whole matchup would be much better if tanks were viable lategame, because then a lategame terran army might win with some AoE. But as it is now Terran has to do something before the Colossus/Archon/HT death army gets too big. Probably why so many Terrans are doing all ins (including MVP) PvT is right now favoring protoss, and if that doesn't change I'd like to either see a compromised EMP nerf (1.7-1.8 radius) or removing one of the two archon buffs (massive or 3 range). But all this may become obsolete once HOTS hits Out of curiosity, what makes you think that PvT is favoring Protoss? When did that happen? It's been favoring Terran for nearly the entire existence of SC2, according to each month's data. Both late game armies can certainly go toe-to-toe with one another, depending on unit composition... and if it comes down to having good control over their units (including spellcasters), you see blanket EMPs win the game far more often than blanket storms. Also, I think that making EMP's radius the same size as psi storm's (don't forget that psi storm got that reduced radius nerf first and Protoss learned to live with it) is the least that could happen... ghosts still have longer range, don't forget. Its only been favouring the korean terrans because frankly, they are the best mechanically + innovate bunch due to how many good korean terrans there are to innovate and try out. Now that protosses have created good builds to counter, we start seeing protoss take charge of this matchup. Heck look at dreamhack/MLG, all the foreign terrans bombed out like nothing. We only see the korean terrans make it to the late rounds. Protosses started to do a lot better after they realised how hard it is for terran to counter both colossus and twilight tech in lategame. Imo at this point PvT was kinda balanced, but when the emp nerf and toss upgrade buff hit, the whole matchup changed. I think the biggest factor was not the emp nerf or upgrade cost reduce, but the fact that protosses realised how insane the double upgrades are, especially while getting them well before a double upgrading terran (chronoboost). Recent TvP results are really sad. Its starting to look like going into lategame with MMMVG makes no sense whatsoever. My prediction is that we are going to see a lot of 1/1/1 in near future since bio is starting to look less attractive and mech never worked too well in the matchup.
Are you talking about 1/1/1 as an all in, or 1/1/1 turned into a macro build as in marines, tanks, and banshees + a raven?
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I'm Terran, and this buff on the upgrade cost for Protoss really intrigued me. First, let me show you the effects of each +1 upgrade on each Terran and Protoss ground unit:
TERRAN
+ Show Spoiler [BIO] +- Marine: +1 damage (+16%)
- Marauder: +1 damage (+10%/+5% vs armored)
- Reaper (pistols): +1 damage (x2) (+25%/+12% vs light)
- Reaper (grenade): +3 vs buildings (+10% vs buildings)
- Ghost: +1 damage (+10%/+5% vs light)
- Hellion: +1 damage (+12%/+9% vs light)
- Tank: +2 damage (+13%/+8% vs armored)
- Tank (sieged): +3 damage (+8%/+6% vs armored)
- Thor (ground): +3 damage (x2) (+10%)
- Thor (air): +1 damage (x4) (+16%)
PROTOSS
+ Show Spoiler +- Zealot: +1 damage (x2) (+12%)
- Stalker: +1 damage (+10%/+7% vs armored)
- Sentry: +1 damage (+16%)
- Dark Templar: +5 damage (+11%)
- Archon: +3 damage (+12%)
- Immortal: +3 damage (+15%/+6% vs armored)
- Colossus: +2 damage (x2) (+13%)
Let's have a look on the costs to get a +2 upgrade (TvP). I'll assume already built Gateway and Barracks:
+ Show Spoiler [TERRAN - Bio] +- Engineering Bay: 125/0/-
- +1 Infantry Weapons: 100/100/70s
- Factory: 150/100/-
- Armory: 150/100/-
- +2 Infantry Weapons: 175/175/190s
TOTAL: 700/475/260s (4min 20sec)I didn't count the EBay, Factory and armory build time because the wait for +1 attack is greater, thus I reduced it accordingly. - Factory: 150/100/60s
- Armory: 150/100/65s
- +1 Vehicle Weapons: 100/100/160s
- +2 Vehicle Weapons: 175/175/190s
TOTAL: 575/475/475s (7min 55sec)- Forge: 150/0/-
- +1 Ground Weapons: 100/100/95s
- Cybernetics Core: 150/0/-
- Twilight Council: 150/100/-
- +2 Ground Weapons: 150/150/190s
TOTAL: 700/350/285s (4min 45sec)I didn't count all the Forge, CyCore and Council because the wait for the +1 is greater, thus I reduced it accordingly. Also, I didn't use Chrono Boost.
Also, keep in mind that these times are utopic, and do not reflect how it is in game, since it depends on many, many variables. But what can we see from this?
- A +1 attack costs: Mech > Protoss > Bio.
- A +2 attack costs more gas to Terran, either if he goes Bio or Mech.
- A +1 mech attack comes too late, if the Protoss isn't sloppy with his upgrades. Theoretically, at the same time Protoss' +2 finishes.
Since going Bio isn't gas heavy, it feels OK to expend 125 more gas on upgrades - but it hurts a lot when you go Mech. Also you need to wait until Armory to get your +1. This delay keeps Terran from using it against Protoss, since he cannot keep up on upgrades if his opponent decides to rush them - specially with Chrono Boost. But this is just one of the things against Mech in TvP.
Another factor is that he cannot reinforce just as quickly. Terran needs production capability as the Protoss needs Gateways (if he goes pure mech), which means Factories, Tech Labs and Reactors. This means he needs tons of gas to build structures and more gas to build units. He also needs Planetary Fortresses, which is gas heavy too! All this can be countered by pure Zealots with Charge, which doesn't cost gas at all - neither does the Gateway (I'm not saying it should!).
But this is only one of the anti-mech units/abilities Protoss have. Aside this, they've got blink, feedback, hardened shields, graviton beams...
The point I'm trying to make is: Mech is used almost only in TvT. It may appear sometimes in TvZ (and wasn't very effective, until now - but I admit I haven't seen it with a good air support), but never (even Goody stopped using it in this match up) in TvP.
Since going Mech is already a gas heavy investment, with a huge delay to get your +1, shouldn't the Mech upgrades cost less gas and/or time?
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On November 27 2011 16:01 Die4Ever wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2011 15:52 Entteri wrote:On November 27 2011 13:58 poorcloud wrote:On November 27 2011 13:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 27 2011 13:33 SolidMoose wrote:On November 27 2011 13:25 happyness wrote:On November 17 2011 13:08 ZorBa.G wrote:On November 17 2011 12:52 Snowen wrote:On November 10 2011 02:19 Acritter wrote:On November 09 2011 23:11 Thrombozyt wrote:
Stargate->Hydro->colossus->spire is exactly such an exchange starting from a FFE or 1gate FE.
In TvZ you have: marines->ling speed->hellions->muta
In TvP you often have: Stalkers->concussive->some limbo depending on army size, senties and stim->medivacs->HT/colossus->ghost/viking
One tech is forcing out the other and forces the player catching up from the map until he can come out back again.. I know the BW dynamics, I just don't see why what I described is different. There are a few issues. Stargate doesn't actually force Hydras. Zerg can go for Queens and Spores and do just fine teching up to Infestors. I will admit it's one of the better examples, as Hydralisks that aren't defended properly are quite dangerous and their presence forces Protoss into fast Colossi. However, TvZ is far less balanced in terms of that. There are very few things Zerg can do that really forces a specific response from Terran. Terran can get into a comfortable midgame without building a single Hellion if they choose, and Zergling speed doesn't stop them from getting Banshees. Mutalisks force a couple of Turrets, but don't alter the core army composition of Marine/Tank in the slightest. There's no timing pressure the Zerg can use to force the Terran to be honest or to make a certain choice. TvP is even worse. Protoss literally cannot touch Terran in the early game. Your idea that Stalkers force Concussive is laughable. If that were true, we wouldn't have the 1-1-1. Terran has completely free reign to choose a variety of openings, such as gasless FE, 1rax Conc FE, 2rax pressure FE, 3rax pressure, or the 1-1-1. There's even a 1-1-1 expand build and a 2-1 Marine Tank pressure with Stim and Siege. The only "forcing" Protoss can do is to prevent fast cloaked Banshees by stealing gas. On the other hand, Terran can force tech paths out of Protoss that end up not allowing the Protoss to do anything back. So you have Immortals? Great, I already have the counter out. There's no balance in each player forcing responses. Terran dictates the whole game, with the only influence Protoss having is choosing between Templar and Robo tech, which ultimately doesn't change the Terran gameplan whatsoever. It just determines whether they'll have more Medivacs or Marauders. In order for this balance to exist, both players need to be able to force decisions on one another. They need to be able to punish players for some decisions, and keep the game stable. Right now, there's a huge imbalance in favor of Terran, because so many Terran options are available with so little deviation from the norm. Protoss and Zerg have to deviate in order to produce counter units. The most Terran has to do is switch add-ons or build a Ghost Academy. Terran needs to be made a much more fragile race for balance to exist. This is an excellent post.. I totally agree. You do realise Terran HAS TO dictate the game. Otherwise if the Toss is left in his base to max out, it is VERY difficult for a Terran to deal with this. If I were a toss player, I wouldn't be complaining the fact all I need to do is stay in my base all game and max out. Terran is the one who has to take initiative and make something happen. Because if he doesn't, hes pretty much screwed. I think it's a pretty big myth that the maxed out army of protoss is greater than the maxed out army of terran. If anything the terran army is stronger, if the terran knows how to control ghosts. The same can be said about protoss controlling HT's, except there's generally more to control for Terran to not get completely fucked over. The whole matchup would be much better if tanks were viable lategame, because then a lategame terran army might win with some AoE. But as it is now Terran has to do something before the Colossus/Archon/HT death army gets too big. Probably why so many Terrans are doing all ins (including MVP) PvT is right now favoring protoss, and if that doesn't change I'd like to either see a compromised EMP nerf (1.7-1.8 radius) or removing one of the two archon buffs (massive or 3 range). But all this may become obsolete once HOTS hits Out of curiosity, what makes you think that PvT is favoring Protoss? When did that happen? It's been favoring Terran for nearly the entire existence of SC2, according to each month's data. Both late game armies can certainly go toe-to-toe with one another, depending on unit composition... and if it comes down to having good control over their units (including spellcasters), you see blanket EMPs win the game far more often than blanket storms. Also, I think that making EMP's radius the same size as psi storm's (don't forget that psi storm got that reduced radius nerf first and Protoss learned to live with it) is the least that could happen... ghosts still have longer range, don't forget. Its only been favouring the korean terrans because frankly, they are the best mechanically + innovate bunch due to how many good korean terrans there are to innovate and try out. Now that protosses have created good builds to counter, we start seeing protoss take charge of this matchup. Heck look at dreamhack/MLG, all the foreign terrans bombed out like nothing. We only see the korean terrans make it to the late rounds. Protosses started to do a lot better after they realised how hard it is for terran to counter both colossus and twilight tech in lategame. Imo at this point PvT was kinda balanced, but when the emp nerf and toss upgrade buff hit, the whole matchup changed. I think the biggest factor was not the emp nerf or upgrade cost reduce, but the fact that protosses realised how insane the double upgrades are, especially while getting them well before a double upgrading terran (chronoboost). Recent TvP results are really sad. Its starting to look like going into lategame with MMMVG makes no sense whatsoever. My prediction is that we are going to see a lot of 1/1/1 in near future since bio is starting to look less attractive and mech never worked too well in the matchup. Are you talking about 1/1/1 as an all in, or 1/1/1 turned into a macro build as in marines, tanks, and banshees + a raven?
As all in mostly, why not as macro build too, but I'm having hard time seeing that as viable unit comp in any game that goes on beyond 2 base allin timing (3 different upgrades, weak bio without medivac support and so on)
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EPT
